France Took One Look At Facebook's Cryptocurrency and Said, 'Hell, Non' (vice.com) 94
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Motherboard: Facebook's plan to revolutionize the global economy with its version of bitcoin hit another snag this week when the French finance minister said the country would block the Libra cryptocurrency if it launches as planned in 2020. Libra, which is scheduled to launch in the second half of next year, is designed to be a fast and easy way for people to transfer money around the world, using the company's Messenger and WhatsApp services. Bruno Le Maire, speaking at a cryptocurrency conference organized by the Organization for Economic Development (OECD) on Thursday, didn't mince words when it came to the threat posed by Libra to the stability of the French economy by undermining the influence of the euro.
"The monetary sovereignty of countries is at stake [from] possible privatization of money by a sole actor with more than 2 billion users on the planet," he said. Le Maire said that during times of economic crisis, citizens may abandon national currencies in favor of Libra, making it very difficult for governments to manage the economy. "All these concerns around Libra are serious. So I want to say this with a lot of clarity: In these conditions, we cannot authorize the development of Libra on European soil," Le Maire added.
"The monetary sovereignty of countries is at stake [from] possible privatization of money by a sole actor with more than 2 billion users on the planet," he said. Le Maire said that during times of economic crisis, citizens may abandon national currencies in favor of Libra, making it very difficult for governments to manage the economy. "All these concerns around Libra are serious. So I want to say this with a lot of clarity: In these conditions, we cannot authorize the development of Libra on European soil," Le Maire added.
If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously. If people put their faith into a currency managed by a for-profit organization that doesn't even have to pretend it gives a fuck about them (unlike governments, that at least have to try to keep up the show that they're working for the people voting them in), they deserve what they get.
How stupid can people be?
Re:If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:5, Interesting)
Are you that stupid or are you just trolling? Do you really think that a corporation controlling your finances is superior to a government supervision of finances?
Re: If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
You might not notice it, but you don't get a choice. You will only be allowed to use as currency what some organization gives you to use as such. And there I prefer an organization that should at least have my interest in mind compared to one that doesn't even pretend to.
Re: (Score:3)
Next up, the 'choice' to be paid in scrip spendable only at the company store.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:5, Informative)
For example, in 1912, Germany had a very stable currency & fiscal system. Ten years later you could leave a wheelbarrow full of money on the side of the road, and people would steal the wheelbarrow & dump the cash.
Yeah, because World War One in 1914-1918 literally destroyed a lot of their economy, and when they lost the winners forced them to pay massive reparations and basically made sure that their economy failed as hard as possible.
That's an important lesson from history that everyone should know. It ultimately lead to populism and the rise of fascism and another world war.
Re: (Score:1)
Venezuela (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There is no guarantee of fairness, but remember, Zuck has shown that his priority is his money. I suspect his vision would end up turning out like Venezuela, just a different philosophy. Oligarchy doesn't breed good investments for anyone but the oligarchs.
Re: (Score:2)
Giving corporations the control over what money can be used and where has been tried, too. The result was scrip and the company store.
Re: (Score:2)
As for the issue of money, even defunct issuers like private mints often vastly outperformed any government for store of value across time. e.g. California 1850s mints that preceded the Treasury's San Francisco mint - their face value retained is more t
Re: (Score:2)
Uh, you do realize that a lot of central banks or issuers are corporations with varied degrees of private interests, right? Consider the four private banks that issued Hong Kong dollars, perhaps "our" Federal Reserve, or the Bank of European Settlements.
So I have a bank I started. Completely private. Give me your money, because as a private one person ownership, it's obvious that I am the most honest form of business ever. I don't even report money to the corrupt forces of government.
Re: (Score:3)
Are you that stupid or are you just trolling? Do you really think that a corporation controlling your finances is superior to a government supervision of finances?
Amazingly enough, Some free market droids do. Even if a corporation was somehow honest (study Enron and see just how evil they can be) Governments at least have some sort of concept of serving citizens, not just the shareholders.
Re: (Score:2)
... Governments at least have some sort of concept of serving citizens, not just the shareholders.
Governments serve only the citizens which control the government and in the case of the US, those are *not* the voters.
Re: If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:2)
Corporate employees are usually easier to track down and execute than govt ones.
Re: (Score:2)
At least the corporation lacks a monopoly on the use of force against me.
Re:If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:5, Funny)
That's right AC, true freedom is starving because your Libra investments don't transfer into AmazonBucks and Zuckerberg didn't buy up any grocery chains. Neither one of those is exchangeable for DisneyDollars, naturally.
Yep, the true freedom of hundreds of made up currencies that don't have a real value, can't be exchanged and that you can't even claim to own because of that license you agreed to so they could be taken away at any moment.. yup.. freedumb.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sure someone will set up an exchange for private currencies and people will need a way to convert values to a single denominator to understand the value of a random currency.
The benefit of private currencies is that they aren't controlled by government which can make currencies unstable by fiat. If you have a private, decentralized currency, the company has only one goal: profit. China right now is devaluing it's currency on the world market which is pretty bad for its populace, the US is one election a
Re:If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:4, Interesting)
But you are just guessing/hoping. And if they do, it will be for THEIR best interests, not yours.
If you have a private, decentralized currency,
Pick one. You can't have a private entity control it AND it be decentralized out of their control. It wouldn't be private... it would be just another altcoin.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:4, Insightful)
" made up currencies that don't have a real value"
How do the pieces of paper in my wallet have any "real" value? I can't eat them, they don't keep me warm when it's cold, I can't wear them.... The only value they have is because other people agree they have value.
Re: (Score:3)
Because governments lay claim to anywhere between one and two thirds of the value of your labor in the form of taxes that must be paid in the form of those pieces of paper, and are gigantic market participants that only pay for things in the form of those pieces of paper, and at lest in the former
Re: (Score:2)
"By your measure, gold doesn't have any real value either. You can't "eat" it, it doesn't keep you warm when it's cold, and you can't wear it. The only value it has is because other people agree it has value."
Correct. It's a chemical element with 79 electrons. So what?
Re: (Score:2)
Yep, the true freedom of hundreds of made up currencies that don't have a real value, can't be exchanged and that you can't even claim to own because of that license you agreed to so they could be taken away at any moment.. yup.. freedumb.
US dollars meet all of the requirements you listed. They have no intrinsic value, may only be exchanged with permission, and may be seized through civil assets forfeiture at any time.
Re: If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
There is a big difference between FaceBook and a socialist government: you can walk away from FaceBook and go somewhere else pretty much at the click of a button.
If in some future dystopia governments were corporations and vice versa, you would be able to choose at the click of a button which country you belonged to. Want free health care, free income and 60% tax rate, click on FaceBook; want to make money buying/selling stuff with minimal interference click EBay;
Re: If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Then Facebook goes to war with Ebay...
Corporations: Socialism plus choice (Score:2)
There are two main forms of collective ownership. I participate in one, and try to avoid the other.
Socialists with tell you that socialism is when individuals control the means of production, things like factories and data centers. Your tax money is used to build ships, buy cigarette-filling machines, and build out semiconductor fabs, then you collectively own them.
Corporations are when you can *decide* whether you want to use your money to collectively own a fab, or a farm, or an ice-cream plant. Rather
Re: (Score:2)
There I thought you were going to bring up co-ops, worker owned companies or even credit unions as forms of successful socialism without big brother. Instead it is owning a piece of Facebook without voting rights and having big brother.
Facebook is a worker-owned company (Score:2)
Credit unions are good too. Also several large insurance companies are customer owned. These are called mutual insurance companies.
Other than very limited situations, co-ops haven't had much success without a government forcing people to give them money, and forcing people to participate. People don't often do them voluntarily, because they don't like being part of a co-op and they don't like doing business with a co-op. They are available in some areas.
One thing that can be a really bad idea is putting
Re: (Score:2)
Corporations are everything you fear about socialism, with none of the up side including accountability and democracy, or guaranteed income or standard of living.
No, corporations are not everything one could fear about a government. They do not claim a monopoly on the use of force and they do not require the sanction of their victims. At least when a corporation comes to kill me, they do not argue that it is for my own good. Criminals are more honest than governments.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:2)
Lehman Brothers circa 2007 would issue a solid currency.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
That, of course, is a part of the problem.
Another part of the problem is that organizations are, over time, only as reliable as they feel they need to be. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about governments, corporations, or religions.
This stupid: monetary sovereignty of countries (Score:1)
"How stupid can people be", how ask.
The French Finance Minister said:
"The monetary sovereignty of countries is at stake" if people had alternatives the the Euro. The sovereignty of countries. He's claiming that he wants to proetct his country's (France) ability to control their own money, the *Euro*.
He using national sovereignty to argue *for* the Euro. That's pretty damn stupid. And he's the finance minister. Who apparently doesn't know what the Euro is. People can be pretty stupid.
Re: This stupid: monetary sovereignty of countrie (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Facebook does have to pretend it gives a fuck about its users. It paid for adverts, physical real-world adverts on billboards and screens in shopping centres, to put that message out after the Cambridge Analytica scandal and when evidence of the brexit/US election abuse came out.
I think Facebook is in a more precarious position than you imagine. Slightly, anyway. Which is good news for people like us who dislike Facebook.
Re: (Score:2)
Facebook does have to pretend it gives a fuck about its users. It paid for adverts, physical real-world adverts on billboards and screens in shopping centres, to put that message out after the Cambridge Analytica scandal and when evidence of the brexit/US election abuse came out.
I think Facebook is in a more precarious position than you imagine. Slightly, anyway. Which is good news for people like us who dislike Facebook.
I deleted my Facebook account after I realized it was no longer a "game," platform where people kept in touch and stuff and shared cat videos.
The real problem I have with Facebook is that people take it seriously.
The globe needs a Facebook revolution.
#deletefacebook
Re: (Score:2)
The main thing that puzzles me about Facebook is that people write there honestly. But hey, as long as people think that people do that, everyone will continue to think that I'm Bruce Schneier's best buddy and that turned down holding the keynote at the last BlackHat because I was too busy.
Facebook is a marketing tool. Use it accordingly.
Re: If people are this stupid, they deserve it (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Seriously. If people put their faith into a currency managed by a for-profit organization that doesn't even have to pretend it gives a fuck about them (unlike governments, that at least have to try to keep up the show that they're working for the people voting them in), they deserve what they get.
How stupid can people be?
People can be pretty stupid. One of the most idiotic financial mentally challenged ideas was the activity that led to the 2008 meltdown. Anyone with a bog standard understanding of math could have seen that coming.
So yeah - I can see a lot of people signing up for Oligarch Zuckerberg's Craptocurrency.
Re: (Score:2)
Loans for everyone? How could that go wrong?
Re: (Score:2)
As a person of science - when you have infinity as the base of your equation, you know there is something wrong with the model.
And yeah - givin
Re: (Score:1)
How stupid can people be?
Heh, look around.
Re: (Score:3)
It isn't that simple, unfortunately.
For years and years, I avoided Facebook like the plague. Then came a time when I needed it to get the word out about a Kickstarter campaign. And as soon as my friends discovered that I'm on FB, I got invited to events I never knew about before. Well, not the closest friends, but the wider social circle. Many people these days don't even bother to send you a text anymore. If they can't invite you on FB, you don't exist.
The same could happen with a currency. You, me and a c
Re: (Score:2)
Many people these days don't even bother to send you a text anymore. If they can't invite you on FB, you don't exist.
For that kind of people, I quite gladly don't exist.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm curious: Can anyone confirm or dispute here whether WeChat has become so ingrained in daily life in China that it is hard to operate life without it?
Re: (Score:2)
Can't say about WeChat, but I do know that in some parts of Africa, if you don't have M-Pesa [wikipedia.org], your life will be difficult.
Re: (Score:2)
*shrug* That happened with texting too. I didn't have text, and so rapidly fell out of the loop. Didn't have LJ either, so I was out of the loop there too. When I didn't have a cell phone, people were amazed I wasn't available 24/7/365.
In this particular instance, FB isn't a unique "villain" - it's just the latest in a long line of such.
Re: (Score:2)
Honestly, as soon as I heard that Facebook wanted to launch a currency, I immediately pictured a Mad Magazine like counterfeit bill reading "in Zuck' we trust", then nearly split my sides laughing.
Re: Money honey (Score:5, Insightful)
Dystopian future (Score:2)
People are perfectly happy with this dystopian future. People have already given ALL of their personal information to one or two giant companies that are quickly taking over the world. It's already happening.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
and donate a kidney or liver to Zuckerberg to eat.
Does Zukerberg even like eating kidney or liver?
Re: (Score:2)
There is nothing of inherent value regardless, it's all perceived value and has always been so, even when it was trading chickens for some potatoes.
At least governments don't have a need to return a profit on their currency and if it's manipulated it's in a fashion that stabilizes and serves the interests of the populace rather than some faceless investment group. We own our currency, it's not licensed to us. Our currency is valid for any and all debts, not just among the corporate structure of Facebook a
Re: Money honey (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Money honey (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
France is so pro-EU that the only currency they would like to see is the Euro.
Re: (Score:3)
This, from France? (Score:2)
I'm not sure that they are the best ones to take advise from on economics given their unemployment rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
As they say in investments, "diversify". Having more options is almost always a good thing, so long as those "options" are voluntary and are fairly reviewed/assessed. Getting wholly locked into pretty much anything (currency, cell phone provider, ISP, fuel, etc) is a setup for a hard fall.
unemployment rate (Score:2)
Do you think that French people really care that much? They protest about being *bored* when they're not employed because they don't have to worry about starving or being homeless, or not being able to see a doctor, unlike the dummies in the US.
Re: (Score:3)
"The entire purpose of science and technology is to eliminate the need for paid employment as a necessity for survival"
Oh please, do stop watching Star Trek occasionally. Its not just about survival - most western countries have some kind of unemployment benefits system so people don't starve. But guess what? People go out to work anyway to earn extra money for themselves and their family and to have a sense of purpose instead of dossing about doing nothing all day.
" In due course people will pick an occupa
Private money (Score:2)
Lots of businesses create what is effectively their own private currency, which has the disadvantage of being limited in use and not recognized by government, but might be accepted on a voluntary basis in other contexts. Canadian Tire has had its own 'money' for 60 years.
The difference is the words 'Facebook' and 'cryptocurrency'. That's it. Just some buzzwords. And complex software with opportunities for errors and security breaches.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
No, the difference is scale and reach. Canadian Tire probably doesn't even have stores outside of Canada. They don't have a global reach or 2 billion people interacting with them on a daily basis. They aren't fronting their coupons as a replacement for traditional currency--people just happen to sometimes accept them as money, but there is, AFAIK, no CTM exchange or fund. CTM is one of the most "money like" store coupons out there, and it doesn't come anywhere near what Facebucks are attempting to be.
you seen what facebook did with your personal info (Score:5, Insightful)
you would be in the poor house while zuckerberg and the other facebook cronie/fascist/thieves would be living the highlife
facebook is not your friend
Re: (Score:2)
you would be in the poor house while zuckerberg and the other facebook cronie/fascist/thieves would be living the highlife
That pleasure yacht has already set sail my friend.
hypocrits. (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
First, france hasn't got anything to say about the EU
Funny, I thought France complained about the EU all the time.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Because Facebook is seen as helping Trump get elected. That's pretty much it.
That opened a witch-hunt ... their business was the same before and after, treatment of them not so much.
Re: (Score:3)
Bitcoin wasn't designed to hand control over to a single entity. Perhaps it does, but that entity would need to be highly invested in the success of Bitcoin. So, no, it's not the same as Facebook's "Libra" currency.
France the country with the high tax rates (Score:1)
France could (Score:2)
Denied! (Score:1)
"The monetary sovereignty of countries is at stake (Score:2)
Says France - a member of the Euro zone. That ship sailed for you 20 years ago Mr Le Maire.
Though he is right about a private company controlling money supply, thats just asking for economic chaos.
Hell non? (Score:3)
They might have said 'Enfer, non', but usually they say ' Merde alors!'
Exactly (Score:1)
Hahahaha (Score:3)
Thanks for the best laugh of the day so far!
That's no how macro economics works (Score:3)
The thing about proponents of Bitcoin & similar electronic commodities is that they either don't know or ignore how macroeconomics works. All money is debt. Bank notes are promissory notes. They declare that a government will honour the debt to the debt holder. Governments create debt & allocate it in order to provide investment (in resources & labour) in order to generate economic activity, thus providing jobs, prosperity, & generate tax revenue to pay off the initial debt.
Bitcoin & the like don't do any of this. They're an electronic commodity, not a currency. They have no natural resources, labour force, or tax-paying population to make good on the debt that they represent. Bitcoin has no responsibility to its users & so the price of Bitcoin can plummet or go sky high, as it often does, without any oversight or accountability to anyone. If it was widely used it would be devastating to the most vulnerable people.
That's a harsh, cruel economic world, far worse than what some people experience from neoliberal capitalism (e.g. in developing countries), that I don't think anyone would sanely opt to live in.
Tsk tsk tsk (Score:2)