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Education

Public Libraries Drop Overdue Book Fines To Alleviate Inequity (npr.org) 279

Posted by EditorDavid from the amnesty-for-education dept.
The San Diego Public Library system just wiped out overdue fines for 130,000 people. It's part of a growing trend, reports NPR: The changes were enacted after a city study revealed that nearly half of the library's patrons whose accounts were blocked as a result of late fees lived in two of the city's poorest neighborhoods. "I never realized it impacted them to that extent," said Misty Jones, the city's library director.

For decades, libraries have relied on fines to discourage patrons from returning books late. But a growing number of some of the country's biggest public library systems are ditching overdue fees after finding that the penalties drive away the people who stand to benefit the most from free library resources. From San Diego to Chicago to Boston, public libraries that have analyzed the effects of late fees on their cardholders have found that they disproportionately deter low-income residents and children. Acknowledging these consequences, the American Library Association passed a resolution in January in which it recognizes fines as "a form of social inequity" and calls on libraries nationwide to find a way to eliminate their fines....

Lifting fines has had a surprising dual effect: More patrons are returning to the library, with their late materials in hand. Chicago saw a 240% increase in return of materials within three weeks of implementing its fine-free policy last month. The library system also had 400 more card renewals compared with that time last year. "It became clear to us that there were families that couldn't afford to pay the fines and therefore couldn't return the materials, so then we just lost them as patrons altogether," said Andrea Telli, the city's library commissioner. "We wanted our materials back, and more importantly, we wanted our patrons back..."

in San Diego, officials calculated that it actually would be saving money if its librarians stopped tracking down patrons to recover books. The city had spent nearly $1 million to collect $675,000 in library fees each year.
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Public Libraries Drop Overdue Book Fines To Alleviate Inequity More

Public Libraries Drop Overdue Book Fines To Alleviate Inequity

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  • They'll all be fired!

    • Oh? Library cops do nothing about overdue books. They prevent abuse in the libraries, of patrons and of the books, especially more valuable collections. I met a professional book thief decades ago, who stole millions of dollars from reserved copies by slicing out the anti-theft tags. If he'd not been convicted before I discovered his profession and before I met him again, I'm not sure I'd have been able to avoid injuring him while restraining him for the police. He not only stole millions of dollars of irre

      • "Oh? Library cops do nothing about overdue books."

        It was a Seinfeld reference that went way over your head.

        • Yes, it did go way over my heads. I've enormous respect for librarians: the people who organize and help people find information are one of the signes of a great civilization.

  • ... so cheaply that no one would need to be bothered to "return" them. Too bad that no one has yet invented any medium to store written text apart from coloring paper sheets. Sure, education even for the poorest could be a great thing, but here with no alternative to precious printed books in sight. Let's celebrate that at least those books do not need to be copied by hand-writing anymore, as is has been the case until recently.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by NoNonAlphaCharsHere ( 2201864 )
      Libraries have to re-purchase e-book licenses after so many loans to replicate the physical degradation like that of paper books. I'll repeat that a different way: After so many loans (say 100) a paper book from a library is so shabby it can't be lent any more, at least that's the theory of publishers; therefore, after 100 loans of an e-book, the license to the library expires, and they have to purchase the e-book again. Yay capitalism!

      • What license have you seen this for? JSTOR and McGraw Hill sell subscruptions to their _very_ large inventory of documents. They're also very generous with their discounts and licensing terms, especially for libraries. They do need to pay copyright fees to authors and maintain their servers to provide electronic access.

        • JSTOR is largely academic and very expensive. Most public libraries' ebook subscriptions are as the OP stated. You buy them again after X number of circs. I retired from public libraries a number of years ago so I don't know the current vendors, but that's often how it works.

          • I point them out as examples of capitalism working to provide the service of information, organized information, online at reasonable subscription costs. JSTOR is largely academeic and is not free, but they are very much a non-profit. The money goes into the cost of the periodicals themselves, and a minor cut to keep the servers running and index the data from the periodicals. No educational publisher or library data service is gouging the poor or trying to deny them information in these businesses.

      • You are actually understating the problem. Some publishers are charging $60, roughly double a hard back, and the licenses only last 26 checkouts/2 years. Not positive about 26 checkouts, but 2 years is right and you won't get many more checkouts than that in 2 years anyway.

  • Trophies for Everyone! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MikeDataLink ( 536925 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @04:59PM (#59474292) Homepage Journal

    The human brain has inputs for rewards and punishments. If we keep rewarding people for bad behavior we will get more of it.

    • Re:Trophies for Everyone! (Score:5, Informative)

      by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:22PM (#59474362)

      You didn't bother to read the whole summary, I take it.

      "Lifting fines has had a surprising dual effect: More patrons are returning to the library, with their late materials in hand. Chicago saw a 240% increase in return of materials within three weeks of implementing its fine-free policy last month."

      • Re:Trophies for Everyone! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Jhon ( 241832 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:41PM (#59474408) Homepage Journal

        It's the equivalent of a dead-kitty bounce. You see the bump from books they wouldn't have got back from people who would LIKE to return them but don't want to deal with the fine. You are assuming that's everybody.

        What you will now get is a steady increase of folks checking out books and keeping them. And you'll find less folks feeling guilty about keeping books they borrowed.

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Hell, I'd donate my books if that was proven keep crime down.

            I would donate my books too, but I'm not sure what kind of life hentai mangas would lead to.

          • Have you seen these little libraries people put up in places, stocked with books they donate? Have you noticed them being emptied out all the time and destroyed? No? Neither have I. People can be awful but not all people are awful, many people still believe in good. If you treat people all the time like they're bad shockingly enough some of them eventually turn bad anyway because what the fuck why not, if you're going to be treated that way you may as fucking well. Alternately if you want to live in a Hell-

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          If someone wants to steal a book the a fine isn't going to stop them. They just won't pay it.

          • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

            by Jhon ( 241832 )

            You: "If someone wants to steal a book the a fine isn't going to stop them. They just won't pay it."

            Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

            Me: "What you will now get is a steady increase of folks checking out books and keeping them"

            What I didn't say is that we ALREADY have folks doing what you are saying. We'll get more of that. Because there's no incentive to return a book.

            Me again: "And you'll find less folks feeling guilty about keeping books they borrowed."

            Don't enforce jay-walking laws? You'll find you

            • What I didn't say is that we ALREADY have folks doing what you are saying. We'll get more of that. Because there's no incentive to return a book.

              Which is something you just made up. And it's stupid if you think about it for 2 seconds.

              You only paid a fine if you came back to the library after not returning a book. They didn't send you to collections, FFS. What incentive was there to return a book then? The fine is a disincentive, and is in no way analogous with the other examples you cite.

              And what's to convince them to return them? The same thing that did before. When you've got too many overdue library books they don't let you take out any more.

              • >"What incentive was there to return a book then? "

                The ability to borrow books again once the books are returned AND the fine is paid.

                >"And what's to convince them to return them? The same thing that did before. When you've got too many overdue library books they don't let you take out any more."

                Yes, but that just means the patron ignores the rules because they are inconvenient. "F*** that policy, I will just hold onto the books for as long as it is convenient for ME, there is no penalty, I can just

              • You only paid a fine if you came back to the library after not returning a book. They didn't send you to collections, FFS. What incentive was there to return a book then? The fine is a disincentive, and is in no way analogous with the other examples you cite.

                Uh, that's wrong in my county at least. They DO turn you into collections for failing to return or pay for a book. I know someone who was turned over and my daughter was threatened in her teens.

        • That has not been observed at other libraries that have implemented this policy. I have no explanation for why that is... my hypothesis would have been the same as yours.
        • Buy more books. This isn't the 1800s. Books are no longer expensive luxuries. Libraries don't exist to make reading accessible, they exist to encourage it.

          • Yeah, "buy more books" is really a solution for someone that is poor as shit and can barely afford to pay rent and put dinner on the table.

            I bet you're the same kind of person that then says poor people should educate themselves so they can get better jobs, and if they remain poor then it's just their fault.

        • They just send an email to remind you that it's late.
          Works for me. I bring the stuff back. Late sometimes, but always I've returned stuff.

        • At least at our library (Livermore, CA) fines were eliminated this summer but after an item is a week overdue, you lose library privileges. If you keep the book for over 30 days after notification of overdue status, it is treated as lost and you must pay for a replacement, so there are no fines but a big hit if you don't get around to it. You are also subject to arrest. (Failure to return a book is a misdemeanor under state law.)

          Time will tell if it works out. The no-fine policy is only 5 months old.

        • I love coming into these discussions and seeing people project their bad intentions on other people.

          Maybe YOU would do that or SOME people would do that, but I would guess most of the people at the library are not there for the petty crimeâ"and you still have to bring the books back if you want more, so you can't even do the same crime more than once anywayâ"they are actually there because they want to use the library.

          Sure, some bad actors exist in every system, but libraries are a public good wit

        • It would be idiotic to allow people to keep checking out books without returning them, but of course nobody is proposing that. Simply suspend their library privileges until overdue books are returned -- but without making them also pay a fine. The inability to continue borrowing is the punishment. If somebody would rather hold onto a single book for life than enjoy their choice of reading tens of thousands of books one at a time sequentially... well, either it's a really expensive book they're reselling or

      • I'm always shocked at how many people are quick to defend punitive systems that don't work. Authoritarian leanings seem to be similar to a religion, where evidence against a system doesn't count, because it doesn't satisfy their innate need to see someone suffer.

        • That's just how people work. To see it in action, just wait for some high-profile crime, then look at the comments section of any news site that allows comments. You will find it full of people openly calling for the perpetrator to be slowly tortured to death, and anyone who objects to the torture to be executed too.

    • >"The human brain has inputs for rewards and punishments. If we keep rewarding people for bad behavior we will get more of it."

      Yep. I am in favor of lowering fines, or even giving a one-time free exception (or one free pass per year or something, for every X number of books returned on time, as a reward for good behavior). But having NO punishment for bad behavior perpetuates bad behavior, and teaches nothing.

      So what's next? Get rid of fees and penalties for paying your taxes late? For being late on

  • Is that maths right? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by martinX ( 672498 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:01PM (#59474298)

    The city had spent nearly $1 million to collect $675,000 in library fees each year.

    Seems like they actually spent $1 million to collect $675, 000 in library fees plus the return of the overdue materials, the value of which is not stated.

    Not sure why they'd need to spend too much - emailed late notices should automate at least part of the task.

    Finally, our library system has an annual amnesty at Christmas time.

    • Most libraries will declare material lost after a month and charge a replacement cost. That replacement cost would be included in the library fees and libraries could continue to assess that cost without having late fees.

      When there is a late fee, people actually feel entitled to keep material late as they feel they are renting it at a cost they are willing to pay. Without late fees you are appealing much more strongly to people's sense of guilt and shame which can be a stronger motivating force.

      • "Most libraries will declare material lost after a month and charge a replacement cost."

        You just made that up.

    • Re:Is that maths right? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:57PM (#59474464) Homepage Journal

      My mum works in the public library system and a lot of patrons come to use the computers because they don't have internet at home. Obviously emailing them isn't going to be very effective.

  • Not a library (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Smonster ( 2884001 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:09PM (#59474324)
    The tried to implement this here. Fortunately greater minds prevailed. If you can’t return you book on time, or even at all, you don’t deserve to check out new books. Without that they system falls apart. It no longer remains a library but a free book repository courtesy of the tax payers. I am not saying giving away free books lacks merit, but it is something else entire from what a library has historically been. And it isn’t what most people have agreed to fund.

    • Re:Not a library (Score:5, Insightful)

      by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:27PM (#59474382)

      The tried to implement this here. Fortunately greater minds prevailed. If you can’t return you book on time, or even at all, you don’t deserve to check out new books.

      You are falsely conflating the elimination of a fine with not being penalized at all. From TFA:

      "Chicago's cardholders have seven days past the due date to return items before their card is blocked from use. In the case of lost materials, patrons must pay to replace the book or provide a new copy of the same edition."

      If you don't return your books, you don't get to check out new ones.

      • If you don't return your books, you don't get to check out new ones.

        That does nothing to help those other people waiting for the book to be returned so they can check it out and if you do not pay your fines then why would you pay for a new book - effectively it is just a larger fine.

        I can understand the dilemma they face but removing all fines removes any incentive to return books and risks undermining the entire library system.

  • Ridiculous! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by EzInKy ( 115248 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:14PM (#59474336)

    If I can manage to return a book on time so can everyone else.

    • Libraries find that removing a fine which was put in place to encourage the return of library books actually increases the return of library books and helps the poor. (We get rid of a counter-productive regulation and help the poor, should make anyone anywhere on the political spectrum happy).

      Slashdot: I can return a book, so screw this!
      Slashdot mods - have my points!

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 )
      Because no one is living in poverty, or has no transportation, or isn't disabled, or has any other reason, everyone is living in their McMansion in a clean suburban cul-de-sac and has a household income in the six digits like you, right? There could possibly be any reason.

  • But this actually sounds quite interesting.
    The impact is on the poorest segment (who are actually the ones most in need of either the escapism, or the ability to obtain technical material that's not "free on the internet". Textbooks and the like).
    Many of these will progress through a book slower than the more highly educated (and good on them for going through the books!). Also, the very poor who go to libraries will more likely be holding down longer hours, and find it much harder to get to the library.
    T

  • Solving the wrong problem (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stikves ( 127823 ) on Sunday December 01, 2019 @05:30PM (#59474390) Homepage

    I would not dispute low income families would have harder time paying fees. Being poor is expensive, and basic things becomes easier if you have money. However this is ridiculous.

    Late fees deter certain behavior, where the library, and hence the other patrons, are deprived of books. A popular book, especially textbooks and such, would be in high demand. You can check it out for only a short while, until the next person gets to use that resource. Many libraries implement queue systems, so you can estimate when it would be available to you.

    Yet, once there are no limits on how long a book can be checked out, then the social contract gets broken. It would be a race to check books as early as possible, and not return them for extended periods. If you know you need a certain chemistry book *next year*, why not check it out now, and keep it for two years until the classes are over? Those other fifty people waiting in line? Yep they can just keep waiting...

    We might solve the issue of poor people being unable to pay late fees with other mechanisms. However abandoning them altogether is a mistake that would eventually backfire.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by fgouget ( 925644 )

      If you know you need a certain chemistry book *next year*, why not check it out now, and keep it for two years until the classes are over?

      Because there's a limit on the number of books you're allowed to check out and checking out "next year's" books would prevent you from checking out the books you need "this year".

  • couldn't afford to pay the fines and therefore couldn't return the materials

    I didn't look up their specific policies, but unless they don't assess the fee until/unless the materials are return, this doesn't make much sense. I guess, if it was something you needed periodically, you might be tempted to retain it, knowing you'd not be able to check it out again without paying money.

    Generally, though, not returning it is just lazy or malicious. No one else gets a crack at it while they're holding on. Are they embarrassed? Here, at least, our libraries have drop-off receptacles fo

  • In Tasmania, library fines were dropped statewide last year: https://www.abc.net.au/news/20... [abc.net.au]

  • If you assess fines after you provided the service, it's only natural that customers won't come back, unless of course they value your service more than the fine. Most businesses figured it out long ago that rather than charge late fees, it is more customer friendly to offer incentives such as "get 5% off if you pay your bill early" - carrot instead of a stick. Libraries could do the same, offer those who return on time additional privileges such as longer return windows, ability to check out more books, ea

  • The whole point of fines is for library patrons to have an incentive to return books or other media on time so other patrons can also have a chance to borrow the item. If a library eliminates fines, then what's the incentive to return borrowed items in a timely manner? Instead, what if libraries go draconian and charge late borrowers with theft and call in the police? In effect, not returning a book is stealing and is no different than shoplifting. If libraries used means testing and adjusted fines accordin

    • If libraries used means testing and adjusted fines according to a patron's income bracket

      There is no way that the library has the money or time to 'means test' everybody borrowing a book.

  • I get movies and books from the library. I hit the library every friday. Movies have a 7 day rental, so when I go back next friday I've got a late fee. Books are the same but, as I get them for 3 weeks, it isn't as bad.

    Still, the 1 day late charge isn't as much as the 3 day Blockbuster rental, so. Um. What was that? Blockbuster did what? You're kidding?
  • There where many books, also magazines to read. I met people with shared interests in science or technology.
  • I'm surprised the dopes in San Diego, didn't use this idea. If a "poor" person doesn't return their books, they won't get a fine, but, a person who returns books on time gets fined. That would be the "socialist" thing to do. lDIOTS.

  • Make the fine an hour of service for the library. Harder for wealthy more than the poor. Gets the library cleaner - you could even offer a low paying job if they are good at the service.

    Perfect way to enforce good behavior.

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