Uber, Postmates Sue California to Block Gig-Worker Law (bloomberg.com) 218
Uber and Postmates sued the state of California, alleging that a labor rights law set to go into effect this week is unconstitutional. From a report: The lawsuit filed Monday in Los Angeles federal court is a preemptive strike against the state's landmark measure designed to ensure gig workers receive employment protections. Uber and Postmates argue the legislative process around California's Assembly Bill 5 unfairly targeted gig economy companies while favoring other industries and that the law will threaten workers' flexibility. The passage of A.B. 5, which takes effect Wednesday, has set in motion a bitter dispute about the rights of Uber drivers, food couriers and other people who derive their income from apps made in Silicon Valley working as independent contractors. Uber and Postmates say it's arbitrary that direct salespeople, travel agents, grant writers, construction truck drivers, commercial fishermen and others are exempted from the law. "There is no rhyme or reason to these nonsensical exemptions, and some are so ill-defined or entirely undefined that it is impossible to discern what they include or exclude," according to the complaint.
TAXI COMPANY (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, this is terrifying (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, expect mass layoffs if they win. Every mega corp in the country will fire their staff and rehire them at lower pay and without benefits. Sure, there'll be a few guys at the very top that don't get that treatment, but everybody reading this get ready to lose your job in 3-5 years.
SCOTUS has done some crazy things before though, and at least one of the pro-corp guys is a moderate, so it might not happen. Still, I think it's a lock if Trump wins since his last 2 appointments were pro-corporate and RBG isn't going to make it another 3 years. Not that Biden or Buttigieg wouldn't do the same. Warren's pick probably wouldn't, and Sanders' pick would strike this down, but then again Sanders would be directing the IRS to enforce existing law at the federal level and shut this gig crap down.
Still, those of us with good jobs (or at least good paying ones) need to keep a close eye on this. It will effect us.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't think they expect to win.
They delayed filing until right before it takes effect. I think they just want to delay it taking effect with an injunction, and the later they file the longer that injunction will delay it coming into effect.
Not sure you can do that anymore (Score:2)
Re:Well, this is terrifying (Score:4, Insightful)
Who are you to decide what jobs people are allowed to choose?
Re: (Score:2)
Asked every prostitute ever...
Re: (Score:2)
I'm an intelligent person who will make things better for everyone, that's who.
Re: I'm not (Score:2)
You are punishing companies that would hire people. How do you expect people to eat without a job? Donâ(TM)t think the government can dole out jobs, do you think you would want to work for a congresscritter? Let me know how it works out when you are an expense to the government.
Re: I'm not (Score:4, Informative)
If you can't afford worker protections you can't be in business. Its that simple.
Re: (Score:2)
I meant other companies (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They could already fire full-time and part-time employees and replace them with contractors if they felt they could get the same quality and consistency of work. There's nothing stopping them from doing that now.
So-called "gig workers" are a different animal. They don't have regular hours, and they don't really have project deadlines either. There's no real way to replace full-time employees with "gig workers". Notice how few companies were replacing traditional contract workers and/or full-time employe
You grossly over-estimate "pro-corporate" (Score:2, Troll)
I expect what will happen is that the California legislature will clarify the law, so it is clear to whom it applies, and at the same time they'll add some language indicating WHY certain professions are exempt and others aren't. That'll end the suit.
Currently, driving for a construction company is exempt, driving for a delivery company isn't. The legislature isn't supposed to arbitrarily favor one group over another. They are supposed to have some articulable reason for penalizing one group and not the o
Re: (Score:2)
They've boxed themselves in a corner. If they change their ill-advised law now it will be obvious they were targeting specific companies. Either way the law gets thrown out and the State Rep who authored it is going to be tossed out by the voters she already got fired. Vox has already fired 200 freelancers and they are furious.
Re: (Score:3)
Companies that hired freelancers were exploiting them? Why are so many newly-unemployed contract workers so outraged? Can you show me any that are thankful to be out of a job now?
Re: (Score:2)
> > The legislature isn't supposed to arbitrarily favor one group over another.
> That isn't true at all.
"nor shall any State [...] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws".
> The fact that there are multiple strategies, is part of the US Constitution
Which part of the Constitution is that? Exactly which part says "judges shall write new Constitutions whenever they feel like it"?
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
We know better now. Thanks for playing.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Bahaha (Score:3)
âoeThere is no rhyme or reason to these nonsensical exemptions, and some are so ill-defined or entirely undefined that it is impossible to discern what they include or exclude,"
Since when did laws have to make any sense?!?
Seriously, what's the difference anyway ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Actually the only difference between a right to work state and an at will state has to to with workers rights to unionize. Other than that, employers do have the right to terminate an employee at will. But they are responsible for assuring the reason for termination is legal and they are responsible for paying their share of taxes and insurance. Big difference between the actual amount of money workers keep between a 1099 and a W2.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Uber drivers do not get paid for driving towards each pickup (barring a few exceptions which almost never happen). And Uber drivers do not get paid for waiting between jobs.
That's the difference. In other words, an Uber driver can be online and working 50+ hours a week, but the app itself will say that they've only been working less than 30 hours that week.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
They're so much better off now that they're unemployed! You saved them from getting screwed!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Too bad they don't qualify for unemployment.
Re: (Score:2)
Arbitrary? exempt? (Score:3)
"Uber and Postmates say it's arbitrary that direct salespeople, travel agents, grant writers, construction truck drivers, commercial fishermen and others are exempted from the law. "There is no rhyme or reason to these nonsensical exemptions, and some are so ill-defined or entirely undefined that it is impossible to discern what they include or exclude," according to the complaint."
Just like that decision about computer-related occupations being salary exempt? Waahh arbitrary thing not good for me this time
mixed feelings (Score:2)
Shock! (Score:2)
Some Uber drivers *do not* want to be employees. It might be advantageous to some, but definitely not all.
If you are idling, and waiting to be compensated "minimum wage", I think you are doing it wrong. I spoke to several friends who do Uber, and they easily make many times that amount.
Some of them incorporated to their own taxi service (still working for Uber and Lyft, but at higher *black* level), others used this opportunity to finish a coding bootcamp, and starting a long term career. These are in confl
I don't understand what's wrong with freelancing (Score:2)
I freelanced for half of my career and didn't find it cruel. I started doing freelance gigs while still in college and at some point I was so successful I even started my own business. At one point I managed 5 simultaneous projects.
In my country Uber drivers are simply required by the government to incorporate as a one-man business before dealing with Uber.
And just like myself, some are so successful they manage to buy other cars and eventually stop driving on a full time basis.
Up until the dawn of mechaniz
Rhyme AND reason (Score:4, Informative)
> There is no rhyme or reason to these nonsensical exemptions, and some are so ill-defined or entirely undefined that it is impossible to discern what they include or exclude
What's nonsensical is this claim. The exemptions are people who typically make a substantial wage but who's jobs are very seasonal (travel agents, fishermen, etc.) and/or work for small companies ... and not people who are literally being squeezed into oblivion by massive corporations trying to increase the bottom line for investors.
lol (Score:2)
Wow, workers' rights are unconstitutional? What a country we live in
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Back on topic... (Score:4, Informative)
I think you just found one of (many) rsilvergun's accounts on Slashdot.
Re: Back on topic... (Score:4, Informative)
No scroll down, he accidentally posted the same screed twice under different accounts and now he's vanished hoping nobody will notice and/or forget. Now we know how his nonsense is instantly upmodded.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3)
Every mega corp in the country will fire their staff and rehire them at lower pay and without benefits.
Nonsense. Contractors are usually paid more than hourly workers, since their work is less steady and there are fewer benefits.
Neither 1099 nor W2 work is "better". They are just different.
The best solution is that gig-workers should be classified as neither 1099-contractors nor W2-hourly since neither fits their situation well. Instead, the IRS should create a new 3rd category.
universal health care is needed in the usa (Score:5, Insightful)
universal health care is needed in the usa
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
How about you ALL pay for it, and everyone gets to pocket the savings?
Cutting out the middlemen leaches should save the USA about 30% for comparable care. As a bonus, you wouldn't have quite literally the worst heath care system of any developed country.
Re: (Score:2)
Cutting out the middlemen leaches should save the USA about 30% for comparable care.
The insurance industry has an overhead (administration + profit) of about 15%.
There are more savings in hospitals and practices if they can spend less time dealing with collecting from insurance, but it isn't a given that the government will be any more efficient.
A 30% savings is very optimistic.
The real savings would come from reform in how healthcare is delivered. But this is currently 20% of America's economy and is the most powerful special interest group that has ever existed in the history of the wor
Re: (Score:2)
"we would have to cut the size of the medical establishment in half"
Scalpels?
Re: universal health care is needed in the usa (Score:5, Informative)
That is the crux of the issue in the US. Healthcare reform to something like a single user pays system does have multiple efficiency benefits. Take the NHS (which is underfunded at the moment, but even when well funded is very efficient at delivering it's service through a whole raft of efficiency gains.
1. There is collective bargaining on pharmaceuticals through National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, that reviews efficacy of new drugs vs current drugs. It can independently determine when they are appropriate for a treatment and should be subsided by the NHS, and are cost effective compared to other treatments. With this single evidence based UK wide approach they have a strong bargaining position.
2. Administratively hospitals in this mechanism are very efficient. You turn up and you'll be treated. The admin involved in getting reimbursement from the hospital and insurance end of things in the US is significant.
3. Much of medical insurance is for profit, so there is an additional cost there in achieving that profit.
As you've highlighted healthcare is a large part of the US economy, and Factors 1 and 3 have large lobbying groups behind them that want to retain the profits in pharmaceuticals and health insurance. Don't expect them to go down without a massive fight. It would have to be a tranistion over many years.
There are big advantages to universal healthcare. For instance it removes a significant hurdle for many people from starting their own businesses, as they get stuck in jobs because of the need for health insurance for their families. I don't think the UK media and entertainment industry would be what it is without the backing of things like the NHS to support new talent.
Re: (Score:2)
As a bonus, you wouldn't have quite literally the worst heath care system of any developed country.
How is anyone supposed to take you seriously when you say stuff like this?
Depending on the year and the methodology, the US typically has between 5 and 8 of the top rated hospitals in the world (example: https://www.advisory.com/daily... [advisory.com]).
US hospitals are even more dominant in both pediatrics and cancer treatment.
The very specific measure that the US lacks is access to specialized healthcare (no one can be turned away from an ER regardless of ability to pay).
It's also a very valid criticism that healthcare
Re: (Score:3)
I have no problems paying taxes to ensure a working society. I have even less problems making you pay for it too.
Re: (Score:2)
Nonsense. Contractors are usually paid more than hourly workers, since their work is less steady and there are fewer benefits.
Neither 1099 nor W2 work is "better". They are just different.
The best solution is that gig-workers should be classified as neither 1099-contractors nor W2-hourly since neither fits their situation well. Instead, the IRS should create a new 3rd category.
I respectfully disagree. I've done both, 1099 sucks. For the tax hit alone, 1099 sucks. W2, much better. I understand there are some job shops that offer health & 401K matches, but it's kinda useless when your contract runs out. I've been W2 now for 20 years, with pay raises, great health care, maxing out my 401K, & let's not forget 5 weeks paid vacation plus a bunch of holidays. 1099 sucks.
Re: (Score:2)
I respectfully disagree. I've done both, 1099 sucks. For the tax hit alone, 1099 sucks. W2, much better. I understand there are some job shops that offer health & 401K matches, but it's kinda useless when your contract runs out. I've been W2 now for 20 years, with pay raises, great health care, maxing out my 401K, & let's not forget 5 weeks paid vacation plus a bunch of holidays. 1099 sucks.
Still a case by case. I have all of the perks you mention as a W2. Therfore it's more beneficial in our family for my wife to work 1099. She makes more money (despite matching contributions to retirement, higher OASDI taxes, paid holidays, etc.), and has much better control over her schedule than would otherwise be possible, while we still have employer provided healthcare.
Re: (Score:3)
Independent contractors aren't directed by employers as to when and how the work is accomplished,
This is one out of 20 criteria that the IRS uses to determine if a worker is a contractor or employee. None of them is, alone, either necessary nor sufficient to make the distinction.
A contractor should meet most (but not necessarily all) of the following criteria:
The 20 Questions
1. Are you required to comply with instructions about when, where, and how the work is to be done? (No.)
2. Does your client provide you with training to enable you to perform a job in a particular method or manner? (No.)
3. Are the
Re: (Score:2)
This is the way I score an Uber driver:
Contractor: 2, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20
Employee: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 18
By criteria count, an Uber driver is more of a contractor than an employee, but the IRS doesn't just do a count. It is more subjective than that.
Re: (Score:2)
Can't they simply claim wrongful dismissal and get rehired? After suitable compensation?
Oops, silly me, I forgot what country they are in...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Asks everyone ever arrested for prostitution...
Re: Back on topic... (Score:5, Insightful)
So we should allow 10 year olds to go into factory machines and stick their hands in there to clean up stuff. Or allow anyone to retire at any age and dish out SS benefits like they are 65+?
Clearly there are lines on what are "bad" jobs or more clearly what aren't considered "jobs" at all. We are well past defining them; we are now at just clarifying them for every idiot who found a loop hole.
Re:Do you like gigs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Lol, what you're essentially saying is, "fuck workers, let companies screw them as much as they can".
This law doesn't outlaw gig work at all. It pretty much says, "If you want employees, you have to hire them, and that means paying taxes and benefits." I fail to see how this is a bad thing for anyone except the corporations who want the cheapest labor without paying their fair share of taxes.
If you still want gig work, you just need to go find some gig work. Put some ads out. Slap some flyers up in Starbucks.
What you can't do is "gig" for a company doing a primary business function, because if you're doing that, you're an employee. And employees pay payroll taxes, get benefits, and have legal protections regarding their working environments, hours, compensation, and duties. Fuck companies trying to dodge all that, because it hurts society as a whole.
Re: (Score:3)
It basically outlaws independent contractors. There have already been mass layoffs in the online journalism field in California the past few weeks because of it. Most of those folks were earning a nice income working for themselves.
What business is it of yours what/how/when other people choose to work?
Re:Do you like gigs? (Score:5, Insightful)
> It basically outlaws independent contractors.
Not at all. The "40 hours per week independent contractors", however, are employees.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
China is the model California is trying to emulate. State control over every aspect of your life. Thousands of people will now lose their jobs and independence because you know what's best for them. Well done.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I suppose if your idea of independence is being homeless.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
It appears the people supporting this are the ones who want to enslave the rest of us by dictating what kinds of employment exists and who should be allowed to work for whom. There's a reason jobs are fleeing states that enact such policies for those that aren't.
Re: Do you like gigs? (Score:2, Troll)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Yeah, so when I'm digging around in a dumpster looking for food in some back alley, I'll be so glad that I'm not being "abused" any more.
Seriously, can you hear yourself? Fuck off, you obnoxious, entitled little righteous piece of shit. I do the work I do because I want to do it. *I* and nobody else will decide what work I do and how it gets done. I guess that just means I will need to start negotiating under the table gig jobs where I just pocket all of the money and don't have to pay any taxes.
Congratulat
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If the workers agreed to it then it is a fair wage by definition. Now that you've taken away that choice they have NO wages. How is this so hard to understand?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Service industry and many independent contractor jobs are specifically excluded from minimum wage laws. You've never had a job have you?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
If the workers agreed to it then it is a fair wage by definition.
No, it just means the choice was either crap pay or no pay.
Re: (Score:2)
And now their only choice is no pay. Well done.
Re: (Score:2)
I know you want to make a point, but if you don't understand how utterly fucking stupid what you just wrote is, I don't think anyone can help you.
You're so amazingly wrong about....everything....it's just spectacular. I honestly don't know if you just failed at trolling more than I thought it was possible to do so, or if you're that fucking ignorant that what you wrote makes sense to you.
Re: Do you like gigs? (Score:2)
Why does everyone jump on Cali so much on this site? Why do we care? There are 49 other states folks can freely move to! Let Cali be and do their own stuff.
Re: Do you like gigs? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
'Cali so much on this site?'
Because for at least the past 50 years legislation affected pretty much gets nationally adopted. Pretty much because they're good at it. Remember CARB..
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, CARB. Do you remember what the air in the LA basin looked like in the 80's before CARB's effects were fully effective? Driving in off the desert it looked like you were driving down into a bowl of brown soup, then breathing it. If CARB fixed that then I'm all for it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Gig work like Uber was never meant to be a replacement for traditional employment.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
You work for Uber in your off time in short bursts . . . a few hours here, a few hours there. Such work is not comparable to regular employment or even contracting, since there are no regular hours or deadlines.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Can you quantify that with work statements from Uber drivers? I have known several people who drove for Uber or Lyft, and none of them did it exclusively. It was always to supplement income from another job.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not what a lot of people do. They have loans for cars that have requirements of a certain number of rides. A number that looks large enough to be full time.
I'd say the money is crap(after expenses). But, if the job pays as great as Uber seems to think, why not do it more than part time?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: ANTI-GIG-WORKER LAWS ARE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED!!! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
You deserve $0.15 an hour and no protections. See how this game works?
Re: (Score:2)
'That should be left to the market.'
It absolutely should. But if the work you create is participating in service or action that is created or referred by a single company, you are their employee.'
They need to be held to the same responsibility as any other company that uses people to create a service or product, AS AN EMPLOYEE.
If you are an independent contractor and harm a client, and that client sues the company that pays you, you are not a contractor. You're just being used as an employee so the
Re: (Score:2)
We are so lucky to have you to tell us what jobs should exist and which ones we're allowed to take. The hundreds of people laid off right before Christmas thank you too. Whatever would we do without you?
On a brighter note the other 49 states just gained those lost California jobs, so thanks again.
Re: (Score:2)
Are you talking about Uber? People in other states didn't just get jobs driving in California. Geography based jobs don't really move to other locations.
Re: (Score:2)
By that reasoning, shouldn't everyone who writes software for the iPhone should be considered an Apple employee?
How would you even begin to track that anyways?
Re: (Score:2)
Yes. We actually do want people to have a choice when and where they work. That should be left to the market.
Pity the market is often a race to the bottom. That's why a lot of the jobs went to China etc.
There needs to be some minimum standard.
Re: (Score:2)
The race to the bottom would be a lot more entertaining if it included executives. Shareholders are paying them too much. Time to cut some salaries and bonuses.