This App Automatically Cancels and Sues Robocallers (vice.com) 99
DoNotPay, the family of consumer advocacy services meant to protect people from corporate exploitation, is launching a new app aimed at helping end our long national nightmare surrounding robocalls by giving you a burner credit card to get their contact details then giving you a chatbot lawyer to automatically sue them. From a report: DoNotPay Founder and CEO Joshua Browder's Robo Revenge app is unique from every other app looking to protect you from robocalls in that it can get you cash while stopping them completely. "All of the big companies like AT&T and Apple have failed to protect consumers," Browder told Motherboard over the phone. "Consumers have to protect themselves. The only way the problem will end is if the robocallers start losing money every time they call someone."
In the past, DoNot Pay has offered various apps to help consumers fight back. DoNotPay's Free Trial Card creates a virtual, one-time-use credit card to protect you from getting charged by "industrialized scams" like free trials. DoNotPay's original offering was a chatbot lawyer program that automatically disputed parking tickets in small claims court. Robo Revenge combines both features to automatically add you to the Do Not Call Registry, generate a virtual DoNotPay burner credit card to provide scammers when they illegally call you anyways, use the transaction information to get the scammer's contact information, then walk you through how to sue them for as much as $3,000 per call under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA), a law already on the books meant to protect consumers from calls that violate the Do Not Call Registry. The app also streamlines the litigation paperwork by automatically generating demand letters and court filing documents.
In the past, DoNot Pay has offered various apps to help consumers fight back. DoNotPay's Free Trial Card creates a virtual, one-time-use credit card to protect you from getting charged by "industrialized scams" like free trials. DoNotPay's original offering was a chatbot lawyer program that automatically disputed parking tickets in small claims court. Robo Revenge combines both features to automatically add you to the Do Not Call Registry, generate a virtual DoNotPay burner credit card to provide scammers when they illegally call you anyways, use the transaction information to get the scammer's contact information, then walk you through how to sue them for as much as $3,000 per call under the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA), a law already on the books meant to protect consumers from calls that violate the Do Not Call Registry. The app also streamlines the litigation paperwork by automatically generating demand letters and court filing documents.
App that generates money instead of costing some? (Score:5, Insightful)
What's not to like?
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Well, if you read the reviews of their app, lots of people are saying that they are getting charged by DoNotPay, even without using their service.
People are also saying that they are getting asked for a bunch of personal and banking information right from the get-go when setting up their account.
Re:App that generates money instead of costing som (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't actually legal to give out "burner" credit cards, so as shady as it would be to give them your banking details, it would be even shadier if they said you didn't have to.
Banks are required to know their customer.
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What about the vanilla / pre-loaded credit cards?
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They don't do a credit check, but they require you to input all your financial details.
If you lie about who you are and what your SS# is, the card will still likely work.
However, you still committed bank fraud by filling in incorrect information.
You will absolutely not be able to go to court and sue somebody for scamming "you" when you paid them with a fraudulent financial instrument in a fictitious person's name.
Many of the sources of these cards actually do verify your information, and then mail you the c
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You're simply wrong about what the product is.
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I dunno... I see a legal defense by them being... (Score:3, Interesting)
You obviously WANTED the service, because you paid for it, thus your lawsuit should be dismissed. The anti-spam act (what is it CAN-SPAM?) is supposed to stop unwanted calls.
But getting the info to out them is good... if the endpoint account or establishment even cares.
What are court filing fees? And how do we collect?
I'm all for this though! And lawsuits should be aimed towards the phone companies for not implementing solutions in a timely manner.
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Re:I dunno... I see a legal defense by them being. (Score:5, Insightful)
You obviously WANTED the service, because you paid for it, thus your lawsuit should be dismissed.
You didn't pay for the service. You paid to acquire evidence of an illegal call.
I hold you at gunpoint. If you pay, then obviously you WANTED my service of "no holes in your body", so your lawsuit should be dismissed.
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Excellent analogy mate.
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Remember to read the fine print when giving out your banking details, though. Otherwise you don't know if you paid for the service, or not.
Re:I dunno... I see a legal defense by them being. (Score:5, Insightful)
The anti-spam act (what is it CAN-SPAM?) is supposed to stop unwanted calls.
It only stops them if someone sues the company for violating it. Passing a law doesn't make the behavior magically stop. It requires enforcement.
Re:I dunno... I see a legal defense by them being. (Score:4, Interesting)
Indeed - and the fact that an individual lawsuit is required rather than being a government-prosecuted criminal act seems to me pretty solid evidence it was never intended to actually do anything.
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The flaw is these are mostly scam sites, they have no intention on providing you the services that they had sold you.
Also this is akin to saying someone wasn't raped, because they had condoms in their possession.
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You obviously WANTED the service, because you paid for it
Doesn't matter. You put yourself on the "Do Not Call" list and they called. Whether or not you "wanted" the service is irrelevant.
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if the service or charge is misrepresented then it's not a binding agreement. And separately the solicitation itself can be in violation of the Telephone Consumer Protection Act (TCPA).
DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer. I am not YOUR lawyer. And I am not allowed to practice law in at least 49 states.
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The anti-spam act (what is it CAN-SPAM?) is supposed to stop unwanted calls.
IANAL but I think you're confusing the CAN SPAM Act of 2003 with the National Do Not Call Registry?
Win Win, screw the robocallers... (Score:2)
Once in a while an incoming call is tagged with "Scam Likely" which of course I don't bother even answering.
If the caller isn't in my contact list, I usually don't bother answering either.
I like this approach, and if the app was free, would be happy to pay a percentage of my winnings to their continued existence rather than pay for the app.
No, this is /. I didn't bother to read anything other than the summary.
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That wouldn't work for me, and many other people. I get a fair number of calls that are related to my various medical conditions and the callers often use their own phones, rather than the hospital or clinic's lines, meaning that the number they're using is almost never in my contact list. If I were to ignore all of those calls because I don't know who the callers were, I'd be missing important, maybe urgent calls on a regu
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Man, too bad that there's no way to record their voice so you can find out what they wanted, and it sucks that you can't make outgoing calls.
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Sounds like an excellent solution (Score:2)
If it works, that is. Somehow I expect the robo-caller scum will not let go so easily of their destructive business model.
India (Score:5, Insightful)
99.999% of the scammers that call my phone are India based. I don't expect them to be worried about my lawsuit.
Re: India (Score:4, Informative)
THIS! It w will just force more calls to originate from abroad. ALSO, I couldn't find a link to the app, even from the Vice article linked to from this /. summary... So this is even more disappointing.
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Fucking Millennials: stop using "this" as an affirmation of your agreement with the quoted person's view or opinion.
(I blame their teachers and the whole education system.)
Re: India (Score:2, Insightful)
Stupid Boomer, stop telling me how to write, especially on the internet! By the way, I'm to old to be a millennial. Plus you contributed zero to the conversation.
Re: India (Score:1)
Just ask snarky loaded trolling questions like you just did and before you know it you've proven you're there! (According to the one who had an issue with me writing '"this!")
I'm on mobile and I find it amusing me using a word in a similar way since probably the year the word was coined, to save time, sparked inane debate and add hominem attacks. (And I forgot an "o" in "too", so what?)
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Should they get off your lawn too?
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This! ..
I completely agree, utterly, really, people need to stop doing it, it's sooo annoying
.
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But seriously, I figure it's just a contraction of sorts for "I second this".. that would make sense.
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This. They've like, been saying that in California for like, forever, too.
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Totally!
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I'm starting a new trend.
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umadbro?
"this" appeared suspiciously close to the emergence of C++ and persists because of Javascript. It's a way of thinking, that casually transfers to discussion points.
Trying to attribute this to millenials (since it appeared long before that generation) is just idiotic.
Re: India (Score:2)
I don't program... It waseamt to be more like someone else said, an "I second this.", but concise and meant to help others locate a good and true point that's on topic quickly. But even if you do, the trolls still troll, haters hate, and taters tate. I started coming here for good discussion and if I'm here, what I'm still trying to look for and promote.
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This! I totally agree!
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Right on Daddy-o (snapping fingers). If every generation had idiosyncratic word choices and catch phrases, where would we be?
Next thing you know they'll be playing pool or dancing.
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Nothing on either Apple's App Store or Google's Play store. Perhaps the article is just an early flag.
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99.999% of the scammers that call my phone are India based. I don't expect them to be worried about my lawsuit.
Lucky you. I would usually just get the ones that screamed at you in Mandarin.
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My friend's daughter is learning Mandarin. When he gets one of those calls he hands the phone to her so she can "screw with them."
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I just switch to Russian and keep repeating, "I'm an American, I only speak English." They can't figure out if they're supposed to keep yelling, or be polite. Sometimes they even apologize before hanging up.
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On a landline, I tell them I'm really really interested, but please wait a moment, I'll be right back. Then put the phone down and forget about it until they hang up. Back in college, a roommate and I both played instruments, so we'd often practice together. We were playing a duet one day when an Indian guy called. I set down the receiver, we kept playing, and eventually he hung up. Then he immediately called back. I answered, and he complimented our playing. I said thank you, and hung up.
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That's great, he was working hard though.
It almost makes me consider writing a phone app that plays them some recording like that, people in a room playing music and talking like they're practicing. I have unlimited calling that I don't use, why not?
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The more of their time you can waste, the fewer people they're bothering.
Hey, how about an Eliza bot specifically designed to talk to telemarketers?
Their boss will be. (Score:2)
Once the court starts requesting financial and other details from his bank.
At 3k a pop, it becomes a rather large chunk of cash he's liable for rather quickly.
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Once the court starts requesting financial and other details from his bank.
At 3k a pop, it becomes a rather large chunk of cash he's liable for rather quickly.
How is a court going to enforce any American laws on a foreign bank? Answer: They won't.
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Their scams rely on having a local bank. Foreign banks can't receive ACH transfers.
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Their scams rely on having a local bank. Foreign banks can't receive ACH transfers.
But this article is about Credit Cards... Visa and MC are global.
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They darn better have a US presence (ie, are local) if they want to get any debts onto your credit history.
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I think an app that insults their mothers in Hindi would be more worthwhile. I usually call them pajeets before hanging up.
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I asked them politely if their mother knows that they steal from people for a living. How does she feel about that?
It seems to really hit some buttons. Often the caller will scream at me or call me something really vile before disconnecting. Life is good.
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Thank you. I'll have to remember that one. I usually tell them I'm really, really, super interested, could you just hang on for a minute, I'll be right back. Then put the phone down and forget about it.
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Chandala is also a fun one
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99.999% of the scammers that call my phone are India based. I don't expect them to be worried about my lawsuit.
Maybe if the lawsuit includes an injunction against VISA/MasterCard/American Express to freeze their account. Or if that's not possible, to seize any future transactions from others being scammed. Constantly switching merchant accounts is considerably more annoying than VoIP phone banks.
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Wouldn't any major name prepaid debit card even if it had no balance on it still get run get their info and give you an opportunity to report it as fraud to the card company so they could investigate and freeze the account so they wouldn't be able to take cards.
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Wouldn't any major name prepaid debit card even if it had no balance on it still get run get their info and give you an opportunity to report it as fraud
I've used those cards for free trials. In my experience, they put through an authorization for, usually, US$1, then cancel the transaction. This requires the card have a small balance of at least that much. One time, the authorization was for the full amount, but it, too, was cancelled. Of course, I immediately cancelled the order and charged something else to the card to zero it out. Never heard from that company, again. The other companies, however, gave me no problems.
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I was thinking that too, although that's only one half of the response. That'd help deter more of the domestic DNC abuse, but the credit card thing will help on the foreign abuse angle.
Foreign DNC violations have only two avenues of approach - identifying the calling boiler rooms (which is mostly pointless) and getting their credit card processors to "fire their customer". (tricky, but doable)
The
Awesome (Score:5, Funny)
In 2020 we're using a robo-lawyer to sue a robo-caller :D
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And we wonder why we have such a problem with carbon pollution.
How many tons of CO2 is needed to power the robo-caller and the robo-lawyers to go back and forth using our infrastructure for.
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How many tons of CO2 is needed to power the robo-caller and the robo-lawyers to go back and forth using our infrastructure for.
We can compensate for that by taking the scammers and sequestering their carbon deep in the ground.
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Almost certainly less CO2 than it takes you to drive to the corner store.
Spitting out legal documents from a template takes roughly zero processing power, and thus roughly zero energy or CO2. Most of the energy cost is in people filing and processing the paperwork - and if the government didn't want that, they shouldn't have written the CAN-SPAM act to require every caller to sue each spammer individually.
EMP (Score:4, Funny)
(Note to pedantic, humorless, too-literal Slashdotters: I am KIDDING, okay? I know you can't send an EMP through the Internet. Ease up already.)
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How about a device that allows you to stab people in the face over internet?
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"Send the phone spiders!"
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Sadly, such a capability would immediately be coopted by the telespammers to destroy your equipment if you a) tell them you're not interested, b) hang up on them, or c) don't answer the phone.
Structural vs tactical defenses (Score:4, Interesting)
Seems like an interesting tactical defense. But I'm based in the UK, and get maybe 1 robocall every couple of months, max. Robocall complaints are really not a thing here (and we complain about a lot, from the weather to bus services to rude staff in shops). So I am curious about the structural differences: why should this be an issue in the US and not the UK?
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Seems like an interesting tactical defense. But I'm based in the UK, and get maybe 1 robocall every couple of months, max. Robocall complaints are really not a thing here (and we complain about a lot, from the weather to bus services to rude staff in shops). So I am curious about the structural differences: why should this be an issue in the US and not the UK?
I get two a day on my cell phone here on the west coast of the US. Most are recordings. About once a week I get a live caller of the type: "Hello my name is Al and I'm from The Internet. We've noticed that your computer is infested with the viruses."
Looking over my call records for the past five days, I get more spam calls than I do legitimate calls. So yeah, it's a problem here. I'm very glad it's not a problem over there.
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I get a lot more than I should on my cell 5 or 6 a week and I don't give out my cell number except to family and co-workers. You would think they would take me off the list after I don't answer 1,000 times because I ignore unknown callers.
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I don't think they think through it that much. It costs them next to nothing to call you, and it actually takes effort to take your number out of the call rotation.
In my case, the moment I hit 60 the number of calls increased dramatically. I'm wondering if AARP or some like organization is selling old folk information. We're supposed to be easier to flummox, you know, and have all those savings, making us prime targets for scams.
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MHO there is no pit in hell deep enough for humans with those kinds of
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Yeah. I want to think that the people who are actually making the calls are just hapless pawns following scripts, not evil like their bosses. But I have no evidence of that.
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Previous conversations on this topic have hinted that a systemic difference between the UK and the US is who pays to connect a phone call. As I recall it, in the UK, the caller pays the per-minute charges to connect to whomever they are calling. In the US, the recipient is paying to have phone service available. In this configuration, spammers have no disincentive to calling as the recipient paid to make the line available.
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Places that have "caller pays" rules in place don't have robocall problems, because the call doesn't go through unless the caller pays to have it placed. The incremental (per call) costs quickly swamp them. No robocaller is going to risk running up a huge phone bill against that small a reward.
Only places that have "callee pays" rules, which includes the US, have robocall problems. The incremental (per call) cost is basically zero. At that point, profitability is just about guaranteed.
I'm in the US. I
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That explanation makes sense. So basically, the carriers have fucked you over. Again. Totally batshit. I'll bet you pay both for taking calls *and* for making calls, as well -- there's no way you'd be able to call an international number for free, for example, surely?
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Oh, at the moment, we are pretty close to the front of the pack for stupid.
What I really want at least for my landline (Score:3)
is a call blocker like the CPR brand callblockers but if you don't meet the white list then you get prompted to press a random key or leave a message. That would at least block the robocalls and allow legit callers a way to bypass.
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I have this....
Several years back I was looking for a call blocker for my landline, since it had started getting irritating amounts of spam calls.
Naturally everything out there was the type where : You press this button and caller iz blocked!!!!
Except, call spoofing. You can press that button a million times and it won't stop a damn thing. Plus.. those type of 'blacklist' devices have a limited memory and once you get past [arbitrary number] just start dropping numbers off.
And, of course - it doesn't actual
BIN blacklisting, and maybe a legal gray area (Score:1)
I like the idea of following the money to the robocaller, but there are practical and theoretical problems.
The practical problem is that DoNotPay credit card BINs [google.com] will quickly get blacklisted, which will neuter the service. It will be interesting to see if DoNotPay finds a way around this.
The theoretical problem is that call recipients would be agreeing to purchase their services: that agreement is essentially a contract that the robocaller might try using in a counter-claim of breach of contract. Witho
yeah right (Score:2)
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Indeed! lol
Those asshats simply do not care about US law. Even if you SOMEHOW do find them, they're ghosts, and there's simply no one to sue. Even if you CAN find them, ID them, and sue them, good luck EVER getting any money from it, regardless what the US law says.
I block 100% of calls from India on my phone, but it doesn't stop them. Since they are all VOIP anyway, they just utilize a US prefex. Often spoofed to my own area code and prefix. This is already illegal. I'm on the Do-not-call registry,
Apple? (Score:2)
Makes no sense for Browder to call out Apple:
Settings -> Phone -> Silence Unknown Callers
Solved my problem with robocalls
Google Voice (Score:1)
Back when I was job hunting, I got as Google Voice number because I wanted to be able to disable it when I found a job. That way I wouldn't continue to get hammered by Indian recruiters that barely speak English, asking me to move across the country for a 6 month contract.
I had Google's "call screening" feature enabled on the line, which forces people to announce who they are, and I get a chance to accept or reject the call before I actually have to talk to the person.
One thing I noticed about that line ..