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Earth Medicine Stats

Will Coronavirus Lockdowns Bring a Drop in Air-Pollution Related Deaths? (forbes.com) 117

Posted by EditorDavid from the sparing-the-air dept.
The World Health Organization believes air pollution kills seven million people each year.

But will this year be different? Forbes reports: The global lockdown inspired by the novel coronavirus, COVID-19, has shuttered factories and reduced travel, slashing lethal pollution including the greenhouse gases that are heating the climate. The lockdown may save more lives from pollution reduction than are threatened by the virus itself, said François Gemenne, director of The Hugo Observatory, which studies the interactions between environmental changes, human migration, and politics.

"Strangely enough, I think the death toll of the coronavirus at the end of the day might be positive, if you consider the deaths from atmospheric pollution," said Gemenne, citing, for example, the 48,000 people who die annually in France because of atmospheric pollution and the more than one million in China... "More than likely the number of lives that would be spared because of these confinement measures would be higher than the number of lives that would be lost because of the pandemic," Gemenne said in an appearance on France 24's The Debate.

The discrepancy in how we react to these divergent threats should give us pause, Gemenne said, to consider why it is that we respond so strongly to one with less lethality and so weakly to one with more.
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Will Coronavirus Lockdowns Bring a Drop in Air-Pollution Related Deaths? More

Will Coronavirus Lockdowns Bring a Drop in Air-Pollution Related Deaths?

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  • Indoor air tends to be much worse than outdoor. Nothing good will come of that.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      What? that's such an arbitrary and broad statement it's literally meaningless. I live rurally but commute to the city each day, believe me, the air in my house is far, far, better than the air in the diesel train on the way to the city, and the car fume filled air in the city.

      Furthermore, because there will be less people travelling, the outdoor air should be of better quality, which in turn means the indoor air should of better quality wherever you are.

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Here in Denmark all new houses are almost completely air tight but equipped with ventilation systems with heat exchanger such that no heating is lost. That way the energy consumption for heating is almost zero compared to say 40 years old houses. The downside is that the air gets extremely dry in the winter. I don't know if dry air is healthier or not. Dry air is bad for my asthma by also reduces growth of dust mides and mold, which is really bad for you.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by kenh ( 9056 )

          That way the energy consumption for heating is almost zero compared to say 40 years old houses.

          Seriously, Denmark has figured out a way to heat homes in cold winter climates with "almost zero" energy consumption? Is there a particular reason they are choosing to not share this amazing technology with the world?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by isj ( 453011 )

            We can't take all the credit. Germans and Swedes were also involved.
            Read more on Passive houses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
            It is basically maximum 15 kWh/m2 pr year.

          • New buildings have very thick insulation - also under the floor. Use 3 layers of glass in the windows. Keeping the house air tight and making the ventilator go through a heat exchanger, the house uses very little energy on heating. Not exactly zero but very little compared with old houses.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Jmc23 ( 2353706 )
            Passivhaus? Netzero? You not knowing it has nothing to do with them not wanting to share. It not being implemented in your country has more to do with YOUR countries capitalism, not their country unwilling to share.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Anonymous Coward

            Seriously, Denmark has figured out a way to heat homes in cold winter climates with "almost zero" energy consumption? Is there a particular reason they are choosing to not share this amazing technology with the world?

            All homes in Denmark are suspended within enormous spherical vacuum dewars covered in specialized reflective coatings to insulate homes from radiative losses.

            Large potassium hydroxide stores are used to remove CO2 buildup in the air from human respiration.

            Specialized fluid loops throughout the home conduct away excess waste heat from electronics, lighting and stoves to prevent the occupants from being cooked alive by their own laptop computers and nightlights.

            All Denmark homes can be heated throughout the e

      • and if you do it right, that is perfectly okay, at least if it is done correctly.

        Department of Redundancy Department, anyone?

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Calydor ( 739835 )

      No one is saying you can't open a friggin' window.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by NFN_NLN ( 633283 )

      Slashdot 1990's = News for Nerds

      Slashdot 2020's = Clickbait for Rubes

      Looks like we have a new tagline...

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by rtb61 ( 674572 )

        Slashdot has always been about ideas and twisting them about and people choosing to do what they will with them, not propaganda. In fact propaganda is targeted pretty quick and played with, trolling those propaganda trolls by attacking their messaging, making them look bad so they get fired, meh.

        These lockdowns look stupidly over the top and seem to reflect an intent to completely shut down the borders of third world countries, using harsh measures to enforce as the virus runs riot in those countries. Crea

      • In Soviet Putinstan, news nerds you!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kenh ( 9056 )

      THIS [who.int] is what the WHO says about indoor air quality and premature deaths:

      Exposure to smoke from cooking fires causes 3.8 million premature deaths each year, mostly in low- and middle-income countries.

      Will Coronavirus quarantines reduce the number of low- and middle-income housholds burning dung to cook with? Probably not.

    • Indoor air tends to be much worse than outdoor. Nothing good will come of that.

      Only if you're some weirdo who locks themselves into some sealed bubble. Otherwise indoor air pollution is merely a multiple of the outdoor air pollution. Also indoor air pollution is only better than *some* outdoor air pollution. If you live in a generally quiet place, or you're talking about night time, then of course you are right. If you're running your fireplace or frying up some steak in an overheated smoking grill pan, then yep stands to reason. However if you're talking about Paris during peak hour

  • Are they real? (Score:2, Troll)

    by Kohath ( 38547 )

    Numbers on spreadsheets will go down. Do they represent real individual persons dead or just some abstract calculation where something else is claimed to be equivalent to a person dying?

    All numbers in news media reports are automatically subject to doubt.

    • Re:Are they real? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by kamapuaa ( 555446 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @04:54PM (#59833200) Homepage

      What the fuck? Do you know what statistical modelling even is? Do you expect the Department of Alternate Realities to tell you who would have been dead if the Corona Virus never happened, or possibly if the Roosevelt was assassinated and the Nazis won WW2?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Kohath ( 38547 )

        Do you think everyone is an expert in statistical modeling? Do you hate the 98+ percent of people who aren't experts in statistical modeling?

        Are you a total asshole? I think we all know the answer to that one.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by Kohath ( 38547 )

        And since you are clearly a total asshole, why would anyone ever believe you're not also a liar who would make up numbers?

        Too bad so many people are like you. Discussions used to be a thing people had. Now it's just jerks like you yelling at the world.

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by LynnwoodRooster ( 966895 )

        I know what statistical modeling is. I also see it highly abused and misused nearly daily in a wide variety of fields.

        His complaint is real; are the numbers from a model with only a few points of data? Or the data itself? Does the model use the Gompertz curve [wikipedia.org] or does it assume a non-applicable Gaussian or exponential curve?

        And given that we just lived through 3 years of constant drum-beating by the media, claiming events that were 100% fabricated (and known as such as early as we first heard about th

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by j-beda ( 85386 )

          And given that we just lived through 3 years of constant drum-beating by the media, claiming events that were 100% fabricated (and known as such as early as we first heard about them) were "rock solid" - his healthy skepticism of the media is entirely warranted.

          Which 100% fabricated things are you talking about? Is this some sort of code for those "in the know"?

          I could maybe understand something thinking lots of things have been overblown, but "100% fabricated" is SUCH a strong statement, that I really have to question the intellectual honesty of someone who would make such a claim.

          Or have I missed something? None of the following seem to be "100% fabricated" in my option, though some might not seem to have been deserving of all the attention they were given. Are

          • Oh Pizzagate is real, believe me. But it's all a double-bluff.

            The real story they're trying to hide is that the campaign workers were embezzling the donation money to get pizza.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by j-beda ( 85386 )

              Oh Pizzagate is real, believe me. But it's all a double-bluff.

              The real story they're trying to hide is that the campaign workers were embezzling the donation money to get pizza.

              Pizza is always a legitimate campaign expense. Democracy without pizza is worse than a commie dictatorship. The soviets couldn't make decent pizza, and neither can the Chinese. 'nuff said.

               

    • Air pollution is measured. We'll find out if it goes down significantly, or insignificantly.

    • The discrepancy in how we react to these divergent threats should give us pause, Gemenne said, to consider why it is that we respond so strongly to one with less lethality and so weakly to one with more.

      We put a lot of money into avoiding all of these threats! I personally have spent hundreds or thousands of dollars (over years) getting my car smog checked repeatedly (and on occasion fixed) , to make sure it is up to air pollution standards. Do I regret this? No, I like clean air.

      We spend a lot of money each year to prevent pollution.

      We spend a lot of money each year to prevent the flu.

      We spend a lot of money each year to prevent traffic deaths.

      For coronavirus, we're putting a lot of effort and mon

    • The death tolls include "84-year old grandma with multiple pre-existing conditions that died of a lung inflammation and just happened to also have Coronavirus". That is almost a literal quote from my country (Germany).

      I also saw counts include deaths whether they were actually attributable to and tested for coronavirus or not.

      Combine the two, and you get large overestimates.

      Not saying it isn't killing some weak people too, or that it isn't a problem, but no matter how many it kills, those other things that

  • Deaths due to automobile accidents (Score:4, Interesting)

    by TuballoyThunder ( 534063 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @04:50PM (#59833188)
    Is likely to go down. And that is a cause that is more measurable than the nebulous "death due to air pollution."

    • Re:Deaths due to automobile accidents (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:00PM (#59833224)

      Its not nebulous if you've never had to deal with serious respiratory disorders before.

      As a kid I had serious respiratory problems caused by Whooping cough and asthma. Whenever I would visit my grandparents house in a town that had an oil refinery I'd end up having serious asthma to the point where I ended in ICU a number of times. It was always during the drive into town where the sulphur and shit in the air would be so thick you could see it.

      This was largely solved in the late 80s as emission controls forced BP to put filters on to remove most of the crap (There was Acid rain before that, it was fucked up. On a winters day, the rain would literally eat the paint on cars).

      Unfortunately whilst here in Australia we solved a *lot* of it. I still can't go to Sydney without having to double up on my preventatives. And Sydney is by world standards.a clean city.

      In parts of China where legislations still catching up to reality its exceptionally bad. I think we all remember the Bejing Olympics where they had to shut down Industry for a few weeks before hand to stop international guests from having to be exposed to the utter garbage quality air. China IS doing a lot of work to fix this, and they've actually been making serious steps towards the CO2 stuff too, they know the score, they've lived it.

      I can't speak for the United States. I've heard conflicting reports from Americans.

      • I didn't say respiratory issues aren't real, I stated they are not easily measured when compared to deaths due to automobile accidents. Almost all those "x deaths due to (pollution, radiation, sun exposure, sugar, etc)" are based on statistical models, which are usually used for public policy purposes. For example, they are used to help answer questions like "should we ban sugar and substitute it with artificial sweeteners" by comparing the outcomes predicted by the models.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by ludux ( 6308946 )
          They are in fact very easy measured. Do you know what statistical models even are? Look at hospital reports.
          • But I don't think they're going to be so easily measured. First, I'm not an expert here, admittedly, so apologies if I'm wildly wrong. That said, I don't believe that deaths due to air pollution are a sudden condition. Aren't they pretty much a long term condition that happens over years? You take damage to your lungs year after year and eventually they fail. I would figure the reduction in air pollution reduces death some, but does it over a 20-40 year period. For the most part, people that have already t

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by shilly ( 142940 )

              There are long-term effects, but there are plenty of acute exacerbations that happen pretty immediately for people with asthma and COPD, some of which are deadly.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by kenh ( 9056 )

            How would your statistical analysis handle a person with coronavirus that dies of a gunshot wound? Is that a coronavirus death? How about someone that has corona virus and suffers a fatal heart attack? I could go on, the point is I suspect that current public policy is to count the two deaths as gunshot and coronary deaths AND coronavirus deaths. Before you just assume they would act differently, look it up - research it. People don't die of AIDS/HIV, they die of AIDS/HIV related complications (contracting

            • It's probably a wash. I've heard people from the USA say they heard reported admitting some covid deaths were mislabeled as flu deaths. Also, local labs actively prevented from testing samples by the CDC. Multiple stories of that.

              Here's a recent story (not the same one I mentioned before)

              https://time.com/5801790/coron... [time.com]

              hen employees of Massachusetts biotech company Biogen were informed in late February that several among them had been diagnosed with COVID-19 after a company-wide meeting, they immediately went to hospitals for testing, but were turned away. Because of the scarce number of tests available in the U.S., doctors, upon the advice of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), were following strict protocols for who could be tested: people who had symptoms and had traveled to a country where cases were endemic, or had been in close contact with someone who had tested positive. Most of the Biogen employees didn’t have any of the symptoms of fever, cough or difficult breathing that are the hallmarks of COVID-19, but understandably wanted to know if they had been exposed.

              So, people who are sick and/or dying in the USA from respiratory conditions are routinely NOT test for coronavirus. So this idea that people are over-inflating the deaths because everyone w

            • You certainly can die purely of AIDS. Its rare, but it happens. Once its completely shut down the immune system, the virus can go completely haywire and just kill things. However yes, its usually something else that lands the killing blow. The catch is though, the things people die of are often almost non existant outside of HIV. Particular cancers (iew Kaposi's sarcoma) that seem to only exist in AIDS patients (implying they turn up all the time in healthy people and then get rapidly killed off by the imm

          • and how are you going to divorce those stats from the people that died of covid instead of pollution as those same respiratory issues make the high risk of fatality for covid. So deaths may go down because they instead died of covid. you have a very high overlap of a weakness that makes you vulnerable to both.
      • Did the person die from pneumonia? Or from asthma? Or from air pollution? Lung cancer, or diesel fumes? It's hard to break those apart, and levels of "air pollution" that do not bother 99% of the population shouldn't be considered the "cause of death" for someone who suffers from respiratory disorders.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by hermi ( 809034 )

      And that is a cause that is more measurable than the nebulous "death due to air pollution."

      Good one

    • If you look at how many die in an area with $problem, compared to an area without $problem, and account for other factors by making sure they are otherwise equal, or use further comparisons to other areas, the difference is a very clear number. I don't know why you'd think it is nebulous ...

      The only problem I see with such numbers, is that it ignores harm done that does not result in death. Especially when there is a lot of suffering but no deaths.

  • ... automotive accidents. And specifically in the USA, deaths from gun violences (at least until there are riots and chaos arise from the epidemic.)

    • And specifically in the USA, deaths from gun violences (at least until there are riots and chaos arise from the epidemic.)

      Coronavirus is a boon for economists and social scientists. There will be a cottage industry of papers comparing 2019 and 2020 to see what the effects were.

      In the US, many gun deaths are related to domestic violence. With people cooped up at home under stressful conditions, domestic violence deaths may go up. Crime may (maybe! Not saying for sure) go up as some low-income people have hours cut and/or lose their jobs and turn to crime. Burglary may go down as burglars stay away from homes which are more like

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by kenh ( 9056 )

        In the US, many gun deaths are related to domestic violence.

        Wrong, in the US many gun deaths are suicides, not "domestic violence" - two-thirds to be exact. [pewresearch.org] Wonder why our gun death rates are so much higher than other countries? Because in the US a suicidal person can more easily get a gun than in another country, but when you look, the suicide rates in the US and other countries are fairly similar, the difference is that outside the US more people walk into traffic, step in front of a train, jump off a bridge/building, intentionally overdose or slit their wrists.

  • will it go down? sure. given those that tend to die of air pollution already have underlying illnesses or weaknesses they will instead die of covid-19. Car Accidents should drop, perhaps violent crime as less partying and drinking but may be offset by people fighting over food. On the whole any drop anywhere will be MORE than offset by deaths elsewhere.

  • Most likely (Score:3)

    by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:03PM (#59833230)

    But mostly because COVID gets those that could be killed by breathing first.

  • Wrong metric (Score:3)

    by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:10PM (#59833252)
    Because shuttering all those factories means productivity decreases. Meaning standard of living will drop (everything that's consumed to raise the standard of living must first be produced). Yes you can live longer if you isolate yourself in a fallout shelter subsisting on a starvation diet of canned foods, and never going putting yourself at risk by going outside. But your quality of life will be very low. So overall deaths or death rate by itself isn't the best metric to be using here.

    When appraising things like deaths from air pollution and car accidents - factors which are intricately linked with productivity - it needs to be done on the basis of deaths per per capita GDP. That compares death rate against standard of living. If the death rate goes up but the deaths per GDP goes down, that means standard of living has increased more than the death rate. Basically, we're packing more enjoyment into a shorter lifespan. Which is probably a worthwhile trade-off. Especially if you consider that necessities like food and shelter scale only with lifespan, not necessarily with GDP (you can choose to buy more exotic foods and homes if you wish). So in the case of shorter lifespan with higher productivity, necessities constitute a smaller percentage of your lifetime expenses. Meaning more of your expenses are for fun, relaxation, and enjoyment.

    The changes we need to focus on are things which decrease risk without dropping productivity (or with a comparatively small drop in productivity). e.g. Telecommuting. People can still get their work done (i.e. generate productivity), but without the risk of driving to/from work, and without generating all that pollution from commuting.

    • Re:Wrong metric (Score:5, Insightful)

      by jeti ( 105266 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:16PM (#59833264)
      When consumerism is more important than life itself.

      • If the USA was a corporation, that'd be its tagline. :)

      • All life consumes. It's part of being alive.

        What we choose to consume is definitely skewed far away from need in many cases, and often even from what makes us happy, but we all have to be consumers.

    • You're on the right track.

      I've long thought we should be measuring some combination of quality and intensity of life and expected future lives when making public decisions. It is difficult because the specific elements that define it are different from one culture to the next or even one person to the next, but such a measurement, even if imperfect, could correct many of our public-level decisions.

      Reducing productivity is a severe problem because it reduces our ability to fight this and other problems. Soci

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        You're going to be so psyched when you hear about QALYs.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kenh ( 9056 )

      The changes we need to focus on are things which decrease risk without dropping productivity (or with a comparatively small drop in productivity). e.g. Telecommuting. People can still get their work done (i.e. generate productivity), but without the risk of driving to/from work, and without generating all that pollution from commuting.

      Can toilet paper factory workers telecommute? Fruit pickers? Slaughter house operators? Grocery store clerks?

      People sitting in their den coding the next great app will generate money in the future, but much/most of the important work in society is done by people that can't telecommute.

  • All this leads to someone positing that killing all humans will improve the quality of life for the chosen few.... all organized by the few B-B-Billionaires with their own space fleets

  • If nobody goes outside, there's nobody to mug, those people will die from hunger.

  • "why it is that we respond so strongly to one with less lethality and so weakly to one with more." This is a bit like asking why have fire fighters stop a house from burning while theres some other constant threat. Because if you dont stop one house burning soon your whole city will be burning.

  • No! (Score:3)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:28PM (#59833270)

    First, because of Betteridge, second, because the preppers in the neighborhood are all testing their Diesel generators in their bunkers, while soaking 20 year old dried beans.

  • If COVID were allowed to replicate unchecked, it would conservatively result in 25% of the world population, 1%, or 20 million deaths. That's not counting the deaths due to the overloading of the medical system. It could easily be triple that, or 60 million deaths just from people dying for lack of ventilators, let alone the other treatement not available. So the fact that people are willing to self-quarantine and therefore the death toll is lower than that saved by air pollution, car crashes, etc. seems so

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kenh ( 9056 )

      If COVID were allowed to replicate unchecked, it would conservatively result in 25% of the world population, 1%, or 20 million deaths.

      What? Trying to square 25% with 1% of world population equaling 20 million.

  • The city power grid stays on.
    People need to get to "work".
    Farmers need to work on their food production for this year and next year.
    Factory production lines need to stay working to make products everyone needs everyday ..

    While a lot of good people are in hospital and wait for treatment.

  • Pollution definitely reduced by Coronavirus (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kbahey ( 102895 ) on Sunday March 15, 2020 @05:49PM (#59833304) Homepage

    There is irrefutable evidence that the shutdowns due to the Coronavirus have reduced pollution.

    See the satellite images over China [bbc.com] and Italy [washingtonpost.com].

    Will this reduce deaths due to pollution? I am skeptical, because the effect of pollutants is cumulative, and a reduction of two months or so, vs. years of exposure may not be that significant.

  • I even more confidently predict we'll see a flood of papers over the next decade analyzing the data.

  • Shouldn't flu deaths drop, too since everything we're doing should be effective to stop influenza as well?

    I actually wouldn't be surprised if Covid-19 saves lives overall.

    • Not just that. The remaining people who were likely to get infected and die of flu this year are much more likely to get and die from COVID-19. Just because it's spreading so much more easily and hits many of the same vulnerable people.

  • Introverts may not be affected as much, however most people are going to go nuts if they can't meet other people in person for a long time. The lockdowns absolutely need to be limited to the medically necessary time. If you think that we're seeing proof that we can limit our consumption, you're deluding yourself. This cannot and will not last.
    • How many spouses require the relief of being separated for some portion of every day to maintain sanity? Or safety?

    • If cant, if you give over your rights in the name of the "Safety" of a police state.

    • Lots of us are still going to work. And we're still shopping. Gotta eat. Im going to the cell phone repair place because I don't have a temperature controlled heat gun and I use my phone all day at work, and the camera lens is damaged. Italians may be on lockdown, but lots of us aren't. And since I'm hourly I'm going to keep working as long as I can because hip hip fucking hooray for capitalism.

  • People who usually die from bad air will be the first to die from the virus.

  • France has ordered a lock down of a majority of shops, schools and tourist attractions but along with supermarkets and pharmacies, tobacconists have been allowed to stay open. :-)

    • so what, even more die in France each year from tobacco, and twice as much from alcohol.

      saying corvid19 is a good thing for lowering pollution is something i'd expect from greentard sociopath

    • Don't tobacconists in France have other functions, like selling "tax stamps"?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by godrik ( 1287354 )

        yeah, "le tabac" essentially is a book store, news store, basic supply store (though typically nothing you would call groceries), and also sells tobacco products.

  • I only know the data for my home, Germany, but apparently, Corona kills a higher ratio of people compared to the *average* of flu, but flu season 2018 killed 25,000 people, and Corona still has a looong way to go, to get to those numbers.

    We shall see, is all I can say.

    I'm just sad that horrible pandemic isn't completely eradicated... You know, that pandemic called homo "sapiens". ;)

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by kenh ( 9056 )

      The death numbers for the "regular" flu are deaths after people get vaccines, COVID-19 deaths will run rampant because we have nothing other than good hygiene and social distance to prevent the spread of the virus, and many, many people on the planet fail tu understand the need to cover their sneezes, clean their hands after they wipe their butt, or stay home from work when they feel sick.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Cases in Germany are doubling every three days (2.4x actually). Deaths will follow suit (also doubled in the last three days).

      Unless Germany gets its testing and isolation response to the necessary Asian levels, you'll only have to wait 29 days to find out.

    • STOP comparing this to the flu! It's totally irresponsible! Mis-information is literally going to kill people because they are too dumb to put a mask on or stay home.

      When the flu happens, it doesn't overload our hospitals. The flu also isn't air borne, making it much easier to control. If you catch the flu and are young and healthy and just need IV and a little O2, you there's enough capacity at the hospital for you to get it an live a few years and then catch it again. SARS-CoV-2 is airborne and can ae

  • There are so many things to factor in like:

    On the positive (because of lockdowns):
    - less pollution
    - less accidents of all kinds
    - less transmission of all diseases, not just COVID-19

    On the negative
    - COVID-19 (obviously)
    - mental health / suicides (all that anxiety and isolation won't do much good)
    - economic problems, many people will be without a job for a month or more, and they still need to eat...
    - limited health care for everyone, not just people infected with COVID-19

    And that not counting the recovery ph

  • I have to wonder what effect this will have on the use of public transit versus personal vehicles. There could be more greenhouse gasses if enough people decide that the personal health benefits from less sharing outweigh the other benefits of public transportation.

    I keep wanting to imagine miniature electric cars that link up to form trains.

    • It would probably be cleverer to just load miniature electric cars onto trains. That way you get away from using rubber tires on long trips. It also solves the self driving problem.

      • When I think of this, I imagine passenger compartments that self load onto light rail train cars from the side. They'd be too tall in relation to their length for much stability or forward impact crash protection, so they'd have to disconnect from being part of a car or bus to join the train car. I suppose it could work sort of like a kickstarter project. If there's enough people to subscribe to the train car and have auto frames for use at either end of the train trip, then a set of pods could be sold. If

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by godrik ( 1287354 )

      Frankly I'd love to take public transportation, but the options where I live are so bad that it is not a reasonable option.

      • When I think of things that make it bad what comes to mind are the accessibility, cost, speed, route, reliability and accommodation. Is it a bunch of these things that are bad where you are, or just a couple?
  • It's not very easy to compare the two. The pollution deaths are spread over the year, while coronavirus will hopefully be short term, after which the pollution will go to the "business as usual" level. So the coronavirus cleans air for a short time period, and probably during that time the density of deaths over time unit could be larger than gain of lives due to pollution decrease.
  • While avoiding critical illness priority, The accompanying economic downturn could be very damaging. The pandemic might be leveling in China, which is far from over, but most other countries increase with significant disruption in economic activity. Henny Penny gains momentum, rising twitz #GFC2.

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