ICE Bars New Foreign Students From US If Classes Are Fully Online (axios.com) 150
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Axios: U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement issued a release on Friday barring new international students from entering the U.S. for their fall terms if their courses are entirely online. "In accordance with March 2020 guidance, nonimmigrant students in new or initial status after March 9 will not be able to enter the U.S. to enroll in a U.S. school as a nonimmigrant student for the fall term to pursue a full course of study that is 100 percent online," ICE said Friday. "Additionally, designated school officials should not issue a Form I-20 to a nonimmigrant student in new or initial status who is outside of the U.S. and plans to take classes at an [Student and Exchange Visitor Program]-certified educational institution fully online."
Several U.S. colleges and universities have announced plans to hold most or all classes online because of the coronavirus pandemic. Many universities rely on tuition from international students, and the directive could dissuade some foreign students from enrolling this coming semester. The rule won't affect international students already enrolled at American colleges and universities.
Several U.S. colleges and universities have announced plans to hold most or all classes online because of the coronavirus pandemic. Many universities rely on tuition from international students, and the directive could dissuade some foreign students from enrolling this coming semester. The rule won't affect international students already enrolled at American colleges and universities.
Wasnt this rescinded? (Score:2)
I think the colleges went to court. International students pay full tuition which makes it possible for many US colleges to operate.
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It's the same human rights violation as the other case though: discrimination based on nation of origin - an explicitly protected class.
So much wrong with this...
1) Nation of origin is not a protected class. Race is a protected class. Please don't conflate the two. This isn't only allowing Germany but disallowing Japan. This is disallowing all foreign students.
2) This isn't even a human rights violation, as they can easily obtain college education from their own country or possibly another country.
I don't agree with the action taken by ICE, but lets not go full retard here.
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Yes it is. [justice.gov]
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Immigration and visas are not a "human right" in any court or constitution that I know of. It's a legal privilege, one extended as a mercy for refugees or as an investment for scholars and business people.
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I assume you're referring primarily to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which was a quite amazing law and should be taught as a vital part of American legal and social history. It's fascinating law, I highly recommend reading the actual law rather than an analysis of it. It's visible at https://www.govinfo.gov/app/de... [govinfo.gov] .
This protected class is _related_ and a useful guideline in evaluating the enforcement of visas and immigration policy. But they don't make immigration a right nor do they make denying it a hu
Re:Wasnt this rescinded? (Score:5, Insightful)
From the standpoint of student tuition, it shouldn't make any difference to the college or foreign student. If the coursework is 100% online, it makes no difference whether the student does it from their home country, or from an apartment in the U.S. Either the online-only coursework is worth the full tuition and it makes no difference to the student, or it's not worth it and the school should be refunding some of the tuition. If the latter, then yeah colleges are going to have to figure out how to get by on less income. Just like all the other businesses in the country dealing with the pandemic. Nothing entitles them to an exemption from the laws of pandemic economics.
From a political standpoint, you can argue that this policy discourages students who wished to attend a U.S. college partly to get to live in and possibly gain citizenship in the U.S. Which defeats the purpose of these visas existing. The student visa and H-1B visa programs were created for the express purpose of attracting talented and skilled foreigners to immigrate and become U.S. citizens, to counteract a brain drain in the 1970s and 1980s (there was a net emigration of talented and skilled U.S. workers to other countries). But I can't think of any valid economic argument against this policy.
Re:Wasnt this rescinded? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Wasnt this rescinded? (Score:4)
Do your classes from the Bahamas. Same time zone. Liberal tourist visa policies. Take your classes from the beach. Get a US degree without having to deal with US cost of living.
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As nice as this idea is the Bahamas have a damn high cost of living, much higher than the USA.
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Replace with appropriate Caribbean island with low cost of living. Though I wonder how a tourist destination has high cost of living. Tourism depends on cheap labor and you dont get cheap labor in high cost of living areas.
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Replace with appropriate Caribbean island with low cost of living.
Good luck finding one.
Though I wonder how a tourist destination has high cost of living. Tourism depends on cheap labor and you dont get cheap labor in high cost of living areas.
That is not even remotely true. Tourism actually heavily drives up cost of living. Tourism brings in rich foreigners willing to spend good money. Tourism puts pressure on accommodation and raises land value and house prices. Tourism increases restaurant demands, raises food prices and raises service costs (e.g. go to a restaurant in a tourist area vs out of town).
You can see that in many classic examples: Greece has a very low cost of living, oh except Athens, and capital cities on the
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Mass tourism and boutique tourism are different animals. Mass tourism is built on thousands of cheap hotel maids, dishwashers, janitors, drivers, landscapers. Not many high cost cities have tourist economies. I am not saying there are no tourists in high cost cities but the tourism sector is hardly ever more than 5% of the economy in say a San Francisco or a New York whereas in a true tourist destination the tourism sector can often be 90% of the economy.
Maybe the Caribbean is a Boutique tourism destination
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You don't understand - the school campus is closed, there are no on-campus classes, it makes no sense to pay money to be in an apartment/dorm/fraternity/sorority next to a closed campus.
You can't go to class.
You can't go to the library.
There are no in-person lectures.
The cafeteria is closed.
The dorms are shuttered.
The Student Center is closed.
There are no sports.
These regulations ONLY APPLY if the foreign student is trying to get a visa to be next to a closed campus.
If the labs are open, if they have even a
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But I can't think of any valid economic argument against this policy.
Among the many arguments against this is the fact that college isn't limited to taking classes. There's hands-on experience in the laboratory, there's face to face consultations with faculty and TAs, there's an environment which encourages learning, there are your peers who are going through the same things and with whom you may collaborate, etc. All of this can be done within social distancing rules, even if they're not packing a lot of people into classrooms.
If you're only interested in economic argume
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Everything you just mentioned can be done on zoom whether you are in NYC or London or Moscow except the hands on. Well, no one is getting hands on with the campus closed.
Maybe they can all go live in Puerto Rico and be online students. Pretty sure they have a time zone in common with USA and it's certainly got to be cheaper to live their then most USA cities.
Go live in Mexico and be an online student. Fuck, pay more and go to Canada for all I care.
It is worst for the local economy (Score:2)
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Your analysis is flawed.
Student must pay for food, housing, other services, disposable income, party , books, etc... etc... All that money is gone if you state the student for online course must stay in his home country, so not only the University suffer. IMO for a president which pretend to be business oriented, to miss that is utterly funny.
Harvard will be 100% virtual for at least the fall semester - will every US student attending Harvard virtually pack up their belongings and head to Cambridge to rent an apartment, arrange for internet service, stock a kitchen and settle into their new apartment knowing the campus and every facility on it are closed?
Why would you do that? The dorms are closed, the cafeterias are closed, where will the on-campus students live?
At home, accessing their classes on-line.
And any returning
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Umm, what part of Online only don't you understand. Most of the Americans they were on campus are now at home with their parents. They aren't in apartments down the street. So nothing about the local college communities matters when you talk about foreign students showing up or not, because no one is showing up.
Hence if you aren't already in the country, you have zero reason to come here if the main focus of your coming is online only.
It's like the entire set of people arguing for foreign students to come l
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Many universities rely on tuition from international students,
International students pay full tuition which makes it possible for many US colleges to operate.
The difference between a foreign student's tuition bill and a US citizen's tuition bill is zero, as far as revenue collection is concerned.
Domestic (US Citizen) students pay published tuition rate, which is lowered by an amount equal to any federal monies the school collects.
International students do not have the federal government subsidies, so they pay the published tuition rate plus they pay an amount equal to any federal monies the school otherwise would have collected.
Both students pay the same amount.
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You have no idea of how US colleges operate. Instate tuition is 50% of out of state tuition. Foreign students are also not eligible for any of the grants and scholarships the college makes from its own funds. Colleges are not paid any "monies" by the federal govt. Federal govt may pay certain grants to students who then use it to pay their already reduced in-state tuition. But the in-state tuition would be much higher if there were not foreign students paying the out-of-state tuition.
Further foreign student
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It was rescinded for existing students, not new ones.
Re: Wasnt this rescinded? (Score:2)
Are you with the colleges? Or the students?
I can see how colleges that were selling an American experience rather than an American degree donâ(TM)t like these rules.
But as a potential foreign student I mostly see improved scalability and the potential for lower prices for me to get an American degree.
Easy Answer (Score:2)
Just make some bulls**t class for foreign students to take in person, and offer it with one student to a classroom, spread across the entire campus. Make it count for credit, but not count towards your degree program. Let the faculty distribute handouts physically to every room, so that there can be some legitimate reason for the students to be there, and then teach it from the comfort of their office desks. And you're done.
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Or just do labs, just give everyone a hazmat suit.
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This is the answer. Come up with some classes that require unusual but reasonably priced lab equipment that the students can't get access to at home. Then you have a legitimate reason why they need to be here.
Basket Weaving 101 (Score:2)
So Basket Weaving 101 but using Cannabis leaves - controlled substance hence the lab has to be done in a secure location.
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I suspect that would be a popular class.
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Or they could just open up the campus. You really are trying to hard - the issue is 100% virtual, 80% virtual, and a PE class in-person is fine,
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It doesn't even have to be unusual. Fume hoods, centrifuges, stirrers, microscopes, incubators, Western-Blott systems are hardly unusual, but who has space at home for all that? Electrical engineering on the other hand requires expensive high end equipment - signal generators, vector network analyzers, spectrum analyzers, oscilloscopes. High end oscilloscopes can cost in excess of $400k.
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Even a bunsen burner. You can get one on eBay for about £10, but getting a gas line installed to use it is not so easy.
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Even a bunsen burner. You can get one on eBay for about £10, but getting a gas line installed to use it is not so easy.
Seriously stupid comment - you can't figure out how to get a gas line installed in your house?
You are trying too hard, to get new international students on campus, all universities need to do is offer a class, any class, in their course work on campus - no need for exceptional hardware requirements to "justify" student visas, just open up a classroom for American Lit 101 with an in-class option, and you are good.
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The local building code doesn't allow me to have a gas line installed in the type of property I live in.
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But you forget, the issue is the universities ae planning on keeping their campus closed, only opening say the science labs and only for international students would be seen as extortionist and possibly discriminatory. Kinda like if the school said "we have a special class, offered only to black students, and unlike every other class you have to be on campus to attend, and BTW it doesn't count toward their graduation." Its obviously wrong when you use the word "black", but what about "French", or "African",
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Of course, the class would also be pass-fail, and wouldn't count towards your GPA, either. The decision of whether or not to actually attend the class is, as always, left up to the discretion of the student. And no one has ever failed the class. Now do you understand?
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So in your mind the university, which has closed it's campus out of an abundance of concern about COVID-19 will ask international students to meet in a classroom for a pointless class, putting their health at risk and pointing out the school could open, but chose not to (if it's safe for foreign students, why isn't it safe for US students?).
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I suspect there are laws against creating sham classes to get around federal visa regulations - and the penalty is a loss of federal assistance, acces to federal money for research projects, etc.
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Prove it's a sham. The class is offered. The facilities are provided. The students attend (or skip, as students are wont to do), and the professor assigns a grade based on the work that the student has turned in. It meets the legal criterial for visa requirements, because it is a class that is offered only on-site. Neither the reasons for the decision to offer it only on-site, nor the nature of the class are up to the federal government to second-guess.
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You might be surprised how many foreigners speak better English and know more about the USA than the natives do.
Unlike the natives they also know about foreign countries, speak other languages, etc.
Re: Easy Answer (Score:2)
ICE Bars (Score:2)
What is the law? That's what should be enforced. (Score:2)
If the law should be changed then Pelosi and McConnell need to fix it. That is what they were elected to do. It's the President's job to enforce the law.
If the law is unclear then go from there.
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Trump is enforcing existing law, a law passed by congress and signed by Bush'43.
No to Distance Education (Score:2)
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The US addiction is networking and keg parties.
Education is about fourth or fifth on the list of priorities for most students, getting a degree from the right school, knowing the right people, those are the motivators.
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Lab work is very difficult to do well remotely, for those of us who studied the physical sciences. Wholesale cheating also becomes much more difficult to prevent with online courses.
Stupid policy (Score:2)
Foreign students are wealthy, they bring money into the country. They pay taxes, they don't steal jobs and they are a GDP net benefit to the country.
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Other then expenditure taxes, like sales tax, what taxes do they pay if they aren't stealing jobs? Normally if you don't have a job, you aren't paying taxes beyond sales tax. People that have jobs or otherwise invest money into the market pay taxes.
They do bring money into the local markets, but only when the local market is open for business. Once the schools are open for business, we will welcome them back into the country. Until then, it's safer for them to remain at home.
Let me see if I have this straight (Score:2)
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Well basically Republicans want to prevent all immigration because they don't want foreigners while Democrats think there should be reasonable paths to immigration, among them are student visas
Makes sense to me. (Score:2)
It makes sense if you are a foreign student that currently resides in a foreign country. You are an incoming student that wasn't here in the spring. During this time of coronavirus, travel is indeed restricted. If the university you are attending is online only for the fall, you are literally missing nothing but the chance to catch coronavirus.
As for the foreign students already here; they are already here. They should stay in place and do online school like everyone else. No reason for them to take corona
Why? (Score:2)
Please explain why this is a bad thing. And if you're one of those people who believe we shouldn't have any immigration control, please don't bother. The US already allows more immigrants than any other nation on the planet. If you want to come to the US, get a visa, or immigrate through the legal process like my grandparents and my wife...I did the paperwork, it's not that hard.
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International travellers (Score:2)
Re:International travellers (Score:4, Funny)
Something something China Virus.
Example (real, current statistics) (Score:4, Insightful)
China resident chance of being an active COVID case = 0.0000169 % ( active cases / population = 243 / 1,439,323,776 ) July 24, 2020
China resident going through pre-travel and post-travel screening and quarantine. Assume that screening + 14 day quarantine somehow misses allows out into US general population 30% of active-case inbound travellers.
Therefore, chance of a traveller from China bringing active case through screening and quarantine to US population is currently, wait for it:
0.00000506 %
which is roughly 1 / 120,000 of the chance of the average American already having an active case.
Or put another way, the foreign student from China is 120,000 times more likely to get infected by an American after arrival in USA as they are to infect an American as they come out of quarantine.
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LOL, you actually believe the official numbers from China? Probably believe their banking system is rock-solid, there is no issues with the Three Gorges Damn, Uighurs want to be re-educated, and The China GDP is well north of $20 trillion.
The numbers are whatever Beijing decrees them to be, reality is whatever the CCP decrees it to be.
Yes I believe the order of magnitude (Score:4, Insightful)
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If a number isn't 100.000% accurate. You get to just substitute any number at all that you feel you want.
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Do I believe the US numbers?
They have both followed much the same trajectory as countries who's numbers I do trust.
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First problem with this is conflating cases and infections. Active cases ~ 70k right now. Active infections nobody knows. If that's what you meant by 2 million, definitely needs a source or an explanation. While it's certainly higher than the 70k, count it as pretty unlikely that it is *thirty times* that much. I would say 10x is pretty fair for estimation purposes. 700k/330M = 0.0021
Second problem is choosing one of few countries you can depend on to lie about their numbers as a source of comparison.
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USA: 2,027,479
China: 243
source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
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Christ that is the stupidest thing I've seen in years!
US resident chance of being an active COVID case = 0.626 % ( active cases / population = 2,071,532 / 331,129, 317 )
China resident chance of being an active COVID case = 0.0000169 % ( active cases / population = 243 / 1,439,323,776 ) July 24, 2020
You seriously believe there are only 243 currently cases of COVID-19 in CHina, yet you believe there are over 2 million Americans infected RIGHT NOW, not cumulative since the outbreak started?
Perhaps, just just perhaps, the Chinese Government, which has lied repeatedly about the COVID-19 outbreak from the start, and literally welded people into their apartment buildings for two weeks in Wuhan, is maybe lying about their infection rate?
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Active cases
USA: 2,027,479
China: 243
source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
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Re: And this is totally not because Trump is racis (Score:3)
No...
It only takes a few to spread Covid-19 far and wide.
To quotes my daughter... if 10 people come to a party and one has glitter, how many people have glitter at then end of the party? They all do!
Re: And this is totally not because Trump is raci (Score:2)
They all got it, yet not all were infected?
Dang, thatâ(TM)s a leap into the absurd
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Just know that by letting in foreigners at this point, the US average infection rate would go down, because foreigners from almost all other countries are infected at a lower rate than Americans are. Doh!
Sadly true, but it's not simply about covid-19 infections. We've lost that particular battle, as evidenced by our administration's 180 degree turn on masks, and the rescheduling of public events.
Letting in the foreigners with the contingency that must attend traditional classes is more of a tip of the hat to "school must be restarted', whatever the cost. IMHO, although the White House isn't asking me about this personally, another boneheaded strategy deployed by the POTUS that continues to ensure rising inf
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Letting in the foreigners with the contingency that must attend traditional classes is more of a tip of the hat to "school must be restarted', whatever the cost. IMHO,
You understand the regulation about foreign students getting visas to attend virtual/correspondence classes Pre-dates not only the Trump administration but also the Obam administration, it was a law passed by congress and signed into law by President Bush'43 in response to the 9/11 terrorists that fraudulently enrolled in correspondence classes to get a US student visa, right?
You understand that the Trump administration actually issued a waiver for the spring and summer semesters, allowing foreign students
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You understand the regulation about foreign students getting visas to attend virtual/correspondence classes Pre-dates not only the Trump administration but also the Obam administration, it was a law passed by congress and signed into law by President Bush'43 in response to the 9/11 terrorists that fraudulently enrolled in correspondence classes to get a US student visa, right?
I do now.
Rather than run around on capital hill with their hair on fire, why doesn't Nancy Pelosi pass a bill rescinding the existing law? Probably because she agrees with it, and sees political advantage in pretending this is something Trump dreamed up on his lonesome.
I'm not one of the partisan folks. Generally, I blame the idiots on both sides of the aisle for the condition of things. I'm no prouder of the job Pelosi has done than I am of the way 45 conducts himself.
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Uhh, what? How does blocking foreign students from entering the USA further our covid problems? That literally makes no sense. If anything, blocking new students from entering the country is keeping them safe from us.
Conflation (Score:2)
Just know that by letting in foreigners at this point, the US average infection rate would go down, because foreigners from almost all other countries are infected at a lower rate than Americans are.
You appear to be comparing infection rates without looking at percentages. An infection rate of 100 new cases a day in a population of 50,000,000 is concerning, but not a huge deal. An infection rate of 100 new cases a day in a population of 1,000,000 *is* a huge deal. If you see comparisons by country that don't factor in population, you need to ask yourself why raw numbers are being looked at without factoring in population. By raw numbers, the US has, probably, the highest rate of new cases. If you look
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Everything your post is counterfactual.
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Every returning student is currently allowed to return to campus - the regulation only applies to new students entering the US for the first time.
Its a very small population, in comparison.
In case you miss the point - every sophomore, junior, senior and rising graduate student, as well as every graduate assistant with course work will be allowed in - the only people being refused are entering freshmen or transfer students:
The rule won't affect international students already enrolled at American colleges and universities.
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There are more white people on assistance than people of color - simple fact.
More whites get SNAP benefits,
More whites get housing assistance.
More whites collect welfare.
More whites have subsidized healthcare.
There are simply more of them than any other ethnic minority group.
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The worst part is that the Democrats are trying to help them. Look at Obamacare, or worker's rights.
It's just that their opponents try to paint everything as part of a culture war against working class white people. All the rubbish about racism, about political elites and the swamp that Trump was supposed to be draining, about buying votes by letting in all the immigrants.
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The intellectuals also hate blue collar workers and everyone who does not pretend to be an intellectual.
I think it is more accurate to say that liberal intellectuals often do not respect the working class. That's a bit different than hate. In some ways it is worse because their behavior can be quite patronizing at times.
The socialists are hating the workers now because they are racist and uneducated.
What about Biden or Hillary do you read as socialist? I'm generally curious how you get there.
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If they were given special consideration *as a student* to *attend classes in person*; there is zero reason for them to be here if classes are virtual. None.
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Wait, I thought every other country had better internet service than the US - was that a lie?
You mean to tell me a kid that can swing $40-60K/year for college can't afford an alarm clock or a reliable internet connection?
Every excluded foreign student could move to Canada, locate in the same timezone as their university, and enjoy Canada's wonderful internet service.
Problem solved.
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I'm sure you don't hate me, but would you let me live in your house?
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Why do foreign students need to be near a closed campus? What is the value to the student to be near a campus they cant walk on, can't go to the library, visit the student center, meet with their professors, can't attend lectures, can't work in the laboratories, won't go see on-campus concerts or plays?
You're really just staking a non-sensical position in the hopes of painting the enforcement of a regulation that pre-dates the Trump administration as a racist, xenophobic act by an out of control President -
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The main reason for foreign students to enroll to the US universities is networking. This is what they are paying for. If there is no networking, why bother?
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You see, there is this silly thing called Covid-19 going around. Maybe ya heard of it? If it's truly nothing, then schools should be open for all. Apparently the schools are to be closed and online only. Guess they will have to network over zoom like the american students will have to do.
Why is this such a hard concept for y'all to grasp? It's not forever and we are literally all in this together.
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You really think networking only goes on at the campus? You seem to be even dumber than I have thought.
Re: Most excellent move (Score:2)
Well, In the short term, different time zones will cause international students to simply not enroll. Who wants to attend a virtual seminar at 3am?
In the longer term, this just signals to international students that the United States does NOT want them. Since international students effectively subsidize higher education for Americans, this will just cause higher education costs for Americans to increase. Plus the loss of brilliant minds from abroad coming to the United States, since the messaging is definit
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you realize this law pre-dated Trump, right?
You realize this only impacts new students, returning students are welcome back no problem.
The messaging is, save your money, study abroad - there's no benefit from moving to America is four school is 100% virtual.
Many students, US students, are planning on taking a semester off based on the craptacular experience of the spring semester, and getting ZERO discount for what amounts to independent study at a $50-60K/year university.
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Because "student" is a race??
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Are you a racist if you want everyone blocked from coming in? Wouldn't those skinheads want White western students coming in?
Maybe the word you were looking for is xenophobic? That could be it. Conservative, white, male, christian voters might very well be xenophobic to all non american, white christians that vote conservatively.
Maybe they are both racist and xenophobic, but just disliking foreigners isn't racist. It is xenophobic.
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No way Trump is doing this primarily because he's a racist scumbag who knows this will appeal to his brain-damaged base.
Your ignorance on this matter is stunning.
Trump issued a waiver in the spring to allow students to remain in country for 100% virtual classes.
Trump is issuing another wavier for existing foreign students to remain.
Trump is enforcing the existing, post-9/11 regulation regarding students getting visas for 100% correspondence/virtual classes, passed by Congress in response to several of the 9/11 terrorists entering the country with student visas to attend correspondence courses.