Chinese Leaders Split Over Releasing Blacklist of US Companies (wsj.com) 114
Beijing has sped up development of a blacklist that could be used to punish American technology firms, but officials say leaders are hesitating to pull the trigger, with some arguing a decision on the list should wait till after the U.S. election. From a report: The debate highlights Beijing's continued grappling with how to respond to the Trump administration without driving the relationship closer to collapse. So far, the Chinese leadership has tried to respond in kind to Washington's actions but has tried to avoid measures that go beyond those of the U.S. A well-timed strike can sometimes work in Beijing's and Chinese companies' favor. After President Trump's campaign for a U.S. company to take over video-sharing app TikTok, Chinese regulators rolled out new export-control rules that have helped TikTok parent ByteDance set terms that could help it avoid losing control of the platform's U.S. operations or crucial technology.
China first announced its plan to create a blacklist of U.S. entities in May 2019, soon after the U.S. restricted telecom giant Huawei Technologies's access to U.S. components and technology. But Beijing refrained from specifying any companies or individuals for the list as both countries' trade negotiators were engaged in the talks that eventually led to the signing of a "phase one" trade agreement in January. As the Trump administration has intensified its attacks on some of China's best-known companies -- also including Tencent Holdings, which runs the WeChat messaging and payments app -- the list has gained urgency. In recent weeks, according to people with knowledge of the matter, an interagency group led by Vice Premier Hu Chunhua, who oversees foreign investment and trade, has stepped up finalization of the "unreliable-entity" list -- China's answer to the U.S.'s list of Chinese entities it is targeting for sanctions.
China first announced its plan to create a blacklist of U.S. entities in May 2019, soon after the U.S. restricted telecom giant Huawei Technologies's access to U.S. components and technology. But Beijing refrained from specifying any companies or individuals for the list as both countries' trade negotiators were engaged in the talks that eventually led to the signing of a "phase one" trade agreement in January. As the Trump administration has intensified its attacks on some of China's best-known companies -- also including Tencent Holdings, which runs the WeChat messaging and payments app -- the list has gained urgency. In recent weeks, according to people with knowledge of the matter, an interagency group led by Vice Premier Hu Chunhua, who oversees foreign investment and trade, has stepped up finalization of the "unreliable-entity" list -- China's answer to the U.S.'s list of Chinese entities it is targeting for sanctions.
China mad they can’t spy (Score:2, Informative)
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Use Google.
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Use Amazon.
NSA Chief Who Oversaw Sweeping Domestic Phone Surveillance Joins Amazon Board As Director [zerohedge.com]
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right, the stuff people post on a social media service has high intelligence value. I'm guessing not. Anyone can glean the same kind info from twitter, facebook, etc.
Re:China mad they can’t spy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:China mad they can’t spy (Score:4, Informative)
Last I checked the US wasn't handing out NSLs for dissenting opinions. Nor were they kidnapping people in the middle of the night and alleging bogus charges which are then never tried by a judge or worse yet are "tried" by a court that is not independent of the executive branch.
Maybe you want to google "extraordinary rendition".
Let me quote the first paragraph from wikipedia:
Extraordinary rendition, also called irregular rendition or forced rendition, is the government-sponsored abduction and extrajudicial transfer of a person from one country to another with the purpose of circumventing the former country's laws on interrogation, detention and torture. Recent renditions have been carried out (for example) by the United States government.[1][2][3]
Those links:
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
https://www.theguardian.com/wo... [theguardian.com]
https://www.theguardian.com/us... [theguardian.com]
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The critical word here is "suspects". Who's a suspect? Everyone that is denounced as a suspect by an investigator. There is no burden of proof.
Yes, it could be a "average citizen" of any given country residing anywhere in the world. There were some very well reported cases of US government troops abducting people from Europe.
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The US has been tapping phones and recording conversations long before the internet existed. There were a whole bunch of Snowdon leaks explaining how that has expanded in the internet age.
The greatest fear of any government is the citizens overthrowing them.
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Yes but the app is not installed with root privileges.
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Mmmm dickpics. Have you considered not elevating 14 year old kids to top secret status? Then you shouldn't need to worry about any "national security" risk from some app sharing stupid videos.
Going after TikTok to improve security is like killing Coronaviruses individually with a hammer. Good luck and comical to watch.
Re:China mad they can’t spy (Score:5, Insightful)
> right, the stuff people post on a social media service has high intelligence value
Yes, it sure does, Ignacio Manzanedo (@IggyManz).
If wanted to find out all about you, what you do, who you hang out with, social media would definitely be the place to start. I say this based on years of experience.
Also, as the AC below me said:
The ability to read everything on a device (contacts, photos, microphone, camera) is of value.
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But what value is that information to the Chinese?
It's obvious why the US government (NSA etc.) want to know everything about their citizens. It's obvious why ad companies want to know everything about you. But what is in it for the Chinese government?
There was a story last week about how small the Chinese databases are: https://yro.slashdot.org/story... [slashdot.org]
They are focused on people of interest, not mass data gathering like we do in the West.
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That's a good point (Score:2)
You make a good point.
At least 35% are "people of interest"? (Score:2)
The fact that one pf their data sources for Australia is "only" 2.4 million Australians in that particular data source doesn't indicate to me that "They are focused on people of interest, not mass data gathering like we do in the West."
At least, you'd have to define "people of interest" to include at least two and half million Australians. (10% of the Australian population in that particular source, or 35% of people between 15-64 years old). I wouldn't call 35% of the adult population all that focused.
>
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Maybe I should have used myself as an example.
You've probably noticed by now what my job is, I'm a cybersecurity professional and have been for a long time. Just the other day in a security-related conversation here I mentioned "maybe your media player PC doesn't need to be secure, my.work computer definitely needs to be secure because I have direct access to many secrets".
It wouldn't take reading very many my posts to figure out that the Chinese would like to either recruit me or hack me - I have access to
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Australian data probably came from a leak. No point China trying to screw with RNGs in US products, the NSA got there first and would surely notice someone screwing with their work.
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> Australian data probably came from a leak.
You didn't read even the summary of the article that you are citing as evidence that China doesn't have large databases, did ya? :)
Btw actually, Google "social credit score" and get back me on "no large databases".
Funny how you're saying that reading American's messages wouldn't be at all useful to the Chinese intelligence and propaganda agencies *while you are actively defending the Chinese government on social media*. You're actually waving a giant "I'm her
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[the chinese] are focused on people of interest, not mass data gathering like we do in the West.
not sure if youre only speaking about foreigner data collection; if not, their national good-boy-points system would like a word with you.
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Yes I meant for foreigners. They don't have anything like FIVE EYES either.
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and the point is that information is already all over the place, for free, for any government, corporation on planet earth that wants to harvest it. Hell even I could do it if I wanted to spend a few years of my salary on mostly tech instead of my family.
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Somebody can get != Worthless
In fact, even if what you really want is the info that's really hard to get, often you're going to need open source intel to get it. For example, consider what this hacker did with knowledge of a) who was attending a conference and b) how far the nearest restaurant is to a particular office. :)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/w... [google.com]
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world... [bbc.com]
"Chinese consulate in Houston ordered to close by US
"Tensions have been rising between the US and China for some time. President Donald Trump's administration has clashed repeatedly with Beijing over trade and the coronavirus pandemic, as well as China's imposition of a controversial new security law on Hong Kong.
Then on Tuesday, the US Department of Justice accused China of sponsoring hackers who had been targeting labs developing Covid-19 vaccines. Two Chinese nationals, w
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If you gullible enough to think it was about spying, you just too gullible, all about the benjamins. A US tech firm wanted tiktok at a cheap price so they paid a lobbyist to arrange it, as simple as that.
China response a black list, should never ever be released all at once. The black list should be stretched out, one US corporation at a time, around one per week, very the day, you might mention how many corporations have been blacklisted, it drags it on out, no corporation knows until it is too late, think
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No, I really think TikTok was picked because it was said to have been used by tweens to give the Trump campaign inflated expectations of attendance at their rally. Look at the timing. All the 'concerns' raised after that could just as well have been raised about any of thousands of other companies at any time before or since.
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In Douglas Adams' Last Change to See, he recounts a visit to Mauritius (or some island near there) in the Indian Ocean with at risk wild life. There was a bird who, when he saw a red hat on some fellow Carl's head, he would go mad with desire. They could then collect the sperm and use it in their breeding program. Douglas's remark about the bird was he wasn't very bright, but he was logical.
In this sense, I think the alleged president isn't very bright but he is logical.
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Actually I think Oracle will be the gatekeeper and walmart will be the keymaster and tiktok is Gozer.
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Sorry China, you cannot use tiktok to spy on cat videos and young kid jokes. Bad, bad China.
Biden strongly in favor of China (Score:1, Troll)
The fact that they are thinking of waiting until after the election tells you all you need to know about how much Biden is under the influence of, and partnering with China.
If you love the social credit stuff that China is doing, just wait until Biden and his shadow government comes into power! Then you will see the US-China merger Firefly prophesied some fully to fruition.
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You're simply wrong. It's Hunter who was the financial mastermind behind the Biden Family dealings with China and Bohai Harvest . The timing and AF2 trip were completely unrelated. Hunter was lead on multi-billion dollar deals with China, not Joe. Everybody knows Hunter's the brains of the family operations - maybe he should take a crack at politics.
There's plenty of public information about this. e.g.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/10/... [nypost.com]
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Hahahaha, waiting to see what the likely new leader of the US' stance on their country will be is just fucking prudent. Your grasping for conspiracy is pathetic.
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The fact that they are thinking of waiting until after the election tells you all you need to know about how much Biden is under the influence of, and partnering with China.
No it doesn't. How can that be when it is US corporate interests running Biden?
If you love the social credit stuff that China is doing, just wait until Biden and his shadow government comes into power! Then you will see the US-China merger Firefly prophesied some fully to fruition.
I thought Obama already took all your guns away, and set up all those death camps. This is just the next part of that.
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No it doesn't. How can that be when it is US corporate interests running Biden?
The corporations support Biden.
The corporations protest against Trumps trade war with China.
The corporations love doing business in China.
Which of these dont you believe? In spite of the landslide of evidence thats been smashing you in the face for 4 years?
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What point are you trying to make? Something about how Trump is doing this trade war stuff to help America?
Don't be so gullible.
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Do you mean the same wars that Obama was already scaling down?
The same Obama that set up those death camps and took everyone's guns away and wore a tan suit?
Checkmate atheists!
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I'll admit to not knowing what the fuck you mean by tan suits but morally questionable prisoner of war camps were going strong well before Obama and were in fact trimmed back at least a bit under his term.
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Another was that if he was allowed to fund healthcare for Americans he would set up "death panels" to decide who lived and who died.
Also, one time he wore a tan suit in the oval office, like Hitler.
He may have used mustard on a hotdog one time too, but I had lost interest by then so I might be wrong
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Oh give me a fucking break you fucking flower
Insurance companies already form "death panels" that tell what people should be saved and who shouldn't. At least with socialized medicine we get to vote on the assholes that make those choices.
After that, Bernie Sanders, that most far Left candidate the Democrats had this election. Pro gun rights advocate.
Get your head out of your fucking ass.
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But you didn't, so it's not.
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Sorry, I don't write ignorant, illiterate. While not necessarily 100% proper there is nothing incomprehensible about my posts. It's a weak case that resorts to grammar to refute the others ideas. All you're doing here is looking the fool.
Re: Biden strongly in favor of China (Score:3)
He certainly tried. Then his play blew up in his face when a border patrol agent got killed by one of the weapons his people were smuggling across the border.
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Right, Obama is guilt of weapon smuggling into the United States too.
The most unsettling thing about people's like you're fabrications isn't the fabrications themselves. It's that at this point they are seriously undermining our Democracy with unproven trash. I really worry about what will happen when Trump is free and fairly voted outed of office this next election.
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TDS? I don't think we need to bring the ability to believe the alleged president into this. The war in Afghanistan is not much different now than when Obama left office. The only thing going on in the middle east is that a few players decided they hated Iran more than each other. And they had a glutton for praise in the White House, so they could use him for cover. "Sure, sure, Mr. Alleged President, this Big Big win for you, you Big Big Boss!!"
And the government in China is bad. Before the Covid scare, the
That's a wise decision (Score:2, Informative)
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Clearly if we know who they are boycotting, we also can see which companies are brave enough to refuse to sell out to Chinese interests. It might also be quite informative to know who they (or their less principled competitors) are making political donations to.
Could you explain how this is clear? As I remember the tariffs, they were aimed at Trumps voter base, farmers et al., so the complete opposite of what you're saying is clear to happen in this case.
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Clearly if we know who they are boycotting, we also can see which companies are brave enough to refuse to sell out to Chinese interests. It might also be quite informative to know who they (or their less principled competitors) are making political donations to.
Could you explain how this is clear? As I remember the tariffs, they were aimed at Trumps voter base, farmers et al., so the complete opposite of what you're saying is clear to happen in this case.
Not too long ago Trump announced new tariffs against Canadian aluminium. Last week we were about to announce our list of retaliatory tariffs, dollar for dollar. Those retaliatory tariffs were indeed specifically targeted at goods and businesses in swing states that Trump hopes to win. The day we were set to announce our list, Trump rescinded his tariffs on Canadian aluminium. If he wins the election in November, he may indeed still reimpose the tariffs. And we will indeed retaliate specifically agains
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They can blacklist Boeing. This has the benefit of seriously kicking the USA in the nuts (Boeing is their most valuable exporter and is struggling right now) without hurting themselves much.
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Yup. If it concides with WTO ruling against US subsidies, Boeing is history.
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It doesn't matter who wins. China has learned a new trick and they won't be giving it up easily.
Wait a little bit (Score:2)
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The list has already leaked (Score:5, Insightful)
Facebook
Google
Youtube
Twitter
Oh wait, they had already done that years ago.
I don't know what tat they are planning in response to the tit. But arguably as much as I don't support Trump blocking TikTok... China definitely did start it.
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China needs to become a better world citizen before they grow too big.
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You forgot Apple. They have been talking a lot about Apple recently.
Probably Cisco as well, and maybe Intel. AMD has partnerships with Chinese companies to produce domestic versions of AMD CPUs with American spyware removed (no management engine, no RNGs, no AES etc.) so they are okay.
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Oh wait, they had already done that years ago.
Nope. China did not ban specific companies because they are American. They simply ban all countries which don't comply with local laws. Comparing China's blocking of Google (which Google voluntarily initiated) to Trump's temper tantrum against TikTok points to a gross lack of understanding of either or both of the example cases.
Most likely outcome (Score:2)
By end of November, there might be no Trump government anymore. So it would be premature doing anything as a tit-for-tat action when the reason might suddenly disappear.
That might happen, but it's less likely than some of the alternatives.
The most likely alternative is that by the end of November we will be in a civil war. We're 6 weeks out from the election and the violence from one side, and one side only, is getting ever higher. People on one side are literally killing people on the other side over political demands.
This prediction comes from several people with a strong track record of insight and previously correct predictions.
It'll likely be a blood bath, and I'm opt
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Once Trump gets reelected, he will exercise his duty and right to quell insurrection and domestic terrorism and you are going to start seeing these violent mobs get arrested or killed when the military is sent in.
What you mean is, "The president will have to exercise his right and duty to quell..." I would rather that this person be Biden than Trump. The media will have his back and he will be lauded for his tough-minded courage in facing down the nation's adversaries. I leave it to the reader to imagine what the reaction from the twitterati would be if it were Trump.
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There is no way Biden is going to win. Americans are sick and tired of all of the liberals telling people that they are bad for existing
ok, I can see that. It's reasonable. I wouldn't like to be lumped in as a racist if I were Republican.
Once Trump gets reelected, he will exercise his duty and right to quell insurrection and domestic terrorism and you are going to start seeing these violent mobs get arrested or killed when the military is sent in. You wanted war? Well you fucking got it. Americans are tired of you.
Uh what? Actually you are kind of bad.....
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According to polls, he's likely to win. Unless something dramatic changes in next month, which in turn is unlikely.
hard to complain about this (Score:1)
We're in the middle of the "great separation" between China and the west. We've reached the limits of cooperation, given up on further integration and we're pulling back from each other in various ways. The transition is going to cause a lot of instability and there's a chance that a misunderstanding could lead to something serious. Better
Somewhere in America/China (Score:2)
Leader: "Gain? We would gain winning, that's what we would gain. Victory, victory at all costs! We'll pay to make them pay, *maniacal laughter*"
As seen on TV (Score:2)
They'll just steal anyway (Score:2)
This is coming from the people who want to take over Asia and who are stealing our tech. I wouldn't be surprised if the the list of black listed companies becomes a list of companies to stall tech and business models from
It must be odd for Americans... (Score:2)
...to see such rational and reasoned consideration of what response to make.
I think it is also good for Americans that CPC waits until to result is known. I can't see any reason why they wouldn't wait. Frankly, it is the same reason Trump is not waiting...he wants to do as much anti-China stuff as possible in order to rally his bigoted followers.
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Would you kick 'your' intellectual property out the door? Of course they are dragging their collective feet as they don't want to shoot off their remaining foot.
WeChat is nothing to HiSilicon EDI/foundry ban. (Score:1)
Something is wrong here. Restricting access to US EDI software (Cadence, Synopsis, and Mentor Graphics) and 7nm foundry (TSMC) is a serious power move. It's not in the same league as banning WeChat. It is a military-class cold-war-alrea