New Train Hall Opens at Penn Station, Echoing Building's Former Glory (nytimes.com) 88
The Moynihan Train Hall, with glass skylights and 92-foot-high ceilings, will open Jan. 1 as an area for Amtrak and Long Island Railroad riders. The New York Times: For more than half a century, New Yorkers have trudged through the crammed platforms, dark hallways and oppressively low ceilings of Pennsylvania Station, the busiest and perhaps most miserable train hub in North America. Entombed beneath Madison Square Garden, the station served 650,000 riders each weekday before the pandemic, or three times the number it was built to handle. But as more commuters return to Penn Station next year, they will be welcomed by a new, $1.6 billion train hall complete with over an acre of glass skylights, art installations and 92-foot-high ceilings that Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, who championed the project, has likened to the majestic Grand Central Terminal. After nearly three years of construction, the new Moynihan Train Hall, in the James A. Farley Post Office building across Eighth Avenue from Penn Station, will open to the public on Jan. 1 as a waiting room for Amtrak and Long Island Rail Road passengers.
For decades, the huge undertaking was considered an absolution of sorts for one of the city's greatest sins: the demolition in the 1960s of the original Penn Station building, an awe-inspiring structure that was a stately gateway to the country's economic powerhouse. The destruction of the station was a turning point in New York's civic life. It prompted a fierce backlash among defenders of the city's architectural heritage, the creation of the Landmarks Preservation Commission and renewed efforts to protect Grand Central Terminal. That the project has been completed during a period when the city was brought to a standstill is a hopeful reminder that the bustle of Midtown Manhattan will return, Mr. Cuomo said. The train hall "sends a clear message to the world that while we suffered greatly as a result of this once-in-a-century health crisis, the pandemic did not stop us from dreaming big and building for the future," he added. The project has its detractors, who fault state officials for not going far enough in reimagining Penn Station. These critics note that the Moynihan Train Hall will serve only some of the passengers who use Penn Station, ignoring the needs of subway riders.
For decades, the huge undertaking was considered an absolution of sorts for one of the city's greatest sins: the demolition in the 1960s of the original Penn Station building, an awe-inspiring structure that was a stately gateway to the country's economic powerhouse. The destruction of the station was a turning point in New York's civic life. It prompted a fierce backlash among defenders of the city's architectural heritage, the creation of the Landmarks Preservation Commission and renewed efforts to protect Grand Central Terminal. That the project has been completed during a period when the city was brought to a standstill is a hopeful reminder that the bustle of Midtown Manhattan will return, Mr. Cuomo said. The train hall "sends a clear message to the world that while we suffered greatly as a result of this once-in-a-century health crisis, the pandemic did not stop us from dreaming big and building for the future," he added. The project has its detractors, who fault state officials for not going far enough in reimagining Penn Station. These critics note that the Moynihan Train Hall will serve only some of the passengers who use Penn Station, ignoring the needs of subway riders.
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Re: Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Hey, no false promises!
-- Rest of the planet
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Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
People will drive, take trains and fly again as soon as they are vaccinated, and everybody will be vaccinated. 'Hesitancy' will not survive our seeing the first cohort of people enjoying life again.
Re: Why? (Score:2)
I call bullshit on your first full sentence.
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Mod this up.
It is pretty incredible that so many cannot see obvious clumsy attempts at satire and go through the trouble of trying to refute this idiot's arguments.
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Double bullshit - bullshit on each half. What fucking world in which the OP lives does vaccinating not stop the spread and everyone cannot be vacinated? Every hear of smallpox or polio?
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This is a different disease, which for some is "a bad cold" or nothing at all. And not everyone will get vaccinated, because 'Murica, and only 60% of us will get the Bill Gates chip/mark of the Beast. The rest may or may not come around, if they survive.
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Good luck getting a two to three years lockdown in the states. We'll be lucky if we could get the entire country to actually lock down for two weeks. We never locked down, and the red states will likely ignore any orders handed to them at this point. Hell, my state's governor and my city's mayor are at constant odds over it and they're both Republican. Our ability to politicize every little god damned thing is literally killing a huge segment of our population. It's ridiculous.
Re: Why? (Score:1, Funny)
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Nope. Vaccinations do not stop the spread of the disease ...
No, that's quite clearly not true.
There are only two ways that you could have a reduction in the number of sick people: A. by making cases less severe, or B. by preventing infections.
If you look at the numbers, you'll see that the ratio of serious cases to total cases is identical in the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. If the vaccine were working by reducing the severity of the infection, those numbers would have changed nonlinearly. They did not. Thus, the vaccine's effectiveness cannot realisticall
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Vaccinations do not stop the spread of the disease
How would the disease spread if people are vaccinated and not catching it? You must be working for CNN and scratching for reasons why We're All Gonna Die, which is their default stance on any problem you can name.
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Proof that both wings of this argument are too stupid to realize the GP post was some lame attempt at satirizing a pov.
Re: Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
Like anyone in the US did before?
You cities are ruined by car manufacturers. 80% grid 20% buildings in city centers. That's literally cast in stone. Will take a century to fix, even if somebody cares enough to care.
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During the flu pandemic of 1918, I remember they said the same thing about trains and horse driven carriages.
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Horses were well on their way out in 1918.
You (very high) tax dollars at work. (Score:1, Flamebait)
Re: You (very high) tax dollars at work. (Score:1)
See it as hope and inspiration... that one day, the US will return to becoming a first eorld natiom again. ;)
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At least not any time in the near future.
People are leaving, and work from home, likely isn't going away. People will see how nice it is to pay reasonable rent for a nice sized place, or even buying a home.
They will see it nice to not have oppressive taxes.
Let's just hope they understand WHY it is a nicer life than NYC, living stacked on top of each other, and
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The boomers really lead the charge out to the suburbs. I live in a rural 'suburb', it's nice. Cost of living is very cheap and it's a simple life. My wife and I are lucky to both have well paying jobs here. Most job openings are warehouse/factory work for $15/hr. We have to drive roughly 60 miles f
Re: You (very high) tax dollars at work. (Score:4, Interesting)
NJ Transit needs to get its act together. No favors were done it by the likes of Gov. "I watched the Sopranos" Chris Christie. Amtrak and LIRR get the new passenger facility at NY Penn Station, NJT stays in the scuttle hall. Long term, it should get another tunnel and Penn Station South, but that may be a long way off. Meanwhile all three railroads are *still* stuck with the narrow platforms. But a *much* more pleasant topside.
(And LIRR does get brand new platforms at, or under, GCT in a few years - those are actually almost done.)
Re: You (very high) tax dollars at work. (Score:2)
The platforms would be less terrible without the giant columns for Madison Square Garden running right through them. Dismantle MSG and those columns can go away. Beyond that, look into through routing so that trains don't need to sit at the platform for hours, then you can take out some tracks and fill the space in with more platform.
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YMMV.
Some people like urban living enough to put up with all that sh*t.
I would have when I was younger and single, and might again once I'm retired and my kids are grown, presuming sufficient income.
But for now I do enjoy living in a place that is affordable, reasonably safe, and very close to a semi-major city, albeit one much smaller than NYC.
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You do know what a "commuter train" is, don't you?
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trains are still a money loser in the USA (Score:1)
the NYC railroads all lose money
Amtrak loses money every year and needs over $30 BILLION for infrastructure upgrades around NYC that they expect the government to pay for
The money for this station was originally authorized back in 2009 under the stimulus passed under Obama. I used to work close to there and they advertised it
It's actually been under construction for 10 years. the first phase was a new entrance for the LIRR
Re:trains are still a money loser in the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: trains are still a money loser in the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel like half the problems in the US stem form that expectation that everything must make a profit instead of making America better.
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If so, why do you give a damn about how we conduct our business ?
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Cos you Yanks keep telling us how wonderful your country is when in reality in resembles one of those "shithole countries" your president refers to.
That's what happens when you let tax-rorting halfwits drive public policy by listening to "lobbyists".
* My own country is pretty fucked by these idiots following the American model.
Get a passport and when covid clears do some travelling. If you're a Spanish speaker, try the Basque Country - despite bureaucracy from Madrid, the local government has done amazing i
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I get the feeling that you are not from the US, nor do you live here....?
If so, why do you give a damn about how we conduct our business ?
I am from the US, but no longer live there (posting anonymously to preserve mods, but my username is Corbets).
The GP isn’t wrong. A significant portion of the US is shifting ever more towards the Ferengi “if it makes a profit it must be right”, and I feel that’s resulting in many of the current messes. A modicum of balance is required in all things, but the US is an extremist, absolutist nation.
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You guys are consistently exporting your business so it's hard to ignore.
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That said, it is important to watch how public money is spent and to ensure it is used efficiently and without favoritism. The Penn Station project was an excellent use of public money IMO, especially as I understand the project’
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> Amtrak loses money every year and needs over $30 BILLION for infrastructure upgrades around NYC that they expect the government to pay for
By the government, you mean the taxpayers. The taxpayers who will be using the trains to get to their jobs in New York, the jobs which allow them to make a living. Also, a quick web search just told me that New York took in 71.8 billion dollars in tourism in 2018 alone. So it is money well spent.
Have you never played Sim City? And have you never driven in New York? N
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I get the feeling that there are going to be a lot of empty trains and buildings in NYC for many years to come, even after the pandemic is over.
I figure there and many other heavily urban cities are doing to be le
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Yes, well, "Facts don't care about your feelings".
One of the number one complaints coming out of the cities is about gentrification. You might want to look that up: it's people, especially high-income people, moving in so fast and in such great numbers that they make costs of living skyrocket for the original poorer inhabitants.
Quite different from your delusion of people moving out.
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I would agree with you just up until the time of the pandemic and the race riots.
That has driven a LOT of folks to leave these urban areas.
I don't think folks will be rushing back anytime soon either...over time, sure, but it wil
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Trains are, at least, safe and pleasant to travel on though,
That really depends on the train, and even the particular section of the route. BART in the East Bay is a lot more dangerous than BART on the Peninsula, for example. BART overall is more trashy and dirty than the Seoul metro system.
Re:trains are still a money loser in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
It is because of this enormous subsidy trucking industry is even on the playing field for long distance trucking.
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The trucking industry is a free loader, it uses tax payer funded roads. The commercial vehicles do pay a much higher tax than passenger vehicles. But the damage done by 80,000 lb class is not just 20 times the wear and tear caused by a 4000 lb pickup. It is highly non linear and the wear tear is 400 to 1000 times higher. But they don't even pay 20 times the tax of a passenger car or toll.
It is because of this enormous subsidy trucking industry is even on the playing field for long distance trucking.
Then stop buying all that Chinese-made crap on Amazon. When people stop buying things the number of trucks will dramatically decrease. Then everyone who drives a vehicle can pay higher fees and taxes to maintain the roads.
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Trains a money loser worldwide.
There is no reason transportation must make a profit. No mode of transportation, not even air, makes a profit without massive government subsidy.
Get with the program. All transportation is a money loser worldwide. Only the smart nations embrace it as furthering the common good.
Re: trains are still a money loser in the USA (Score:2)
I agree. To close the loop, "common good" isn't just a squishy feel-good sentiment. Common good from railroads means better standards of living, people earning more money and paying higher taxes, less pollution so less long term healthcare costs, and cheaper transportation of goods. So it is very much in the government's interest to take a loss by subsidizing the rail companies. The economic benefits are very real.
Anyone who has lived near New York knows that the metro-north railroad and NJ Transit, which c
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Growing up in the NYC Metropolitan Area, I always wondered why the media always included "Fairfield County, Connecticut" when mentioning the area.
It's thanks to Metro-North and its old New Haven commuter lines.
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Actually they are not money losers worldwide. Deutsche Bahn usually reports earnings. Same for french SNCF. Same for Japan, but they all made losses in 2020.
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I'm talking about passenger railroads, not freight-only railroads.
Just because stock value increases doesn't mean they aren't getting government subsidy.
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...Amtrak loses money every year and needs over $30 BILLION for infrastructure upgrades around NYC that they expect the government to pay for
Amtrak is a quasi governmental agency. It has shares but the shares are owned by the Department of Transportation. The company was mandated by congress because the freight railroads saw that they were losing too much money transporting passengers. We need to be fully nationalized and funded. Some people dont fly.
Anyone else think it's crazy (Score:2)
Re: Anyone else think it's crazy (Score:5, Insightful)
If you've ever been to central Europe, you know it is crazy.
America has a large and very good rail network. It's just that that's a freight network. And people transportation is just using their network. The leftovers that freight leaves them. ... insulting.
Your major city train stations are, frankly, pathetic. Like what you would see for a 5000 people town here in Germany. And the prices are just
Everyone here understands why Americans are no big fan of travling by rail.
And the problem is that you need great infrastructure to change people's minds and improve usage, and a lot of usage to justify great infrastructure. :/
So unless somebody comes along and deliberately builds a huge network of train stations with the expectation of making a loss for 30 years, to see it as a long-term investment in America, that won't happen.
And you know how Americans feel about having a government and investing in the future of America...
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Large terminals and concourses in downtown with cramped parking and inadequate public transport wont work here
First we need to move the train boarding and disembarking to off city centers to intersections of major highways. I-79 on I-76 or I-80 and I-75. These stations need to be around 200 to 300 miles apart. About an hours drive from the city they serve. Designed allow people to take their own cars with them. Drive your car on to the flat cars, loc
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Consider Maumee OH (I75 on I80) to Shorewood IL (I65 on I80). This corridor is a main east-west trunk route I-80 carries tons of traffic. Toledo OH to Chicago OH, but also tons and tons of through traffic on I80. The distance is 250 miles, 4.5 hours by car.
If there is a convenient access point on these intersections, put the car on a flatbed freight car, lock it down, plug it in if its an EV, walk over to th
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I woudl guess putting a car on a car-train with an EV charger for a 250 mile trip would be north
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Nah, they're too busy handing money to the airlines to worry about passenger trains. Far more efficient.
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It should not be subsidizing trucking industry either using taxpayer funds. Commercial 80,000 lb class vehicles should pay according to the wear and tear they cause, and the increase in construction costs to support vehicles of that size. That is all we need to make trains very very competitive.
On a level playing field rail will beat road for long distance freight hand over fist. Construction of roads supporting 800
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I doubt that.
Your model is basically changing a 6 hours travel into a 3 hours travel with 2 difficult embarking and debarking phases.
Much to complicated. (based on a bit less than 100 mph travel by car and a bit higher than 100 mph by train - YMMV)
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Re: Anyone else think it's crazy (Score:2)
Maybe it's as simple as this: Americans don't want to live like Europeans?
You are right that our passenger rail system is abysmal, terminals sad, and prices high - but these are all the natural outcome of a system people don't really want (except for a few corridors where the population density reaches European levels, there the trains run fine).
Trains work for Europeans who are used to (and accept) dinky little homes, no yards, living elbow to elbow, tiny uncomfortable cars, narrow roads, and vast gasoline
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Lots of cities outside the Amtrak-owned portions of the Northeast Corridor have frequent train service -- if their states paid the piper. Amtrak has been somewhat decentralized by state funding. What the states typically do with their own funds is pay off the freight railroads in the form of major track work (hundreds of millions of dollars' worth) in exchange for being allowed passenger access to rails. Many of these lines are successful and some even make money (mutatis mutandis by the definition of the A
Now all you need is an acceptable train network (Score:1, Troll)
to go along with it. ;)
Right after the conversion to SI units, boys! I can feel it!
Get your uncooked bacon ready for takeoff!
Useless Fact About The Building (Score:4, Interesting)
The motto is actually from the First Persian Empire.
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our people today are unworthy of such nice things (Score:2, Insightful)
This will be a gallery of urine, graffiti and litter within a year. Not enough money will be spent to maintain it, and not enough resolve will be shown to prevent its use as a motel for the dispossessed (who do need a place to be sheltered... but not in a place such as this)
GCT has stayed pretty nice (Score:2)
This will be a gallery of urine, graffiti and litter within a year.
This hasn't happened to Grand Central. Why would it happen to this station?
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Nor has it happened to Bryant Park. Manhattan public facilities are in better shape than those in most U.S. cities.
Huh? (Score:2)
There are many current stations that look like that or better .. for example grand central station.
I would be impressed if they could make the ceiling as grand as say the Versailles and have sculptures with LEDs and all that. Of course it would cost around $10 billion. I said I would be impressed, not that it's a good idea.
I mean, the grander something like this is built the more it points to concentration of wealth. Rather have 50 stations that more people could use than one major one for the few.
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There are many current stations that look like that or better .. for example grand central station.
Grand Central Terminal. Trains come in and stop. Their lines terminate at Grand Central. If they passed through, it would be Grand Central Station.
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Do trains get eaten there? Is it possible to take a train to Grand Central Station and then take a train out of there to somewhere else? Yes? Logically it's the same as a station then isn't it?
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No. When trains pull into Grand Central they come to a dead end. It is the end of the line for certain railways. They cannot go through. They must back out of their spot to reconnect to the main line.
A station has trains passing through it. They come in one end and go out the other.
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No. Look, trains go in and out of there to different destinations. It's certainly not a terminal. I would say, if you want to talk about nodes or whatever, you might be able to argue it's a peer. Grand Central Peer, maybe.
Though Station is better.
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No. Look, trains go in and out of there to different destinations. It's certainly not a terminal. I would say, if you want to talk about nodes or whatever, you might be able to argue it's a peer. Grand Central Peer, maybe.
Though Station is better.
Then you tell the people at Grand Central Terminal [grandcentralterminal.com] they're wrong. After all, what would they know about its name and why it's a terminal and not a station.
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Sent them an email. Hopefully they'll change the name soon.
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For now, all trains from GCT go north into Westchester. You'd have a bad commute if you had to make that transfer, and you would do it further up the line if you did (at 125th or Fordham).
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In other languages there is no such distinction (e.g. french and german), both is a station.
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Grand Central Station is the postal depot. (Score:2)
The train facility is Grand Central Terminal. The large post office in the same building is Grand Central Station, zip code 10017. "GCS" can also be used to refer to the entire complex, the Terminal plus the PO plus the shops and whatnot, but that's a bit archaic.
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Yeah, it's actually a rather ugly station, overall. New and clean but ugly.
So what? (Score:1)
Somebody built a building. Wow!