Spring Numbers Show 'Dramatic' Drop In College Enrollment (npr.org) 245
Undergraduate college enrollment fell again this spring, down nearly 5% from a year ago. That means 727,000 fewer students, according to new data from the National Student Clearinghouse. NPR reports: "That's really dramatic," says Doug Shapiro, who leads the clearinghouse's research center. Fall enrollment numbers had indicated things were bad, with a 3.6% undergraduate decline compared with a year earlier, but experts were waiting to see if those students who held off in the fall would enroll in the spring. That didn't appear to happen. "Despite all kinds of hopes and expectations that things would get better, they've only gotten worse in the spring," Shapiro says. "It's really the end of a truly frightening year for higher education. There will be no easy fixes or quick bounce backs."
Overall enrollment in undergraduate and graduate programs has been trending downward since around 2012, and that was true again this spring, which saw a 3.5% decline -- seven times worse than the drop from spring 2019 to spring 2020. The National Student Clearinghouse attributed that decline entirely to undergraduates across all sectors, including for-profit colleges. Community colleges, which often enroll more low-income students and students of color, remained hardest hit by far, making up more than 65% of the total undergraduate enrollment losses this spring. On average, U.S. community colleges saw an enrollment drop of 9.5%, which translates to 476,000 fewer students. [...] Based on her conversations with students, [Heidi Aldes, dean of enrollment management at Minneapolis College, a community college in Minnesota] attributes the enrollment decline to a number of factors, including being online, the "pandemic paralysis" community members felt when COVID-19 first hit, and the financial situations families found themselves in.
Overall enrollment in undergraduate and graduate programs has been trending downward since around 2012, and that was true again this spring, which saw a 3.5% decline -- seven times worse than the drop from spring 2019 to spring 2020. The National Student Clearinghouse attributed that decline entirely to undergraduates across all sectors, including for-profit colleges. Community colleges, which often enroll more low-income students and students of color, remained hardest hit by far, making up more than 65% of the total undergraduate enrollment losses this spring. On average, U.S. community colleges saw an enrollment drop of 9.5%, which translates to 476,000 fewer students. [...] Based on her conversations with students, [Heidi Aldes, dean of enrollment management at Minneapolis College, a community college in Minnesota] attributes the enrollment decline to a number of factors, including being online, the "pandemic paralysis" community members felt when COVID-19 first hit, and the financial situations families found themselves in.
Not worth the money (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not worth the money (Score:4, Insightful)
Not to mention the little issue of college being a hostile environment to any rational person these days. If you're not willing to play along with whatever the commies demand at the moment, they make it very unpleasant to be there.
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A Chinese immigrant in Northern Virginia nailed it: Schools today represent a major front in the American version of Mao's Cultural Revolution, where "trained Marxist" zealots indoctrinate people to denounce the past; thought police tell children to rat out each other, and their parents, for improper thoughts; street thugs, waving the flag of a communist group, tear down statues, burn books and destroy other vestiges of the past; school names are changed to sanitize thought; and more.
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LOL I guess we should get rid of all schools right? Trumptards unite.
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A Chinese immigrant in Northern Virginia nailed it: Schools today represent a major front in the American version of Mao's Cultural Revolution, where "trained Marxist" zealots indoctrinate people to denounce the past; thought police tell children to rat out each other, and their parents, for improper thoughts; street thugs, waving the flag of a communist group, tear down statues, burn books and destroy other vestiges of the past; school names are changed to sanitize thought; and more.
I entirely disagree with the use of the "commie" epithet used by the poster you're responding to, and to my ears your post bears a hint of that as well. These problems go VERY far beyond traditional political doctrine, and fighting the war on that battlefield is a gift to those who would censor thought and perception.
But I DO agree with Winston Churchill when he said “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” There are much better responses to the realization of prior gener
Re:Not worth the money (Score:4, Insightful)
For those interested, GP seems to be referring to this story: https://www.fox5dc.com/news/vi [fox5dc.com]... [fox5dc.com]. The fact that this is showing up largely on conservative news outlets shouldn't be allowed to obscure the validity of some of the points made.
"I can't really just say what I mean, even though the other side can say whatever," she said. "To me, and to a lot of Chinese, it is heartbreaking that we escaped communism and now we experience communism here."
Well she sounds entirely rational, and not at all hyperbolic...
Re:Not worth the money (Score:5, Interesting)
>"But I DO agree with Winston Churchill when he said âoeThose that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.â There are much better responses to the realization of prior generations' mistakes than pulling down the statues; burning / bowdlerizing the history books; and banning certain types of speech and, ultimately, thought."
Or trying to shame/blame people of certain races now for past injustices with wild theories or indoctrinate them with racist "anti-racist" programs. Teaching history, however, is more than fine, it is critical part of education. I just wish as much emphasis were placed on critical thinking, debate, and logic.
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>"None of that is formally part of CRT nor should it be."
But it kinda is, from what I have seen of it. Depending on age this stuff is taught, I even think it rises to the level of child abuse- telling children, who barely even know or care about "color", that they are oppressors or oppressed based only on their race. MLK would probably have a coronary. And intertwined with CRT is Marxism, divisiveness, authoritarianism, inappropriate re-definitions of words (like "racism" and "institutional racism"),
Re:Not worth the money (Score:5, Informative)
Interesting comments from her:
“I’ve been very alarmed by what’s going on in our schools. You are now teaching, training our children to be social justice warriors and to loathe our country and our history.
“The Communist regime used the same critical theory to divide people. The only difference is they used class instead of race.”
“We were taught to denounce our heritage, and Red Guards destroyed anything that is not communist ... statues, books, and anything else.
“We were also encouraged to report on each other, just like the Student Equity Ambassador program and the bias reporting system.
“This is indeed the American version of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.
“The critical race theory has its roots in cultural Marxism. It should have no place in our school.”
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Your statement that it’s “equally wrong to never teach [CRT]” is easily comparable to a demand to teach creationism alongside everything else in school made by the religious: one side (creationism and CRT) denounces the use of reason, reality, and/or even denies that reality can be known (i.e. what he underlying postmodernism/critical theory does); the other relies on the results of the scientific method and reason instead of faith and irrationality.
Likewise, one has a place in education,
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There are much better responses to the realization of prior generations' mistakes than pulling down the statues; burning / bowdlerizing the history books;
If people of a certain political persuasion actually realized what those prior generations did then those Confederate statues would be subject to much worse treatment than getting pulled down.
For those interested, GP seems to be referring to this story: https://www.fox5dc.com/news/vi [fox5dc.com].... The fact that this is showing up largely on conservative news outlets shouldn't be allowed to obscure the validity of some of the points made.
Because if a member of one visible minority agrees then it can possibly be racist or discriminatory towards another visible minority.
Oh, and there's a fairly blatant mistake in the linked article:
By Michael Ruiz | Fox News
LOUDOUN COUNTY, Va. A Virginia mom who endured Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution before immigrating
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Not "friend", just somebody who lived through this kind of literal culture war and is trying to warn us about what is going on.
If you're going to make up facts while accusing others of "gaslighting", you should at least point out one thing that is factually wrong. Otherwise it looks like you're the gaslighter.
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Well your dumb dumb friend should also have things to say about Trumptards and their great leader "Trump". Trump even brought a bunch of Trumptards to Washington, just like Mao brought red guards to Beijing to kick off the CR in 1966. He even made a great speech trying to reenact Mao's famous Beijing '66 speech in Tiananmen Sq.
Re:Not worth the money (Score:5, Insightful)
Yea those Liberal College professors ask you to back up your claims with creditable evidence.
Having been in college myself (don't spelling and grammar nazi, me because I do have dyslexia, I really try my best), I had found that the Professors are quite willing to listed to alternate view points even ones they don't believe in. However you better be ready to back up your statement with research and facts. I have seen overly Liberal Students and overly Conservative students getting shot down and embarrassed by professors (sometimes the same professor) because they both were just touting their emotions and using the political tropes without backing it up by evidence.
What I expect really causes this impression is the fact that Students from a strictly Conservative house or very Liberal house hold may become more moderate after leaving college. They think it is the professors brainwashing them with Liberal Agenda, but it is more the aspect that After you leave your small town and Go to a university you find a diversity of people with different ideals, life styles and vices and your realize there are many different paths to success and failures. ...
Those non-christian are really into the same stuff the christian are.
The people who fall the in the LBGTQ are actually rather normal people who act much like everyone else most of the time.
You meet people from other countries and societies who may not look like you, and offer a different view point to what is happening.
They also may find people who are more religious than you where you can see how their faith guides them.
They see people who had to work hard to get out of being in a poor conditions, often going to college in spite of their parents.
This experience is what causes change. College doesn't doctorate people to be become liberals. It just expands their view of the world and usually creates a more moderate view of things.
Re:Not worth the money (Score:5, Insightful)
Liberal college professors are also allowed to get away with the most vile racism so long as it suits the prevailing narrative. Here's a good example of a professor at SUNY who wrote an essay detailing his fantasy of kicking homeless white children in the face for fun [washingtontimes.com]. Guess what... he's still employed.
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How can you watch what happened at Evergreen state college and not have an inkling of what everyone is upset about when they question what's happening on college campuses? You say that college professors ask you to back up your claims with credible evidence. They should. Did they, at Evergreen? The ones who did were shouted down as racist white supremacists, and were told by campus police that they were in danger because some students were out searching cars looking for them.
If critical thinking were al
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-1, Struck a nerve.
One major objection to online course attendance has always been that you are not a part of the campus culture. Now this has gone from being a disadvantage to being an advantage.
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See also: Oberlin College [wikipedia.org].
Or New York University [wsj.com], which instituted single-doctor death panels and threatened to persecute anyone who spoke out about them.
Or the University of Illinois at Chicago [abovethelaw.com], which declared that a ten-year-old hypothetical question on a law school exam suddenly became improper because it included (as it did for the last decade) an expurgated version of offensive slurs.
Or Syracuse University [thefire.org], which suspended a fraternity for a year -- after initially suspending all Greek activities -- si
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What is wrong with you? Re the WSJ.com article. What exactly do you expect doctors to do if they are on the verge of running out of ventilators and have to make an immediate decision on who gets treatment? Refer to a full committee so both patents are dead?
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What is wrong with you? Read the comments from the doctors in the article. They interpreted it as encouragement to more aggressively take patients off ventilators.
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At least in Spain, that had to happen. They ran out of ventilators and had to take people less likely off ventilators and ration them to keep younger patients alive. There are no good options when you run out of critical equipment. Think back to that time and remember that was in the middle of the push to get even automakers to start producing ventilators to deal with the shortage. At any rate, you are reading the WSJ which is pretty much guaranteed to slant their stories in the direction that causes the
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We were talking about NYU, not Spain. US hospitals, even in NYC, did not have to remove patients from ventilators. But NYU's hospital not only encouraged doctors to do that, they threatened anyone who told the public about the policy.
Do you have any criticisms of that article that are based in the same country and are not as hominem arguments?
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It sounded like they were worried about running out and preparing for that eventuality since the US was running low and other countries had already run out. Again, remember that was at a time when the entire US was panicking about running out of ventilators, somehow the article is missing all of that context. And yes, I can guess why they would want to keep that quiet, the outrage from people who take a policy like that in the worst possible way would cause them a lot of trouble.
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What is wrong with you? Re the WSJ.com article. What exactly do you expect doctors to do if they are on the verge of running out of ventilators and have to make an immediate decision on who gets treatment? Refer to a full committee so both patents are dead?
Patents? Nice slip there. They certainly kill plenty with patents too.
Death panels have been around a fuck of a lot longer than you think, and grow well beyond pandemic-driven decisions.
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"Single-doctor death panels" LOL Entrope, you're an idiot.
May you be diagnosed with a need for "futile intubation" (from the link in the post).
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More or less insane than excluding yourself from a job market which requires an arbitrary piece of paper?
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More or less insane than excluding yourself from a job market which requires an arbitrary piece of paper?
Well... but if they got a job they might have to go work for a woke company you see so it's not worth it. Though I'm not sure how that squares with "get woke go broke", because surely that would mean all the woke employers have gone broke and there are plenty of nice regressive ones to go and work for. It's like the woke are simultaneously utterly incapable, useless and failing hard at everything while a
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Well... but if they got a job they might have to go work for a woke company you see so it's not worth it.
Indeed. Suicide by starvation in a country which offers no social safety net is so much better than having to work for someone who someone else considers "woke". /sarcasm
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The degree requirement was often just an easy way to thin out the candidate pool when there were more people than jobs. Now there is a worker shortage and any place that still demands a degree for a job that just didn't need it will lose out.
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Absolutely, but don't confuse worker shortage with lack of people who have degrees. Unless you have an inside track past the first few culling stages in HR they are much more likely to hire some dumbass who can only just spell their name over someone who is missing that all important piece of paper.
Regardless of how you look at it, the odds are stacked against you.
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As employers here have to fight harder to get workers, many are dropping the degree requirement. At any rate, I'm happy to not work at places who require degrees, I make decent money without one.
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More or less insane than excluding yourself from a job market which requires an arbitrary piece of paper?
To be honest, I would rather work somewhere that allows 'equivalent experience' where appropriate than somewhere that does not. I'm not talking about the people designing aircraft, but maybe the people managing servers.
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College has been too expensive for many years but paying full price for a lesser experience since Covid restrictions is insane.
But because of the pandemic, a huge cross-section of students learned that online classes are in most cases a reasonable (in experience, if not in price) substitute for on-campus presence, MOOCs are about to take over in higher eduction.
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Kind of funny how remote learning* is called the "lesser experience".
*Remote learning, you know? One of the justifications for the internet and broadband as a utility and a human right argument.
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Kind of funny how remote learning* is called the "lesser experience". *Remote learning, you know? One of the justifications for the internet and broadband as a utility and a human right argument.
Not sure how many people making those arguments ever said their goal was for internet and broadband to completely replace other forms of education. Everything I have ever seen treated it as a supplement of other traditional education methods.
Thinking back on what I learned in college... (Score:2)
The STEM stuff was much better than the rest, although a lot of it went out of date fast. As for humanities, I got way more benefit from Project Gutenberg than I ever got from college.
Typical for a society with many poor (Score:5, Insightful)
That is a society with lots of people close to or over the poverty-line. If some larger crisis hits, many people cannot afford to get a decent education anymore.
No, the diverse claims of "college is not worth it" to be expected here and in other places do not reflect the truth. They are just people trying to put a good spin on a bad thing.
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The trouble is you hear these stories about people paying student loans for 20+ years; along side the statistics that show in terms of lifetime ROI there is no better investment than in a degree.
Reality of course is that is to simplistic a look at it and both things are true. If you are actually intelligent, study the right discipline and to and even greater extent go to the right school and meet the right people you can enjoy a great deal of success, in the later case probably outsized success.
On the other
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A lot of those people at and below the poverty line are there because they are below the average intelligence curve too.
And that's why we punish them.
I mean either this is not true - in which case its projection to justify the fact that people live in extreme poverty in the richest country in the world (they are thick, its their own fault).
Or it is true. In which case we deliberately punish those unable to look after themselves (or at least, do not look after them).
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statistics that show in terms of lifetime ROI there is no better investment than in a degree.
OK, let's put this all aside for a moment and talk about reality.
Love. Honor. Ethics. Morals. Friendships. Relationships. Family.
When it comes to real ROI across a lifetime, I can think of a hell of a lot of things that are far more valuable.
The Disease of Greed has infected mankind for thousands of years. We'll likely die right here on this warmongering rock, forever addicted to it. Perhaps it's time we wise up and understand that in 20-40 years, you won't even be able to justify educating a human
Re:Typical for a society with many poor (Score:5, Informative)
No, the diverse claims of "college is not worth it" to be expected here and in other places do not reflect the truth. They are just people trying to put a good spin on a bad thing.
You've got more job security and earning ability if you go to trade school and learn how to be a builder, a plumber, a joiner, an electrician. School leavers are pushed towards IT and business by the bucket load and as a result there's far too many graduates in those fields for the jobs available. Meanwhile there's a serious shortage of building tradespeople.
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Union might be better, but you can do an electrician apprenticeship with a non-union house and get your ticket in most states. You are still highly employable.
But, there is huge variation in pay, pain, and career length for trades. Doing it from 18-40 might be fine, but 50-60 can be pretty rough on people if you have not moved up.
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Then you work your way through a building boom and right into a bust where there's no work, and you'd better have another job skill or you're gonna be living in a rotting motorhome in the back of bumfuck poaching or starving.
This is a true story, not my story though.
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University enrolment is up during the pandemic in Canada, France and the UK (those are the three I looked at), and worldwide, continuing long-term trends. The US seems to be an outlier.
Hopefully it's just the mystique the US has enjoyed since the end of WWII dissipating and international students deciding to go to school elsewhere, but I suspect instead that you're right and it's a domestic problem.
Observations from the inside (Score:5, Interesting)
State schools have not seen massive price increases and the cost is not insane. For online my school is the same price and it should be because we already have our buildings paid for and we do not pay property tax. Any savings from being closed has gone into zoom etc. We do not have 1/3 of our budget for advertising like private schools...
One small source of cost increase has been top-heavy admin bloat which is a combination of PC positions nutty liberals want and BS oversight and a high pay business mindset from the corporatists. If anywhere needs less management it is the universities (not that we don't have problems, but management does almost nothing.)
MOST cost increases that people do see with state schools is largely a long time push by Republicans to privatize all education resulting in lower and lower funding resulting in students paying more. Then add the corrupt student loan system... High School was NOT free until it became necessary and a wiser generation decided to fund it... Life is more complex today and that trend continues.
Professors in the public system mostly are screwed over more than k-12 teachers. We take pay cuts almost yearly (for my 2 decades) and every 8 years or so the union fights with the state to get us a pay raise. This makes up for inflation as we're told but when you do the math you see it falls short! note: they never win back the 8 years of lost income. We also get a bunch of BS paperwork to make sure we never even think of going on TV or doing something controversial; you can thank Nixon for starting the war against us.
Today's students: Pathetic! Foreign students are unchanged. Future looks dim if you can't get the good students to stay in the USA.
I have to fail more and more students every year as they get worse. This is for courses where I've done the same thing and the only major variable are the students. They come in knowing nothing, they attempt to google and outsource their homework (I used to catch them hiring Indians now more subscribe to "tutoring" services!) So they lack the background and habits to succeed; people also curve and inflate. They think they know something when they do not because the system and their parents have bent over backwards to accommodate. Stopping 25% in and saying "I'm done, now praise me" happens. I never witnessed this in Gen X or Boomers; neither of those is known for hard work. I won't completely let staff off the hook as we've migrated to lazy powerpoint readers and premade multiple guess coursework -- both have lost their drive... It's like the classic (pre-internet) cartoon of a classroom full of tape recorders in place of students and the teacher replaced with a tape player.
I'm not an addicting by design app or an on-demand streaming service or constantly in their pocket like their IQ draining anxiety phones. Everybody; including you curious reader, is being fought over for your time by more companies than ever in history armed with more psychology than educators could hope for. Other culturally toxic behaviors are at play as well. I won't even go into the failure of parenting... Or how zero-tolerance birthed the authoritarian intolerance from the right and the left (the left being more trouble on campus.) This isn't just a static perspective in a changing society that can come with age; it's different, this is real with a fair amount of studies to cover details which lead to bad conclusions... and of course people don't like unpleasantness at all so I've lost most of them paragraphs ago..
Re:Observations from the inside (Score:5, Informative)
State schools have not seen massive price increases and the cost is not insane.
This is completely false. State schools have increased at a higher rate than private schools.
In the period 1985-2019, private 4 year colleges have gone from an average tuition of $9,228 to $44,662, and increase of 384%. This is in current dollars, adjusted for inflation.
In the period 1985-2019, public 4 year colleges have gone from an average tuition of $3,859 to $20,598, an increase of 434%. This is also in current dollars
Median household salary in 1985 was $52,012 in current dollars, making private colleges cost 18% of income, and public colleges 7.4%.
Median household salary in 2019 is $68,703, making private colleges cost 65% of income, and public colleges 30%.
Those are median household salaries, before taxes, not what the average single person is bringing home in their 20's and 30's. If two people in a household go to college, then a public college would be 60% of income, and private schools 130%.
Sources:
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/... [ed.gov]
https://stats.areppim.com/stat... [areppim.com]
Google
mathematics
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You wrote "average tuition", but you're pulling statistics from your first link which include "total tuition, fees, room and board rates" for the $20,598 figure.
Actual current public in-state average tuition & fees is reported as $9,687 at U.S. News here [usnews.com].
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We do not have 1/3 of our budget for advertising like private schools...
If today's towering tuitions represent larger numbers of students vying for a limited number of spaces, then why do colleges need to advertise at all? That's money that could be going into labs and improving faculty salaries. Or do high tuitions just mean cartelization, like medical prices?
Re:Observations from the inside (Score:5, Insightful)
As a fellow faculty member, I agree with 90% of this, particularly on the bloat from increased administration numbers and salaries. At the moment my institution is cutting faculty lines and simultaneously hiring newly-made Dean positions. It's quite pernicious -- since outsiders aren't aware of the distinct cultural split in colleges, teachers are having more and more responsibility and benefits taken away from them, and simultaneously get blamed for the deteriorating conditions.
There's a pretty good book written a few years ago on this trend: Benjamin Ginsberg, The Fall of the Faculty [amazon.com].
Education gives decades of benefit to a country (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Education gives decades of benefit to a country (Score:5, Insightful)
What we should be doing is supply-side solutions. Provide loans and assistance to people wishing to create a new college or university. Build more state universities to compete with private universities. That will increase supply, dropping prices, allowing more kids to afford college without needing a loan. Demand goes up, but only because it's chasing supply (i.e. as a result of the lower prices).
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The problem we have is we can't decide if these universities are schools or research institutions. The mass education model does not fit with the traditional research institution model.
Look at China - their schools are schools - their research institutes are research institutes and paid for by doctor doom granting them US tax dollars.
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At the very minimum federal student loans should be free of interest. The government gives out interest free loans to banks all the time.
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Maybe the solution is to just make it free to everyone who meets the required educational standard. Lots of countries do that, same as school is free.
It works well because the cost is more than covered by the extra tax skilled employees bring in, and the more general economic benefits of having a highly skilled workforce.
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Build more state universities to compete with private universities. That will increase supply, dropping prices...
It takes a bit more than erecting a building and putting the word "school" on the front to fix this.
Sadly, we'll be struggling to find educators who are willing to put up with the bullshit. Just as we are today. (No, a 10% bump in pay is not going to entice them. Not to put up with your precious entitled fuckstains.)
And that's before we deal with the problem of re-educating educators to ensure we're building schools instead of more political indoctrination camps.
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Not all education leads to an economic benefit. I have one friend who got her degree in English literature and after a decade of doing well in her schooling, is now left without any available jobs in her field, worse yet many jobs consider her overqualified and won't give her a job in fear that she will look for something better and quit.
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Right. There are shortages of editor positions, so that's out. There are a shortage of University positions so teaching there is out. I can't imagine her around high school students so that is out. The slightest tech issue gives her a panic attack so that is out.
But they promised her a job and told her that there were jobs waiting for her when she graduated. They didn't look at her other competencies or see if that program was even right for her.
Re:Education gives decades of benefit to a country (Score:4, Interesting)
China selects top students when they're young and grooms them to go to university.
In the US we provide extra funding for students who are less intelligent or can't behave in class so they won't be "left behind". The top students don't get the extra attention that would benefit society in the long run.
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China selects top students when they're young and grooms them to go to university.
In the US we provide extra funding for students who are less intelligent or can't behave in class so they won't be "left behind". The top students don't get the extra attention that would benefit society in the long run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Ur71ZnNVk
If the US Military can legally and logically say No, then society should figure out a way to do the same and accommodate the 10% of society that represents an anchor in education.
Problem here is, politicians want a moron army. (Score:2)
More for less (Score:2)
Virginia Tech had thousands on waitlist (Score:3)
My daughter got waitlisted at VT and ultimately didn't get in with a 4.07 unweighted. 42,000 applications for under 7,000 slots.
Re: Virginia Tech had thousands on waitlist (Score:3)
Any school giving out a 4.07 GPA undermines the relevance of a student's GPA.
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I hear ya. Whats even better is she barely made the top half in her class (49%).
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I noticed this odd trend this year too (I'm a Blacksburg resident BTW). I know the Computer Science Dept. had well over 10x the number of applicants as open slots, and many examples of kids with above 4.0 not making it.
1) I also noticed in the article that public schools, like VT, didn't drop over the years; Instead the private schools did.
and
2) You have to realize that both Apple and Google announced major campuses to be built an hour and a half south of VT in the Triangle Park area. I bet all the universi
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"My daughter ... didn't get in with a 4.07 unweighted."
How do you have an unweighted GPA over 4.0?
Heidi Aldes is asking the wrong people. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Heidi Aldes is asking the wrong people. (Score:4, Insightful)
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"Conversations with students", means conversations with people who did enroll
You're making assumptions about which students they were having a conversation with. I don't see TFS say "conversation which students who did enrol and did get accepted". Just the word "students".
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You're making assumptions about which students they were having a conversation with. I don't see TFS say "conversation which students who did enrol and did get accepted". Just the word "students".
If they're not enrolled, they aren't students.
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TFA: "A disproportionately high number of students of color withdrew or decided to delay their educational goals, she says, adding to equity gaps that already exist in the Minneapolis area."
You have to be an enrolled student to withdraw, now don't you.
"To help increase enrollment, her team is reaching out to the high school classes of 2020 and 2021, and they're contacting students who previously applied or previously enrolled and stopped attending."
High school s
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When we are talking about students of colleges, the only definition of student which matters is "a person who is studying at a school or college."
There are other definitions, but they are irrelevant here, because we are talking specifically about college enrollment.
I am obviously not a sockpuppet, I've been here for a long time.
I also do not have any sockpuppets; that's much harder to prove obviously, so you're going to have to decide for yourself how much of a dumbshit you want to be.
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So high school students applying for enrollment don't matter? Don't tell them or their parents that. You'll be lynched.
Heidi Aldes asked the right people. (Score:3)
When we are talking about students of colleges, the only definition of student which matters is "a person who is studying at a school or college."
Even the summary disagrees with you in the first quoted paragraph.
but experts were waiting to see if those students who held off in the fall would enroll in the spring.
If they haven't enrolled yet, they aren't college students.
But they can still be high school students.
There are other definitions, but they are irrelevant here, because we are talking specifically about college enrollment.
No, we are talking about all students. High school students and why some of them didn't want to enroll in college. Plus college students and why some of them are dropping out or deferring.
Read the article. It's quite clear.
you will be happier (Score:5, Informative)
As a plumber making 70k-100k after your one year of school and four year apprenticeship, than most jobs you'll get after four years of college and an entire mortgage of debt. Go into a trade, kids! The work is honest (and there's demand), you'll have less debt, and the only 'office politics' is about how much butt crack is acceptable at work.
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I don’t have any friends from my youth in the trades, but I do know and work with a large number of them. If non-union, poor people skills, and non-entrepreneur it does get rough around 40, earlier if you get injured. The key for most job satisfaction is to save money consistently and invest it in something to diversify your income.
Style guide (Score:2)
So the Slashdot Editor's Style Guide requires that "FBI" be witten as "America's FBI", to avoid confusion with foreign FBIs.
But only America has "colleges".
Or do they just not give a shit.
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So the Slashdot Editor's Style Guide requires that "FBI" be witten as "America's FBI", to avoid confusion with foreign FBIs. But only America has "colleges". Or do they just not give a shit.
Don't worry, they'll fix it in the repost a few days from now.
Want an interesting career which pays GREAT ? (Score:2)
get into renewable energy technology - as a *trained* technician.
Not COVID, it is an ongoing trend (Score:2)
Shrinking Population Demographics (Score:3)
A primary, long-term, and easily-predicted cause for reduced enrollments is simply a fall in population numbers for traditional college aged-students. Generally speaking, there's really not much colleges can do to correct for this. From a 2018 article at U.S. News [usnews.com]:
Nathan Grawe, an economist at Carleton College in Minnesota, predicts that the college-going population will drop by 15 percent between 2025 and 2029 and continue to decline by another percentage point or two thereafter.
"When the financial crisis hit in 2008, young people viewed that economic uncertainty as a cause for reducing fertility," says Grawe. "The number of kids born from 2008 to 2011 fell precipitously. Fast forward 18 years to 2026 and we see that there are fewer kids reaching college-going age."
Birthrates failed to rebound with the economic recovery. The latest 2017 birthrate data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention posts new lows, marking almost a decade of reduced fertility.
Unemployment (Score:3)
You can't get unemployment if you are enrolled in college.
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They also spoke
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The guy who made that welder, and the one who made the laser went to college.
An educated populace is a good thing for a country, but it does tend to pay out more in the long term as opposed to next year's job numbers.
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Are worth more than any undergrad degree.
-jcr
Not when you're applying for a job which requires a degree it's not. Unless you have an inside track to skip the front HR gate all the experience in the world doesn't help you when the computer auto-rejects you for lacking a specific piece of paper.
Although, I have to say I disagree in part with your underlying comment as well. In many colleges you're taught a certain way to think and approach a problem. Now that way may not be suitable in every scenario, and an organisation should in no way be staffed by p
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Are worth more than any undergrad degree.
-jcr
Not when you're applying for a job which requires a degree it's not. Unless you have an inside track to skip the front HR gate all the experience in the world doesn't help you when the computer auto-rejects you for lacking a specific piece of paper.
Unless there is a very high risk involved (such as medical doctor), there is little justification for employers to not change their outdated ringknocker mentality.
I have three words; Or Equivalent Experience.
Employers can either recognize the value of that, or enjoy the after-effects of prioritizing adult children with a piece of paper.
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Unless there is a very high risk involved (such as medical doctor), there is little justification for employers to not change their outdated ringknocker mentality.
I agree with you completely. Employers don't, and that's the problem. However broken you and I think the system is, it is nonetheless the system we have. Until that system changes you can either play the game or struggle.
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Right NOW there is a shortage of workers signing up to be fucked over, because they have an alternative.
Once that alternative goes away, people will be lined up to be fucked over again. And employers will have so many job applications to sort through that they will again be desperate to filter out most of them. And one of the easiest ways to do that is to require a degree. Then you at least know that your potential hires can jump through hoops, and most employers love hoops.
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This. I removed the college degree requirement from all of my job listings. I don't care if you have a degree. I care if you can get the work done from a technical standpoint and have the soft skills to sell it.
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Not when you're applying for a job which requires a degree it's not. Unless you have an inside track to skip the front HR gate all the experience in the world doesn't help you when the computer auto-rejects you for lacking a specific piece of paper.
Almost .. heck .. it's getting close to 20 years ago, I wrote a book that talked a great deal about how to get around that gate. 20 years ago it was a lot more difficult. While there are, absolutely, employers with an impassable autofilter on applications, there are also now many employers who explicitly reject the notion of filtering candidates that way. Is your scope of potential jobs limited? Absolutely. Is there still room to find remunerative and meaningful work? TOTALLY. And in today's labor market, those walls - while not exactly crashing to the ground - are becoming more and more porous.
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No not really 4 years of collage is worth about 8+ years of work experience.
I have worked people who are just Self Taught and never went to college. They can get the job done, however I find them often struggling in the most random places. It is often like they opened a Textbook read the first chapter, then jumped to the Appendix and just picked whatever feature they wanted to use.
For example I have seen code that doesn't interact with the Database via ODBC or some more readable method. But access the Dat
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Reality begs to differ.
Here in the UK at least McDonalds proves you wrong. Lots of graduates flipping burgers here.
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>"Here in the UK at least McDonalds proves you wrong. Lots of graduates flipping burgers here."
Here in the US, also. Getting a degree is just one tool of many. Plus, far too many people are getting degrees that have no useful application, or in something for which there are few jobs, or in a field which they really have no aptitude. Plus, having interviewed/experienced many degreed vs. non-degreed people, it is apparent getting a degree doesn't coorelate all that well with many other important employm
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Also says the someone with over 20 years of real life experience, working across many institutions, Consulting, Manufacturing, Retail, Tech, Health Care...
Overall the person with the College Degree is going to be able to handle Changes Much better, and be adaptable to job requirements, as well be more pro-active in their job, bringing up new things to the table.
Those without degrees, tend to stick to what they are good at, and have a much harder time when the status quo changes.
That non-degree person may b