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How an Army of Goats Could Help Prevent California Wildfires (vice.com) 125

An anonymous reader quotes a report from VICE News: California has unleashed an army of goats to munch away at overgrown brush and grass throughout the state in hopes of reducing the risk of wildfires this summer. State agencies have deployed the animals to roam, eat, and wipe out highly flammable vegetation. Recently, in an area near Lake Oroville in Northern California, between 350 and 400 goats cleared nearly five acres of land. And on Sunday, 1,500 goats are scheduled to begin clearing 34 more acres in the area -- by eating everything from invasive species to poison oak to thistle. The animals have also been contracted out to different cities around the state concerned about wildfires, including Anaheim, Oakland, and Los Angeles.

The initiative is part of the state's "Fuel Load Management Plan," started in 2012, which is aimed at reducing large patches of overgrowth throughout the state -- a major source of fuel to wildfire spread. Originally, the state used boots-on-the-ground crews of people armed with chainsaws and wood chippers to clear brush. But California has decided that in some areas, it's goats, not humans, that can help the most. "They eat everything," Kryssy Mache, an environmental scientist at the California Department of Water Resources, told VICE News. And they can also reach up to five feet in the air to nibble tree branches. "It's just another cool concept that we're using. It's not just humans going out and making the difference -- we can also use goats." But the goats are usually just Phase One. In the fall, human crews will come in and trim up area that goats cleared to ensure it remains less vulnerable to fire, according to the DWR.

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How an Army of Goats Could Help Prevent California Wildfires

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  • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:03AM (#61479722) Homepage Journal

    Goats are a great way to clear because they will clear things like poison oak, which is especially nasty when burned, and they turn it into... goat, the world's most popular meat, specifically because they're hardy and can eat almost anything.

    However, you would need an absolute arseload of goats to make any significant dent in California's fuel load.

    The only realistic way to solve it is to stop building flammable homes, and start setting more fires like the natives used to do. They maintained this land for over 10,000 years, they might know what they were doing.

    • by Anonymous Coward

      They maintained this land for over 10,000 years, they might know what they were doing.

      But were there 330 million of them? Things might be a little bit different now...

    • by xevioso ( 598654 ) on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:36AM (#61479754)

      Goats...see? https://modernfarmer.com/wp-co... [modernfarmer.com]

    • The only realistic way to solve it is to stop building flammable homes, and start setting more fires like the natives used to do. They maintained this land for over 10,000 years, they might know what they were doing.

      They might, but then things are different [youtu.be] than they were 10,000 years ago as well. Extraordinary circumstances demand extraordinary solutions.

      • They might, but then things are different than they were 10,000 years ago as well. Extraordinary circumstances demand extraordinary solutions.

        Okay, but goats aren't that solution, they don't scale well. What do you suggest is?

        • Better than going around STARTING fires during a drought.

          • Better than going around STARTING fires during a drought.

            California is in a perpetual state of drought cycles, and is likely in for a long continuous period of drought. The best time to have gone back to setting these fires is decades ago. But waiting isn't going to make it better now, either. It's only going to result in larger unplanned fires, because we've been preventing too many of them for too long.

            • We will have to wait for the climate to warm up some more. The rainfall will increase and California will change to a humid subtropical climate. This cool, dry weather is a disastrous anomoly.

        • by mspohr ( 589790 )

          Goats can easily scale. Just put few of them together and you magically get more goats. I'd love to see California overrun with goats. Much better than the wild horses which overrun Nevada and cause much damage.

        • Goats do scale well. Mountain goats are the best alpinists, they can scale sheer cliffs

      • Way to show your ass. The majority of time in California that the natives were settled there would have been what we consider conditions of extreme drought. The 18-1900s were extremely wet for California, geologically speaking.
        https://www.mercurynews.com/20... [mercurynews.com]

    • by I75BJC ( 4590021 )
      Actually, the use of Goats is a half-way step to reintroduce Forest Management.

      The fires in California, that are reported in the national media, start in their forests and move to the house.

      Goats appear to be a slow return to Forest Management. California's State Government stopped actual Forest Management. This neglect of the Californian forests and the unintended consequence (though not unforeseen consequences) are the causes.

      Houses and the communities in California are not the problem.

      Quite
      • by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday June 12, 2021 @10:04AM (#61479836) Homepage Journal

        California's State Government stopped actual Forest Management.
        [...]
        Houses and the communities in California are not the problem.
        Quite blaming us!

        Wrong. Both are the problem.

        The natives didn't just set fires. They also didn't build structures they expected to persist for long periods in places which needed to burn. Not building flammable long-period homes in forests is part of forest management.

        • California's State Government stopped actual Forest Management. [...] Houses and the communities in California are not the problem. Quite blaming us!

          Wrong. Both are the problem.

          The natives didn't just set fires. They also didn't build structures they expected to persist for long periods in places which needed to burn. Not building flammable long-period homes in forests is part of forest management.

          Not building houses where it doesn't rain helps with "water issues" too. But this is California ... enjoy your "great weather".

        • by clovis ( 4684 )

          They also didn't build structures they expected to persist for long periods in places which needed to burn. Not building flammable long-period homes in forests is part of forest management.

          Also, the natives didn't expect other people to rebuild those structures for them, whether through lawsuits or insurance.

      • "Quit blaming us!"

        Why, *you* (assuming you have built out in the sticks somewhere) are the problem.
        Only asshats build 10s of kilometers from a firestation, and then complain that when a natural - fucking annual ! - event like a brush fire burns their house to the ground. Don't want your house to burn, build it out of adobe, with a tile roof, and in a clearing away from any undergrowth - you know, like people did 100 years ago.

        I grew up in a California that was mostly that, and idiots didn't build in the

      • California's State Government stopped actual Forest Management.

        58% of forests in California are managed by the federal government. State-controlled forests amount to 3% [ca.gov].

        Houses and the communities in California are not the problem.

        Quite blaming us!

        This is like saying bears are the problem when new communities are built in or near forests.

    • Natives weren't that good. You will find many places they had to abandon because they "drained the well dry" and poisoned the land

      • There are such places, but they are in the minority, and most of them were hard places to live in the first place.

        Regardless, we're talking about California right now, and successful forest management. The entire western seaboard from around Point Sur well up into Canada used to be redwood forest, from the coast to the range.

        • We are locusts.. in fact, if the goats don't work out..

          Proper resource management will require a whole new thought process, away from maximum profit for one thing. Nobody wants to do a thing because, capital expenditures.. I just read where California has a 75 billion dollar surplus (or is it 38 bil [ca.gov]?), and instead of repairing infrastructure and practicing proper forest/water management, despite the drought and the fires, they want to give everybody a tax refund. It's pretty easy to see why they have a prob

          • They aren't wrong to at least consider those tax refunds; It's putting a finger in a leaky dike. The state lost a a lot of people to migration in 2021, mostly from the expensive high-tax metros. Economically, that's extremely dangerous. There are negative feedback loops in that system that could cause major economic problems. 2008 showed us very clearly that people will walk away from homes when the value of a home drops significantly below the mortgage.

            Data Point: Average rent was down 30% from the p

    • However, you would need an absolute arseload of goats to make any significant dent in California's fuel load.

      So what you’re saying is the goats really curry flavor with the environment, making billions of true American gyros in the process?

      Sold!
      Please, sir, may I have another?

    • However, you would need an absolute arseload of goats to make any significant dent in California's fuel load.

      No kidding (so to speak).

      They're talking 70 to 80 goats per acre for one project, 44 for another. The projects aren't just a one-day operation but last for a while. (I recall commuting by one project near Milipitas where they were using what I'd guesstimate at about 40 goats to clear a mile or so of the grass on one side of the freeway. They did a great job but it took a couple weeks.) So call it

      • by ffkom ( 3519199 )
        Given how delicious goat meat is, and how many US citizens own guns, is that really a problem? I mean, if you declared "open season around the year" on goats, how long would it take to decimate their population again?
        • Given how delicious goat meat is, and how many US citizens own guns, is that really a problem? I mean, if you declared "open season around the year" on goats, how long would it take to decimate their population again?

          Hasn't worked for wild boar in CA, which have gone from a limit of one a year to one a day to as many as you want, just since I moved here. Also this is California, where much of the area is off-limits to hunting and the animal leftists are trying to make shooting anything illegal.

          • I don't know how true it is (and I'm too lazy to spend what remains of my Sunday afternoon tracking the truth down), but I have heard that the deer problem out east was not a problem until the movie Bambie made it uncool to be a deer hunter. Now they seem to be everywhere, and cars do little to cull them.

            • As someone who once worked in forest management, I can tell you a big part is the problem IS the hunters.

              They typically don't want to go more then a mile off road, and they EXPECT many deer to come to them and to never go home empty handed.

              They were always describing the PA deer population as "dangerously depleted" (LOL) and lobbying for MOAR DEERS. Every forest understory in that state has a nice clean vegetation line at 3' as it is. Yeesh.

      • by clovis ( 4684 )

        Millions of goats means millions of baby goats which are one of the most adorably cute animals on the planet.
        I'm looking forward to the flood of baby goat antics on youtube.
        IDEA! Californai could monetize those baby goat videos to pay for the project. And spin-off merchandise and animated cartoons.
        And and ... we can have furry clubs for people wearing baby goat costumes.

    • by antdude ( 79039 )

      Baby goats are great. I can joke I have kids! ;)

  • Might get upset about the competition.
  • by xevioso ( 598654 ) on Saturday June 12, 2021 @09:35AM (#61479750)

    Goats...see?

    https://modernfarmer.com/wp-co... [modernfarmer.com]

    Just goats...see? Eating grass?

  • ... but they will clear a forest of green undergrowth and generally most leafy things, but not grass unless they are trained to or have nothing else to eat. They are browsers not grazers.

    Although they will eat bark and some woody twigs and branches, they won't clear an area of dead scrub. You need people (preferably forest raking Finns) or a fire.

    • I guess they could add some sheep into the herds. Has been done already ages ago in the Middle East.
      • Yep, and you can mix in some llamas to kick the shit out of predators, so you don't even need dogs, nor constant human supervision.

        The problem with goats is that if you let them get out of hand they eat everything. But these days we can just put a tracker on every goat.

    • by HiThere ( 15173 )

      One thing they do eat, however, is young trees. Range a bunch of goats through a forest for awhile and after awhile you don't have a forest. This is supposed to be what happened to the Biblical "Cedars of Lebanon".

      • Yes, exactly. Any young trees or saplings. Plus they like pine and spruce bark and shoots, especially the young green tips in the spring.

        They won't eat up the dead bushes unless they are starving.

      • by mspohr ( 589790 )

        Actually, you don't want a lot of new tree saplings. You want a nice mature forest with widely separated mature trees and as little undergrowth as possible. The problem with most California forests is that they are too thick and dense with too many trees crowded together. Some efforts have been made to remediate this by going through and cutting down thick stands of trees and undergrowth leaving larger well spaced trees but this is very expensive to apply on a large scale.

    • [goats] will clear a forest of green undergrowth and generally most leafy things, but not grass unless they are trained to or have nothing else to eat. They are browsers not grazers.

      For areas where it's mostly grass and weeds, cattle are good. (PG&E seems to be using them to keep the tall grass and weeds down at the substation near the west end of Auto Mall Parkway in Fremont CA, for instance.) Cleared fields where grass and weeds are coming in are one candidate area. Low-water rangeland is another.

      W

      • Horses like thistle as well but usually only late in the season. Field full of nice pasture grasses with a couple of thistle patches and the herd is all in the middle of the thistles and munching away.

        I do believe that the dire complaints about domestic stock farts are, um, over blown.

        • I do believe that the dire complaints about domestic stock farts are, um, over blown.

          Hear hear!

          I've never figured out why those worried about cow farts think that the other critters that eat the plants fart any less - especially since many of them have substantially less efficient digestive tracts.

          For instance: It may take a lot of rabbits to fart as much as one cow (or let the pellets outgas between the first and second pass through the rabbit). But it also takes a lot of rabbits to eat as much as a cow.

  • Start more fires (Score:4, Informative)

    by stikves ( 127823 ) on Saturday June 12, 2021 @11:16AM (#61479982) Homepage

    Yes, heard it right.

    Before "the white man cometh", the natives used to start small controlled fires to get rid of the excess fuel in the Yosemite area:
    https://atmos.earth/yosemite-i... [atmos.earth]

    With all their wisdom, and "trying to preserve the nature, and reduce greenhouse gases", we have banned the practice. In fact it is said that even collecting dead bushes for camp fires is a punishable offense. You have to bring your tinder with you.

    But, forest fires are a required part of the ecosystem. In fact we write articles about how "redwood seeds need fire to grow":
    https://www.pbs.org/wnet/natur... [pbs.org]

    Even then, we go and stop every fire that will get rid off the excess dead wood. And all of a sudden all those combined fuel start ablaze and even the entire state coming together cannot stop it.

    Do not fight the nature. You can never win.

    • Just ask Yellowstone.
    • I don't know, I mean, as long as it's not in my backyard, *chuckles* those firestorm tornadoes look pretty bad ass. The fact that they really occur in nature and not just when it fits the movie plot is just astonishing.

    • Yeah, but people live there now. If you start more fires you'll burn down their houses.

      There are slightly more houses in CA now than there were 500 years ago.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • by dgatwood ( 11270 )

        No worries. We'll just unleash wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the goats. And we've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

        • by Megane ( 129182 )

          ...and when winter comes, the gorillas will simply freeze to death.

          (I came here looking for this and was not disappointed. And yes it will be a bit hard for gorillas to freeze in California, so shut up.)

    • These are perfectly valid concerns about goats per se - they have a long and miserable history of promoting soil erosion, deforestation and overgrazing almost everywhere they are introduced - but the more general idea of getting some drought-tolerant beast to chow down on underbrush isn't so bad. But for fucks sake, use some piece of fauna indigenous to the area. And encourage a local control on the populations too (so, death penalty for humans who kill "mountain lions", wolves and other regional apex preda
    • 1) No, this is a rather well respected, common science based approach.

      2) The goats are NOT wild. They are a herd that is rounded up and taken to different places. They are eventually killed and eaten. We can do that because they are not let loose. So they do not eat random man made things. Also, that is mostly a myth, they far prefer plants unless they are starved. They are not stupid.

      3) The main problem there was AUSTRALIA, not the rabbits. Also we are not freeing the goats, we are rounding them u

  • Just don't stare at them.
  • by Oligonicella ( 659917 ) on Saturday June 12, 2021 @12:24PM (#61480114)
    It works. We use them on kudzu around here. Nothing else eats that crap.

    To those worried about them becoming invasive: They're not just "set free". They're tethered to an old tire and moved daily.
  • You have to take the goats away before they also eat the trees.

  • What we need are rakes. Giant rakes on the back of pickup trucks. We must rake the forest.
    • ..and comb the deserts.

      -wait I've seen this movie!
    • by adrn01 ( 103810 )
      Or just tie a rake to the back of the goats.
    • Look up "tractor rake" sometime. Depending on the type, you can get ones for soil smoothing, brush removal, or even root removal. Also useful to setup fire lines to contain wild fires or control burns.
  • Years ago, when living on a farm, we had goats.
    Fun little creatures which will eat anything,
    yes anything,
    but mostly what they would prefer to eat.
    They escaped from their enclosure,
    up the paddock,
    down the other side of the paddock,
    across the road,
    into the dairy farm,
    into the nice lush pasture,
    through the fence,
    into the neighbours prize rose garden.
    Weren't we the favourite neighbours.

    • We visited a rescue farm yesterday, and they had half a dozen goats. They had to wire the door knobs on their sheds so the goats couldn't open them.

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