More Vaccinations, Less Pushback: America's Vaccine Mandates Are Working, Says Public Health Professor (seattletimes.com) 308
Last month U.S. President Biden issued "a mandate that all companies with more than 100 workers require vaccination or weekly testing," remembers the New York Times, and "also moved to mandate shots for health care workers, federal contractors and a vast majority of federal workers, who could face disciplinary measures if they refuse."
So what happened next? Until now, the biggest unknown about mandating COVID-19 vaccines in workplaces has been whether such requirements would lead to compliance or to significant departures by workers unwilling to get shots — at a time when many places were already facing staffing shortages. So far, a number of early mandates show few indications of large-scale resistance. "Mandates are working," said John Swartzberg, a physician and professor at the School of Public Health at the University of California, Berkeley. "If you define 'working' by the percentage of people getting vaccinated and not leaving their jobs in droves."
Unlike other incentives — "prizes, perks, doughnuts, beer, we've seen just about everything offered to get people vaccinated" — mandates are among the few levers that historically have been effective in increasing compliance, said Swartzberg, who has tracked national efforts to increase rates of inoculation...
[T]he pushback has been less dramatic than initially feared. At Houston Methodist Hospital, which mandated vaccines this summer for 25,000 employees, for example, only about 0.6% of employees quit or were fired. Dorit Reiss, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco who is tracking employer mandates, said that, despite their propensity for backlash and litigation, mandates generally increase vaccine compliance because the knowledge that an order is coming has often been enough to prompt workers to seek inoculation before courts even can weigh in. Mandates are becoming more commonplace as several other states have imposed requirements for workers. In New York, Rhode Island, Maine, Oregon and the District of Columbia, health care workers must get vaccinated to remain employed.
The Times's article (original URL here) provides statistics from specific examples:
So what happened next? Until now, the biggest unknown about mandating COVID-19 vaccines in workplaces has been whether such requirements would lead to compliance or to significant departures by workers unwilling to get shots — at a time when many places were already facing staffing shortages. So far, a number of early mandates show few indications of large-scale resistance. "Mandates are working," said John Swartzberg, a physician and professor at the School of Public Health at the University of California, Berkeley. "If you define 'working' by the percentage of people getting vaccinated and not leaving their jobs in droves."
Unlike other incentives — "prizes, perks, doughnuts, beer, we've seen just about everything offered to get people vaccinated" — mandates are among the few levers that historically have been effective in increasing compliance, said Swartzberg, who has tracked national efforts to increase rates of inoculation...
[T]he pushback has been less dramatic than initially feared. At Houston Methodist Hospital, which mandated vaccines this summer for 25,000 employees, for example, only about 0.6% of employees quit or were fired. Dorit Reiss, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco who is tracking employer mandates, said that, despite their propensity for backlash and litigation, mandates generally increase vaccine compliance because the knowledge that an order is coming has often been enough to prompt workers to seek inoculation before courts even can weigh in. Mandates are becoming more commonplace as several other states have imposed requirements for workers. In New York, Rhode Island, Maine, Oregon and the District of Columbia, health care workers must get vaccinated to remain employed.
The Times's article (original URL here) provides statistics from specific examples:
- "When Tyson Foods announced Aug. 3 that it would require coronavirus vaccines for all 120,000 of its U.S. employees, less than half of its workforce was inoculated. Nearly two months later, 91% of the company's U.S. workforce is fully vaccinated, said Dr. Claudia Coplein, Tyson's chief medical officer."
- "In New York, where some 650,000 employees at hospitals and nursing homes were to have received at least one vaccine dose by the start of this week, 92% were in compliance, state officials said. That was up significantly from a week ago, when 82% of the state's nursing home workers and at least 84% of its hospital workers had received at least one dose."
- "As California's requirement that all health care workers be vaccinated against the coronavirus took effect Thursday, major health systems reported that the mandate had helped boost their vaccination rates to 90% or higher."
Too bad. (Score:2)
Fewer stupid people = better America.
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It might in the swing states.
I don't like the term "mandate" (Score:3, Insightful)
These are simple if-then statements:
IF you work for a company that I control, THEN you will be vaccinated ELSE you won't be working for me
IF you want your kid to go to public school, THEN your kid will be vaccinated.
IF you walk into a store that requires masks, THEN you will wear a mask ELSE you can be forcibly ejected from the premises.
IF you choose to homeschool your kid, THEN you are free to keep your kids entirely unvaccinated.
IF you choose to own your own company, THEN you are free to (require the covid vaccine) OR (only hire unvaccinated people) OR (something in between)
Get the idea? Freedom cuts BOTH WAYS. I should have no right to push a needle into your arm. Equally true: you should have no right to aggressively spread your COVID to me and my kids. If you don't want the vaccine, fine, you've increased your odds of getting a well-earned Darwin award by a few tenths of a percentage point. That's on you. Just please do your slowly-choking-to-death-routine somewhere far away from me.
Re:I don't like the term "mandate" (Score:5, Insightful)
In a nutshell, freedom isn't freedom from consequences; it's freedom to choose the consequences you'd prefer to live with.
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This is known as "The right to swing your fist ends where your fist meets someone else's nose."
In principle, it's simple and nearly everyone agrees with this. In practice it gets complicated. This is nowhere more easily seen than in the "swinging fist"/"nose" quote: it was popularized by Prohibitionists in the campaign for the Eighteenth Amendment. There's no doubt that alcohol abuse has effects that spread far beyond people who choose to drink in excess, but the Eighteenth Amendment was overreach.
If the
Re:I don't like the term "mandate" (Score:4, Insightful)
You are confusing someone who is unvaccinated with someone who is ill. This has led you to reach multiple incorrect conclusions.
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The vaccine reduces the likelihood of being infected and of getting symptoms. Therefore, given a random vaccinated person and a random unvaccinated person, the probability that the unvaccinated person is ill is greater than the probability that the vaccinated person is ill.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:I don't like the term "mandate" (Score:4, Insightful)
It still cuts both ways. If you "force" someone to get an unwanted vaccine, they can "force" you to "get/not get" something else.
Do you really want majority rules on medical decisions?
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Re:I don't like the term "mandate" (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm all for disability exemptions. If someone has a real diagnosis, from a real doctor i.e. MD degree, licensed and practicing, that they shouldn't be vaccinated... then, yes, as a society we should be tolerating people with true disabilities and making accommodations for them. But a signature from some random fundamentalist evangelical chiropractor in Florida doesn't count.
With regards to religious exemptions, I'm quite skeptical. The current conservative movement is ALL about defining everything as a religious issue, so they can do whatever they want. Actually, the current conservative movement is being amazingly LIBERAL about what they consider religion aka anything the feel like. And the US supreme court seems bent on allowing accommodating them. I think they should be careful what they wish for. The same strategy can work for left-wing ideas equally easily, and power swings back and forth in this country. I could see a future where some religion defines socialism as a religious imperative. Do we accommodate them? I'd prefer to keep religious exemptions quite constrained. Some people are pacifist because the bible says "thou shalt not kill". That's pretty clear cut. But there's nowhere in the bible where "and so Jesus sayeth thou shalt not partake of m-RNA vaccines for they are the work of evil so god speaketh hallelujah". Sorry, absolutely nothing in the bible about vaccines. No. No religious exemption for this topic.
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Every religion *already* says to take care of the less fortunate.
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The Old Testament can be warped and twisted in all manner of different ways. For example:
http://www.clinlabnavigator.co... [clinlabnavigator.com]
You can't give Jehovah's Witnesses blood transfusions. There are a few sects of Christianity that have used the same passages - and others - as a reason not to accept injections of any kind, including vaccines. Still other Christians obsess over whether fetal stem cells harvested from aborted fetuses were used in the production of a vaccine.
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Are you sure about that?
https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]
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Schools and public transit, where contagions go to be fruitful and multiply.
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And? Finish the thought.
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Even though children are not as vulnerable to severe COVID-19 as older people, vaccinating children on their 12th birthday is important to slow the transmission route of unvaccinated child to unvaccinated classmate to vulnerable grandparent.
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And? Finish the thought.
We should try and minimize these major transmission vectors?
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Honestly, if you're unvaccinated and you get seriously ill, you really shouldn't go crawling to the ER when it bites you in the ass. The decision to not get the vaccine is a YOU thing. You're rolling the dice, so you'd better know the odds before you try it.
Been exposed to multiple variants of Covid for over a year hundreds of times? Probably don't need it. You're battle tested.
Been hiding in a basement during lockdown the entire time? You have no proven immunity.
'Natural selection' is forcing a correction (Score:2)
My only real regret here is the pandemic isn't killing off al
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My only real regret here is the pandemic isn't killing off all the idiots, or the agenda-driven assholes who encourage them to continue being stupid, it's only killing off the stupidest of them.
But this will, with any luck at all, serve as a teachable moment to everyone else: be stupid and you'll die.
Does it make you feel any different lamenting that ALL the unvaccinated aren't dying to know that 18-24 year olds are the least vaccinated age group (increases with age), or that the majority of blacks and hispanics are unvaccinated [kff.org]? If so, why? Is this something you are already aware of?
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"The anti-vaxxers and 75IQ CHUDs who refuse to observe the annoying yet effective and necessary measures to control and end the pandemic are dying off in droves"
I doubt they are dying off in droves. According to the stats, we've lost about 700,000 total since the start of the pandemic. That's not enough to scare the panties off the right wingnuts. It is enough for the government to try to put a stop to it. The right wingnuts response is more or less: we're not dead yet so you can't make me. The government's
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I know many "front line/essential" workers who were driven into the Covid-19 miasma out of necessity last year (most of them in May 2020) and who have stayed there - unvaccinated! - for the entire pandemic, through Delta and all the other variants. Most of them are autoworkers in one of the few plants to stay fully operational throughout most of the pandemic. Those employees specifically have been wearing cloth or paper masks the entire time, often using the same mask for 10-11 hours straight. Many wear
Not surprising (Score:2)
And the carrot doesn't work on screaming oppositional defiant toddlers.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Insightful)
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They only demand ID in such cases because it's actually *unlawful* for them to sell it to a minor.
It's not unlawful to not be vaccinated.
Otherwise, you'd have a point.
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Here, there are health orders with the force of law that says certain non-essential businesses have to ask to see your vaccination status and refuse service to the unvaccinated. The 80% that are vaccinated are getting awfully pissed off at these arseholes who want the pandemic to continue, businesses to fail and regular people not getting medical care as they've filled up the hospitals and a 80% majority (here) can vote to remove your rights. I hate to say it but at some point being vaccinated may well be t
Re: Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Interesting)
Okay. Then I guess I'm out.
Please. You're not going anywhere.
Hate to break it to you pal, but the US hasn't enjoyed "good statecraft" since forever. The political wedge was driven long before Covid. All it took was a couple of knuckleheads to politicize a pandemic which otherwise could have been solved by reasonable people. But as you point out, misbehavior, agitation, and rage are all quite popular these days. So since a reasonable effective approach by all seems unlikely, other approaches are necessary which will inconvenience some for the greater good of all. Tough titty, I suppose.
Re: Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Interesting)
That's what gets me about this whole thing. We know what Covid-19 is. We know how to prevent its spread. We know how to make and test vaccines. We now have them, and we know that they are safe. This is an immensely solveable problem.
Instead of solving it, people used it as an opportunity to cause conflict and strife, and to make things worse.
Now consider how much more complex the problem of climate change is, and how much worse the outcome is if we don't solve it, and solve it soon.
Before the pandemic, my assumption was that all humanity would need is an obvious, common enemy, and we'd figure out how to come together and fix things. If I think of Covid-19 as a test run for climate change, it's obvious that, regardless of how obvious a problem climate change will become (and I think it's pretty damn obvious already), we're not going to come together, and we're not going to solve it.
It's no coincidence that scientists are now researching where the savest place to survive climate change is. It's no coincidence that smart, rich people are all moving to New Zealand. We're screwed.
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Re: Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Informative)
More GOP projection [washingtonpost.com]. That talking point ceased to be valid long ago.
Whites and Blacks are about equally likely to say they're vaccinated (about 7 in 10 of each) while White Democrats are far more likely than White Republicans to say that they are (93 percent to 60 percent). White Republicans are also far more likely to say they won't get vaccinated, a position one-fifth of that group holds.
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I guess you don't read much= blacks are most likely to be unvaxed.... guess who they vote for?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/0... [nytimes.com]
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Actually the right has realized it. At least the politicians.
That is why they are creating laws that make it harder to vote in general, and passing laws so they can overturn an election if it doesn't go the way they want.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Funny)
Airport's that way. We won't shoot you for trying to leave.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Insightful)
But you'll drive on roads where you're required to provide your ID to the officer that stops you. You'll deal with bank tellers that require you to provide your ID to access your accounts. You'll show, and demand that other people show, a very specific form of ID to vote.
User ID checks out.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Funny)
But you'll drive on roads where you're required to provide your ID to the officer that stops you. You'll deal with bank tellers that require you to provide your ID to access your accounts. You'll show, and demand that other people show, a very specific form of ID to vote.
User ID checks out.
You’re failing to not apply logic here, I’m sure there is a very personal, emotional, and urgent reason why these are so different.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Interesting)
I’m sure there is a very personal, emotional, and urgent reason why these are so different.
Probably because the people resisting haven't gotten past the "Me" vs. "Us" stage of development, which means they certainly aren't ready for "Us" vs. "Them". An (unrelated) example of this is episode 30 of The Good Place [wikipedia.org], The Snowplow [fandom.com] (S3:E4) after Eleanor gets angry that the study group is breaking up:
Eleanor: You're a brain scientist. Can you tell me why I did that in there?
Simone: I mostly do clinical research in neuroscience. I don't really specialize in temper tantrums. Maybe you need a child psychologist. Or a binky.
Eleanor: That's a solid burn. I deserved it, I did. But please, can you help me? Why did I do that?
Simone: Okay, here's my guess. As humans evolved, the first big problem we had to overcome was "me versus us." Learning to sacrifice a little individual freedom for the benefit of a group. You know, like sharing food and resources so we don't starve or get eaten by tigers, things like that.
Eleanor: Okay, with you so far.
Simone: The next problem to overcome was "us versus them," trying to see other groups different from ours as equals. That one, we're still struggling with. That's why we have racism and nationalism and... why fans of Stone Cold Steve Austin hate fans of The Rock.
Eleanor: No, we hate The Rock because he went Hollywood, and Stone Cold keeps it real, so The Rock's fans are the real jabronis. [pause] Point made. Keep going.
Simone: Well, what's interesting about you is. I don't think you ever got past the "me versus us" stage. I mean, have you ever been part of a group that you really cared about?
Eleanor: I was in the Girl Scouts.
Simone: Really?
Eleanor: Technically, I joined under a fake name because I wanted to steal a bunch of cookies.
Simone: See, the Brainy Bunch is basically the first group that became part of your self-identity. And now that's breaking up, you're feeling this new kind of loss, and you're scared of going back to being alone. I mean, that's just my guess. The other possible medical diagnosis is that you're just a bit of a dick.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Insightful)
And if you could catch HIV by being in the same room as an HIV patient, you might have a point.
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Well, if it's a bedroom...
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They don't allow the activity you're thinking of in school.
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If the kids are boinking in the classroom, I suspect the teacher will notice.
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As for COVID and schools, the COVID vaccination should be required for kids who are eligible for it (currently age 12 and up in the U.S.) if we can mandate chicken pox vaccine, surely we can mandate COVID vaccine.
Until the vaccine is approved for younger children, masks and distancing should be in place for them.
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No, the flow of history is not "a little suspect." We knew from day one that SARS-CoV-2 is highly transmissible without direct contact. That's why the guidelines included social distancing from the outset. The only debate was whether six feet was really enough.
Take your revisionist history back to whatever agenda-pushing source you got it from, and see if you can get a refund. Tell them nobody's buying BS today, we're full up.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually I remember having to have a suite of vaccinations to attend public schools back in the pre-internet days. I also remember doing the same thing for my own children to attend public schools before the GQP came into power.
Re: Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Insightful)
The rationale being argued is that "Because passports are a form of calling me a liar. And I won't patronize a business that calls me a liar to my face." There is no false equivalence.
That wasn't even the contention. You have to show your ID to the officer that stops you. That's a form of calling the driver a liar according to OP's logic.
You have to show your ID to prove your identify. That's a form of calling the voter a liar according to OP's logic.
Except to prove that people are vaccinated and thus present a far lower and more reasonable risk of transmitting the virus, as well as becoming infected by the virus, and especially becoming seriously ill due to the virus (let's not pretend that the "duty to provide a safe environment" lawsuits are not already being filed).
You're going to have to present more than a bare conclusion here. The equally valid rebuttal to your current argument: no they are not.
Massively disproportionate you say? [kff.org] With a gap of 8% that's closing at 1% per week? I don't think so.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Insightful)
Help I'm being oppressed, says someone from the most privileged group of people.
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Help I'm being oppressed, says someone from the most privileged group of people.
What group would that be?
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Insightful)
Help I'm being oppressed, says someone from the most privileged group of people.
What group would that be?
We can start with "American" and get more specific if necessary.
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We can start with "American" and get more specific if necessary.
I appreciate the response however I would rather the person who made the original comment respond.
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We can start with "American" and get more specific if necessary.
I appreciate the response however I would rather the person who made the original comment respond.
Oh, I totally get it. You're pulling a "what do you mean, 'you people'." It's just not helpful.
Is this your first time on the internet (Score:2)
I don't see a lot of people calling people liars, so you're strawmanning there. What I *do* see is anti-vaxxers making a scene, like
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Post your 45% source (also pretty funny that everytime that gets posted here the percentage has to increase. Last month it was 35%)
https://www.kff.org/coronaviru... [kff.org]
The largest increases in vaccine uptake between July and September were among Hispanic adults and those ages 18-29, and similar shares of adults now report being vaccinated across racial and ethnic groups (71% of White adults, 70% of Black adults, and 73% of Hispanic adults). Large gaps in vaccine uptake remain by partisanship, education level, a
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Is there an internet law for when you can't distiguish conservative concern trolls from bad AI bots? At least you are not even pretending to engage in anything approximating discourse because you know you have none.
Re: Is this your first time on the internet (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you bear no responsibility for the chaos that ensues after you shout "fire!" in a crowded theater?
I don't know what you have said, but I do know that the people who spread misinformation share in the responsibility when other people make poor decisions because of that misinformation.
You're spreading lies and misinformation (Score:2)
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Seeing you invoke the name of God is a bit ridiculous.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not calling you, personally a liar. It's recognizing that liars exist, and that the simplest and most practical way to tell them from honest people is documentation.
You could make the same argument for not requiring motorists to carry their license. Going on the honor system won't make a difference in *your* case, but we're not worried about people like you. We're worried about the kind of people who would drive with a revoked license and then claim to be someone like you.
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How do you feel about voter ID?
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Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Informative)
Biden is the duly elected president in whom we have collectively vested powers to execute the duties of the executive branch. His mandate extends no further than the power we elected him to have. He isn't mandating vaccines to every American, only to the ones within certain operative spheres. He doesn't need Congressional approval because that past elections have already given the US president this authority. There are ample court precedents to support mandates, many from past epidemics.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Insightful)
The only person with complete freedom to do anything they want is the person who is completely alone on a forgotten South Pacific island. Meanwhile in reality, my right to swing my fists ends where your nose begins. And your right to willfully remain a vector for a horrifically infectious disease that leaves around 1/5 of its victims with long term disabilities - regularly including among other things massive, largely irreversible lung damage - ends where your desire to participate in society begins.
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:5, Interesting)
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then most people able to hold down such a job for more than two weeks in a row won't want to add periodic testing to that list of items. So they'll get the vaccine and get on with thei
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To carry your argument to its conclusion you have to *demonstrate* that mandates are tantamount to bullying. Merely to claim it unsupported is tantamount to assuming your conclusion. I could prove *anything* I don't like is bullying using the exact same argument.
Now "bullying" is notoriously hard to define, but every proposed scholarly definition that I've seen has these two elements; (1) an imbalance of power and (2) an intent to harm. For any government action I will give you the imbalance of power, so
Re:Okay what's pushback? (Score:4, Funny)
So you're saying getting a vaccine shot is like having sex?
I guess you don't have much experience in at least one of those things.
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Last month U.S. President Biden issued "a mandate that all companies with more than 100 workers require vaccination or weekly testing," remembers the New York Times, and "also moved to mandate shots for health care workers, federal contractors and a vast majority of federal workers, who could face disciplinary measures if they refuse."
I guess I see your point though -- that they don't apply universally to every single American.
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Re:Mandates are racist (Score:5, Insightful)
Care to tell me why I give a fuck what they say?
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I see.
Put the label on the pile back there where I collect the labels someone tried to put on me, I'll ignore later. I think there should still be some room between fascist and pinko commie.
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Besides your post; how do you end up with -1, Insightful? Is this some kind of bug?
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Yes, that was back when you could still go over 5, or below -1, as i remember it.
Re:FDA approved when? (Score:5, Informative)
Consider: WHEN DID THE FDA APPROVE THIS VACCINE?
August [fda.gov].
When was this vaccine generally approved (not emergency-approved) by the FDA? (Have they all been?) What large-scale studies have been conducted?
You should really do a basic search before asking these questions, it will make you look less ignorant.
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rhetorical: 2. of a question : asked in order to make a statement rather than to get an answer
Re:FDA approved when? (Score:4, Insightful)
Be more specific. You asked a rhetorical question because you know that if you actually answered it yourself, you would be wrong.
That's why conspiracy theorists always ask questions instead of making statements. A classic technique, and you got caught.
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Not really. All he's saying is: the vaccine in question hasn't changed since it was introduced. Emergency and full authorizations don't change how it works or what (if any) side-effects are associated with it.
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The FDA approved the vaccine 30 days ago and now it's mandatory for all workers in all companies with 100+ people? (Err???)
Approved means not experimental. So what's your problem?
The test group is the many million people who got vaccinated when it had emergency use authorization and tens of thousands who got it as part of the trials.
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The Salk polio vaccine took about 3 years. Moderna's COVID vaccine took about a year to emergency authorization. Of course that's after 70 years more experience developing and testing vaccines and using a technology that's intrinsically safer.
The approval timeline was entirely appropriate. If the usual sluggish pace of the FDA was accelerated to reasonability by a giant political boot to the ass, so be it.
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And COVID has killed more than the lot of them put together and doesn't even have to pretend to care. Also it can't be sued. Then there's the fact that it's a disease. For some reason, you trust it more than a well tested vaccine.
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It's better known in the U.S. as the Pfizer vaccine and it is quite commonly given in the U.S.
Did you not do your research, just want to spread disinformation, or did Putin tell you to say that?
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Look again comrade.
You DO know how to use Google, right?
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Let's see, vaccine with very good preliminary results vs. a nasty virus that if it doesn't kill you, stands a good chance of maiming you and your bank account for life. Ya, I can see why you are short-sighted.
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Why did it take so long for anyone to post this? Biden's mandate is hung up in court, and its enforcement hinges on OSHA of all things. It won't pass muster. All it does is give companies that already wanted a mandate for themselves the courage to introduce one of their own volition.