Intel Not Considering UK Chip Factory After Brexit (bbc.com) 283
The boss of Intel says the US chipmaker is no longer considering building a factory in the UK because of Brexit. The BBC reports: Pat Gelsinger told the BBC that before the UK left the EU, the country "would have been a site that we would have considered." But he added: "Post-Brexit... we're looking at EU countries and getting support from the EU." Intel is investing up to $95 billion on opening and upgrading semiconductor plants in Europe over the next 10 years, as well as boosting its US output. But while Mr Gelsinger said the firm "absolutely would have been seeking sites for consideration" in the UK, he said Brexit had changed this. "I have no idea whether we would have had a superior site from the UK," he said. "But we now have about 70 proposals for sites across Europe from maybe 10 different countries. "We're hopeful that we'll get to agreement on a site, as well as support from the EU... before the end of this year."
Microchips are vital components in millions of products from cars to washing machines, but they have been in short supply this year due to surging demand and supply chain issues. It has led to shortages of popular goods like cars and computers and driven up prices - issues Mr Gelsinger said were set to continue into Christmas. "There is some possibility that there may be a few IOUs under the Christmas trees around the world this year," he said. "Just everything is short right now. And even as I and my peers in the industry are working like crazy to catch up, it's going to be a while." He said things would "incrementally" improve next year but were unlikely to stabilize until 2023.
Microchips are vital components in millions of products from cars to washing machines, but they have been in short supply this year due to surging demand and supply chain issues. It has led to shortages of popular goods like cars and computers and driven up prices - issues Mr Gelsinger said were set to continue into Christmas. "There is some possibility that there may be a few IOUs under the Christmas trees around the world this year," he said. "Just everything is short right now. And even as I and my peers in the industry are working like crazy to catch up, it's going to be a while." He said things would "incrementally" improve next year but were unlikely to stabilize until 2023.
That's what they wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Informative)
UK has the fifth largest national economy in the world, it is not a "small player".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
The margins are a bit small between 5th and 7th place on that list of national GDP so UK may lose it's top 5 position for a variety of reasons but getting out of the top 10 is unlikely without some earth shattering event.
I remember some politician claiming that because of Brexit the use of the English language in the rest of Europe would disappear. Whatever. The official language of OPEC is English. During the Olympics all public announcements are required to be in English, French, and the native language of the host nation. By international law the pilots of vessels that travel internationally by air or sea must be proficient in English. International banking in done in English. I'm sure I can some up with more examples on the need to know English in Europe.
Whatever the reason English is spoken in Europe it comes down to doing business with the largest economies of the world. English may not be all that common among the people of nations like China, Japan, and Germany (3 of the 5 top economies, none of which have many native English speakers) but if people from these nations get together in a room to do some business then in what language can we expect them to converse? Hindi? Japanese? German? Russian? Or English? Probably English. Why English? Because these same people will likely have to do business with USA, Canada, Australia, and... UK.
As a side note...
I have begun to wonder why is it that Russia seems to get so much global influence? They are not a top 10 global economy. Not any more. They do have nuclear weapons, but then so do many other nations. They have a large military, but then so do other nations. They have a space program, but then so do many other nations. After all this time and their not so great economy I have to wonder how many of their nuclear weapons actually work. Russia has nuclear powered submarines, icebreakers, and other vessels, which one would assume gives them the ability to project military power globally. I read somewhere that if any of the Russian nuclear powered icebreakers were to try to leave the Arctic circle that the ships would overheat for lack of ice cold water to cool them. It should be obvious that it is possible to build nuclear powered icebreakers that could go to break ice around Antarctica. It should also be obvious that being able to break ice around Antarctica would be a good idea for any nation with ambitions to extend their influence around the world. Therefore it is likely safe to conclude Russia has no such ambitions.
Russia is not near the global force it used to be and yet seems to get more respect than nations with greater economic output such as UK. Canada has more economic output than Russia. People around the world might dismiss Canada as little more than "America's hat" but they are no joke. No doubt Russia can still be a major threat to neighboring nations because of their military and economic capability but Canada would likely come out ahead if Russia and Canada were to have a war. The UK would certainly win in a fight against Russia. Australia could likely beat Russia single-handedly. This will certainly be true once Australia gets their mitts on some nuclear powered submarines, which is supposed to happen soon.
My point is that UK has a lot of money, a powerful military, and so many other things going for it that it is not a "small player" in much of anything. UK is a "giant". Maybe when compared to the European Union the UK may not look so big but that requires treating the combined might of France, Italy, Germany, and other EU members as a single entity. That may make EU the biggest kid on the block, perhaps bigger than even China or USA, but that still puts UK in the top 5 since EU contains Germany, and Germany is in 4th place in economic output.
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
FYI: Russia is a regional power, Russia has neither the military nor economic might to project power far outside its borders but because of its sheer size that power can easily be mistaken for global power such as that the U.S possess.
Big Tech market caps ... Apple alone is worth almo (Score:2)
st as much as the UK
AAPL - 2.43 T .9822 T
MSFT - 2.15 T
GOOG - 1.75 T
FB -
These numbers were all higher like a month ago.
Re: (Score:2)
>> Spain has Spaxit supporters, France Frexit.
Yeah, but we are not that dumb.
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
"because of Brexit the use of the English language in the rest of Europe would disappear" ...) its status as an official language of the European Union will not disappear.
Unfortunately, most of the World do not speak English. They speak Americanish, or USA-ish, or whatever it is called.
And as long as the European Union will contain countries where English is a "legal" language (like Malta, Ireland,
As for Russia's influence... partially it has a huge economic clout because large parts of Europe depends on Russian gas for heating in the winter. And the natural gas market doesn't really have elasticity, or second sources.
Also, there's the Russians' capacity to do acts of war abroad (like poisoning the citizen of other countries) and suffer through the consequences.
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Funny)
The lingua franca will always be english! (If you don't appreciate and mod me funny for that joke, may all your beer be warm like the britts).
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
The lingua franca will always be english! (If you don't appreciate and mod me funny for that joke, may all your beer be warm like the britts).
Yes, but this is because English is an extremely fault tolerant language. You can mangle words, sentence structure, grammar, the lot and still have it understood by a competent English speaker. To do business in Mandarin, you need to speak it very well, to do business in English, you just need to speak it.
Even Spanish doesn't come anywhere near to being as fault tolerant as English, plus a lot of people who are used to a non-European based language often really struggle with the concept of conjugation.
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You had to bring up the aluminium thing. Still think the US spelling sounds wrong, though for history:
https://www.spectraaluminum.co... [spectraaluminum.com]
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Had. After the damage of Brexit and Covid it will be #7 at best.
This is a historical artifact. English is not the first trade language, as the term "lingua franca" literally shows, and won't be the last.
That is the same inert
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I remember some politician claiming that because of Brexit the use of the English language in the rest of Europe would disappear.
It's fun to judge a government by the single stupidest thing an elected politician said. It's not particularly useful though, but since you're probably either American or English I'll happily play the game with you. We could raise the stakes and make it only elected officials who held high office at the time of utterance if you like...
The official language of OPEC is English.
And
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The official language of OPEC is English.
And you know Ireland which is a member state.
Ireland is a member of OPEC? When did that happen? Someone should update the Wikipedia page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
How many OPEC members have a majority of the people that speak English? How long have they been a member?
This bit of trivia about OPEC using English as its official language stuck in my memory because of how odd it seemed that a group of nations would come to agree to use a language that was foreign to all of them. It makes sense once one realizes just how much each nation hates e
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
UK has the fifth largest national economy in the world, it is not a "small player".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ [wikipedia.org]... [wikipedia.org]
The economy of a country itself is irrelevant to a business. What is relevant is the economy of a trading block and the amount of barriers to trading. That pushes UK far down the list beaten by effectively *any* EU country, and if Intel wasn't targeting the EU specifically it also puts UK below Canada and Brazil who both give access to the NAFTA.
Or to put it another way you could build a factory in the UK and have free access to a country with a GDP of $3120bn
Or you could build a factory in Montenegro with it's GDP of $4.9bn and yet have free access to an economy with a GDP of $15167bn.
That's not hard math.
The UK chose to isolate itself. That makes it a small player. In terms of desirability it may have the 5th largest GDP of any nation, but it's down the list somewhere in the 50s behind the EU countries, American countries, and Pacific rim countries in terms of desirable location to put a new manufacturing facility.
I have begun to wonder why is it that Russia seems to get so much global influence? They are not a top 10 global economy.
Because it's a member of multiple trading blocs including the CIS and the EAEU all of which increases the desirability of a country by reducing the expenses and overheads of corporations dealing with them.
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:5, Insightful)
>> Or you could build a factory in Montenegro
How stable is the government in Montenegro? ... until the CCP decides otherwise.
You could also build a factory in China and have free access to the world's second largest economy
What you get in the UK is a large economy with a stable, democratic government that respects the law.
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UK has the fifth largest national economy in the world, it is not a "small player".
The USA has states with a stronger economy than the whole UK. Britain is an also-ran.
Re: That's what they wanted (Score:2)
Fifth largest overall, pre-Brexit. But it was based on services that the EU won't be permitted to utilise as the UK aligns with the US.
But You are missing the point... (Score:2)
It doesn't matter how big a SINGLE economy the UK is. It's about the MARKET you can reach when you manufacture there. And the UK hasn't actually managed to get any decent trade deals going, that makes it a favorable position over any other non-EU country in the region. Nor does the UK have any geographical or natural resource advantage, that would make it a favorable place to put an IC manufacturing plant.
This is specifically, because the UK is not the major consumer of those chips. All of Europe is, and pr
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That list lists traditional countries. It's a bit nonsensical from a business perspective; why would California not be in it while Germany is? From a business perspective, all countries in the EU are one. When taking that into account, the UK remains at the 5th place but it's economy is a mere 20% of the smallest economy from the top 3: the EU. Outside of the top 3, the only place where Intel has a fab site is in Israel.
Within the EU there may be an additional factor, and that's ASML, which totally dominate
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Maybe you should look at the GDP based on purchasing power parity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
That might partly explain why you observe Russia punching above it's weight based simply on size of economy. And you should look at labour costs, which makes it much cheaper for such countries to achieve more.
Anyway, I'd expect Ireland to become the US's gateway to the EU now, even after annoucing an increase corp. tax simply because of English and cultural ties (how many Americans claim to be Irish-Americans
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I’d suspect that regional trade blocs are what will matter the most. These will provide a strong localised trading base that also hold more sway when negotiating with other regions. The U.K., by leaving the EU has made external to any regional trade bloc, far weakening its ability to negotiate.
For the major trade blocs:
- ASEAN
- APEC
- BRICS
- EU
- NAFTA
- CIS
- COMESA
- SAARC
- MERCOSUR
- IOR-ARC
Source: https://www.exportgenius.in [exportgenius.in]
Is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
The choice between anywhere in EU 20+ countries where they can hire anyone among these 20+ countries, vs in one country with a limited pool of workers. Unless your main clients are all in UK, why would any sane company choose UK instead of EU?
This is entirely expected before the Brexit referendum, and still the Leavers voted for Brexit. Well, you got who you voted for, now you enjoy the results. I just wonder when would the pound fall.
Narrow focus (Score:2, Interesting)
This is entirely expected before the Brexit referendum, and still the Leavers voted for Brexit. Well, you got who you voted for, now you enjoy the results. I just wonder when would the pound fall.
One problem with our current political discourse is where people narrowly focus on one small aspect of a large, multivariate problem in order to sell their side of the story.
And it gets worse if the MSM highlights that one report and downplays others, swaying the public opinion one way or the other based on the narrow, highlighted aspects instead of the overall benefits or costs.
So in this case the UK lost a chip factory due to Brexit, but (also due to Brexit) more of the tax revenue stays in the UK.
The UK
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There won't be a factory, there won't be any tax revenue.
Yeah, no. The problem here isn't the media. It's in your mirror.
Re:Narrow focus (Score:5, Insightful)
The UK will be shattered because of Brexit. No-one has managed to name ONE single metric where the UK is better off after Brexit. Not one. Sure, in theory more taxes remain - but the UK was a net beneficiary of the EU taxes, so that does not make up for it.
When it's hundreds of things getting worse, and not one getting better, the answer to your question ought to be rather clear.
Re:Narrow focus (Score:5, Funny)
No-one has managed to name ONE single metric where the UK is better off after Brexit.
They have the most empty space on their shelves ready for innovative new products.
They almost never get stuck behind a petrol tanker on the motorway now.
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No-one has managed to name ONE single metric where the UK is better off after Brexit.
They have the most empty space on their shelves ready for innovative new products.
They almost never get stuck behind a petrol tanker on the motorway now.
Alternative modes of transportation has already diminished their reliance on petrol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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No, you get stuck behind the cars that ran out of gas on the motorway instead.
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"So in this case the UK lost a chip factory due to Brexit,"
Well, to be fair, the UK lost its place in the race for a chip factory - there were 70 sites suggested in 10 EU countries.
Whether the UK would have been able to won, and whether the factory would have remained on UK soil for long are questions without clear answers.
(and yes, large companies closing down shop and moving is always a possibility - see Nokia and its Germany-based plant in Bochum).
Re:Narrow focus (Score:5, Informative)
but (also due to Brexit) more of the tax revenue stays in the UK.
Got a reference for that? Or are you just pulling that out of thin air? Because the UK had (as in many instances) a special treatment with the rest of the EU: the rebate. So the UK never lost anything to the EU since 1985.
As for tax revenue itself, with nearly all UK industries reporting drops in sales due to the loss of access to the single market... I really can't see how tax revenue could ever go up.
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but (also due to Brexit) more of the tax revenue stays in the UK.
Got a reference for that? Or are you just pulling that out of thin air? Because the UK had (as in many instances) a special treatment with the rest of the EU: the rebate. So the UK never lost anything to the EU since 1985.
As for tax revenue itself, with nearly all UK industries reporting drops in sales due to the loss of access to the single market... I really can't see how tax revenue could ever go up.
I believe the reference is https://i.insider.com/5a5dbcf5... [insider.com] (I wish I could say he was joking).
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More tax revenue?? (Score:3, Informative)
Lots of Evidence (Score:5, Insightful)
One problem with our current political discourse is where people narrowly focus on one small aspect of a large, multivariate problem in order to sell their side of the story.
But it isn't just "one small aspect" when it comes to Brexit it's lots of aspects some of which are quite serious and noticeable. First UK export businesses dealing with perishables were severely damaged by customs delays, then there was the problem of shipping to Northern Ireland which still has not been addressed, supermarkets can't keep shelves stocked due to a combination of a lack of delivery drivers and difficulty with imports, next there is the lack of lorry drivers causing petrol stations to run out of fuel and now Intel is cancelling a major chip factory and there is an ongoing dispute with France over fishing that threatens to disrupt power.
When supermarkets can't stock the shelves, the army is called in to deliver fuel to petrol stations and businesses are shutting down left, right and centre you have _serious_ problems. This is not just a normal recession it's an economic crisis and even the government tacitly acknowledges it was caused by Brexit since their solution to e.g. the lack of lorry drivers is to allow visas so EU drivers can drive in the UK, reversing a key change that Brexit made. Exactly how much more evidence do you need that Brexit is a raging dumpster fire?
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Exactly how much more evidence do you need that Brexit is a raging dumpster fire?
Logic didn't work up front. Evidence hasn't worked for the past few years. Heaping more on them won't make any difference.
I know someone who voted for Brexit despite working in a small business that was wholly dependent on EU exports. After the entire company folded and this person lost their job due their orders going effectively to zero they continued to blame the government and still fully supported the idea of Brexit. She's still collecting welfare checks nearly a year later.
Likewise I know someone who
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"There will be some temporary inconveniences because of the Brexit, but there were well-documented problems with the EU membership, the problems were not addressed by an uncaring remote government, and eventually the people got fed up and voted to leave." - and what might those be (apart from xenophobia and racist attitudes from the ignorant towards EU citizens)?
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The question is, was Brexit *overall* a better deal for *the people* of the UK?
So far there's been not a single success story as a benefit to the people themselves. Businesses are negatively effected, the economy is negatively affected, inflation increased, freedoms have reduced, and all the benefits of independence are totally at odds for a country which wants to be a global player. I like that you have hope, but I'm beginning to really question your judgement.
The UK will become stronger and more independent because of Brexit ...narrowly focused, individual cases notwithstanding.
Now tell us why you think that is a good thing when success of a nation and the well being of its people are measured on a gl
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So in this case the UK lost a chip factory due to Brexit, but (also due to Brexit) more of the tax revenue stays in the UK.
The UK didn't just lose a chip factory, it lost tax revenues from a chip factory. Can't profit at all from what you're not involved with.
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I live in a country which had a huge union and basically it broke down 1918... believe me the UK will need decades to recover from the Brexit we have been there done that in Austria ca 1918. Also the public view on the EU in the UK was simply wrong, decades of misinformation in the tabloids did its job. It still is and often domestic problems were constantly blamed on the EU. Also many of the Brexit problems atm are basically downplayed by a simple, but the EU has them also... main difference is, we dont ha
Re: Narrow focus (Score:2)
Except the UK is lowering tax got companies and raising taxes on low-wage workers. It is bent on losing high value industries.
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What you said.
I've seen other comments questioning "why" Brexit makes the UK unsuitable and your comment hits the nail on the head.
It's about the available workforce.
The UK *would* have been one of the first choices, due to its low business rates.
That's a very attractive prospect - or it was.
Clearly Intel have crunched the numbers, low business rates won't make up for import/export costs and a now dwindling supply of skilled labour.
It remains to be seen just how low the UK will stoop in future, to try and c
Re: Is anyone surprised? (Score:2)
It's about many things. Highly skilled engineers (Africa has a fair number of these, but it's not a single country and does not have a common language, and that complicates getting them together), the right type of sand (you can't just use any silica), access to vast amounts of water, access to vast amounts of reliable power and safe, reliable transport links for importing things like reducing agents such as pure hydrogen plus the safe export of products.
There's also the issue of reliable, high performance
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Before the EU, the UK was known as the "Sick man of Europe" and had a decade of social and labour unrest. In reality the UK as an economic powerhouse was built on their legacy of Empire, which is a lot less strong a foundation than it was fifty years ago.
Was never going to happen (Score:5, Interesting)
Let's just completely ignore that in the 90s there were a number of Fabs in the UK which all closed down [ Nat Semi, Motorola] - I worked in one of them - as their US parents sought cheap workers in the Far East.
I doubt Intel ever seriously planned to build one to start with.
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The US is very keen on having chip manufacture outside of the Far East, preferably in both the US and in friendly countries, The factory will be built.
Re: Was never going to happen (Score:2)
A chip fab in an EU country could enjoy certain tax advantages selling product inside the EU, that wasn't the case in the 90's I suspect.
Beware biased reporting (Score:2, Insightful)
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Note that the MSM, including this site, blame things on Brexit, but never report the positives, and successes, of Brexit.
What are the positives? Because Brexit didn't do anything it was supposed to do, and is currently doing a lot of stuff the Brexiteers said it wouldn't...
Re: Beware biased reporting (Score:2)
Well, the main benefit for criminals is an increasing use of Britain for money laundering and tax evasion.
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British politicans are now directly accountable to the electorate
You're hilarious.
Re: Beware biased reporting (Score:3)
There are no positives.
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Nigel Farage says ‘If Brexit is a disaster, I’ll go and live abroad' [independent.co.uk]
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Not for lack of trying. [theguardian.com]
Not a chip factory (Score:5, Funny)
Similar to what happened to Switzerland (Score:3)
Brexit isn't working (Score:5, Interesting)
Pretty much all the negative predictions made by the remain campaign and dismissed by the leave campaign as fear mongering have been vindicated.
Brexit has not made Britain Great Again, it is making the UK the sick man of Europe once again.
Semiconductor manuf. wouldn't be my first choice (Score:3)
I think we have some real skills to exploit in GB for technologies that can be exported; for addressing the challenges of global heating; developing circular economies. I would look to Europe and see what they need from a third country that would really, really benefit them. How about being the recycling masters of Europe? Don't ship your plastics and all that around the world to be deposited in a stream in Myanmar. Send them to the GB where we will develop advanced recycling technologies; where we will work with the EU on developing packaging for consumables that can be better recycled; on enzyme technologies to create usable source material from plastics.; using advanced AI techniques for sorting and separating; embracing the need for recycling and re-use for materials for batteries and electric vehicles that will be consumed in the sudden rush to electrification - where there's muck, there's brass; building yet more off- and on-shore wind energy that we can sell to Europe via the connectors, to compete with the production of electricity via gas. Grow the recycling and long term storage of nuclear waste from the French and other big users of nuclear energy in Europe. Work with the US on the development and production of new nuclear energy sources like Thorium in container sized delivery for commuity power projects and sell the products to Europe - hey, we can work with the US on nuclear power plants for submarines, why not work on making small community nukes in a collaboration?.
Hey Europe, we can be your recycling friend next door, and you don't have to worry about pesky EU regulations.
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean a country that kicked out all the truck drivers and now no one is delivering fuel.
Re: Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference is, other countries in Europe have food on their shelves, and gas in their pumps. Not a single EU country has the kind of problems the UK has.
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What grocery stores have empty sections in the USA? Even our discount second-run pull-back grocery stores are packed full of stuff.
Re: Bollocks (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah, Poland. One of the countries currently blockading freedom of movement and EU law. Remind me, how is this different from the UK?
Re: Should it surprise anyone that they don't wan (Score:5, Informative)
According to my family in the EU, you are full of shit, there are shortages in grocery stores and fuel and other energy across Europe, Poland and Germany are heavily affected, both having truck driver shortages, with France and Belgium also having issues with food supply.
I live in Europe, and visit France and Germany regularly. Either your family is lying to you, or you're lying to us all.
Re: Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Insightful)
The driver "shortage" in the EU is "we would like to hire more drivers to expand our business". The driver shortage in the UK is "Mad Max seems to be a documentary".
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The driver "shortage" in the EU is "we would like to hire more drivers to expand our business". The driver shortage in the UK is "Mad Max seems to be a documentary".
Humungus rules the Wasteland!
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I read that France is considering offering visas for haulage drivers to Brits. 5 years, bring your family, gain permanent residence and citizenship. Good conditions and pay, especially compared to the UK where conditions in particular are extremely bad for hauliers.
Meanwhile the British government has offered a temporary visa, ending at Christmas. 27 people applied.
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Nope, got to be Brexit and orange man.
Did these EU people need visas before?
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, what a shame, companies will now have to hire more local workers for more than slave wages and not pivot to the cheap immigrant labour solution every time then need to hire. My heart is bleeding.
Re: Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:2)
You could fix both of those by raising minimum legal standards and minimum wage. Besides, the UK trucking companies aren't increasing wages or conditions, they just want local serfs.
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And yet you see no problem importing cheap products and exporting profits. It's amazing how people want inexpensive products but want a living wage. The shame is that there is a shortage of fuel. My hearts bleeds for your stale argument. I would be more sympathetic if you were also arguing to stop all the imports also.
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Informative)
If Intel wants low taxes, an obvious choice is Ireland.
Ireland is in the EU and speaks English. Intel already has fabs there and two research campuses.
Ireland has agreed to raise corporate taxes from 12.5 to 15%, but that is still much lower than any of the big EU countries.
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Informative)
If Intel wants low taxes, an obvious choice is Ireland.
Ireland is in the EU and speaks English. Intel already has fabs there and two research campuses.
Ireland has agreed to raise corporate taxes from 12.5 to 15%, but that is still much lower than any of the big EU countries.
The headline tax is 12.5%, effective tax for multinationals is 0-2.5% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] I really do hope the OECD agreement comes together as Ireland at least in words have committed to a 15% effective tax rate https://www.theguardian.com/bu... [theguardian.com]
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Insightful)
The headline tax is 12.5%, effective tax for multinationals is 0-2.5% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ [wikipedia.org]... [wikipedia.org] I really do hope the OECD agreement comes together as Ireland at least in words have committed to a 15% effective tax rate https://www.theguardian.com/bu [theguardian.com]... [theguardian.com]
This is one of those wonderful "facts" that is highly misleading. Ireland collects ~12% of the revenue that is taxable in Ireland in corporation tax. In Ireland, corporations are taxed on profits generated in Ireland. If the profits are not generated in Ireland they are not taxable here. This is not the same everywhere (for instance the US taxes everyone everywhere for everything, which is why all the corporations made the US branch the subsidiary, and other countries tax where the revenue is booked). This new agreement's importance is not the tax rate, which is eye catching but significantly less important than that everyone signed up to it agrees on where and when income is taxed. The Irish had no objection to that, their objection was that the wording left it open for the minimum tax to be raised without an adjustment to the treaty. This has now been resolved.
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Thanks!
Re: Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:2)
Taxes going from 0 to 15% means the Irish government can afford to improve infrastructure, healthcare and education.
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Informative)
The 15% minimum taxrate is an 140 country effort representing 90% of global GDP coordinated thru OECD (38 members including USA, Japan, UK, Australia etc). The EU (as is) can't collect tax and each EU member state has veto power in these kinds of questions.
I see it as part of a process, MIFID (II) is another part and although that was decided in the EU alone it has had repercussions worldwide. The US is currently struggling with audits of listed Chinese companies (most use VIE structures, so no you're actually not buying a share in the company) to name another example.
My hope is that multinationals will be forced to pay something that at least resembles a fair share of taxes, the elimination of tax havens altogether and greater economic transparency. I don't believe that every step of the process is something that will benefit me personally but I'm pretty sure that the opposite, being able to avoid tax altogether and for companies to be able to hide transactions isn't compatible with organized society.
Re:Should it surprise anyone that they don't want (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the issues with Ireland used to be less than ideal transport links to the rest of Europe. Since brexit those links have improved dramatically as businesses seek to bypass the UK, through which a lot of Irish products used to flow.
Ireland would be an attractive proposition for Intel, although other countries are competing for high tech business too. There is a cluster around Eindhoven, for example. That city is well placed, people from neighbouring countries like Germany and France can commute there daily so it's easier to hire skilled workers.
Re: (Score:2)
Or maybe Intel wants to build a factory to serve all EU customers, and now that UK is out it no longer fits their need (goods movement within EU countries is tax-free and with a much lower paperwork overhead).
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Re:And why? (Score:5, Informative)
It should be obvious that Brexit has made the UK a less attractive place from which to do business because the UK is not part of the EU, and as such all the usual barriers to trade exist. The EU as a market makes the UK look like what it is, minuscule. When it was part of a greater whole that wasn't a problem. Now it is.
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I get the same question, the why is not there in the article. I think they just means, I will build elsewhere because we think someone will give us more money.
This is a chip fab, not some car kit assembly plant sticking together cars produced in the far east. It requires vast investment and infrastructure so the government subsidies will always be the icing on the cake. Key costs will be acquiring and training a skilled workforce and setting up the logistics to provide all materials, but very importantly getting specialist machines from companies like ASML and applied materials. Just the cost saving of being in the same single market as ASML is worth more than
...or maybe the competition is just better (Score:5, Insightful)
Quite possibly, it's just petty punishment because Intel's elite management disagreed with the politics of Brexit. It would be bad PR to publicly admit that this is Intel's motivation, so Intel remains silent as to why.
I am not sure what is so special about the UK. Why do they "deserve" business? Countries compete. The UK may have been on the short list before, but now they're less desirable for one reason or another. Losing easy access to EU talent would be my guess, personally. Maybe other spots are more compelling for one reason or another.
I don't view Brexit as the sole reason, but more the tipping point. It's like a job interview...maybe you got turned down because of a mistake...or maybe the person that interviewed after you just did a better job.
Re:And why? (Score:4)
Because Brexit makes it more difficult to ship product to the EU?
Because Brexit makes it more difficult to hire specialists from outside the UK?
Because the UK has been a total shitshow in the last week because there are not enough drivers to deliver fuel to gas stations?
Take your pick. Brexit makes the UK a worse place to do business. Even one of the biggest Brexit backers just announced that he was going to build his Land Rover knock-off in France.
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Oh, and because leaving the EU also left a pile of trade treaties so exports from the UK are now subject to tariffs until new agreements are signed.
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Maybe because anything Intel would make in UK factories would be subject to high tariffs when entering the EU? Maybe because attracting new employees (whether skilled or not) would be much more difficult than inside the UE (with a population of nearly 450M)?
But sure, blame it on "bad PR"
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>>Quite possibly, it's just petty punishment
Nope. Corporations don't care your silly politics, but decide on cold blood economic bases.
When you import and export a huge quantity of small and valuable part, you obviously cannot afford to do unnecessary customs paperwork for each shipment when you can avoid this high cost by being in the EU.
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Yeah the quoted bit is a nice example of the level of logic employed by the Brexiteers. They literally, really think someone is out to punish them for their shit decisions. Nope, the obvious results of those decisions are self-inflicted punishment.
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Re: And why? (Score:2)
High taxes for importing supplies
High taxes for exporting products
Transport unreliability
Poor Internet
High levels of water pollution
Unreliability of energy supplies
Non-deterministic regulations
Reduced access to skilled employees
Possible trade war with Europe
Re: And why? (Score:2)
They could try Poland, France, Norway, Germany, or Belgium. Absolutely no shortages of lorry drivers in the EU. No impact from COVID-19.
No need to look online to see if this is true.
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It's like a poor man who considers himself rich because also the rich guy has not enough money to buy a private airplane. The poor man even considers himself better off as he only needs a few pounds to buy his food, while the rich guy is about a million short for his airplane.
Re:Sad (Score:5, Informative)
Get on with your lives.
I think that's what many companies are doing...getting on with their lives...in the EU..not the UK. You get your wish.
Re:Sad (Score:5, Informative)
Get on with your lives.
I think that's what many companies are doing...getting on with their lives...in the EU..not the UK. You get your wish.
Yeah, I just can't understand this level of ignorance. I run a small business in the UK. Until last December we didn't even know what the trade deal was going to be, or whether negotiations would get pushed out again. I have a stack of letters from HMRC periodically warning me to be prepared for Brexit. There is then a link to their website to get more information, and for years this basically said they can't tell us what to be prepared for, but none the less it is important we are prepared. It was like a monty python sketch.
We are getting on with things, but it is a mess, that requires lots of effort to get things back to where they were a year ago. None of this helps me build new products, or grow sales. It's a huge waste of effort and another reason why you're going to see UK standard of living fall, even if GDP stays robust (replacing high quality GDP with low quality paper pushing work).
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Get on with your lives.
We are. Without you. It's a shame because we really did want you to join us for the ride.
You can't rewrite history (Score:2)
Prior to the referendum, the meaning of leave was undefined so as to not tie the hands of negotiators.
Also, many remainder Britons were banned from voting for reasons of geography.
So, no, those who did vote did NOT vote for anything specific OR voted for the government's preference of a return to the Common Market. Very few voted specifically for what happened.
You can't edit history to suit your agenda.
Re:Legal bribery (Score:5, Interesting)
Translation: the EU will bribe us better than the UK
Why bribe when you can just point out the EU is a free trade economy 5x the size of the UK and with significantly more trade agreements world wide.
Bribing is for the weak losers.
Re: Legal bribery (Score:2)
The EU also has a record of defending IT. Britain's chip companies aren't. Inmos got sold off to Europe.
Nor has British IT fared well. Acorn abandoned IT, Imperial Computers Limited is now just a Russian trademark. Research Machines and Cambridge Computers have abandoned making hardware. Sinclair vanished under a pile of discarded washing machine engines.
Infrastructure-wise, OpenReach is unreliable and Internet speeds are slow compared to parts of Europe.
What, exactly, woukd Intel want from the UK?
Now, the
Re:Legal bribery (Score:5, Interesting)
The EU doesn't have to bribe Intel to come. If Intel made chips in the UK they would get hit with tariffs, both on materials coming into the UK and on their products leaving the UK for the EU market.
The UK's infrastructure is crumbling too, it can't even keep supermarkets fully stocked and the army was just called in to alleviate petrol shortages.