Tuvalu Looking at Legal Ways To Be a State if it is Submerged (reuters.com) 59
Tuvalu is looking at legal ways to keep its ownership of its maritime zones and recognition as a state even if the Pacific island nation is completely submerged due to climate change, its foreign minister said on Tuesday. From a report: "We're actually imagining a worst-case scenario where we are forced to relocate or our lands are submerged," the minister, Simon Kofe, told Reuters in an interview. "We're looking at legal avenues where we can retain our ownership of our maritime zones, retain our recognition as a state under international law. So those are steps that we are taking, looking into the future," he said. Images of Kofe recording a speech to the United Nations COP26 climate summit standing knee-deep in the sea have been widely shared on social media over recent days, pleasing the tiny island nation which is pushing for aggressive action to limit the impact of climate change. [...]
"We didn't think it would go viral as we saw over the last few days. We have been very pleased with that and hopefully that carries the message and emphasises the challenges that we are facing in Tuvalu at the moment," Kofe said. Tuvalu is an island with a population of around 11,000 people and its highest point is just 4.5m (15 ft) above sea level. Since 1993, sea levels have risen about 0.5cm (0.2 inches) per year, according to a 2011 Australian government report.
"We didn't think it would go viral as we saw over the last few days. We have been very pleased with that and hopefully that carries the message and emphasises the challenges that we are facing in Tuvalu at the moment," Kofe said. Tuvalu is an island with a population of around 11,000 people and its highest point is just 4.5m (15 ft) above sea level. Since 1993, sea levels have risen about 0.5cm (0.2 inches) per year, according to a 2011 Australian government report.
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Haha yeah that was my first thought too. I assume they are thinking sea level raise is going to accelerate but yeah they have Vatican level of future planning.
Re:Long-term thinking (Score:5, Informative)
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/may/16/one-day-disappear-tuvalu-sinking-islands-rising-seas-climate-change
Re:Long-term thinking (Score:5, Informative)
Tuvalu is in big trouble. Fortunately there are only 10,000 of them, so New Zealand will probably wind up accepting them all as climate refugees, because it is quite clear that the world is not serious about climate change and won't really do much to help.
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The highest points are sandy dunes as well, already overtopped in cyclones, rather than strong rock that takes time to erode. It's not that the islands would be submerged, they would wash away.
As long as *something* over over the sea they should retain nationhood surely?
So presuming they're on a deep sea mount of some sort with reef to sea level, they could install some high concrete structure that should remain over sea level at all times despite sea level rise, and that should be enough. I see the main is
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900 years ago (Score:2)
Was the year 1121. Did anyone imagine or could even speculate what society would be like now, or have any idea what would take place around the world scince then, or which countries would be around, and how borders would be drawn up and changed over that period of time?
The legal documents in question will most likely be a minor historical curiosity and nothing more.
Two words (Score:5, Funny)
Sea mines. Just ring your territorial waters with sea mines, sort of like a wall. That will set your boundaries.
The only downside is they will need to keep replacing the mines when Chinese ships keep violating their territorial waters.
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Three words: Double Decker Island
[ Recently re-watched The Lego Movie ... :-) ]
Re:Two words-alarmism failure (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course, if ocean acidification gets bad enough, coral won't be able to form any more. The timeline on that might be longer, but it still could be a concern.
Re:Two words-alarmism failure (Score:5, Informative)
I think you're suffering from a comprehension failure of what they mean by acidification. It just means movement in the direction towards acid, not necessarily become acid. It's like the term red-shift. It does not mean that all light turns red, it just means that the spectrum shifts towards red from the point of view of the parts of the visible spectrum that aren't red. Infrared actually shifts away from red during red-shift and reds can become less red, but we still call it red shift. In other words, they just mean that the ph goes down. It definitely does not have to go down far enough to become actual acid for many shellfish, including many types of coral to not be able to form shells any more.
Also, I completely ignored the affect of warming on coral. That could stunt growth more than acidification. It's likely to adapt, eventually, but that would probably take long enough that any island-maintaining effect of coral growth will be mitigated.
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It's fine. I know what you meant.
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Hah! Looks like someone applied a troll mod to my above comment. I'm curious whose definition of "troll" includes completely ontopic posts about whether or not coral growth will counteract sea level rise for an atoll. I mean, seriously, there are other downvotes. "Overrated", for example. So what were they trying to achieve with "Troll" I really wish people wouldn't abuse the moderation system.
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Heh. The post complaining about moderation abuse also gets modded down. Redundant this time. Also a nonsensical mod. How is it redundant when it's the first time I've complained about it in the thread? Seriously, what's wrong with off topic?
Sounds Reasonable (Score:2)
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Handy to know as your whole Island disappears below the waves,
"Guys, guys! It's not really sinking. Aren't you relieved?"
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Dead volcanic sea mounts do actually sink. The old volcanic mount can be very deep underwater (as the rock cools it shrinks, as it moves away from the area that it formed in, it sinks, it's the reef that formed on top that is the current island. You can follow the hawaiian island change north west and see all the old submerged islands that were the original hawaiian islands. At some point on these islands the reefs stopped forming, and now they're km deep.
Using the word 'sink' doesn't mean the person thinks
Re: islands sink, it's not climate change (Score:1)
A neat trick (Score:3)
Over four decades, there was a net increase in land area in Tuvalu of 73.5 ha (2.9%), although the changes were not uniform, with 74% of land increasing in size and 27% of land decreasing in size.
So, the islands are disappearing while getting bigger. A neat trick.
Settle (Score:1)
This problem precedes any GW issues as island and delta land slowly compresses. You have to be careful if it is GW or not.
In any case, the problem existed long before. Pile up some dirt to keep it above water. You cannot create a new island this way (and get exclusive fishing or military rights) but I can't believe you can't preserve land this way.
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Man who walked up a hill (Score:3)
The precedent set would be disastrous around the world. For instance, in my state in the US the beaches are sacred and public. Unlike the west coast, there is no workaround or loop holes. That is until the conservatives used erosion as a means of gutting this sacred trust.
They can certainly reinforce and build up their island. For some nations,the continental self provides a more permanent boundary of national authority. But to be an absentee landlord? That make no sense.
Re: Man who walked up a hill (Score:2)
"But to be an absentee landlord? "
To be able to claim "we are still a country, honest!" and to profit off of being a gatekeeper to those waters.
This is akin to claiming a piece of the ocean and charging ships a toll for going through it which AFAIK is not permitted by international agreements.
Only 15 feet? (Score:2)
I had no idea the island was so close to sea level already....
Forget climate change. They're in danger of flooding if someone decides to dig out a hole to put a basement in on some new property! :)
Re:Only 15 feet? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Basement flooding" isn't some odd, weird thing that only happens due to "global warming", or even a "high water table". It's a fact of life just about EVERYWHERE, even (if not ESPECIALLY) in mountainous areas. You plan for it, mitigate it, and insure against the inevitable event that's statistically supposed to happen only once in 500 years.
It's like, people think, "you can't have a basement in Florida". Actually... you can. It's just that it makes almost no economic sense unless you're trying to build the biggest possible house on a lot that's constrained by a height limit and maximum floor space limit that doesn't count "basement" space against it.
"Up north", your house's foundation MUST sit on land that's guaranteed to never freeze. That means you have to dig a 2-6 foot deep hole whether you want a basement or not, so the marginal cost of turning it into damp, shitty space that's good enough for anything you could plausibly store or do in the garage is fairly cheap compared to the amount of useful space you'd gain by doing it.
In South Florida, there's no need to dig a hole for the foundation, so every foot of a hole you dig for a basement is a foot you're digging JUST for that basement. However, there's a bigger problem. In most parts of South Florida, there's only a few INCHES of soil before you hit solid limestone bedrock... so NOW you're into jackhammer/blasting territory, and it's even MORE expensive to do.
Oh... there's plenty of water underground in Florida, too... but compared to the "no hole otherwise required for the foundation" and "limestone bedrock" problems, it's almost an afterthought.
For what it's worth, there's a building in downtown Miami under construction RIGHT NOW that's going to have an underground parking garage that's ~50 feet deep. Even 20-30 years ago, there were buildings in Coconut Grove (including Mayfair, Cocowalk, and the Ritz Carlton) that had garages that went 20-30 feet underground.
Miami's irony is, the first neighborhood that became dense and rich enough to justify underground parking garages (Coconut Grove) also happens to be just about the worst and most expensive place in Miami to BUILD one, because the bedrock isn't just "porous", it has literal VOIDS, and Biscayne Bay is literally tens to hundreds of feet away. Water doesn't "seep" through the rock, it shoots through holes like nozzles on a fountain. The Ritz Carlton's garage, in particular, was notoriously hard to build. The builder learned from the experience, and went on to build more and more deep underground garages around Miami.
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That's interesting about the situation in Miami and all of that.
But I was honestly just trying to make a joke that I guess wasn't so clear... Was picturing someone putting a hole in the island and water pouring in and flooding the entire island. :)
I mean, when you're talking only a few feet above sea level in some parts, presumably (if the HIGHEST point is only 15 feet above it) ... it seems like digging down far enough to simply put a hole in the land mass is potentially possible.
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That's interesting about the situation in Miami and all of that.
But I was honestly just trying to make a joke that I guess wasn't so clear... Was picturing someone putting a hole in the island and water pouring in and flooding the entire island. :)
I mean, when you're talking only a few feet above sea level in some parts, presumably (if the HIGHEST point is only 15 feet above it) ... it seems like digging down far enough to simply put a hole in the land mass is potentially possible.
Is that you, Hank? https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com] ("Guam ... will tip over and capsize.")
Greenland (Score:2)
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I nominate Surtsey. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Seasteading (Score:2)
The answer already exists. Unfortunately the statists and allied conservatives do not like this kind of thing. So sorry, Tuvalu, nice knowing you.
Seasteading where they prepare the legal first (Score:2)
What they need to do is to press the UN, early, to get them a resolution allowing that, in partial, inadequate compensation for the grievous injury they will be suffering at the hands of the global warming responsible nations.
Seawater-cooled data-warehouses. (Score:2)
People could live on top of those.
I have an idea for a new anthem (Score:3)
They might have to clear a few rights, though [youtube.com].
Nice PR move (Score:1)
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It is an atoll - a ring of corals that got some land on top. The center could be a nice anchoring place (see Wake island).
Psst.. It's not sinking, it's growing. (Score:2)
Kevin Costner for President of Tuvalu (Score:5, Insightful)
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What about Andrew Ryan?
They can use the Chinese model (Score:3)
Just have Chinese ships dredge the ocean floor and pile sand up on the vanishing Islands to create more real estate.
They may want to be paid with permanent SAM site installations even though they have only the most peaceful of intentions.
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"...a Chinese ploy" may be too simplistic. Let's just call them fellow mariners.
Forthcoming headlines... (Score:2)
Tonga is looking for a legal way to remain a state also after having been milled into small pieces by subduction [wikipedia.org].
General attorney miserably failed to find a legal way for Atlantis to remain a state after big flooding.
Huh? (Score:2)
One third of the Netherlands would be underwater if there werenâ(TM)t dikes. Why canâ(TM)t Tuvalu do the same, I mean China built big ass islands in the middle of the ocean .. surely Tuvalu would have to do less. They ought to take a land reclamation course on Coursera. The whole point of a country is sovereignty over your living area. Otherwise you are subject to anotherâ(TM)s law.
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I'm guessing it's a lot harder to do this in the middle of the deep ocean on an island atoll than it is in shallow continental seas.
There will be some materials of course within the atoll, but possibly not a significant amount.
The headlines are misleading (Score:3)
This whole narrative is stupid. Tuvalu isn't going to "drown", and there isn't going to be any forced-migration of its population to another country.
What's REALLY going to happen in Tuvalu: Florida-style dredge and fill land reclamation. Step 1: bulldoze an area, and bring in a dragline (basically, a big mechanical shovel on a mobile crane). Step 2: Rotate offshore, scoop up rock and soil from the adjacent sandbar, rotate onshore, dump it. Repeat a few times, forming an arc of dirt mounds. Back up a few feet, and do it all over again. Repeat for a few months until done. Step 3 (optional): build a concrete seawall. Step 4: Use a bulldozer to grade the mounds created by step 2 up against the new seawall, creating nice, new high & dry land to build on that's protected from erosion, and gently slopes to drain stormwater into the ocean.
Tuvalu's OTHER problem is protecting their Pacific-Ocean EEZ claims. That's cheap and easy to do, too. Find the outer points of the islands that define the EEZ, and build a bunch of small concrete towers that are 30-50 feet tall and filled with dirt. Call the towers "sea walls", and the territory problem is legally solved. The law says it has to be sovereign dry land, and that you can't create it de novo where there's presently only water, but the law says NOTHING about how big the dry land has to be, or that you have to preserve an area as big as the present-day dry land in perpetuity. Even a fairly BIG ring of islands would probably require only 3 or 4 such "seawall towers" to secure Tuvalu's land and EEZ claims for centuries to come, even if the remainder of those uninhabited islands become completely submerged. Someday, if Tuvalu decides it needs more dry land on those tower-islands to build something, it can dredge & fill new dry land around the towers to raise the now-submerged portion(s) to make them high and dry again.
Seriously, though. When Tuvalu officials go to foreign conferences and give speeches like this, they know it's pure bullshit. They're only doing it because some foreign environmental group is forking out thousands of dollars to send them (and almost certainly their family) on an all-expense paid free vacation in exchange for them humoring the group and cosplaying "future climate refugee".
It worked for Atlantis (Score:2)
It's not the land... (Score:1)
Their biggest concern isn't in having livable land; it's keeping the rights to that lucrative .tv TLD!