EPA Issues New Rule To Curb Tailpipe Pollution, Fight Climate Change (theverge.com) 223
The Environmental Protection Agency issued a new rule today aimed at reducing tailpipe pollution from cars and light-duty trucks -- an effort by President Joe Biden to return to the fuel economy standards put in place by Barack Obama nearly a decade ago. From a report: Under the rule, passenger vehicles would be required to achieve an average of 55 miles of travel per gallon of gasoline (mpg) by 2026 -- slightly over Obama's goal of 54 mpg, but a major increase over the 38-mpg rule put in place by President Donald Trump. The EPA estimates the new standard would prevent the release of 3.1 billion tons of carbon dioxide through 2050 and will save car owners $420 billion in fuel costs. EPA Administrator Michael Regan called it "the most ambitious vehicle pollution standards for greenhouse gases ever established," adding, "The standards are achievable, affordable, and will deliver a significant pollution reduction." The new fuel economy standards are the latest effort by the Biden Administration to reduce air pollution in the broader fight against climate change. Earlier this month, Biden signed an executive order directing the federal government to spend billions of dollars to purchase electric vehicles, upgrade federal buildings, and leverage the power of the government to shift to cleaner forms of electricity.
There is a Santa! (Score:4, Funny)
Yay! An adult is in charge again. Under Don, anything that hurt big biz profits in the short term was "fake, rigged, or bugged".
Re:There is a Santa! (Score:4, Insightful)
Is a fleet average of 55 MPG even achievable by 2026? The only cars that can meet that standard now are full electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids. Even mid size hybrids would struggle to meet that MPG target, let alone non-hybrid vehicles.
This really feels like greenwashing to me... grandiose statements that have no basis in reality.
Re:There is a Santa! (Score:4, Insightful)
The only cars that can meet that standard now are full electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids.
BEVs and PHEVs it is, then!
Re:There is a Santa! (Score:5, Insightful)
Is a fleet average of 55 MPG even achievable by 2026?
It's less efficient than my girlfriend's all gasoline car. Maybe in America where every car needs to be able to fit a normal European car on the back seat you may struggle to achieve it, but really it's not the size that matters.
grandiose statements that have no basis in reality.
Reality is that America has a sick fetish for oversized monster trucks, and no doubt there will be string of replies to this comment claiming safety or some other reason why those insane oversized tanks American cars are "necessary" for picking up groceries or dropping the kids to school.
Re: There is a Santa! (Score:2)
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Is that UK or US MPG? They aren't the same thing, as the UK gallon is bigger. Subtract 20% from a UK MPG figure to get the US equivalent.
Re: There is a Santa! (Score:2)
Re: There is a Santa! (Score:2)
No, they planned for Obama's replacement to revise the CAFE standard down, and he did. Now they just need to get Biden's replacement in 2024 to do it again.
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And if Obama's successor wouldn't have revised it, they would have just stopped selling cars then due to a lack of having a "Plan B" when "Plan A" is in no way a guarantee?
What an unbelievably asinine statement that shows a total incomprehension of how to run a business.
They very likely have designs that would achieve this, but haven't put them to production because of costs and insufficient demand for increased fuel economy. Sure, everyone likes spending less money on fuel, but not usually at the expense
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Is a fleet average of 55 MPG even achievable by 2026?
Yes. The 55 MPG is the AVERAGE. Not every car needs to get that mileage.
The only cars that can meet that standard now are full electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids.
That is how you do it. If half the cars sold in 2026 are EVs, that lowers the average enough to still make some gas guzzlers for the Slashdotters who will absolutely positively DIE if they have to stop for more than five minutes in the middle of an eight-hour road trip.
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Have you heard there is a new version of the Viper coming back?!?!
Oh man, I've always wanted one of those....I test drove one of the old ones once and WOW...talk about fun when you just even touched the gas pedal!!!
Re:There is a Santa! (Score:4, Insightful)
If you make the goal too high, it increases the cost of new cars. If the cost increases enough, fewer new cars replace existing cars. The net result is the in service fleet average emissions remain higher than if there's more turn over with a more reasonable reduction. Pulling a mpg number out of your arse to make a political statement does not automatically improve things. It can make things worse than a more pragmatic number. But it does make you a hero to your political base. That is what matters after all...
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If you make the goal too high, it increases the cost of new cars. If the cost increases enough, fewer new cars replace existing cars.
Or people just buy cheaper new cars. The average new car cost isn't determined by a basic need for the car but rather by the budget available to spend. Maybe you'll be settling for something smaller and more compact rather than F150s.
Re: There is a Santa! (Score:2)
Fewer new cars will be sold, old cars will stay on the road longer, and Union auto workers will be laid off.
Re:There is a Santa! (Score:4, Insightful)
If the tailpipe emissions were taxes commensurately to their effects, we would see some amazing technology come out of the internal combustion engineering industry as the costs would be aligned. Currently, those costs are not aligned.
As a business owner, I can make more money knowing what my regulatory runway looks like. When I get jerked backward and forward with requirement floors, it does not help my bottom line.
Re: There is a Santa! (Score:3)
This is why car manufacturers are switching to EVs (Score:3, Insightful)
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Ridiculous and unreachable pie-in-the-sky mandates from people in Washington who do not understand the trade-offs and engineering involved to comply with their fantasy numbers... [epi.org]
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Plus it's not going to save consumers any money even if it's achievable. You see, the government thought process goes like this: "Oh, shit. Cars are using 33% less gasoline and we've lost that tax revenue? Well, we can't have a shortfall. Increase the taxes so that we continue to get the money we used to.
But don't take my word for it. [ncsl.org]
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Plus it's not going to save consumers any money even if it's achievable.
Usually an implied fuel savings assumes the vehicle purchase price is a sunk cost. I can go on Tesla's web page right now and see some big imaginary number indicating how much money I'd ostensibly "save" by buying one of their cars, except for the pesky little fact that my present economy car will likely be completely worn out before it ever consumers enough gasoline to equal the purchase price of a Tesla.
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Precisely. I have a perfectly good 96 Honda Civic, with a manual transmission, that I plan on driving forever.
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You aren't making the right comparison, and actually are constructing a straw man.
Tesla isn't saying that the purchase of a new EV will be completely offset by fuel and maintenance savings - that would be ridiculous. They are making a basic and reasonable assumption that because you're there on the website of a car manufacturer looking at their car, that you're in the market for a new car. And, with that assumption in mind, they're showing that the fuel and maintenance savings from buying an EV will show
Re:This is why car manufacturers are switching to (Score:4, Informative)
They are, in effect, legislating the internal combustion engine out of existence.
Some recent hybrids get mileage matching/exceeding the 55mpg standard, others are very close. So, not "fantasy numbers". It would seem this is intended to incentivize an increased shift to those types of vehicles.
Fuel Economy of New Hybrid Vehicles [fueleconomy.gov]
Re: This is why car manufacturers are switching to (Score:2)
How are sales of those hybrids? Does demand outstrip production, driving prices up, or are dealers discounting them to move them off the lot?
A green (plug-in or hybrid) Trabat is not the American dream.
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I love my Honda Insight 2019. I did get the touring edition so it's super comfy with lots of bells and whistles. In San Diego summers without running the AC I get average 55mpg. In winter with minimal heater use I'm getting closer to 47mpg. I also drive 66-68ish most of the time so I'm not in a hurry to get anyway.
We'll see how things go over the years, but these first 2.5 have been great.
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You say that like it's a bad thing; but it's probably not true. Research is improving mileage because other big nations want such even if USA doesn't. US manufacturers better keep trying if they want to keep up with the international Joneses. Manufacturers have always claimed doomsday under new restrictions, and have usually been wrong. "Wolf!"
Further, another way to meet mileage guidelines is to make smaller cars. Thus, even i
They fully understand the trade offs (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone's focused on climate change and ignoring the elephant in the room that is the health impacts of breathing all that smog. Competent politicians don't ignore that as it has a huge negative impact on our economy for a wide variety of reasons.
Legislating coal power out of existence (Score:3)
They are, in effect, legislating the internal combustion engine out of existence.
Very similar to Barack Obama's desire to legislate coal power out of existence. Recall that he said,
"If somebody wants to build a coal-fired power plant, they can. It's just that it will bankrupt them... Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket."
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Even accounting for the difference in gallon sizes, UK vehicles have no problem exceeding the supposedly "ridiculous and unreachable pie-in-the-sky mandate."
http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/... [fuel-economy.co.uk]
Of course they aren't pushing high profit margin SUVs and trucks the way American auto sellers do. Smaller cars are (get ready to clutch your pearls) ... accepted there because 99.99% of the time, you don't need a truck and you can hire one for the 0.01% of the time when you do far cheaper than you can buy one and maint
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Most Americans actually are in favor of government policy that reduces air pollution.
Yeah, but that same group are the "not in my back yard" group, as in "Oh, you mean get rid of ICE? Fuck no! I like my V8."
Also, you're never going to outlaw ICE cars. You may be able to force manufacturers to stop manufacturing them (in some countries), but they'll exist, and their value will probably go up as a result.
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As for outlawing ICE, we already require annual inspections.
Don't know where you live, but I live 60 miles outside downtown Chicago and I don't have ANY inspections.
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Registration? He probably doesn't have insurance either. You know how much money you can save not having to pay for all those things?! Then, if you drive a beater, who cares you just run away from the scene of the crash. Nothing ties the car to you.
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Yes of course they do because when you ask the question that way - Who is going say "No way man I want more air pollution!"
Now ask it a different way - 'Do you want to pay up 10K more up front for a new car so you can support a macro policy which may or may not impact air quality and probably not be able to recoupe the cost in fuel savings over a decade of ownership?"
I think you will get a different answer. However this is par for the course the entire liberal playbook is dupe people into acting against the
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Right now the EV models of some cars are about $6k more than the fossil versions. The price difference is falling fast.
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And considering that my wife was saving $200 a month not buying fuel for her old car and our electric bill only went up by $50/month after we got a Model 3, that price difference crosses into savings in year 4 on the operational cost alone. Savings on regular maintenance that doesn't need to be done only accelerates that - no oil changes, no transmission service (depending on the design of the EV), far less brake service, etc.
Even with some states adding a registration surcharge for EVs to pay for road mai
My car ... (Score:5, Funny)
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There's a big crack in the exhaust header upstream of the catalytic converter.
Which means you're not only polluting more, but also needlessly using even more fuel due to the exhaust leak(s).
When does show up (Score:2)
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Especially soothing if it's piping the exhaust out before the catalytic converter.
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Then it's going to take a while for the catalytic converter to warm up
Maybe. But some meth addict has it, so it's difficult to tell. The straight pipe I put in warms up a bit.
Great if you hate poor people (Score:3, Insightful)
Any such restrictions are going to ensure that many, many poor people will never be able to afford a car and will be at the mercy of government transportation.
All while doing just about nothing in the grand scheme of things to reduce CO2 emissions in any measurable way.
I guess I'm fine with it since I'll still be able to afford cars after all this is done. I just feel like we should at least acknowledge the severe level of shit we are heaping on the poor with all these regulations, just so we can feel better while doing nothing of substance.
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Any such restrictions are going to ensure that many, many poor people will never be able to afford a car and will be at the mercy of government transportation.
Ok, I'll admit some public transportation could use upgrades, both in actual service and customer experience, but overall I don't see a push toward public transit as a negative (and hopefully higher use would drive for more improvements and better infrastructure).
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Public transportation is nothing but a meeting place for addicts and a toilet for the homeless.
As an example say I want to go from St Pete Beach to Clearwater, our county seat. Perhaps I need to go to court or pay taxes.
I walk 8 blocks from my house to a bus stop. I take the bus to downtown St Pete (7.5 Miles, or 70 minutes) , to transfer to the north county bus to Clearwater. I have to wait for 30 min at the transfer station (where I'm harassed by the homeless, propositioned to buy "Spice" and other dru
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Yes, buses suck in most places.
We could either make them not suck or you could take a bike. A reasonably fit person can sustain 15 mph for a long time. So you could get there in 80 minutes, with no emissions and no cost, plus get exercise.
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An fuck those people who aren't able to ride a bike? They deserve to die, right?
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Where does he store the bike upon arrival at his destination? Most places have practically no secure spot for a bicycle and those that do still expect you to have your own lock. Anything less then one of those metal bar U locks will just get cut with bolt cutters.
Also, what is he going to smell like when he arrives at his destination? Does it have a shower? Let's not even get started on how unsafe cycling is in most cities. Almost any kind of bicycle accident is going to hurt you more then most kinds of car
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A push towards public transport is a fine concept, if they also push towards making public transport usable. In my area, public transport is sort of there, but it's really difficult to plan any sort of activity around them as you never really know for sure when the busses are gonna arrive outside of strict commute times in the morning and evening. Maybe if we had coordinators with a modicum of ability to plan routes and schedules it'd be better, but there doesn't seem to be any move towards that anytime s
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After Covid you don't see a push towards more public transit as a negative?
Admittedly, that is an exceptional, and hopefully temporary, exception to that general idea.
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Any such restrictions are going to ensure that many, many poor people will never be able to afford a new car
I fixed that for you. The overpriced hybrids and EVs will still depreciate just like cars always have, and eventually trickle down to society's dregs. My prediction is poor people driving around in Nissan Leafs? Leaves? Leaii? with nearly-shot batteries and a Harbor Freight generator in tow.
Seriously though, I've watched a few YouTube videos where someone bought a used hybrid with a depleted traction battery, and for the most part the car still works (just not efficiently). We're not really into SHTF for
It depends on how you approach it (Score:4, Insightful)
If Biden wasn't doing anything for poor people you'd have a point, but he's got trillions of dollars of government spending targeted directly to the bottom 70% (the number of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, or what I would consider poor). Including direct Cash subsidies that were passing off as child tax credits.
Could he do more? Sure, there's quite a bit of student loan debt he has the power to discharge. Though to be fair if you tried to discharge all of it you probably face a legal challenge that he lose in our current Supreme Court thanks to the people who have been recently seated.
But it's not fair to say we don't know what to do to address the problems you're raising, the only issue is are we as a nation going to do it? Because if we're not either way the poor are screwed. How do they die in their 50s of lung cancer and we slightly reduced the cost of used cars or we do stuff like this and then have additional programs to pick up the slack we're creating.
The same thing happened with the projects back when we build all that government housing. We built the housing and we brought the people and then a right-wing government got in control and pulled the funding on the social programs meant to deal with the problems created by bringing all those people into the government housing. It remains to be seen if we're going to make the same mistake again and again. What's the definition of insanity again?
No that's not what child tax credits do (Score:2)
I'm not going to debate the Great society with you. Just to say that you know not what you speak of. Also you should pay attention to the phrases you're using. You're touchin
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If Nixon hadn't been rather unfairly tarred with responsibility for the Watergate
Wut
He's trolling (Score:2)
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They're not necessarily going to make the cheapest new cars more expensive - low-end EVs already exist and their prices could be lowered by improving economies of scale through...incentivizing EV production. New economy cars also exist and get good enough MPG that they won't pose a danger to fleet averages. And new car prices have rather limited influence on used car prices in the first place - the only poor people who buy new cars are cartoonishly irresponsible lunatics and those desperate enough to prefer
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Any such restrictions are going to ensure that many, many poor people will never be able to afford a car and will be at the mercy of government transportation.
You're overplaying it. Here are some cars available today getting over 50 MPG:
2021 Toyota Corolla Hybrid - $23,600
2021 Honda Insight - $23,100
2021 Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid - $23,400
The hybrid versions run about $3k more than conventional ICE counterparts, and you'll make that back several times over in fuel savings. These are already the lowest-TCO cars you can buy.
So this isn't going to hurt the low end market very much. In fact, manufacturers are going to have a strong incentive to create more affordable h
Automotive gentrification in progress (Score:2)
Poor people don't make laws.
Poor people aren't politically active.
Poor people are ripe for legislative predation because they're less intelligent than the successful (exceptions prove the rule, intelligence distribution is not fair nor a matter of personal choice so be happy if you won the genetic lottery).
Poor people rely on used vehicles and affordable used vehicles are increasingly difficult to buy.
Poor people are usually tech-helpless so their repair costs are punitive.
As a mechanic I'll always have a r
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Get out of here with this concern trolling.
Poor people aren't buying new cars and never have. This isn't going to increase the prices regardless, if anything this might get them to sell small cars with small engines again. The best selling vehicle is the Ford F-150 so there's plenty of room to improve efficiency.
Time to tap into the exhaust heat (Score:2)
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BMW did try this [wikipedia.org]
This is not a foreign concept, but it is apparently not quite as simple as one may think it is.
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That's because it's a HEAT ENGINE. It gets its power from dropping heat across a temperature difference and throwing it away. Getting about a third of the fuel's energy out as work at the temperatures the fuel can be burned in a portable box vs. the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere is really pretty efficient.
If you could do substantially better you'd be breaking the first law of thermodynamics. So you could hook the engine to a refri
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That's because it's a HEAT ENGINE. It gets its power from dropping heat across a temperature difference and throwing it away.
Wait, what? The ICE does not work like that. It has nothing to do with temperature difference and everything to do with expansion. The force comes from the expansion of the lit fuel. The workings of ICE have NOTHING to do with the temperature of the surrounding atmosphere.
And nobody is talking about breaking the laws of thermodynamics. We're just talking about repurposing the heat generated because of the combustion.
Courts should stop this (Score:3, Insightful)
The US Constitution gives law making authority to Congress. The Constitution does not permit Congress to delegate that authority to Executive branch agencies.
The EPA should create a bill that the elected in Congress have to vote on. This is exactly what Congress was elected to do. It's also what Congress fears. They don't want a voting record that can be used to hold them accountable at reelection time.
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Congress did not delegate the law making authority. The law is in the hands of congress, the only delegation was the standards which apply. The law itself is very much solely in the hands of congress and doesn't list any specific emission targets.
Congress can at any point decide to change the law which says follow the standards set by the EPA. Call your elected official if you're worried that they are taking those precious tailpipe emissions away from you.
Re: Courts should stop this (Score:2)
A couple of things (Score:2)
2) How do the numbers line up at intermittent estimates (say if we take 50% of cars on the road and adjust the lower half of MPG)?
-At regular gas, the MPG for my wallet has a huge difference between 22 and 24mpg, less so after that.
3) No more diesel exclusions -- contractors use cheap fuel from job sites for their trucks . . . it's an absolute epidemic in Connecticut where they got rid of commer
Tax on the middle class and the poor, sheesh... (Score:2)
You do realize that politicians and the wealthy will continue to drive their luxury big gas guzzling SUVs.... And before you go "electric" on me, do we have the infrastructure and "the means" in place to deploy this effectively? Short answer, no. And it will cost the middle class and the poor a fortune. Just because there are few Teslas on the road today doesn't mean we can go "all Tesla" without some pretty major issues. How long before people die (f
Reframe the proposition... (Score:2)
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What's not to like about driving cars that are cheaper to run & don't need filling up as often?
If you think of a car just as an appliance, nothing.
ob (Score:2)
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[Citation Needed] (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a severe lack of citations in your post.
Source (Score:5, Informative)
The source of those numbers is the NHTSA, and Keith Hennessey explained them in detail here:
http://keithhennessey.com/2009... [keithhennessey.com]
It's got nothing to do with the climate (Score:2)
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But the old performance cars are MUCH more fun to drive.
I miss my '86 911 Turbo that I lost in Katrina.
That thing got about 10 mpg most of the time when driving it a bit hard, but OH....it was more than worth the money spent.
Before they make gas too expensive, I sti
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Ever go outside a city and look down on it? Smog. Lots and lots of smog.
Smog is a result of partially combusted fuel byproducts and NOx making it past the catalytic converter. That is caused by malfunctioning emissions controls, generally because people who can't afford to repair that shit, don't.
I guess slowly pricing poor people out of owning cars kind of solves that problem, but I don't think you'll be happy with the resulting society when the kid that flips your burger or stocks your shelves can't get to work.
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That is caused by malfunctioning emissions controls, generally because people who can't afford to repair that shit, don't.
In California we solved this problem with mandatory smog checks. If you can't pass the smog check, you can't drive it.
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Ever go outside a city and look down on it? Smog. Lots and lots of smog.
Smog is caused by old cars with bad emissions control. By making new cars more expensive, the EPA's new standards may lead to people keeping their old cars longer and making smog worse.
There are solutions, such as raising emission standards to force these old cars off the road, or "cash for clunkers" to incentivize people to upgrade to EVs.
Re: It's got nothing to do with the climate (Score:2)
You are arguing WHY you want the new CAFE standard, the question is how to get there in a few years?
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No attribution so I have no reason to believe you.
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I had a 3 cylinder manual transmission geo metro in the 90s that got 60mpg, and I had no problem out-accelerating everyone else. At 70 mph it shook like crazy though, like the space shuttle during reentry.
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How does that do pulling a trailer?
How often do you pull a trailer?
You should buy a car for how you drive 99% of the time and rent for the rare exceptions.
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The working men and women that everybody depends on use a truck every single day.
It's a huge percentage of the workforce and an even larger percentage of the lower class.
But half of Americans can't afford a new car anymore anyway, so screw them.
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Wow...where do ya'll live where you have to spend so much time on crowded freeways to and from work?
I mean, I know it happens in LA and in the big cities on the NE, but not so much for the rest of us in the US.
And as far as trucks or other vehicles to tow things....we use them a LOT here in Louisiana, you often want to drop your boat in on the weekends to go fishing, or hitch a trailer to haul stuff here or there, I like to be able to load up about
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My mom owned a chevy sprint ( manual transmission ) in the 90s.
My understanding is that the sprint and the metro were basically the same car.
If so, you didnt out-accelerate too many people.
It felt pretty peppy, to be sure, but it wasnt any rocketship.
Re: More stagnation (Score:2)
Re: More stagnation (Score:2)
Rodney King could do amazing things with his little eco box back in the day...
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The Geo Metro was a 1500 pound deathtrap. I would never put my family in one, and for me I'll take a motorcycle because at least I have a chance of jumping clear of an impending crash.
I saw a couple airlifted away from their Honda Civic that had been violently rear-ended by a truck. Their dead children were still pinned in the back seats. The police and paramedics were in tears. I was on the other side of the highway and I wish I could un-see that.
My kids ride around in a Suburban that's 6000 pounds of
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Wait, I remember driving those little Geo Metros. There's no way you were "out-accelerating everybody else".
Let's to a little fact checking... They have a 0-60 time of just over 14 seconds. Your typical mid-range sedan of the time was doing it in around 8 seconds.
Well, at least the 60mpg is really good! Hang on, the EPA mileage ratings is 40mpg, and real world reporting from fuelly bears that out.
So, what kind of magical Geo Metro were you driving??
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You do know that EVs get well over 50MPGe and some of the more popular models have acceleration that will make a mockery of just about anything ICE-powered, right?
Re: More stagnation (Score:2)
So, are you suggesting that automakers simply cut all new vehicle production over to EV in 4 years? That'll take a lot of batteries, which means a lot of rare earth minerals - too bad we have to buy them from China...
Or should we simply force every ICE vehicle purchaser to also buy an EV to offset the mileage requirement?
It's an asinine, arbitrary target, which Biden's Republican successor will strike down upon taking office in 2024.
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"By MY 2026, EPA projects that the final standards can be met with sales of about 17 percent electric vehicles (EVs), and wider uptake of advanced gasoline engine and vehicle technologies available today."
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleas... [epa.gov]
17% doesn't sound terribly ambitious. Even back here in 2021:
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Switching at least the majority of new vehicle production to EVs in 4 years isn't a bad idea or unrealistic, and considering that we're already knee-deep in global warming there's nothing arbitrary about doing it as soon as possible. Rare earth minerals are produced outside of China - to a greater degree than semiconductor components in fact. Funny that I don't hear anyone arguing for going back to carbs and points ignition over that.
The US will probably be led by a fascist in 2024 who will strike down the
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Pretty sure these are fleet averages, which include electric vehicles. (Which almost always accelerate faster than comparable gas vehicles by the way).
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You know what? EVs will be quicker, which might be the point, many are quicker right now. My hybrid is plenty quick for day to day driving - if you want to race from light to light, well, you can buy an old muscle car. Or better yet be safer to the public and go to a track. Life is not a race and you shouldn't be playing Mr. Racecar on public roads. It is a shame your state doesn't care if the roads are safe.
-Get off my lawn
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Errr. . .the big auto manufacturers are going electric. So how is this an impossible task?
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Errr. . .the big auto manufacturers are going electric. So how is this an impossible task?
And since it is about fleet averages, making the smallest cars zero emissions should not have too much effect on the light trucks and SUVs that people want.