Amazon Rows Back on Threat To Stop Accepting UK-issued Visa Cards 50
Amazon appears to have rowed back from a public threat to end support for Visa payments in the UK in a dispute over payment fees. From a report: The ecommerce giant sent an email to users of Amazon.co.uk today informing them that the "expected change" -- which was due to take place on January 19 -- will not now take place on that day. Although it is still not clear if the two companies have come to sustained terms on fees. "The expected change regarding the use of Visa credit cards on Amazon.co.uk will no longer take place on January 19. We are working closely with Visa on a potential solution that will enable customers to continue using their Visa credit cards on Amazon.co.uk," Amazon writes in the email sent to UK users. "Should we make any changes related to Visa credit cards, we will give you advance notice," it goes on, adding: "Until then, you can continue to use Visa credit cards, debit cards, Mastercard, American Express, and Eurocard as you do today."
Isn't 'chicken' fun? (Score:3)
The Mastercard / Visa duopoly makes silly amounts of profits. Breaking their stranglehold is highly desirable, and Amazon is probably a big enough gorilla to do it.
It will be interesting to find out who did blink first...
Re: Isn't 'chicken' fun? (Score:2, Interesting)
The EU gave them a huge boost by making it illegal for vendors to add creditcard surcharges.
A lot of expensive dinners and revolving door jobs must have been involved for EU officials to call saddling all non creditcard users with the cost of Creditcards consumer friendly. Fucking corrupt fucking assholes.
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The EU gave them a huge boost by making it illegal for vendors to add creditcard surcharges.
A lot of expensive dinners and revolving door jobs must have been involved for EU officials to call saddling all non creditcard users with the cost of Creditcards consumer friendly. Fucking corrupt fucking assholes.
TBF, the EU also capped what they are allowed to charge as Merchant Service Fees.
Also Visa/MC have been petitioning governments to make surcharges illegal, it's already in their T&C's that you're not allowed to do it which makes it defacto illegal in the US. Except the US Govt hasn't capped the merchant service fee.
You're right that it is a despicable duopoly, unfortunately it's not an easy one to break due to the stranglehold they have over merchants (I.E. they will literally tell you if you star
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You're hilarious, here in USA I click buy and purchase goes on my... wait for it... Amazon Visa card and get lots of spendable reward points too. Visa for the win.
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Visa is a win for individual consumers because the cost is dumped onto other consumers. Collectively, we lose.
I wish Amazon luck in fighting against Visa, but their success is unlikely. The government is, shamefully, on the side of credit card companies. Sears tried and failed with Discover. Regulators in America shut down Walmart's attempt to issue their own credit cards.
Chicken is fun, the weasel words aren't (Score:3, Insightful)
I have no issue with Amazon duking it out with the credit cards over fees. I do have 100% issue with this:
We are working closely with Visa on a potential solution that will enable customers to continue using their Visa credit cards on Amazon.co.uk
No, they are working on better deal to same themselves (and, ok, the end customer possibly too) some money. This is not about "enabling customers to continue to use their credit cards". If they do disallow UK credit cards, it won't be Visa/Mastercard turning it off, it won't be a technical issue. There is no "solution" required because there is no external problem. It is entirely of their own makin
Duopoly preferable to monopoly (Score:3)
Be careful who you root for in this fight. Amazon getting preferential terms from Visa only helps Amazon. It doesn't help their customers and certainly doesn't help other on-line and brick-an-mortar retailers who accept Visa (which are now at an even greater disadvantage compared to Amazon).
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Worth noting that other UK online and brick and mortar retailers don't generally process their payments through Luxembourg as part of their tax strategy - and so will be unaffected by the Visa (and Mastercard) cross-border interchange increase.
Re: Isn't 'chicken' fun? (Score:2)
The Mastercard / Visa duopoly makes silly amounts of profits. Breaking their stranglehold is highly desirable, and Amazon is probably a big enough gorilla to do it.
I don't think you know how this industry works, "chicken" is the only negotiating strategy that works. Splitting them up would make it worse.
It's just like when your cable/sat tv provider says "so and so is being a dickhead and wants to take your XYZ channel away". You don't pay for that channel, your provider does, so you are stuck in the middle of those back and forth games because you didn't put that channel in your package to begin with, you don't pay for it.
Likewise, you're not paying for Visa/MC/Ame
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You have a point except for one issue. SEPA has been a thing for quite a while. You don't actually need a card, you can pay straight with your bank account via one of the countless SEPA instant payment providers.
So if providers start to play chicken with vendors, you just bypass the whole show by paying straight from your bank account.
Re: Isn't 'chicken' fun? (Score:2)
That gives merchants more room at the bargaining table if they can fall back on a widely available, affordable payment method right, but it doesn't these stop games of chicken, probably enables more of it. It should already have a positive effect on European credit card transaction fees where it's available right, it is competitive with other forms of payment? So that's good.
If we're talking about getting rid of "chicken", no amount of weakening credit card companies does that, you have to either make it a
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The problem with making people pay fees for paying is that all forms of payment would require fees. It takes money to handle cash, it takes money to install payment processing hardware and maintain software, etc.
This would rapidly create a myriad of payment systems, each with individual cost at each individual store. Which would create significant friction at the payment point, where people would take time figuring out the cheapest way to pay.
Many business would not be willing to tolerate gaining pennies in
Cashback? (Score:2)
Cashback changes your logic; it provides an incentive for me to use payment card X rather than Y. Specifically I use my Barclaycard while in the UK - 0.5% cashback - and Nationwide Visa when abroad - cheaper exchange rate deal.
There's lots of variations available for this game, so yes, enforced competition might well lead to a wind down of interchange fees; specifically as retailers offer a discount if you use X and not Y ($15 with Visa, $14.50 with Mastercard, $14 with ApplePay or whatever
Re: Cashback? (Score:2)
Cash back rewards are the cardholder's share of the transaction fees. So competitive pressure there puts a bigger share of the transaction fees in the cardholders pocket, from the banks or from the card associations, or wherever it comes from, but doesn't move transaction costs down for merchants. Probably the opposite. If Visa can charge more, there is more to pass on to the cardholder, giving them a bigger advantage over Mastercard, banks more reasons to chose one over the other to offer you, and bette
Amazon's Credit Card is VISA (Score:2)
Ironical, eh?
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In the USA, Amazon's branded credit card is a VISA card.
That is because regulators have made it near impossible for retailers to create independent credit cards. Sears did it with Discover, but that was years ago when MC/Visa didn't have the lobbying power they have today.
So what? (Score:1)
I'm sure no one here is stupid enough to buy things from Amazon.
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I buy stuff from them all the time, often have great deals. I don't question the politics or beliefs or pay scale when I shop at mom and pop stores either. I'm there to buy something, period end of story.
Maybe you're the stupid one.
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I don't question the politics or beliefs or pay scale when I shop at mom and pop stores either. I'm there to buy something, period end of story.
I'm not the OP, but when I'm shopping in a brick and mortar place, I definitely take these things into account. Buyers have the power to choose the shop that isn't run by arseholes. At "mom and pop" stores, you can choose the place where the staff are most helpful, or the place where your friend used to work (if your friend was treated well) or the place that sponsors your local sporting team... you get the point. If I just wanted to "buy something" I would go to the guy in the alley selling dodgy goods out
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I'd like to bring to your attention what this same user wrote just a few hours before [slashdot.org]:
"Weed is grown by cartels that maim and kill, and use distributors that do the same... You are blind to what your filthy habit does, and spew nonsense to justify it."
So, considering the behavior of people you do business with is important. Just not when your name is iggymanz.
Also today, he posted to let you know he doesn't consider purchases under 5 figures to be significant expenses [slashdot.org]. And yet he needs Amazon's "great deals" to save him, I suppose, a couple of dollars on dental floss and batteries.
It could be schizophrenia. Multiple users on the same account. Or some need to defend Appl
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I am buying stuff from Amazon if I cannot find better sources. And I buy books from them.
Not a surprising outcome (Score:5, Interesting)
It wasn't surprising that Visa and Amazon would come to some kind of deal. There were really only three possible outcomes:
Visa won't want (3) to happen and Amazon won't want (2), which leaves only (1).
Personally I don't think there is any "good guy" in this spat. On one side you've got two companies increasing their fees because they can get away with it (thanks Brexit!) and on the other side you have a retailer unhappy because it impacts their tax avoidance strategy.
Re: Not a surprising outcome (Score:1)
My preferred outcome would be that the UK ditches the part of PSD2 which disallows Amazon to add creditcard surcharges. Visa would start offering competetive rates with mastercard instantly.
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Maybe, but in this case both Mastercard and Visa have the same cross border interchange fee (1.15% for debit and 1.5% for credit)
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That's just one of many fees.
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I'm not sure where you work in the payment chain but, assuming you're a merchant, those fees will have likely come from your billing relationship with a merchant acquirer or PSP (rather than Visa/Mastercard).
Credit cards need to die... (Score:4, Informative)
Credit cards are such a part of the landscape that no one ever thinks about them. Actually, they need to die. For people who just want to pay for stuff, there are lots of better alternatives. Getting some sort of bonus points for using a credit card is only possible, because of the rapacious fees they charge retailers. If they charged lower fees, retailers could charge less, and the customers would save even more.
Anecdote: My wife ran a small business with a very loyal customer basis for 20 years. She sold a type of product that happened to hit a "high risk" category for credit cards (alcohol). In 20 years, she never had a single dispute or charge-back, not one. Nonetheless, the credit cards insisted that the business was high risk, and the fees reflected this. Worse, where we are, it was (perhaps still is) legal for the credit cards to prohibit you from offering a discount for using some other method of payment. The customers, of course, never see that side of things - paying x% of your turnover to a payment service for...basically nothing.
For people who use credit cards to buy things they cannot afford: they tempt people to spend beyond their means, and then keep them in a debt trap with usurious interest rates and fees.
Credit cards need to die...
Re: Credit cards need to die... (Score:1)
Creditcard users need to pay for creditcard bennies, then creditcards die.
Creditcards had almost no penetration in the EU because they couldn't fob off the cost on creditcard users, until they blatantly corrupted the EU legislative process. It's funny that that corruption has started failing in the US, yet they recently succeeded in the EU. Puts the supposed ease of corrupting the political process in the US in perspective, especially for laws which have to be bought in each state.
Re: Credit cards need to die... (Score:2)
Fob off the cost on non creditcard users I meant.
Re:Credit cards need to die... (Score:5, Interesting)
In the UK you get additional rights if you buy with a credit card. If the item cost over £100 then it qualifies, even if you only paid £100 on the card and the rest in cash (e.g. you put a deposit for a car on the card, and the rest as a bank transfer). Essentially the bank is considered equally liable as the vendor for the purchase. There have been instances where the vendor went bust but the bank had to give a full refund (it was a car IIRC).
There is also the possibility of doing a chargeback. I had to do one last year because of COVID relation BS and the vendor not acting.
So while I wish the terms for retailers were better, as a consumer I like the protections that credit cards give me. I wouldn't be adverse to them going away, as long as I could get similar protections elsewhere.
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If they charged lower fees, retailers could charge less, and the customers would save even more.
Uh huh. Except they won't, so customers won't save anything. Retailers would just keep prices as-is and enjoy the extra few cents profit per sale.
Credit cards are actually great for consumers (Score:4, Interesting)
Credit carts are actually great for responsible consumers compared to alternatives. If I go to a mom & pop store, I try to use cash (less now after the covid thing, but I digress), but in any case I will never give my debit card to anyone. It is not that hard to steal a credit or debit card details, but in the case of the former no money leaves my account when a fraudulent charge is made and, crucially, my bank has not paid any money, so they have nothing to lose by reversing the transaction. Plus, I do get perks like extra warranty and other kinds of protection, plus, 0.5-5% cash back is not bad.
But I have the balance automatically paid, it is idiotic to use them as loans, their interest rates are often ridiculous.
Depending on the market they might be charging retailers quite a bit - I mean Visa seems to be trying to pull something even on a behemoth like Amazon, imagine what they can do to small clients - but I don't really see any alternatives currently.
Before someone mentions bitcoin, apart from all the other issues, if we are talking about fees specifically, when the network is relatively busy like last year (which is not busy at all compared to a credit card network), fees were over $20 / transaction.
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Credit carts are actually great for responsible consumers compared to alternatives. If I go to a mom & pop store, I try to use cash (less now after the covid thing, but I digress), but in any case I will never give my debit card to anyone. It is not that hard to steal a credit or debit card details, but in the case of the former no money leaves my account when a fraudulent charge is made and, crucially, my bank has not paid any money, so they have nothing to lose by reversing the transaction. Plus, I do get perks like extra warranty and other kinds of protection, plus, 0.5-5% cash back is not bad.
This cannot be overstated. I'm not going to expose my bank account online. I use a credit card for online purchases (and also for physical "contactless" payments) because, in the event of fraud, I'm never out of pocket. And if the merchant doesn't deliver the goods, or they are not fit for purpose, I can simply do a charge-back.
In addition compared to smartphone-based options, the physical card is not subject to malware, and doesn't require an Apple/Google/other online identity to function.
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but in any case I will never give my debit card to anyone. It is not that hard to steal a credit or debit card details
That's a fundamental flaw in your banking system. In Europe you can happily hand out your debit card details to anyone you want. The worst they can do with them is send you money. You require access to the physical card to make a withdrawal and even then the banks are liable for a fraudulent transaction. Heck I have a picture of every one of my friend's debit cards, and the entire bank transfer system relies on handing over full debit details to anyone.
Debit cards are far more secure than credit cards in sa
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You are fundamentally incorrect on that. What you are saying is that no fraud can take place on a debit card. That is simply not true and any claim that it is idiotic. As far as I can see there is no difference in fraud protection between a debit card and a credit card in Europe. They are both just as susceptible to fraud.
The advantage of the credit card is that recovery from fraud when it does happen is *much* less fraught.
So when fraud does happen on your credit card you get a bill. At that point you can
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You are fundamentally incorrect on that. What you are saying is that no fraud can take place on a debit card.
No. No where did I say no fraud can take place. In fact I directly said where fraud does take place it's a bank liability issue and in Europe you're free to give out your complete debit card details to whomever you want. It's literally the most common way of doing electronic commerce.
That is simply not true and any claim that it is idiotic.
Phew, just was well I didn't make that claim. I hope the rest of your post doesn't hinge on your reading comprehension skills.
The advantage of the credit card is that recovery from fraud when it does happen is *much* less fraught.
Except it's not in Europe. Heck I need to fill out exactly the same form regardless of whether it was
Credit cards are actually terrible for consumers (Score:2)
Credit carts are actually great for responsible consumers compared to alternatives. If I go to a mom & pop store, I try to use cash (less now after the covid thing, but I digress), but in any case I will never give my debit card to anyone. It is not that hard to steal a credit or debit card details, but in the case of the former no money leaves my account when a fraudulent charge is made and, crucially, my bank has not paid any money, so they have nothing to lose by reversing the transaction. Plus, I do get perks like extra warranty and other kinds of protection, plus, 0.5-5% cash back is not bad.
But I have the balance automatically paid, it is idiotic to use them as loans, their interest rates are often ridiculous.
Depending on the market they might be charging retailers quite a bit - I mean Visa seems to be trying to pull something even on a behemoth like Amazon, imagine what they can do to small clients - but I don't really see any alternatives currently.
Before someone mentions bitcoin, apart from all the other issues, if we are talking about fees specifically, when the network is relatively busy like last year (which is not busy at all compared to a credit card network), fees were over $20 / transaction.
Oh look, we have another person who believes that the bank is giving them free money.
What the bank and credit card operators are doing is charging the merchant for accepting the card, the merchant then in turn has to raise his prices to compensate.
So they take 3-6% of the purchase price (taken before the merchant sees the money) and then gives you back 0.5% or even better, points that have an expiry date and a value of about $0.00001 each (and can be devalued even further is they start costing money).
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Out of interest, like what?
Remember that for an alternative to be equal to credit cards it needs to be an instant (and always) available line of credit, accepted by all merchants in all countries, support over-payment and early repayment without penalty and come with customer (section 75) protection.
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Cheaper can compensate for a lot.
It's an accident of history and corruption that credit card users have largely been able to shift the true cost of credit cards onto everyone else. With surcharges now legal in most US states (and a contractual ban on surcharges impossible due to TILA and the Supreme Court judgement against New York concerning surcharges vs discounts) only inertia and propaganda/culture against the acceptability of surcharges stand in the way of surcharges becoming the dominant model for mer
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I've not had a credit card since 2003, and I've been completely debit free since last month. Contrary to what "they" want you to think you can get long just fine without a credit card. I do carry a debit card but that isn't the same thing.
I did the credit card thing 20 years ago and it didn't turn out well. Now the only thing I will go in debit for is only for something I must have and there is not other way. I just paid my car off last month and I'll drive it till they outlaw it or the wheels come o
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debit =/= debt
Unfortunately, you're been overpaying 1-2% on most consumer goods by not using them. The cost of using credit is already baked into the cost. There are a few exceptions where places will give a cash discount, but overall credit is simply cheaper.
I haven't carried a balance on a credit card in a decade, but the combined cashback from all of my cards I've earned in the last four years is around $5500. I agree they need to die; that $5500 I got back you and thousands of others probably overpaid;
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Credit cards are great for people who can control their spending. Please don't project your poor self-control on the rest of us.
Credit cars have much stronger financial protections than debit cards. That is why they are useful.
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You got lucky. Debit cards an invitation to massive Identity Theft problems. They can empty your bank accounts in minutes and banks are MUCH harder to deal with on this issue than credit card companies.
The credit card companies accept the risk of fraud and eat it. They front the money back to you before the investigation and if they think you did the fraud, the worst they do is blacken up your credit history, which you can fight back on. The banks assume you are the ones committing the fraud, keep the
Re: Credit cards need to die... (Score:2)
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On the other hand a credit card means that should my card be used in some fraudulent manner that I can dispute the charge to the card *AFTER THE FACT* and it will be removed from the bill while the dispute is resolved. With a debit card you can eventually get your money back but quite possibly not till after they have drained your bank account and all those critical direct debits like your mortgage payments have failed ruining your credit rating and causing way way more hassle than the same with a credit ca
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Credit cards have moved upwards, they aren't dying anytime soon.
And by upwards, I mean into the B2B world. In the past, if you ran a business, and you had to buy stuff, you issued a purchase order, sent it to the company you're buying stuff from, they fulfill it and send you an invoice. You pay for that invoice with generally a cheque, or a wire transfer. Either takes around the same time - you mail the cheque to the company, or you call your bank, wait on hold, then basically tell them the details on the w
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For people who just want to pay for stuff, there are lots of better alternatives.
In most of Europe people do use their better alternatives. Credit Cards are only used weirdly in the USA, precisely because of that points bizarreness, and partially because there's barriers to alternatives (bank fees).
But they shouldn't die. They serve a very important purpose, liability, ability to extend a short term loan, and ability to use as a security without handing over money (e.g. preauthorisation from a hotel / car hire company).
They should be regulated, not killed.