Atlassian Co-Founder Wants To Buy Australia's Biggest Polluter To Make It Greener (wsj.com) 92
Mike Cannon-Brookes thought Australia's biggest polluter wasn't doing enough to curb its greenhouse gas emissions, so he sought to buy the company. From a report: Mr. Cannon-Brookes, the co-founder of Nasdaq-listed software company Atlassian teamed up with Canada's Brookfield Asset Management to try to acquire electricity generator AGL Energy Ltd., in a proposal valued at more than $3.5 billion. Central to their ambition is a plan to shut AGL's coal-fired power plants years ahead of schedule and replace them with renewable energy. AGL, which the Australian government's Clean Energy Regulator says is Australia's largest emitter of greenhouse gases, said Monday that it had rejected the takeover proposal as too low.
The company plans to close the last of its coal plants by 2045. Mr. Cannon-Brookes and Brookfield, whose head of investing in low-carbon technology is former Bank of England Gov. Mark Carney, say they can make AGL a net-zero emitter by 2035. "AGL accounts for over 8% of Australia's emissions," Mr. Cannon-Brookes said. That is more than the current emissions of Australia's domestic aviation industry and fleet of jets flying on international routes, or every car on the country's roads, he added.
The company plans to close the last of its coal plants by 2045. Mr. Cannon-Brookes and Brookfield, whose head of investing in low-carbon technology is former Bank of England Gov. Mark Carney, say they can make AGL a net-zero emitter by 2035. "AGL accounts for over 8% of Australia's emissions," Mr. Cannon-Brookes said. That is more than the current emissions of Australia's domestic aviation industry and fleet of jets flying on international routes, or every car on the country's roads, he added.
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Do... do you think there's a lot of ice in Australia?
Do you think is was somehow renewables and not the natural gas fired plants that brought down the Texas grid?
Do you eat a lot of paste?
Renewables and, almost as importantly, the grid to support renewables add significant reliability and flexibility to the power supply. Diversity is strength. I would think someone who's experienced the downsides of inbreeding like yourself would recognize that.
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Do... do you think there's a lot of ice in Australia?
He's American (I assume), of course there's lots of ice in Australia, they've got the Alps there, with yodelling and Heidi and glaciers and things. Now if it was somewhere like Austria with its kangaroos and dropbears, that'd be a different story.
Deregulation didn't work well for Texas (Score:5, Informative)
Remember the Texas ice storm?.
Yep. The main failure in the Texas ice storm was that natural gas fired power plants failed because they weren't rated for cold temperatures.
The reason they weren't rated for cold temperatures is that Texas decided that if they didn't connect to the national grid, their electricity market could be unregulated, and therefore the free market would reduce costs by not operating electrical utilities to federal standards. You know, cost-cutting steps like "it doesn't get cold in Houston, so we can skip the federal standards of 'power plants must be able to operate in cold weather'."
A summary of the final report on the Texas grid failures is here: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/... [cbslocal.com]
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How does a massive failure of the Natural Gas infrastructure, from a set of poorly regulated power companies, from an extreme but within practical expectations weather event. Have anything to do with replacing Australians Coal power plants?
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let's move energy control to cloud only and kill s (Score:1)
let's move energy control to cloud only and kill server.
Net zero? (Score:2)
Even power companies do grid as storage accounting?
Great (Score:2)
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But don't individuals already pay those external costs anyway?
I pay directly for my energy, and I also pay for my health care costs either directly at time of service, via health care premiums, or via taxes. Just because the costs aren't in dollars doesn't mean individuals aren't paying that cost.
What the public wants is that if they pay $100 a year more for energy, they want to see their health care bills go down by at least $100; but they don't see that - they just see their overall instantaneous dollar
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But don't individuals already pay those external costs anyway?
Indeed. But what he is suggesting is that the individuals who caused the external costs should pay for them, not the individuals who experienced the external cost.
Possibly you should look up the meaning of "external" in the word "external cost". "External" cost means "costs paid by somebody else.
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I understand that - my observation was that it's almost always the case that someone suffering from an externality is also a benefactor of that externality in the first place.
So what happens is individuals feel like they are penalized twice - they have to pay more for gasoline (say) or use less of it, which is a hit to standard of living, and they don't see any benefit in their other spending areas.
That is: people who benefit from the externality may (would?) not benefit if they had to internalize the cost,
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Yep, that's the tragedy of the commons.
The people who benefit from misuse of a common resource are also the people who pay the costs. Although, in general, the benefits go to a small number of identifiable individuals (or, usually, corporations), while the costs are distributed among a large number of people.
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I understand that - my observation was that it's almost always the case that someone suffering from an externality is also a benefactor of that externality in the first place.
Then it isn't an externality, just to point out. And I'd dispute "almost always".
For example, take some person "rolling coal" down the road, increasing the chances of lung cancer for everybody in the area. Are they benefitting from the black smoke some asshole is spewing?
Hell, am I benefitting from all the cars that aren't as efficient, pollution wise, as they could be? How about the air pollution from the neighbors down the street in the housing development that mandates that yards be mowed 3x a week to
Re: Great (Score:1)
What? No they obviously don't pay those costs, no one does. Or put another way, they are externalized and everyone who depends on the biosphere pays them. Which means everyone.
The actual costs of coal power are essentially infinite in that we literally cannot clean up the mess for any amount of money with modern technology. You think someone is paying for that with money? Are you new?
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Sorry I don't just mean paying "with money" - I mean paying with both money and with consequences. I should've made it more explicit...
Re: Great (Score:2)
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An excellent idea. Indeed, the costs of future energy should not be higher than current energy. That's all the costs including current environmental damage, future costs due to climate change, and all other costs.
Currently you people who consume this coal-generated electricity are making a lot of other people pay costs: native people of the lands the coal is extracted from, people in other countries suffering climate change damage earlier, and most of all future people living in an overheated, degraded planet.
Sure, demand no cost increase. Make sure you include all costs. Otherwise you're just being selfish. You're not a selfish asshole, are you?
Cool. As long as so-called "green" sources are not exempt from this - mining for lithium, cobalt, rare earths, heavy metal pollution that will accompany the need to decomission PV panels, recycling windmill propellers. Everything is everything. And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Yeah, didn't think so.
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Cool. As long as so-called "green" sources are not exempt from this - mining for lithium, cobalt, rare earths, heavy metal pollution that will accompany the need to decomission PV panels, recycling windmill propellers. Everything is everything. And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Absolutely; as long as either the fossil fuel subsidiesd so far, both internal and external, that put us in this position are returned at equivalent value or we give allowance and give the same subsidies to green energy to get it started as we have given to fossil fuels? Deal?
Yeah, didn't think so.
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Cool. As long as so-called "green" sources are not exempt from this - mining for lithium, cobalt, rare earths, heavy metal pollution that will accompany the need to decomission PV panels, recycling windmill propellers. Everything is everything. And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Absolutely; as long as either the fossil fuel subsidiesd so far, both internal and external, that put us in this position are returned at equivalent value or we give allowance and give the same subsidies to green energy to get it started as we have given to fossil fuels? Deal?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Deal. Hooo boy, absolutely deal. Of course that means the "subsidies" needed for "fossil research" that I'd have to pay back pretty much amount to whatever was driving the first caveman to carry a flaming log back to his cave, while the subsidies for solar R&D means you get to refund all the civilizational and scientific development since, that made solar possible. So, still deal? Yeah, didn't think so.
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Deal. Hooo boy, absolutely deal. Of course that means the "subsidies" needed for "fossil research" that I'd have to pay back pretty much amount to whatever was driving the first caveman to carry a flaming log back to his cave,
You inserted the word "research" in there as a strawman. Based on the fact you did it in completely plain sight I'm sure you are trying to debate here and it's just that the standards you are used to in the information sources you read are so bad that you don't even realise you did something wrong, however when you give a quote you should not change the words and you should try to be careful about the context.
Clearly, I'm talking more about things like ongoing direct subsidies of fossil fuel fertilizer prod
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Deal. Hooo boy, absolutely deal. Of course that means the "subsidies" needed for "fossil research" that I'd have to pay back pretty much amount to whatever was driving the first caveman to carry a flaming log back to his cave,
You inserted the word "research" in there as a strawman. Based on the fact you did it in completely plain sight I'm sure you are trying to debate here and it's just that the standards you are used to in the information sources you read are so bad that you don't even realise you did something wrong, however when you give a quote you should not change the words and you should try to be careful about the context.
Clearly, I'm talking more about things like ongoing direct subsidies of fossil fuel fertilizer production in the USA, free provision of security round the world and so on but should also include the costs like all of the Gulf war costs, and the historical use of the atmosphere as a dumping ground.
while the subsidies for solar R&D means you get to refund all the civilizational and scientific development since, that made solar possible. So, still deal? Yeah, didn't think so.
Don't be silly. Most of that stuff was already paid off with the development of the computer industry. The solar industry is already paying off more than the incremental technological change that it needs. I guess, from the desperation here, you understand clearly that you have a serious losing argument. When you compare the costs inflicted on humanity by renewable energy with those of fossil fuels the insanity of using and investing in fossil fuels quickly becomes clear.
Ah, I get it. So solar gets a free ride on the back of civilization that made it possible (coal-powered civilization might I add), while coal has to pay for all of it. Legit.
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Ah, I get it. So solar gets a free ride on the back of civilization that made it possible (coal-powered civilization might I add), while coal has to pay for all of it. Legit.
Your grasp of history is... interesting...
Coal did not suddenly leap out of nowhere, perfectly formed. Coal development was supported by renewable energy - wood burning came first. Even when it comes to electricity, the first power stations were hydro powered with the first coal powered electricity generation coming on three years later.
Fossil fuel enthusiasts are the freeloaders of society.
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Ah, I get it. So solar gets a free ride on the back of civilization that made it possible (coal-powered civilization might I add), while coal has to pay for all of it. Legit.
Your grasp of history is... interesting...
Coal did not suddenly leap out of nowhere, perfectly formed. Coal development was supported by renewable energy - wood burning came first. Even when it comes to electricity, the first power stations were hydro powered with the first coal powered electricity generation coming on three years later.
Fossil fuel enthusiasts are the freeloaders of society.
OK, so apparently burning wood counts as "100% green, renewable" now, when it suits you for the purpose of discussion, and suddenly there's no crying about Amazon rainforests, homeless koala bears and so on. Strange, because when talking about producing energy, the greens want to kill biofuels just as much as everything else that's not "WIND OR SOLAR PERIOD!!!". Even just yesterday on /. we had a rain of green tears about using corn as biofuel, and wood would be even worse. Shifting goalposts anyone? Also,
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OK, so apparently burning wood counts as "100% green, renewable" now, when it suits you for the purpose of discussion,
Life is not simple and black and white. Wood is not a fossil resource, but it isn't perfect. If you take wood from sustainable forestry then it is a fully renewable resource, however it can also cause pollution and cancer. Better than burning coal, worse than wind.
and suddenly there's no crying about Amazon rainforests, homeless koala bears and so on.
Well, if you took it from a nice sustainable Scottish forest as I would likely take my wood, I don't see what harm it could do to the Amazon Rainforest or koalas.
Strange, because when talking about producing energy, the greens want to kill biofuels just as much as everything else that's not "WIND OR SOLAR PERIOD!!!". Even just yesterday on /. we had a rain of green tears about using corn as biofuel, and wood would be even worse.
Bio-ethanol or even just corn is often a delusion because huge amounts of fertilizer
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OK, so apparently burning wood counts as "100% green, renewable" now, when it suits you for the purpose of discussion,
Life is not simple and black and white. Wood is not a fossil resource, but it isn't perfect. If you take wood from sustainable forestry then it is a fully renewable resource, however it can also cause pollution and cancer. Better than burning coal, worse than wind.
and suddenly there's no crying about Amazon rainforests, homeless koala bears and so on.
Well, if you took it from a nice sustainable Scottish forest as I would likely take my wood, I don't see what harm it could do to the Amazon Rainforest or koalas.
Strange, because when talking about producing energy, the greens want to kill biofuels just as much as everything else that's not "WIND OR SOLAR PERIOD!!!". Even just yesterday on /. we had a rain of green tears about using corn as biofuel, and wood would be even worse.
Bio-ethanol or even just corn is often a delusion because huge amounts of fertilizer are used on the crop and that's produced from oil, which is a fossil fuel. I believe that sometimes you end up using more oil for biofuel than you would have if you had just burnt the stuff. Obviously, that's not always true. Brazilan sugar-cane derived ethanol is apparently better, but still it comes back to the same "not black and white" thing. You have to actually check the facts of the thing you are really doing, not a hypothetical fantasy.
Shifting goalposts anyone? Also, I'd like to see you smelting iron using wood, even bronze is kinda pain. So yeah, jumping from Stone Age to solar rooftops, perfectly legit.
Charcoal, which is wood derived, has been the fuel of choice in many places for iron smelting. Of course, if you just cut and burn down all the forests around you to make it without giving them a chance to recover that won't be great, but that's your choice.
Yeah, once you find that hypothetical "sustainable Scottish forest" which can sustain Earth's energy needs (or even a significant portion thereof) feel free to implement this "clever" plan. And remember to make a plan to deal with people crying about homeless squirrels, because you will get them.
Ten thousand tons. a day [Re:Great] (Score:5, Interesting)
Cool. As long as so-called "green" sources are not exempt from this - mining for lithium, cobalt, rare earths, heavy metal pollution that will accompany the need to decomission PV panels, recycling windmill propellers. Everything is everything. And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Indeed.
Turns out that these costs actually are small compared to external costs for fossil fuel sources, because when you make a solar panel, you make it once and use it for its lifetime, whereas when you mine thousand tons of coal to burn today, when you're done you have burned it up and need to mine another ten thousand tons of coal tomorrow.
(And, yes, those figures are right. A typical 1-MW power plant burns ten [energyeducation.ca] to fourteen thousand tons [uiuc.edu] of coal a day.) Most people just don't have a good feel of the scale of coal mining in the world.
And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Deal. Turns out that the taxpayer subsidies for fossil fuels are enormous, much larger than the subsidies for renewables. But they've been so ingrained into our political system that people just ignore them. Donald Trump, for example, promised one billion dollars in subsidies to keep a single coal-fired plant open (part of his promise to coal workers that he would "put our miners back to work".
Re: Ten thousand tons. a day [Re:Great] (Score:2)
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From one link, and average 1,000 MW plant burns 9,000 long tonnes per day.
From the other says 14,000 US tons a day for 1,000,000,000 kWh over a year, which works out to a day using 14,000 US tons for 2.74 GWh, maybe, you do the math, I'm too confused to double check.
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Cool. As long as so-called "green" sources are not exempt from this - mining for lithium, cobalt, rare earths, heavy metal pollution that will accompany the need to decomission PV panels, recycling windmill propellers. Everything is everything. And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Indeed.
Turns out that these costs actually are small compared to external costs for fossil fuel sources, because when you make a solar panel, you make it once and use it for its lifetime, whereas when you mine thousand tons of coal to burn today, when you're done you have burned it up and need to mine another ten thousand tons of coal tomorrow.
(And, yes, those figures are right. A typical 1-MW power plant burns ten [energyeducation.ca] to fourteen thousand tons [uiuc.edu] of coal a day.) Most people just don't have a good feel of the scale of coal mining in the world.
And you apparently have no idea how much raw ore you have to process to extract some rarer elements, or how many orders of magnitude is lead more toxic than carbon. These do tend to cancel out, you know?
And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Deal. Turns out that the taxpayer subsidies for fossil fuels are enormous, much larger than the subsidies for renewables. But they've been so ingrained into our political system that people just ignore them. Donald Trump, for example, promised one billion dollars in subsidies to keep a single coal-fired plant open (part of his promise to coal workers that he would "put our miners back to work".
LOL. Nice pearl clutching. The reality is that there are some point interventions, but other than those exceptions, coal is taxed. HEAVILY. But absolutely, any subsidies are evil, so don't make the mistake of thinking I support them. Withdraw any subsidies AND taxes, and let's really see which energy source
Negative tax on Coal [Re:Ten thousand tons. a day] (Score:2)
Cool. As long as so-called "green" sources are not exempt from this - mining for lithium, cobalt, rare earths, heavy metal pollution that will accompany the need to decomission PV panels, recycling windmill propellers. Everything is everything. And no taxpayer subsidies for you either. Deal?
Indeed. Turns out that these costs actually are small compared to external costs for fossil fuel sources, because when you make a solar panel, you make it once and use it for its lifetime, whereas when you mine thousand tons of coal to burn today, when you're done you have burned it up and need to mine another ten thousand tons of coal tomorrow. (And, yes, those figures are right. A typical 1-GW power plant burns ten [energyeducation.ca] to fourteen thousand tons [uiuc.edu] of coal a day.) Most people just don't have a good feel of the scale of coal mining in the world.
*typo corrected.
And you apparently have no idea how much raw ore you have to process to extract some rarer elements,
Actually, I do. For various reasons, I have a working knowledge of resource geology.
And the answer is, not terribly much for the elements of interest. You do know that the main "raw ore" for solar cells is sand, right? Number two, by weight, would be aluminum (for the frames), but the fraction of aluminum production that goes into solar panels is absolutely trivial compared to the 64 million tons produced per year for other uses.
or how many orders of magnitude is lead more toxic than carbon.
Lead??? What does that have to do with anything? Do you think they still us
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Ha ha ha! Good joke. Yes, there is a 4.4% excise tax on coal (which comes to $1.22 per ton at current price)-- but also a $7.30 per ton tax credit. Coal is heavily negatively taxed. (google the phrase "coal tax credit").
Gosh OMFG goodnes golly, a WHOLE of SEVEN BUCKS THIRTY CENTS cents per ton?!!! ZOMFG, that LIEK TOTALLY changes things! That's like giving it away for free! No wonder solar can't compete against that magnitude of dumping, that's practically like PAYING you to take coal energy! Next to that, renewable subsidies are NUFFIN!!! NUFFIN I TELLS YA!!!
...not.
One, it's on your side of the pond, on mine things look completely different.
Two, yes, I had to google that and guess what the first link told me? It's go
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Ha ha ha! Good joke. Yes, there is a 4.4% excise tax on coal (which comes to $1.22 per ton at current price)-- but also a $7.30 per ton tax credit. Coal is heavily negatively taxed. (google the phrase "coal tax credit").
Gosh OMFG goodnes golly, a WHOLE of SEVEN BUCKS THIRTY CENTS cents per ton?!!! ZOMFG, that LIEK TOTALLY changes things!
My post was a reply to a post that said
coal is taxed. HEAVILY.
It wasn't intended to say "that changes everything". It was intended to point out that this purported tax is not only zeroed out, but reversed by tax credits.
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Well, if there is an asshole in the conversation, I would tend point the finger at you with your snotty tone. Did you actually read and UNDERSTAND what he wrote? Nowhere does he say that there can't be any increase in prices, but he does say they need to be reasonable which is a fair request. Plus the stipulation about reliability is about as fair as it comes. Sheesh.
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I agree with the sentiment of this. I want him to succeed so that perhaps Australia moves to renewable energy as quickly as possible.
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I hope they succeed, but under the following conditions. You can't raise rates any faster than normal, you must provide reliability equal to or better than what is currently provided.
Translation: "I am in support of looking after our planet, just as long as it doesn't cost me anything or inconvenience me in any way."
Re: Great (Score:2)
This isn't as unreasonable as it sounds. The world economy grows at a rate of 2-3% a year, which means a doubling in total existing wealth every few decades. This increased wealth tends to go into increasing standards of living. If it went towards fixing the climate, people would, in principle at least, be able to keep their current standard of living without degradation. It wouldn't improve further from what it is now, but it wouldn't become worse either. But that also means standards of living in the thir
Relevant reading in the Economist (Score:2, Redundant)
https://www.economist.com/lead... [economist.com]
"Divesting from dirty assets" only moves the assets somewhere else. It doesn't stop carbon emissions. The idea that "divesting from carbon emitting assets" will somehow cause them to cease to exist is untrue. There are enough investors out there who don't care about carbon emissions that someone will buy the assets and operate them.
Even the boss of BlackRock - arch-capitalists - says the way to reduce emissions is to own assets and reduce their emissions, not just feel good
Re:Relevant reading in the Economist (Score:5, Informative)
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or shutting down the coal/NG and replace with modern nuclear reactors --unfortunately australia doesn't really have a backup option like Germany does (did?)
but nahhhh that would make far too much sense.
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or shutting down the coal/NG and replace with modern nuclear reactors --unfortunately australia doesn't really have a backup option like Germany does (did?)
but nahhhh that would make far too much sense.
Australia has by far the biggest uranium reserves on earth, but have no commercial reactors of their own.. And their second biggest export is coal (after iron ore).
It is both funny and sad at the same time.
Re: Relevant reading in the Economist (Score:2)
That would make no sense at all, not even a little bit, because we can build renewables cheaper, cleaner, and faster... Even WITH storage. Nuclear does not make any sense and cannot help with AGW.
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well no, we really can't. Even discounting the baseload question, or clouds (which admittedly, it's australia) or a lack of wind etc etc.
but okay cool. Good to see the anti-nuclear FUD alive and well.
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well no, we really can't. Even discounting the baseload question, or clouds (which admittedly, it's australia) or a lack of wind etc etc. but okay cool. Good to see the anti-nuclear FUD alive and well.
Nuclear is not allowed in our future green utopia. Discussion of hydrogen is verboten as well. Only wind and solar have the necessary environmentalist seal of approval.
And if the sun is not shining, or the wind is not blowing, we can just rely on our friendly neighbors to supply all of our needs as well.
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Nuclear power has never been a reality in Australia.
The time for discussion was back in the 1970s when Sir Henry Bolte had all but commissioned a site but backed out of the deal.
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we can build renewables cheaper, cleaner, and faster... Even WITH storage
well no, we really can't. Even discounting the baseload question, or clouds (which admittedly, it's australia) or a lack of wind etc etc.
I see you missed the part about storage, it must be hard to read with your head that far up your asshole.
Non paywall link (Score:5, Informative)
the $8bn offer was at a 4.6% premium to AGL Energy shares, which closed on Friday at $7.16, and a 20% premium to the average traded price in the past month.
It meant a fast-track of AGL’s decarbonisation plans with a strategy to achieve net zero emissions by 2035, rather than its current 50% reduction in emissions plan by 2030 from the levels of fiscal 2019.
But in a market announcement this morning, AGL Energy said it rejected the “unsolicited, preliminary, non-binding” indication of interest because it “materially undervalues the company on a change of control basis” and is not “in the best interest of AGL Energy shareholders.”
“Mike has $20 billion he wants to throw at renewable energy investment, AGL is worth about $8 billion – he hasn’t launched this bid expecting it to be the last and this just means the bell has gone for round one,”
https://stockhead.com.au/energ... [stockhead.com.au]
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Did he buy a few million shares before making the offer? If so it was very astute, he just made a few lazy million dollars.
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Re:Expensive symbolism over substance (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a general finger-pointing type of objection, the net result of which is that nobody does anything.
Because everybody will say "oh, my part in the problem is trivial, go solve the problem somewhere else first."
In fact, the problem is everybody, and everybody needs to contribute.
(that's why it's so hard a problem. Nobody can solve it alone).
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It is not that people don't get it, it is they are unwilling to put the effort and risk to get it done.
I drive a Prius and a SUV, when I purchased those cars there were Electric Cars available, however back then their range was limited, While I am replacing my Prius with an Electric Car now, it is only because they had became a viable option, and I am getting a bigger, faster and nicer car. I only got the Prius a decade ago, because I had a 30 mile commute to work and 30 miles back, and Gas Prices are lik
That's why it's hard [Re:Expensive symbolism...] (Score:3)
...While I believe in Man Made Climate Change, I know that I am not going to put myself at a disadvantage...
Yes, exactly. And, that goes at the national level. This is why it's a hard problem, every nation says "we are not going to put ourselves at a disadvantage..."
It's a global problem, and needs a global solution.
Making it even more complicated is that there is a large segment of America (and the rest of the world) that is stubornly against any form of international cooperation. (And you see them post incessantly on slashdot).
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well virtue greenwashed virtue signaling is great; it shows a fantastic level of committment, and that prius and future ev will definitely earn you some green-cred, and maybe save yourself a bit of money --so kudos!
meanwhile gigantic cargo ships that generate several orders of magnitude more emissions than all the passenger vehicles on earth are still ferrying consumer goods across the oceans. Wake me when the progressive environmentalists rally behind that cause. In other words cheap plastic crap from Chi
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The argument that you can't solve all the problems at once is not a reason to not do anything.
On another point, price proves to be a pretty good proxy for embodied energy. You could buy a lot of cheap plastic for the price of filling the average car every week. But the point that reducing consumption would help - definitely agree.
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Wrong. It's simple math.
Wrong. It's simple finger-pointing: it's the other guy!
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How can you make such an ignorant statement when China emits more than twice the carbon of the next biggest emitter,
That is a perfect example of finger pointing.
And if you would prefer to finger point at America, you could say that America emits more than twice the carbon per capita that China does.
Fingerpointing.
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The Earth;s environment doesn't care about per capita, only absolute carbon quantities. China is under central control and emits the most carbon. What China's government does matters. What Australia does doesn't matter at all.
You have no logic and only can resort to 10 year old's phrase of finger pointing.
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When you point a finger at somebody else, that is finger pointing. By definition.
I could also call it "whataboutism" if you prefer.
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Per capita China emits half what Australia, US and Canada do (rough numbers).
Is there some reason an Australian has a right to emit more CO2 than a Chinese? A Canadian, an American? No - it's a nonsense.
We need to get past focusing on total emissions by country, and start looking at per capita - that's were the data identifying the real vandals starts to fall out. And Australia sits pretty close to the top of that table.
Finally, describing targeting high per capita pollution countries as symbolism is you sh
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Small percentages of Really Big numbers are still big numbers.
If successful, then those are real numbers that are noticeable, and can be used as a model for others to follow, So if hundred or thousand of other billionaire investors jump on and do the same thing, then you can see major improvement, with the effort of a relatively few people.
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Wrong, Australia doesn't matter at all.
China matters, and in a few decades india will be the other monster emitter. What they do will dominate everything.
"Making a model for others to follow" is nonsense, the tech for green is known and global. The big emitters need to do it, not the little chicken shit nations.
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Get China and then India on renewables
Why? A Chinese person even with the power of policies of their nation behind them emits a tiny fraction of the emissions of an American or Australian. The issue is there's just so many of them.
So what do you propose? Kill the Chinese to get their numbers down to USA levels? Will you then take your emissions seriously? Maybe you're just happy being a rich westerner and fuck the billion Chinese people for being Chinese. They made their choice and don't deserve to emit as much as you (specifically YOU).
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You are making the per capita fallacy. China has a central point of control and so can determine where and how they get their energy. They're the big emitters, they can change and it will make a difference. Australia too has a central point of control, but they don't matter.
Get it through your head, we have major polluting entities with central point of control and borders, that choose how they will pollute or not.
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But this DOES impact China (Score:2)
So Australia makes one percent the yearly manmade atmospheric carbon ... Get China and then India on renewables
Australia is the #2 exporter of coal worldwide (more than the next 3 exporters combined). As long as coal is essential domestically, its mining is a national priority. If Australia kicks coal generation, it will easier to shut down mining, or impose onerous regulations to stifle the industry.
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Australia has some of the worst carbon emission figures on a per capita basis. Like Saudia Arabia bad.
8 percent of 1 percent isn't a bad start for a handful of guys. Getting a CO2 recalcitrant like Australia to actually "do something soon" would be a useful exemplar. China and India point to rich recalcitrants like Australia and say "why should we bother, if a rich and prosperous country like Australia isn't even trying". In the meantime, in Oz the excuse for doing nothing is, "but we are so small, it wont
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Earth's environment doesn't care about per capita, only absolute carbon emission numbers. Raising a per capita argument is nonsensical and ignorant because countries have a central point of control, their governments. It doesn't matter what Australia does at all. It matters a great deal what China under its government does.
A man setting a pile of tires on fire might have the greatest per capita emissions of all, but China's emissions are what matter to the Earth, not the city tire fire.
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Raising a per capita argument is nonsensical and ignorant because countries have a central point of control, their governments. It doesn't matter what Australia does at all.
You've kind of torpedoed your own argument with the "at all", but what the heck...
It matters a lot if China uses Australia's lack of action as a reason for them to do nothing (or even increase).
Also worth thinking about the fact that the rest of the world (as in minus China) emits more emissions than China. By your argument it doesn't matter what all the other countries do - even though they emit 75% of global emissions.
Even if you took the top 5 polluters (China, US, India, Indonesia and Japan) you are sti
It's a better approach ... (Score:2)
Not like the distributed, customer-owned systems. Can you imagine the stink that would be created if the local system operator reached out over the smart grid and said, "We have enough generation on line. We're turning your roof-top panels off."
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It's already going to happen in Western Australia. Modern AMI meters have two circuits; one for supply and one for solar etc which can be remotely commanded to disconnect.
https://www.westernpower.com.a... [westernpower.com.au]
Lost cause (Score:5, Insightful)
One hand shits on the other - for profit! (Score:2)
Well, good luck to him (Score:2)
Codswallop (Score:1)