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Amazon Sued by District of Columbia for 'Stealing' Delivery Driver Tips (bloomberg.com) 126

Washington DC's attorney general is suing Amazon, seeking civil penalties for allegedly misleading consumers who thought they were tipping delivery drivers but had the money diverted to cover the couriers' base pay. From a report: The case, filed in Washington DC Superior Court, cites a 2021 settlement between the company and the Federal Trade Commission, in which the agency found that Amazon withheld tips meant for its gig-economy drivers for more than two years.
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Amazon Sued by District of Columbia for 'Stealing' Delivery Driver Tips

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  • by LeeLynx ( 6219816 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:29PM (#63110800)
    Why is 'stealing' in 'quotes'? Do we feel there is some sort of ambiguity here?
    • by Freischutz ( 4776131 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:32PM (#63110822)

      Why is 'stealing' in 'quotes'? Do we feel there is some sort of ambiguity here?

      Yes, If you are a business owner in the US, odds are that you feel that customer tips are money that is being stolen from you by your employees.

      • by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:53PM (#63110908) Journal

        One can get sued for defamation for implying a company is guilty before such is proven in a court of law. Usually the word "allegedly" is included to avoid such, but the editor may have felt that was too verbose for a title, so used quotes instead.

        • Really? So if I say "Amazon is a thief, and is run by a thief", I can be sued? Good thing I used quotes instead of leaving them off like this: Amazon is a thief, and is run by a thief.

        • by LeeLynx ( 6219816 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:53PM (#63111246)
          You seem to misunderstand how defamation works. Washington DC is, in fact, suing Amazon. They aren't allegedly suing. The article title isn't asserting as fact that Amazon did anything, or even implying any such thing, it's stating the demonstrable fact that DC has filed suit against Amazon for actions that DC claims Amazon took. How one wishes to characterize the allegations in that suit is opinion, and last I checked you're not going to hang a libel claim on that particular hook.
          • by mjwx ( 966435 )

            You seem to misunderstand how defamation works. Washington DC is, in fact, suing Amazon. They aren't allegedly suing. The article title isn't asserting as fact that Amazon did anything, or even implying any such thing, it's stating the demonstrable fact that DC has filed suit against Amazon for actions that DC claims Amazon took. How one wishes to characterize the allegations in that suit is opinion, and last I checked you're not going to hang a libel claim on that particular hook.

            Erm... the "allegedly" goes before the stealing, not before the suing. The headline in the BBC style guide would be "Washington DC Suing Amazon over allegedly stealing workers tips". Punctuation notwithstanding (grammar Nazis need entertainment).

            • Yes. That's what all those words after the first three sentences were about.

              You see, I intended all of that to be taken as part of the idea expressed in the post. That is why I added it there, as opposed to making a different post, typing it into an open notepad window, or shouting it out into the street. I can see where this may have been confusing, as it was a very lengthy post. Considering that this reply is likely already dangerously close to reaching the outer edges of your attention span, I would l
        • One can get sued for defamation for implying a company is guilty before such is proven in a court of law. Usually the word "allegedly" is included to avoid such, but the editor may have felt that was too verbose for a title, so used quotes instead.

          If a journalist makes a personal statement, then the qualifier term allegedly is needed. However, in this instance, the term is used to qualify a third-party statement, i.e., the complaint in the lawsuit. Not only is no qualifier is needed, but a qualifier changes the connotation of the original statement and is misleading. The quotes in this particular situation are incorrect, as the complaint makes a direct accusation, and the quotes attribute meaning to that complaint that attempts to convey a first-p

          • by torkus ( 1133985 )

            No. The quotes are correct (actually should be single quotes i believe) because it's a paraphrase of what the lawsuit says.

            If the lawsuit directly alleged **amazon hired people for a taskforce to locate children and physically steal the candy from their hands** then ya....

      • by kqs ( 1038910 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:21PM (#63111048)

        Not All Business Owners (my wife and I owned a coffee shop where everyone got more than minimum, plus all tips went to the employees), but yeah, way too many employers believe in "employees are replaceable drones". They are also shocked that employees have no loyalty towards their employers.

        If you want the economy to improve, you need folks to have more disposable income, which means higher wages.

        • If you want the economy to improve, you need folks to have more disposable income, which means higher wages.

          *heats house with "disposable" income*

          Evil Geniuses: The Unmaking of America: A Recent History [amazon.com]

        • by dbialac ( 320955 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @03:21PM (#63111384)

          They are also shocked that employees have no loyalty towards their employers.

          You can thank the 1980s for that. During that time period, it became acceptable to lay off people who had been on staff for decades and nuke their retirement plans. Previously, ownership tried to keep as many people on staff as possible while keeping the company going.

      • Standard business practice: What's mine is mine, and what's yours shoul be mine too.

        Many business owners really don't think tips belong to the person they money was given to. Tips are the reason that restaurant workers can be paid less than minimum wage. Even workers that aren't directly on the receiving end of tips can be paid below minimum wage for this reason in many places (ie, busboys, dish washers, etc), so many restaurants share the tips (tipping should be obsolete, but that's a separate issue). Bu

        • Standard business practice: What's mine is mine, and what's yours should be mine too.

          Standard HUMAN practice aka piracy.

      • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Wage theft is the most common type of theft. It's happened to almost everyone at some point in their lives, even if it was only their employer not paying them for an extra few minutes they worked. It's often done through theft of earned holiday time, making employees pay for things that employers are legally obliged to provide, unpaid overtime, and of course: theft of tips.

        • Most people are too afraid to speak up when it happens to them.

          If you cannot afford to walk away from a job, it is hard to justify the risk of upsetting the boss by complaining over something small, so the bosses get away with it -over and over again until it becomes normal behavior.

      • If you feel like this, you do not belong in the service industry. Period.

        A tip is something that I give to a person providing me with a service. That tip belongs to that person. Nobody else. That is strictly between me and that person. The business owner does not even enter that equation.

        • Genuine question (so dont read into this)...

          Why is the person that brings the food or product to you the sole person entitled to the tip?

          Why not any of the people supporting that person?

          The obvious ones are all the front of house staff - if the restaurant has someone seating people, someone clearing tables, someone taking orders (often all one person, sometimes not). All contributing to the experience you have as a diner.

          The non obvious ones are the rear of house staff - the chefs, the cooks, the people wh

          • Because the tip is for the service that I get from him. He has to deal with me and the uncertainty what kind of asshole I may be. Everyone else in the chain has a very well defined and expectable workload, the last person in that delivery chain does not. I can be difficult to deal with. Or I can make special requests beyond the normal defined delivery conditions. I cannot do this with anyone else in the chain because there is no way to convey that request to these people, and neither do they suffer for not

    • by jobslave ( 6255040 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:50PM (#63110898)

      What service is this for? I've never seen an option to tip a delivery driver and we've received 1000s of deliveries from Amazon.

      • by ugen ( 93902 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @05:29PM (#63111778)

        Whole Foods orders - you can tip the delivery person (I never do, though - Amazon needs to pay them a proper wage, not rely on consumers overpaying for goods or services)

        • Agreed. It's a very shitty American custom that needs to go away. A tip means you are either under paid or are under charging for your service. Plain and simple. If a tip is what makes you provide better service, then you are a shitty human being.

          • Agreed. It's a very shitty American custom that needs to go away. A tip means you are either under paid or are under charging for your service. Plain and simple. If a tip is what makes you provide better service, then you are a shitty human being.

            While I'd like to agree with you on principle, in practice I find there is a large and distinct difference in the level of customer service between tipping and non-tipping regions. If you like quick, efficient and cheerful service, you're far better off in countries where tipping is expected. If you enjoy being served by people who are slow, sloppy and clearly annoyed that you're bothering them by patronizing their employer, go to countries where it is not.

            That said, I do find the gradual inflation of the

            • There is a possible middle ground (in the US), where waitstaff are paid reasonable wages, and tipping is allowed/encouraged for exceptional service. Your base wage should be the value of doing your job at a standard level of effort, and it must at least be a living wage. If you have a person going above and beyond, for whatever reason, then I don't see a problem with giving them an extra tip.

              But the scale of that tip should be much smaller than the typical 15-20% in the US. I typically give 15% to someone w

    • Why is 'stealing' in 'quotes'? Do we feel there is some sort of ambiguity here?

      I suppose that was a rhetorical question. But for anybody who is interested in how this was rationalized: 'In late 2016, the company secretly switched to a variable-pay system in which drivers' earnings could fluctuate based on an internal algorithm, regulators allege. Under that system, the government said, Amazon could advertise a payment of "$18-$24" for a particular delivery, but if a customer tipped $6 Amazon would pay th

      • They gave customers the option to 'tip', which is reasonably understood by anyone who speaks American English to indicate that the money is for the driver, not the employer, and to be in addition to whatever their wage would otherwise be had a tip not been given at all. This is what it means when you tip a server at a restaurant, and this is what any ordinary person believes it means when you tip anyone else.

        Gig economy companies such as Amazon and Uber have recognized that they will never attract enough
    • A reader might infer theft from the use of the word 'stealing'. What Amazon has done here is fraud, not theft.

    • It's not in implied quotes, it's in actual quotes.

    • Because they didn't clearly steal anything. They asked their customers for a donation and many of them chose to donate potentially because they were misled as to where that money was going.

      It's maybe fraud. But not stealing.

  • With all the abuses of its employees, its underhanded tactics, its crappy products which it both produces and knowingly sells, it's amazing people still buy from them.

    One would have thought people would have wised up and stopped supporting this travesty of capitalism.

    I guess laziness overcomes principles.

    • we've been maintaining our economy by keeping prices on consumer goods low for 20 years. Housing, education, healthcare, transportation & food all keep going up in price and we've been able to offset that with cheaper consumer goods. You can go on Amazon and find a serviceable set of towels or a bedsheet or a TV or a laptop for your kid's school or whatever for sometimes 1/2 what it would be at Target or Walmart. Either that or Target/Walmart have been forced to drop their prices

      On paper it's compet
      • Amazon's competitive strength is certainly not cost, their strong points are convenience, selection, and popularity...most everyone in the first world already has an Amazon account and has bought something from them so they're an easy option to go back to. Their prices are at least as high as Wal-Mart or Target or the average local brick n' mortar in my experience.

        Amazon sells you a mix of the same name-brand premium stuff you can buy for about the same price from a local brick n' mortar, and the same cheap

      • When I can, I always shop in person. Amazon is abusive, not just to its workersbut also to it's parners. It is also to the economic system that demands competition. Amazon wants to the be the one and only market in existence. Walmart is the same way, they activelly attempt to destroy competition, sometimes by just undercutting the prices until the competition in town goes out of business and then raising the prices back up. We're really back in the era of monopolies again, but without the political will

      • we've been maintaining our economy by keeping prices on consumer goods low for 20 years.

        Largely by importing vast amounts of goods from other countries, and paying them in US currency that the Treasury and the Fed simply conjure up as needed. You might call it "The Emperor's New Money".

        And it's been since 1945 at least - 77 years and counting. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

  • This is obvious theft, lock up the perps and let them correct their illegal practices if they want their managers released.

  • Paywall (Score:4, Informative)

    by crow ( 16139 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @01:33PM (#63110826) Homepage Journal

    Here's the article without a paywall:

    https://news.bloomberglaw.com/... [bloomberglaw.com]

  • How could anyone at Amazon begin to think this was anything but outright theft?

    I've heard a lot about wage theft in recent years, which is a long-standing problem in the construction industry where some subcontractors simply don't pay their workers or underpay them and just walk away. This is often combined with hiring undocumented workers, so the victims don't feel safe approaching the police. But it's usually small contractors with a dozen or fewer employees at a time, and prosecutors haven't always bee

    • not even employees but fake 1099ers with no control over there job.
      We need to fix that part and at least get them the min wage.

    • by taustin ( 171655 )

      Amazon uses a lot of contract employees for deliveries, including through other companies. The article says this is about tips they've already paid out under a settlement with the FTC three years ago, and points out that the drivers involved in that were considered - by Amazon - to be independent contractors.

      • Amazon uses a lot of contract employees for deliveries, including through other companies. The article says this is about tips they've already paid out under a settlement with the FTC three years ago, and points out that the drivers involved in that were considered - by Amazon - to be independent contractors.

        Awwww ... you sweet summer child, you didn't read TFA did you?

        Racine on Wednesday announced a new complaint against Amazon and Amazon Logistics Inc., accusing them of defrauding consumers by using tips to offset the companies’ own labor costs while advertising to customers that 100% of tips would go to drivers. ... Racine’s office said the FTC didn’t have authority to award penalties beyond restitution. The D.C. lawsuit is seeking civil penalties for violations of the district’s consumer protection law and a court order blocking Amazon from using the same tip policy in the future. ... “In the years Amazon had this policy in place, consumers in D.C. paid millions of dollars in ‘tips’ to reward drivers for providing a valuable service. Meanwhile, Amazon used much of those tips to save on its own operating costs, thereby deceiving both District consumers and drivers,” the attorney general’s office alleged in the complaint.

        Amazon literally used these tips to pay drivers' base pay while advertising that 100% of the tips were going to the drivers on top of their base pay. In the estimation of the D.C. Attorney General that constitutes fraud. Just because the Federal Trade Commission is done kicking Amazon in the nuts for being a bunch of greedy corporate shit-stains does not mean that everybody else is. It sounds like D.C. Attorney General is delivering a big fat mor

        • by taustin ( 171655 )

          This is about the same thing as the FTC case three years ago. The merits of either side's arguments do not change that.

          So go jerk off in the basement some more, but try not too inhale too much Cheetos dust. It's bad for the lungs.

    • Just like you get subcontractors to make your misdeeds someone else's fault, Amazon just gets "independent" contractors or agencies. It all comes down to the handshake: I'm giving you $X to do this job for us, and I don't care how you do it or who you hire as long as I don't get any of the blame.

    • How could anyone at Amazon begin to think this was anything but outright theft?

      That's Entitlement 101 for any business psychopath in good standing. Rather as your government sincerely believes that it owns everything - including you - but leaves you a little freedom and some trinkets to play with so it can toy with you while looking forward to the fun of crushing you later.

      Hey, how about that - I managed to offend both Demoblicans and Republicrats in just two sentences!

  • A person, I think, who is paid $2.13 in wages must still earn minimum wage. This is earned through tips, though officially the employer is supposed to make up the difference if tips does not cover minimum wage. Likewise , the employee has no ownership of tips over minimum wage.

    Employers tend to be in the wrong with tips in the spirit of the law, it not legally, which is why so many give tips in cash directly to the person. One friend kept all tips, as the business owner, for herself as her staff were pa

    • The problem isn't who keeps the money - it's the lack of transparency. If I want to be kind to a delivery drive who I know is treated like garbage by a company, but likely this is their only good option for employment, I want to know that extra money I pay goes right to them rather than to fund some manager's next Caribbean cruise.

      Even better, I try to shop at companies that treat their employees well. But, sadly, those companies are increasingly hard to find.
    • by taustin ( 171655 )

      If you read the article, Amazon says this is over tips for drivers they considered independent contractors that they say they paid out three years ago under a settlement with the FTC. So it is apparently no a new issue.

      (And the tipping rules you mention only apply to employees. If these drivers are, in fact, independent contractors, those rules don't apply. Also, those are federal rules. Different jurisdictions have different, more restrictive rules. California, for instance, does not have a separate, lower

      • If you read the article, Amazon says this is over tips for drivers they considered independent contractors that they say they paid out three years ago under a settlement with the FTC. So it is apparently no a new issue.

        (And the tipping rules you mention only apply to employees. If these drivers are, in fact, independent contractors, those rules don't apply. Also, those are federal rules. Different jurisdictions have different, more restrictive rules. California, for instance, does not have a separate, lower minimum wage for tipped employees. DC's minimum is $5.35. This, however, is federal.)

        And yet these geniuses advertised that 100% of the tips were going to the drivers leading customers to believe that this was in addition to their base pay. Just because Amazon considers something to be a certain way does not mean this is the last word on the matter. They found that out when they got hit by the Federal Trade Commission like an elbow from the sky. Now they are finding out that in the US American justice system settling with the Federal Trade Commission does not guarantee that you won't be sue

        • by taustin ( 171655 )

          I was just pointing out that the person I replied to was wrong about how the minimum wage vs tipping works, and even more wrong about this being about that in the first place.

          You may now ejaculate all over your monitor while you type out yet another screed that has nothing to do with what you're replying to.

          And you know you will, wanker.

    • That's a good point. The government is happy to consider tips as normal income for the purpose of:

      1. Making minimum wage
      2. Taxable income

      Waitress tips are self-report. Since this goes through computers, is it auto-taxed by software?

      A = Wage (and charge for ride)
      B = tip, you kind person!

      Tax(A + B)
      Minimum wage check (A + B)

      Where is the deception? Some imagined invisible line or box pretending to present the tip to the driver with a ribbon? They get that!

    • If I were a customer, I would state that your "friend" was stealing from me. I gave that money to the employee(s) I interacted with, not the business. If you want to keep them, make sure there is a sign on the jar that says "Extra money to business owner", "Voluntary overcharge" or "Fund to continue to underpay workers" instead of "Tips".

      That was MY money I was trying to give your employee directly, if you take it you are stealing from ME before it gets to who I gave it to. It's outright theft, your friend

      • by fermion ( 181285 )
        Tipping is complex and generally not the solution to a livable wage. And the money seldom goes to where people think. In any restaurant all the staff has to share the tips. In a small business, cash tips are there to provide everyone with a bit spending money.

        Some are attached to tips as they think it gives them rights. Like if the staff complains of me molesting them then they wonâ(TM)t get a tip.

        I donâ(TM)t like tips. I like cultures where the staff is paid and tips, if any, are just a nomin

        • Yes, the tips are shared among the people I interacted with - The wait staff, the cook who made my food, the bartender who poured my drink, the busboy and dishwasher that cleaned up after me.

          In no condition, in no way, in no form is the owner entitled to tips. The owner is the only one who can guarantee their own profit by setting the prices, the employees are at the mercy of the employer and the customer for their own money. When the owner steals it, there is no excuse. It is outright theft, and they shoul

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Employers tend to be in the wrong with tips in the spirit of the law, it not legally, which is why so many give tips in cash directly to the person. One friend kept all tips, as the business owner, for herself as her staff were paid minimum wage. Legal, but customers likely thought they were tipping the grunts.

      What a scummy practice and scummy person...

  • Cash tips (Score:5, Interesting)

    by VeryFluffyBunny ( 5037285 ) on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @02:18PM (#63111028)
    There's no way that an electronic tipping via a service that is owned & administered by employers isn't going to be abused. The only way you can be reasonably sure that 100% of a tip is going to the person you're giving it to is to discreetly hand it to them in cash. I doubt there's many employees in the world who haven't suffered wage theft of some kind.
  • The drive up, toss the box on the porch, snap a photo, hop back in their vehicle, and drive off.

    • by laxguy ( 1179231 )

      everyone talking about wage theft and big evil corporations and im left wondering, who tf is tipping their delivery drivers? ive never even seen mine and assumed it was someone different on any given day.

  • Always tip using cash. That way you know exactly who is getting the money. And if they don't report ( some of ) it as income, that's their business.
    • "And if they don't report ( some of ) it as income, that's their business."

      It's also my business, because they are not paying taxes on it and it's not going into Social Security etc. I know people who made well over $10/hr 20 years ago at mediocre restaurants. For many waiters it's not the taxes that are their income problem, it's poor spending habits. Not reporting tips is simply a way to dodge taxes because "everybody's doing it"; it's normalized in their culture. No one should have to rely on "tips"

      • by xanthos ( 73578 )
        You are both correct.

        It should be left up to the individual to decide if they want to report it or not.

        But, only if they understand that consequences of those actions. If you don't declare it, and don't pay taxes, especially the FICA/Social Security tax, then don't expect to get a monthly check from the gov't when you get old. (Granted there are a bunch of wealthy f*cktards that want to get rid of that safety net so who knows if it will be there even if you do pay in)
  • I try to give cash directly to the person who earned it. Too many companies grab some or all for "processing fees". If the server/driver never sees the money, they won't miss it as much. Give cash, then it is just between them and what they wish to tell the IRS.
  • Seems to me this warrants a criminal investigation ending with prison time for those responsible. No corporation will do the right thing until those running it are deprived of their freedom for crimes.

Understanding is always the understanding of a smaller problem in relation to a bigger problem. -- P.D. Ouspensky

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