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Transportation United States Network Power

Mercedes-Benz Will Build a $1 Billion EV Fast-Charging Network In the US (arstechnica.com) 88

Posted by BeauHD from the what-to-expect dept.
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: On Thursday, Mercedes-Benz announced that it is entering the DC fast-charging arena for electric vehicles. The German automaker is in the midst of an electrification push and a plan to be carbon-neutral by 2039, and it evidently doesn't believe that the current charging infrastructure is as good as its new EVs, so it's doing something about the situation. Mercedes says it plans to deploy more than 10,000 fast chargers around the world, starting in North America. The new network is separate from and independent of Ionity, the European fast-charging network backed by Mercedes, BMW, Ford, and Volkswagen. Here in the US, Mercedes is partnering with the charging company ChargePoint and MN8 Energy, a solar and battery-storage company. Together, they will deploy more than 2,500 DC fast chargers at more than 400 sites around the US by 2027.

The chargers will feature plug-and-charge compatibility and won't be restricted to Mercedes' EVs. Mercedes also says the locations and surroundings will be carefully chosen -- all too often, banks of DC chargers are located in desolate and lonely corners of mall parking lots that can make charging at night a stressful experience for some drivers. So the OEM plans to build the chargers "with food outlets and restrooms situated nearby." It also says there will be surveillance cameras and other security in place to provide "a safe and secure charging environment." Expect a minimum of four DC chargers at each hub, similar to an Electrify America charging location. But some hubs will have as many as 12 chargers, and there are plans for as many as 30 in some locations. The hubs will use ChargePoint's modular Express Plus system, which is capable of up to 500 kW per charging port, although Mercedes says that chargers will be "up to 350 kW" in power. And load management will ensure that if multiple EVs are charging at the same time, one charger doesn't end up throttling the rest.

In keeping with the company's 2039 sustainability goals, the electricity it uses will come from green energy suppliers or come with renewable energy certificates. Some hubs will use solar to power the lighting and security cameras. None of this will be particularly cheap. In fact, the initiative will cost more than $1.1 billion (1 billion euro) over the next six or seven years, with the costs split evenly between Mercedes and MN8 Energy. And this is just the start -- plans for more charger deployment in Europe and China will be announced in the future.
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Mercedes-Benz Will Build a $1 Billion EV Fast-Charging Network In the US More

Mercedes-Benz Will Build a $1 Billion EV Fast-Charging Network In the US

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  • Everything but a roof! (Score:3)

    by Fly Swatter ( 30498 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @07:08PM (#63183432) Homepage
    Provide working charging, clean area, safety cameras, bathrooms, even dining... But everyone has to get out in the rain and snow. Good job.

    • Re:Everything but a roof! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by JaredOfEuropa ( 526365 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @07:26PM (#63183464) Journal
      I rather like what Shell is doing with their Recharge stations: fast chargers right on the forecourt, with a roof, and coffee, snacks and restrooms nearby in the shop. In much of Europe, most fast charging is on highways (Tesla's network being the exception), with chargers near - but not on - the forecourt of regular gas stations, and getting a coffee means trudging through rain (and often mud) to get to the gas station. Too bad the Shell chargers are a bit anemic: typically 70-100kW, whereas other networks like Fastned typically offer 175-350kW chargers.

      • The chargers will feature plug-and-charge compatibility and won't be restricted to Mercedes' EVs. Mercedes also says the locations and surroundings will be carefully chosen -- all too often, banks of DC chargers are located in desolate and lonely corners of mall parking lots that can make charging at night a stressful experience for some drivers. So the OEM plans to build the chargers "with food outlets and restrooms situated nearby."

        I've got an idea...they need to build all of these EV charging stations

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by Monoman ( 8745 )

          Why choose? Some Buc-ees already have Tesla superchargers.

          It will get ugly if there are multiple charger types at places like Buc-ees but the car companies are probably too stubborn to use Tesla's tech.

    • Re:Everything but a roof! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jacks smirking reven ( 909048 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @07:36PM (#63183472)

      This will change in time, right now EV chargers are the second class citizens at the gas station, eventually that will flip and the chargers will be under cover

      • Under Cover (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Firethorn ( 177587 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:08PM (#63183678) Homepage Journal

        Hell be green about it: I'm an advocate for solar carports and parking lot covers.

        It's actually quite simple: Standard solar panels are strong enough to act as roofing structures, with only support to hold them in place necessary. While they're not quite suited for being waterproof enough for actual roofs, if the only object is to keep most of the sun and rain off, they work excellently.

        As a bonus, because you're installing solar, the whole structure(you're elevating it to keep the panels out of the car's way, right?), may be tax deductible or worth a tax credit or such.

        So you get two structures for the cost of one - a solar install that ALSO shades cars. Bonus!

        The main reason why gas pumps are generally under cover is two fold:
        1. Protect the expensive gas pumps
        2. Make the lives of the customers(or employees in a couple states) who pump the gas a little bit easier. And by that I mean that if you DON'T shade them, you probably will see your customers go elsewhere.

        If all you're doing with EV charging stations is plugging the car in then going into the store, then there's less incentive to cover them.

        That being said, I think that putting charging stations in with "convenience" stores is a bit of a mistake. Even with fast chargers, you're looking at ~30 minutes for a good charge for something like the next leg of your highway trip. That's a bit long to be spending in your typical convenience store.

        Now, something like a Flying J, which expands "convenience" quite a lot because they're more "truck station", might work better. They generally have a buffet or sit down restaurant, sometimes an arcade, a TV viewing room, showers, etc... Somewhere where you can spend half an hour and actually sit and eat your food.

        I always figured that restaurants were better spots to put charging stations than gas stations or convenience stores. The longer dwell time makes all the difference.

        Thoughts:
        Convenience store: Too little time spent here for charging to make sense
        Restaurant: About right.
        Your work: Plenty of time spent here for a full charge even with a slow charger.
        Someplace like an auto supply store, hairdressers, tire shop, etc: Don't visit often enough for it to be a great choice.
        Car dealership: I'd have some chargers here to demonstrate EVs for sale, to charge up customer's vehicles that are in for service, employees, and whatnot. But as a regular customer stop? Nope.
        Walmart, grocery stores, home supply stores, etc... It's really easy to spend 30 minutes+ in one of these, so customer chargers would work great.
        Movie theaters: Something of a dark horse, might work well, might not. 2 hours for a movie(or even 90 minutes) makes for a great distraction while charging. But edging on too long.
        Malls: Another excellent opportunity. Unless you're making a dedicated trip to a specific store for something fast, you're likely to be there long enough for a charge. If nothing else, a food court satisfies the "can eat there restaurant" thing.

        • Are you listening, Sonic?

          • Are you listening, Sonic?

            Nah...they need to do them all as Buc-ee's like they have in TX.

            Talk about a place to shop and get stuff to eat...yum.

        • The convenience store footprint is actually pretty good - you get somewhere to get coffee / beverage / snacks, a restroom, and a bit of asphalt for your car to sit on while it charges.

          If you aren't buying stuff or relieving yourself, feel free to have a stretch outside, or watch some streaming media on your phone / tablet / car infotainment system while you charge. And, because EV, the heat / AC still work when charging.

          I'd rather have charging at a convenience store than all the way across a 20 acre parki

          • It may be that I view things a bit different.

            I'm not a fan of coffee or the snack selection at convenience stores. Most of the ones in my area have zero seating, so you'd be stuck in your car. Yes, I know, infotainment system, but at this point in my life I'm a bit more creaky than I was when I was young, and if I'm on a long trip I don't want to be in my car if I don't have to. Even just a different seat helps change things up.

            I'm not much for streaming media on my phone either, hardly watch TV or movie

    • Re:Everything but a roof! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by superdave80 ( 1226592 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @07:58PM (#63183508)
      As a recent EV owner, I'm kind of baffled by this lack of overhead coverage at charging stations as well. It's like whoever has been designing/installing these things has never been to a gas station, where about 90% of them have a roof over the pumps. It's weird.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by necro81 ( 917438 )

        It's like whoever has been designing/installing these things has never been to a gas station, where about 90% of them have a roof over the pumps. It's weird.

        The roof is there as an out-of-the-rain convenience, sure, but it also houses the fire suppression system [youtube.com]. EV chargers don't have similar requirements.

        I agree that it makes for a more pleasant experience to have a roof/overhang. Those are pretty substantial structures though, in the sense that they need to be designed and engineered to withstand

        • Plus, most of the charging stations are not built on property the charging network owns - they are built on pre-existing parking lots and such with an agreement from the property owner. Getting the property owner to do anything beyond the electrical is a "good luck with that" proposition.

    • Re:Everything but a roof! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:01PM (#63183770) Homepage Journal

      You don't have to stand there holding the charger while it works. Plug in and leave. So there is less need for cover.

      It would be nice, but they probably see it as a way to make you go wait in the shopping area.

      • At least in the US, the vast majority of EV chargers are built in pre-existing parking lots that the EV charging network doesn't own.

        I can't imagine that Target (for example) is going to go install and maintain a bunch of structures in their parking lots for ChargePoint / Electrify America / Tesla if they aren't required to. And I don't have a problem believing that the charging network would want to pay a bunch of extra money building and maintaining a roof over their weather-proof chargers if they aren't

    • Right, because nobody ever has to get out in the rain and snow to refuel their non-EV cars.

      Counterpoint: I never have to get out in the rain and snow to charge my EV unless I'm on a road trip, because I charge in my garage overnight regardless of the amount of snow and ice. You have gas pumps in your garage to do the same?

  • Didn't GM and Ford get the same thing, times 5, done for one-fifth of the cost by paying Congresscritters to funnel taxpayer funds into this?

  • free idea: phys eject for the charging plug/cable (Score:5, Interesting)

    by TheGratefulNet ( 143330 ) on Thursday January 05, 2023 @08:12PM (#63183538)

    here's the deal; its been mentioned in the summary but its worth a thread of its own.

    I own a model 3 tesla and when I was on the forum (a few years ago), I remember a thread where a woman was truly concerned about charging in an unknown location late at nite. I fully understand that; you are stuck there for 20 minutes or more and if its late at night, you may be the only one there. IT IS UNSAFE!

    what would solve this, at least going a long way: ejectable charge ports. not hard to do, just some engineering. magnetic would even work, but solenoid (which is still magnetic..) is also a workable method. FROM INSIDE YOUR CAR, it would be so cool to just hit the 'emergency depart' button and have any connected charging cables disconnect so you can get out of there, fast.

    not kidding. think about it. this is not liquid gas. ejecting an electrical plug is not unsafe. its just a cost issue.

    I used to work in the car industry and tbh, I never was able to convince people in my companies to listen to new ideas like this. but I offer this so that someone who reads this MAY be able to talk their boss into giving this some serious thought.

    first company that does this and someone's life is saved, will get some serious payback in PR value.

    again, this is not gas, eject a power plug and worst that happens is that someone has to pick it up next time when they charge their car.

    I really hope some vendor runs with this idea. someday.

    • How many incidents has there actually been compared to how much fear mongering is this?

      • there's no fear mongering that I'm aware of. no one seems to care about the safety issue. I raised it and as a car owner who sits at a supercharger for 30 minutes or more, often enough, I'm fully aware of how much of a sitting duck you are and if some strange person wants to make trouble, you can't just pull away and leave. you MUST leave the car and unhook the charge cable before you can drive off.

        you dont think that's a safety issue? even with gas cars, you CAN just drive off. I did it when I was rea

        • Okay, you tested driving off with gasoline filling. Which probably left a hazardous situation at the gas station, with gasoline possibly spewing everywhere. I'm not sure that the automatic stops would function well in that case.

          Has anybody actually tested what happens if you try to drive off with the charging cable still in place?
          Do they actually have an interlock that disables your vehicle until it is unplugged? Or would the car move - and some part of the cable or connection would eventually rip off if

          • the snap nozzle is designed to fail gracefully. I was not the first to have this happen. and gas did not spew all over. I dont remember any coming out (this was over 40 years ago; I said I was just learning to drive. the story, if you have to have it: growing up in NJ, they insist that they fill your car, so you're not even given the option of self-serve. you give the credit card to the guy, he starts to fill you up and he lets you know when you're done. often its a tap on the car roof. well, you can

          • Have not tested it, but I was told that the car will not move when the cable is plugged in. Which kakes sense, as when charging overnight at home, I would not like to have the plug ripped violently out if I forgot that it was plugged in. Then again, I live in a first world country where crime is not a huge concern.

            • Even though Tesla is the 800lb gorilla, there's too many EV makers and software revisions to treat this as a universal truth. It probably comes down to your individual EV.

      • Even removing fear factor, it's a very good engineering idea to automated the ejection and cable collection at the end of the charging. There is no reason for the user to have to go back outside. An ejection and recollection system are not going to be a determining factor in the cost of the charging base (which is expensive for other reasons), while adding a lot of convenience when charging in adverse weather. It also visibly signals the station as free while avoiding users to touch each other's car if a ch

        • It would also allow self driving EVs to unhook themselves and go and park somewhere else, freeing up the charging station for the next user.

      • How many incidents has there actually been compared to how much fear mongering is this?

        In a lot of cities...especially older urban ones, you're seeing lots of robberies and car jackings happening at gas stations.

        Here's one in Philly with armed guards [youtube.com]

    • Might not be a big deal because of the spread of cell phones and cameras. IE if anybody pulls stuff with you at a charging station, they're likely on multiple cameras. Teslas themselves record. There's probably a camera watching the charging stations(expensive vandalism target), etc... You're locking in your car, so if they're not fast enough, 911 means police are on their way. Etc...

      • what if the 'person' pulling stuff is, perhaps, a bear?

        one of the car companies (that makes electric trucks) wants to locate chargers out in the middle of nowhere (camping theme, I guess). and so the bear analogy is not unrealistic.

        but even if its 'just' a human attacker, you think getting the attack on video is of any solace to the person who got attacked?

        I dont mean to insult you, but you are not thinking this thru. I dont see why anyone would object to a fast disconnect on the charge cable so you can g

        • what if the 'person' pulling stuff is, perhaps, a bear?

          Why would it? Bears are generally after food, and there's limits to what they'll do to get it. You're generally safe in your car until the bear leaves.

          but even if its 'just' a human attacker, you think getting the attack on video is of any solace to the person who got attacked?

          Actually, it isn't that I'm not thinking this through, it's that I've thought this through further than you. Basically, we have a potential attacker. If said attacker knows that they're going to be recorded committing their crime, that means that they're more likely to be identified, and thus go to jail and all that. Most potential attackers don't want t

    • If it is unsafe fix your city.

    • What happens if they simply made it so you could just drive off with it plugged in? Ejection be damned and the line just snaps off (of course you look like a fool on the road). People do that at gas stations all the time. Also, they need to have the plug robotic so you don't have to get out of the car even to plug it in.

    • first company that does this and someone's life is saved, will get some serious payback in PR value.

      Before we point to lives being saved can you point to lives being lost? I know I'm a privileged westerner but generally the people here don't go around raping and killing women charging their Teslas. They aren't as easy targets as you may think. If you're in your car you have a somewhat protective bubble. Locking the doors alone affords you enough time to call the police.

      Honestly while I won't go so far as to say it sounds like a solution looking for a problem, it definitely does sound like a solution for a

    • I prefer they install loads of HD cameras with microphones and semi automatic tasers . Driver in distress? Automated voice says: "please get into your car / remain in your car" then tasers the hell out of all perpetrators. And sends the police to scoop them up.

    • Lock the doors while charging.

      If someone comes up and starts fucking with your car, dial 911 using the in-car telephone integration. Plus, security cameras; and chargers usually placed in higher traffic areas (store parking lots, convenience stores that also have fuel pumps, etc.)

      Been driving an EV since 2018 and have literally never felt unsafe at any charger I've used anywhere in the Pacific Northwest, upper midwest, and mid-Atlantic regions of North America. Or anywhere in between.

      • obviously you have not seen parking lots with teslas and their rear triangle glass broken. glass all over the pavement and the rear seats flipped down for a look-see by the thieves.

        would I really trust my life to the glass that is so easily broken from the outside, by even just minimally skilled badguys?

        so funny to hear people say 'just call for help' or 'record it'. yeah. that does a lot of good after you've been attacked.

        what world do some of you live in? by the replies like this, its either just pure

        • I feel sorry for you that apparently you live in a place where you fear for your life just sitting in your car.

          Are you really saying that the following sequence is a thing that happens at all, if not extremely rarely?

          1. notice Tesla Model 3
          2. notice someone sitting in the Model 3
          3. go up to the model 3 anyway, and smash the rear quarter glass
          4. reach through the broken window to fold the rear seat down while apparently the person in the car does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, including grabbing the attacker's hand and

  • How to pay? (Score:5, Funny)

    by LostMyBeaver ( 1226054 ) on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:00AM (#63183880)
    Here in Norway, I have 9 apps for charging and regularly use websites for other charging networks.

    This is even worse than parking apps.

      I actually bought a new phone because a 64GB iphone couldn't hold all the parking apps, charging apps.

    The U.S. will probably need 10 times as many.

    • I've made several thousand mile plus road trips and I don't use any Apps for charging, I just plug into the SuperCharger.

    • In the US you only need one app: PlugShare. It has all the charging stations for all the charging networks in one place, and supports trip planning and routing. There is no need for any other app.

      • Some (at least half) of public chargers require you to download their app to start the charging and pay for it.

  • Are plugs and charging protocols standardized? (Score:3)

    by elcor ( 4519045 ) on Friday January 06, 2023 @06:45AM (#63184296)
    I saw that tesla charging ports looked different than fords.
    • For the US, yes. You can see the plug types here: https://interchargers.com/plug... [interchargers.com].
      Some chargers will have several types (I have seen chargers with 3 cables/plugs in Europe).

    • I also saw that Tesla has plug [tesla.com] adapters [tesla.com] available, with the most standard one in North America coming with the car when I bought one (J1772) [tesla.com].

      Basically, no matter what electrical outlet you find unless it's some crazy industrial 3-phase power, there's an adapter. And there are standards, but not a ubiquitous one. Yet.

      • Not exactly. This is true for AC charging, but DC fast charging is still split between 3 standards which are not interoperable (Tesla, Nissan/Chademo, and CCS aka "the worldwide standard")
        • Actually I think Tesla has fast charging adapters for the other standards.

        • I linked the CCS adapter in the post you replied to. Well done.

          There was also a CHAdeMO adapter at one point, but that's a dead standard that not even Nissan ships any more.

  • 2,500 DC fast chargers....that''s just a drop in a bucket Works out to avg. of 6 chargers per site. In a big city, can you imagine the waiting line ? Most people can't even afford an EV. Well, it's gas and go go go w/o waiting for me.
    • 2500 is for one supplier. There will be competing suppliers, so the number will be a lot higher. Also, if the demand increases, more will be buit.
      Where I live, this used to be a problem, but with 80% of all new cars being pure EV, there are chargers pretty much everywhere. There may be queues on busy days/times though.

      • There may be queues on busy days/times though.

        That's not gonna work in the US.

        We don't have to wait in lines for gas....it isn't going to be tolerated for EV charging either.

        • Funny, I distinctly remember having to wait in line at fuel stations multiple times when I still bought fuel.

          Seems like you're full of crap on that.

          Meanwhile, I never have to wait in line to charge in my garage. I pull in, plug in, and walk into my house.

          • Funny, I distinctly remember having to wait in line at fuel stations multiple times when I still bought fuel.

            Curious, what part of the US are you in?

            I've almost never had this problem...the sole exception being when everyone is gassing up their cars with an impending hurricane coming at you here...

            Meanwhile, I never have to wait in line to charge in my garage. I pull in, plug in, and walk into my house.

            That's nice you have that convenience....but many people live in apartments, with no such overnight hom

            • Okay, on apartment charging access. I figure that it's simple enough. Once EV penetration reaches a certain amount, what will happen is that EV chargers will become a feature, and apartment owners will start installing them in order to attract better renters. It is something of a chicken-egg problem though.

              If they lack off-street parking, well, the chargers can be installed along the street. They may have to pay for the privilege to be able to hook up to a number of chargers at reasonable rates, as thei

    • This is like bitching that Shell is only installing X pumps in a city, while ignoring all other oil companies.

  • To a standard hydrocarbon vehicle, fast is 5 minutes. Slow is 10 which usually happens when there's something wrong with the pump. Until a 100% charge in 5 minutes is possible, don't waste my time.

    • Why do you give a shit how long it takes to charge your car, when it's going to be sitting in your garage / driveway overnight?

      I'll take my grand total of 0 minutes spent "refuelling" my car over the last 6 months against however many 5-minute stops you make for fuel.

  • Only your large, heavy, power-hungry car is green! Not a dainty 1 HP Bike.

    • Your 1 HP bike can be charged with a standard outlet using a charger you keep in a backpack or such.

      It takes dedicated infrastructure to charge an EV quickly enough to really matter.

      Now, agitate enough and you might see something. But to my knowledge, bike chargers are even less standardized than EV chargers, as in, they need different voltages and plugs and all that. So it'd be tough to make something universal.

  • 1. Unless MB has stations that will service all EVs regardless of plugs and
    3. There is a power grid to support these recharging stations
    3. All stations are super-chargers

    EVs will work if there is a consistent and continual power grid (local electric companies or local generators or something else). Hydrogen Fuel Cells powering EV motors is the best bet right now (plus it doesn't impact every locale's power grip).
    IMHO
  • I'm all for any new charging stations, but 10,000 worldwide is pretty much nothing. That's ten in Beverly Hills, five in the Pacific Palisades... in other words, not a dent.

    I take a class in North Hollywood, and there's one single public charging station within a mile. And it's broken half the time because users stretch out the cable... why? I don't know. Maybe they can't figure out how to park right next to it? Maybe it's badly designed? Maybe vandalism? No idea. But if there were a dozen, it wouldn't m

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