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United States The Military

US Military Shoots Down Fourth Flying Object Near Michigan (cnn.com) 245

The U.S. military shot down another high-altitude object Sunday, reports CNN — this one flying near Michigan.

"The operation marks the third day in a row that an unidentified object was shot down over North American airspace." Democratic Rep. Elissa Slotkin of Michigan said Sunday that the operation to down the object over Lake Huron was carried out by pilots from the U.S. Air Force and the National Guard.... The object was flying at 20,000 feet over Michigan's Upper Peninsula and was about to go over Lake Huron when it was neutralized, a senior administration official told CNN on Sunday.

The object was "octagonal" with strings hanging off and no discernable payload, according to the official and another source briefed on the matter. While the U.S. has no indication that the object had surveillance capabilities, that has not been ruled out yet.

Why have so many flying objects been spotted in the last week? The Washington Post says the Chinese spy balloon and subsequently-spotted objects "have changed how analysts receive and interpret information from radars and sensors, a U.S. official said Saturday." The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said that sensory equipment absorbs a lot of raw data, and filters are used so humans and machines can make sense of what is collected. But that process always runs the risk of leaving out something important, the official said.

"We basically opened the filters," the official added, much like a car buyer unchecking boxes on a website to broaden the parameters of what can be searched. That change does not yet fully answer what is going on, the official cautioned, and whether stepping back to look at more data is yielding more hits — or if these latest incursions are part of a more deliberate action by an unknown country or adversary....

The official said the current U.S. assessment is the objects are not military threats.

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US Military Shoots Down Fourth Flying Object Near Michigan

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  • ...doesn't make it aliens.
    • It's an illegal penetration test.

      Try to figure out your enemy and response times. Gather some additional data if possible.

      Hope that debris kills someone so that the US military can be blamed.

      • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @08:15PM (#63288117) Homepage Journal

        Or we're just shooting down some random shit. The spy balloon that started this whole thing off was flying at over 60,000 feet and had a huge (for a balloon) payload. The object shot down over Alaska was at 40,000 feet, and while the payload was not described the balloon was described as "much smaller" than the spy balloon. The object shot down over Lake Huron was flying at only 20,000 feet, and had no payload.

        These *could* be enormously different models of balloon used in the Chinese balloon program for different purposes. Or it could be three different sets of balloons launched by different people for different purposes. There are even hobbyists who fly high altitude balloons. There's FAA rules that are supposed to prevent them from being a hazard to aviators, but nothing really stops anyone from underinflating a weather balloon so it doesn't burst and launching it into the stratosphere.

        Even if all these balloons *are* all part of the Chinese spy program, there's bound to be random stuff up there. If we throw our filters wide open and start shooting down everything we can't identify, we may find ourselves pretty busy.

        • I could see actors probing US defenses, seeing how we respond, and otherwise just being a pest.

          Balloons I have to imagine are fairly cheap and outsized US response will start adding up.

          I could see 10,000 balloons entering our airspace. Not significant enough to go to war over, but I do chuckle that such an basic technology is causing so much havoc here.

          • by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @10:09PM (#63288361)
            Globally around a thousand weather sites launch two balloons a day, every day. That means 2,000 new objects floating around up there being added every day. Since Biden started the trend of popping balloons (which I still think is pretty funny :-), I expect there'll be a frenzy of it over the next few weeks until everyone gets bored and moves on to the next distraction.
            • I would have expected "legitimate" balloon users to tell whoever that they have done so and say what their expected flight plan is. I am assuming that there is a "whoever" - there might not be such a body in which case time to create one.

              • by arglebargle_xiv ( 2212710 ) on Monday February 13, 2023 @01:43AM (#63288641)
                Flight plan for a weather balloon? It goes up from this location twice a day, that's the flight plan. Specifically, it goes up and sends telemetry until it stops sending telemetry, usually an hour or tqo. There are hobbyist groups akin to trainspotters who drive around trying to locate the downed balloons via radio direction finding and return them, or at least the payload packages, for reuse, but there's no registry of what's where. In the US, see FAA Part 101.1 for the details on keeping them from being a hazard to air traffic.
                • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                  by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  Well it's not quite that simple. The balloon operator has to take care to track the balloon and inform Air Traffic Control of both the expected area it will operate in, and if tracking suggests that it is going somewhere else.

                  The tracking that they use tends to just be the signal strength of the telemetry, and maybe some direction finding. The risks are minimal anyway. The sky is big and collisions are only likely along frequented routes and areas, like around airports. A balloon launched well away from kno

                • Do they do weird kinky shit with the huge popped latex balloon? I heard some do. :-)

                  Not that there's anything wrong with that. Don't kink shame.

          • It would be taken as an act of war.

        • by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @09:19PM (#63288287)

          A UW atmospheric sciences professor used a NOAA model to backtrace [blogspot.com] the probable origins of these balloons. One thing I found interesting (that I don't believe he noted) - while the origins of all "balloons" do seem to be either China or Russia, the balloon shot down near Prudhoe Bay looks like it could arguably have been a Finnish balloon used for spying on the Russians!

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Response times for what? An invasion by a squadron of baloons? Ninety-nine "red" baloons, hehe.

        Chinese are claiming this is a weather baloon blown off course. Now normally if CCP announced that the sky is blue I'd look out the window to check that it hasn't turned purple, but in this case I'm inclined to believe them. Simply because from their point of view sending this baloon makes no sense at all. It doesn't get them any more intel than the all their satellites as about a million people here have already

      • Which cretin marked this troll? Very valid points, succinctly put. This is a very cheap way to aggressively gather operational information close to real combat conditions.

      • by mpercy ( 1085347 ) on Monday February 13, 2023 @10:08AM (#63289269)

        Guarantee: if a US “weather balloon” drifted over any part of China, it would be shot down as soon as the planes could get off the ground. Indeed, China would probably assume we had sent a spy drone and do everything they possibly could to preserve the payload rather than just blast it. But it would be coming down one way or another, and lickety split.

        Despite what has been said about imagery from satellites vs balloons (not sure I believe that satellites produce as-good-or-better imagery), satellites cannot effectively measure or intercept a lot of EM/RF signals (where loss is an R^2) effect but that balloon could. The jet stream provides free propulsion basically directly over a number of key US military installations providing for signals intelligence (radar, cell phones, radios, etc.) and hi-res photography with very long loiter time relative to satellites.

        Sending an “innocuous” “weather balloon” through the NORAD airspace would be high up on the list of ways I would use to try to gather radar signals intelligence. A simple small thermite charge in certain pieces of equipment triggered at say 10kft altitude would provide mission deniability. Plus, you’d get the whole benefit of being about to complain about your “civilian weather experiments” being shot down by the warmongering US and play that card for all it’s worth.

        Even a huge balloon can have a very low radar cross section, and even virtually zero depending on the material used to make it. The payload for signals intelligence can be made quite small (often coming in a roll-on/roll-off package), and inexpensive (for a nation-state) so that it can be destroyed with on-board munitions if/when needed to obfuscate the purpose of the equipment. Furthermore, by moving with the wind, NORAD radars would tend to ignore the low-speed returns as moving target indicator algorithms tend to skew toward ignoring returns that are too-slow and especially with velocities equal to wind-speed, and so this balloon would tend to not spike any radars scanning for ICBMs and the like.

        As for being visible, it leverages the “hiding in plain sight” mechanism. It looks like weather balloon, so people seeing it will either report it as a UFO or as a weather balloon. In the event that it does cause some consternation in the spied-upon nation, the aforementioned munitions will provide a level of cover “The missile they used to shoot down our much-maligned scientific experiment destroyed all the equipment beyond recognition. How dare they claim it was spy equipment!”

        And finally, the trajectory the balloon traveled went directly over or very close to a number of US anti-ICBM radars and important military sites. COBRA DANE is on Shemya, Aleutian Islands, Alaska. JBER, Alaska has a number of domestic and foreign threat radars and training operations. AN/FPS-120 PAVE PAWS is in Clear, Alaska. AN/FPQ-16 PARCS is in North Dakota. AN/FPS-85 is at Eglin AFB, Florida. All of these systems have had modernization programs updating them over the last 20-30 years from their cold war configurations, and getting signals-intelligence from them could be important to China.

        OTOH, the damn thing could very well have been nothing more than a weather balloon that China lost and was too proud to admit the error. Perhaps they saw the opportunity to let it float just to see what Biden might do.

        But Ill repeat what I said before. If the US lost a “weather balloon” that floated over China, it would be destroyed as soon as the planes could launch.

    • by sjames ( 1099 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @10:24PM (#63288391) Homepage Journal

      Damned illegal aliens! Waiting for a presidential candidate to tell us he's going to build a dome and make Alpha Centauri pay for it...

    • Radar signals analysis gobbles up huge amounts of memory. So it is filtered and compressed - much like an MP3 song or track. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]. Lots of FFT, and top quality NVRAM sticks, so a chance to get rich off elbay. There is negligible difference in looking for rain and storm cells, or if you tweak it slightly, birds or aircraft. Maybe it is to check out ski fields. Sanctions mean Russians can't holiday in the Alps or Colorado. If they must pl
  • by cuda13579 ( 1060440 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @07:57PM (#63288087)

    Another AIM-9X?! It was at 20,000 feet this time...so don't tell me that it was "too high" to use a cannon.

    • Another AIM-9X?! It was at 20,000 feet this time...so don't tell me that it was "too high" to use a cannon.

      It *was* too high for a Cannon, but an HP or Epson probably would have worked. :-)

      Actually, someone mentioned on an earlier related thread that guns might not be as immediately effective on a balloon like this as people might think. Don't know if anyone has any cite-able info on that though.

      I did note earlier that AIM 9X Sidewinders are kinda expensive for this sort of thing at about $400k a pop.

      • Since when has any part of the US military worried about cost? Or even needed to?
        • Since when has any part of the US military worried about cost? Or even needed to?

          Just saying maybe we should bill China for those missiles. :-)
          Maybe their game is to get us to deplete our inventory, one balloon and missile at a time.

        • I mean...the taxpayers that ultimately pay for it, have a bit of an interest in the cost.
          No...we're not all enamored with the amount of money that goes to the military...or the gleeful waste.

        • Since when has any part of the US military worried about cost? Or even needed to?

          Massive military spending is what keeps the US economy going. I'm sure that many jobs will be created from the ongoing effort to rid US airspace of unidentified balloons and stuff. Not to mention the yachts that US industrialists will be able to afford. Your tax dollars at work! Plus the massive pile of debt that keeps getting bigger and bigger...

      • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

        Actually, someone mentioned on an earlier related thread that guns might not be as immediately effective on a balloon like this as people might think. Don't know if anyone has any cite-able info on that though.

        No real need to cite, the ballons are like cling wrap and the helium within them is about the same pressure as the atmosphere, so you could shoot them up a fair bit and they can just keep ambling on.

        I did note earlier that AIM 9X Sidewinders are kinda expensive for this sort of thing at about $400k a pop.

        Don't forget, F22 cost per flight hours (I think about $85K), then there is the two support F15s, and the KC tanker - so yeah, pretty costly to bring down a cheap balloon.

        I think this is where a laser would really work well.

        • Pilots have to log a certain amount of flight and weapons time on their craft, which these flights count towards.

          • by MrKaos ( 858439 )

            Pilots have to log a certain amount of flight and weapons time on their craft, which these flights count towards.

            Does that make it cost any less? Spend 2 million to shoot down a $100K balloon? Sounds like asymetric warfare to me.

            The air force could always mount lasers on the fighter jets PEW PEW!!!

      • I head the same thing about cannons vs. balloons. I think it comes from this story [yahoo.com]. Does not make much sense to me, but I have never tried it myself ...
    • Another AIM-9X?! It was at 20,000 feet this time...so don't tell me that it was "too high" to use a cannon.

      Can you even shoot guns at stationary targets? Seems like there would be a very small window of time where bullets would be in range and you were not dangerously close to the thing you were shooting at.

  • by TranquilVoid ( 2444228 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @08:09PM (#63288105)

    "We basically opened the filters," the official added, much like a car buyer unchecking boxes on a website to broaden the parameters of what can be searched.

    A car analogy, now I understand.

  • It's pretty amusing to me, that he first object they let drift across the entire US, I posted the exact same sentiment in my subject - no way should any object at size and significant altitude be allowed to drift across the whole US, weather balloon or not.

    Not only was that downmodded into oblivion but I received quite a few responses stating various reasons why of course it was the right thing to do to just let it drift wherever for any of a thousand stupid reasons.

    Well it looks like the U.S. agreed with m

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 )

      Well it looks like the U.S. agreed with me because every single object after that has been shot down, over land or inland lake, upon entering U.S. airspace.

      Nope difference at all, except (at least) that the first balloon was at 60k feet, and not a danger to any air traffic, while the next two were at 40k and 20k feet respectively and would easily be more so if they descended.

      [Be sure to look straight into the mirror when telling those losers to suck it. And no more coffee for you.]

    • > I was proven right. IN YO FACE LOSERS.

      "The balloon's first reporting sighting was on February 1, 2023, when civilians in a commercial airliner spotted it. On the same day, former Billings Gazette editor Chase Doak spotted the object above Billings, Montana, after seeing reports that the airspace around Billings was closed." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

      What has followed seems like damage control taking on a life of its own.

      Is it a good idea to shot them all down, should that have been the policy

      • The explanation in this article is an admission that nobody knew these things were there until a civilian saw it and asked wtf it was.
        • > The explanation in this article is an admission that nobody knew these things were there until a civilian saw it and asked wtf it was.

          There's lots of interesting stuff in the Wikipedia link. When I posted it, I'd only read the bit about how the current incident started.

          Reading more of the link now, I noticed this bit "In the two years preceding the 2023 incident, U.S. officials had identified some of the incursions as Chinese spy balloons.[36][37] The commander of the United States Northern Command (US

    • P.P.S. not reading further responses again because why would I want to read a bunch of words from people who were never right to begin with?

      Because you're massively insecure.

  • Noise (Score:5, Interesting)

    by felixrising ( 1135205 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @09:04PM (#63288261)
    Or someone is deliberately increasing noise levels, to hide the signal that would otherwise have been detected a long time ago... so China(?) releases stacks of random flying baloons that aren't of any consequence, to hide the actual balloon that has something worthy of detection...
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It will be interesting to see if the numbers go down over time. Well, it will lead to more speculation at least. Did China stop trying this method of spying? Are weather balloon users fed up of having their equipment shot down? Are scientists now more careful to check where their balloons are likely to go?

      It seems like an odd way of gathering intelligence. Even commercial operators can pick up cell phone signals from space, and you can be sure that money-is-no-object military gear is better than that.

  • by msauve ( 701917 )
    So, they shot down a Chinese candle lantern.
  • I wonder if they were saying "ballon ball"...

    https://youtu.be/3VtPgxPxiK0?t... [youtu.be]

    JoshK.

  • Start launching extremely inexpensive, inert aircraft, what the other guys spend lots of $$$$ shooing them down.
  • by sound+vision ( 884283 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @10:11PM (#63288365) Journal

    [Intro]
    You and I in a little toy shop
    Buy a bag of balloons with the money we've got
    Set them free at the break of dawn
    'Til one by one, they were gone
    Back at base, bugs in the software
    Flash the message, "Something's out there!"
    Floating in the summer sky
    Ninety-nine red balloons go by

    [Verse 1]
    Ninety-nine red balloons
    Floating in the summer sky
    Panic bells, it's red alert!
    There's something here from somewhere else!
    The war machine springs to life
    Opens up one eager eye
    Focusing it on the sky
    When ninety-nine red balloons go by

    [Verse 2]
    99 Decision Street
    Ninety-nine ministers meet
    To worry, worry, super-scurry
    Call the troops out in a hurry
    This is what we've waited for
    This is it, boys, this is war
    The president is on the line
    As ninety-nine red balloons go by

    [Verse 3]
    Ninety-nine knights of the air
    Ride super high-tech jet fighters
    Everyone's a superhero
    Everyone's a "Captain Kirk"
    With orders to identify
    To clarify and classify
    Scramble in the summer sky
    Ninety-nine red balloons go by
    As ninety-nine red balloons go by

    [Outro]
    Ninety-nine dreams I have had
    In every one, a red balloon
    It's all over and I'm standin' pretty
    In this dust that was a city
    If I could find a souvenir
    Just to prove the world was here
    And here is a red balloon
    I think of you, and let it go...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

  • Wifi (Score:5, Interesting)

    by sudonim2 ( 2073156 ) on Sunday February 12, 2023 @10:30PM (#63288403)
    Remember Google's Project Loon? Basically giant wifi routers on balloons? The Chinese have a program similar to that they've been testing for years. If they lost control of a few balloons over Northern China or Mongolia, then the jet stream would pull them over the Northern continental US. Which is basically what we've been seeing. And a big, low power, phased array antenna would look like an espionage system at first blush. It could be as simple as a bit of unusually strong winds over Northern China disrupting their fleet of internet balloons. But the dogs of war are busy beating their drums for reasons of almost purely domestic politics.
  • much like a car buyer unchecking boxes on a website to broaden the parameters of what can be searched

    WHEW, I was worried that I was gonna be real confused by all that fangled terminology regarding "filters", but I'm glad they translated it into the car-buyer's language that simpletons like me can understand!

  • It kind of reminds me Don Quixote attacking windmills.

    A knight clad in armor seeks targets for his righteous inner anger in order to prolong his relevance in the modern world.
  • by WaffleMonster ( 969671 ) on Monday February 13, 2023 @01:48AM (#63288643)

    Do spy balloons collect something spy satellites don't? Why advertise detection capabilities to your adversaries? Given cost of aircraft, fuel and missiles is this the best use of taxpayer dollars?

    • 'Sig Int" - signals intelligence. Details of radar and radio emissions, useful if you are trying to build stealth aircraft, or tap into someones radio comms

      • 'Sig Int" - signals intelligence. Details of radar and radio emissions, useful if you are trying to build stealth aircraft, or tap into someones radio comms

        I'm asking what you need a balloon for that can't be done via satellite.

        • Signals propagate only so far, and resolution is better if you're you're closer. The altitude of the balloons is maybe ten miles up. By contrast a satellite will be more than ten times distant.

      • Poppycock.

        1) We have sigint satellites. The Chinese may not, but i'm skeptical that it's wise to think they don't.
        2) let's say they wanted sigint from USSTRATCOM (one of the "sensitive" sites the balloon overflew), why not just put a dude onto a domestic flight into Omaha with a fucking SDR and a few TB of storage space?
        3) Open Skies treaty. Every square inch of the US has been overflown by actual spy planes, intentionally, by treaty. The Chinese know this, as they have almost certainly purchased the re
  • Into the population? As that would be a great way to drop 'crap' all over you enemy.
  • Auf ihrem weg zum Horizont...
  • So, Biden was heavily criticised for belated action over the Chinese "weather balloon".
    Is it possible that this is largely made-up hokum to make it look like he is actually decisive?

  • It was located at 20k', as opposed to 60k'. The shape was not like the other 3. This one likely is a copycat launched from west/north of lake mich.

    The first 3 are of interest. Obviously the first one was one of China's spy balloons. The other 2 could be from China, but more likely n.korea or Russia.
  • I was wondering what they would come up with after corona.

  • by indytx ( 825419 ) on Monday February 13, 2023 @07:08AM (#63288947)

    The latest object was octagonal. The next one will be a pyramid. I would be surprised if we didn't start seeing blinking lights. Someone has seen Close Encounters of the Third Kind and is launching these things to cause panic in the U.S.

  • I am proud my country is now protecting our skies from balloons that children "accidently" release at the carnival. I bet those balloons were made in China too! /sarcasm
  • it has a classification as the object shot down near Michican.

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