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Top Chinese Scientists Sketch Out Plans To Thwart US Chip Curbs (bloomberg.com) 130

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
Key members of China's most influential scientific body have outlined the country's plan to circumvent US chip sanctions for the first time, codifying Beijing's view of how it could win a crucial technological conflict with Washington. From a report: Two of the country's senior academics wrote that Beijing should amass a portfolio of patents that govern the next generation of chipmaking, from novel materials to new techniques. That should propel its semiconductor ambitions while giving China the clout to push back against US sanctions designed to hamstring its semiconductor sector, Luo Junwei and Li Shushen wrote in the bulletin of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

The article, published to a social media account affiliated with the academy, offers a rare glimpse into how Beijing thinks about and might react to the Biden administration's escalating hostilities over semiconductors. The academy advises China's top decision makers and the article echoes remarks by President Xi Jinping calling for victory in developing core technologies. It comes as the country's new technology overseer outlined his vision for moving past American sanctions, stressing the need to modernize and rectify weak links in its supply chain. China has a plan to develop next-generation chip materials that it put in place in 2020 as a reaction to Trump-era restrictions. Yet that national strategy has yet to yield a technological edge on the world's leading chipmakers. Washington has implemented a series of measures limiting exports of technology such as chipmaking gear and artificial intelligence processors to China, part of a broader set of technology sanctions.
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Top Chinese Scientists Sketch Out Plans To Thwart US Chip Curbs More

Top Chinese Scientists Sketch Out Plans To Thwart US Chip Curbs

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  • Yes, we know (Score:3)

    by nospam007 ( 722110 ) * on Monday February 20, 2023 @06:04PM (#63309571)

    They are dropping the chips from balloons now, to avoid customs checks.

  • Sure, do that (Score:5, Interesting)

    by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Monday February 20, 2023 @06:34PM (#63309671) Homepage Journal

    Two of the country's senior academics wrote that Beijing should amass a portfolio of patents that govern the next generation of chipmaking, from novel materials to new techniques.

    OK, but China doesn't even have modern chip-making tech. How are they supposed to progress to the next generation without moving through the current one?

    • I see they are confident that their patents will be respected legally. Hm. That's a hedge that others will be cooperative with their patent restrictions, or a vague future threat of power projection. Which wouldn't surprise me if someone in a government body thought that.

      • Re:Sure, do that (Score:5, Informative)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @07:12PM (#63309821) Homepage Journal

        Look at how American companies enforce their parents internationally. They sue in local courts to block sales and imports. Countries are keen to recognise and protect international patents, so other countries will respect theirs.

        Despite all the sanctions against Huawei, everyone is still licencing their patents.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sxpert ( 139117 )

        that's where the trap lies.
        if the US don't respect China's patent, China will see it as an invitation to don't care about US asserted patents.

        • Swell. How will China be able to violate those patents if they don't have the technological capability to violate those patents?

          (I'd go on and ask "How would China get international patents approved if no one is willing to trade with them?", but its pretty moot to ask *you* that question.)

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @06:53PM (#63309755)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Ol Olsoc ( 1175323 )

      Two of the country's senior academics wrote that Beijing should amass a portfolio of patents that govern the next generation of chipmaking, from novel materials to new techniques.

      OK, but China doesn't even have modern chip-making tech. How are they supposed to progress to the next generation without moving through the current one?

      Exactly. Even if they do, what American market would there be for chips designed from the start to phone home or even self destruct on dire command??

    • Re:Sure, do that (Score:5, Funny)

      by LatencyKills ( 1213908 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:28PM (#63309969)

      You make is sound so difficult. All they have to do is develop the next groundbreaking chip technology starting from the peak of 1980s chip technology It's like you never heard of leapfrogging. Leapfrogging!

      • +1, Sarcastic

        Comments like this keep me coming back to Slashdot even when I feel like it's a lost cause

    • OK, but China doesn't even have modern chip-making tech. How are they supposed to progress to the next generation without moving through the current one?

      By stealing IP. They don't just lack modern chip-making tech. They can't make either high-end or mid-range chip tech.

      So, other than slugging through a 50-year tech gap, I'm not sure how they would steal all the technological pieces in the semiconductor logistic supply chain, but that's the only play they have for as long as are under chip-related sanctions.

      And that's what happens when you can't play nice, for this is not just a 'Murka's thing. Every country involved in high-end chip-making is in the blo

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sxpert ( 139117 )

        as if the US had the only possible viable tech. stop with the arrogance

        • this is not just a 'Murka's thing. Every country involved in high-end chip-making is in the blockade

          as if the US had the only possible viable tech. stop with the arrogance

          wat

        • as if the US had the only possible viable tech. stop with the arrogance

          We don't. Europe does, in particular the Netherlands. No single country has everything needed. It's an ecosystem between the US, the UK, the Netherlands, Japan, Germany, South Korea and Taiwan.

          And they are all blocking China. Feel free to blah-blah about my arrogance or whatever keeps you at night.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by HiThere ( 15173 )

      For patents you don't need the same equipment that you do for a massive chip fab. Lots of labs do that in a way that would be ridiculously expensive if you thought of it as mass production, but which works quite well for developing techniques.

      The catch here is "would their patents be respected?". The counter here would be "If you don't respect our patents, we won't respect yours.".

    • They also generally ignore patents? Their plan sounds awesome!

    • Instead of shooting down all of the UFOs, China captured a few and now has alien chip tech thus leapfrogging our race to angstrom sized chip features.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kriston ( 7886 )

      By licensing foreign IP under the names "Hygon HygonGenuine" and "zhaoxin Shanghai" is how.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      China has been recruiting talent to help them reach the cutting edge for a few years now. A lot of people from Taiwan. China also has a big R&D base, consisting of universities and private enterprises.

      If we just assume they can't do it we will end up in another Huawei situation, where suddenly they leapfrogged us and our own companies are demanding sanctions to slow their Chinese competitors down.

      • If we just assume they can't do it we will end up in another Huawei situation, where suddenly they leapfrogged us

        Which could mean the reason Huawei leapfrogged US corporations is that we didn't have sanctions in place beforehand.

    • My patent is as follows :

      Use DUv/EUV/Xray?Gamma Ray / something ray which I pulled out of my ass and focus it with a lens created with glass / sapphire / diamond / some other material I created just / pulled off the periodic table to focus the rays to burn off a substrate on a wafer of silicon / carbon / some other stuff I thought off or pulled out of the periodic table to etch patterns to make the components of a microchip.

      Probably create a script to get all the permutations possible.

      And if someone uses so

  • Patent Manipulation and Theft. Bah. The Western Companies should Withhold Publication till the last minute and Tighten up their research.

  • 1. Run 100 meters in under 9.58 seconds.

  • Stupidity.... (Score:3)

    by OneOfMany07 ( 4921667 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:12PM (#63309943)

    I keep seeing all this political stuff as deck chairs on the Titanic. Wasted time and effort to one up the other guy.

    I mean we could be sharing cutting edge technologies with everyone. Or we could force people to reinvent the wheel over and over. It's not my choice...

    And no, you can't regulate technology into hiding/safety. It'll work about as well as the drug war has. Except with ideas I can give you something new without losing anything myself.

    The only time I lose is when there is another game that requires me to prove I'm worthy of living. Then it's not a matter of everyone winning... I'm sure I'll get the Kevin Chang yearbook quote wrong, but it was something like "It's not enough for me to win, others must lose".

    More and more I agree that there are times when a technology would be invented by many different people. And that we are hurting ourselves by trying to reward "inventors" that way. The really good inventors will work away without pay if they could live semi-comfortably too. They just enjoy the ideas. The results.

    Or that's what I believe, and wish were more true. It'd take a big change in our laws and minds to come about. And the people in power don't want to give up what they have.

    • I keep seeing all this political stuff as deck chairs on the Titanic.

      When you leave out the "rearranging" part, it just sounds like you're nit picking the fact that the designers gave people comfortable places to sit before the boat sank. If you're gonna sink, might as well do so in luxury.

      Having a bunch of cheap made-in-China consumer electronics to distract us from the realities of a faltering economy, now that's deck chairs on the Titanic.

    • Human intrinsic nature is too stupid, tribalist, selfish, and emotional to be capable of that sorry. Maybe when AI+robots take over, they'll be better about stuff like that.

    • If we kept selling chips to China, America and allies would be making money forever. With sanctions, we ensure that we lose not only the Chinese market but subsequently the entire world market within the next decade or two by creating a huge incentive for China's 1.4 billion people to focus on taking the lead in that industry instead of just buying what they need from us to get the job done.

    • we could be sharing cutting edge technologies with everyone. Or we could force people to reinvent the wheel over and over. It's not my choice...

      We tried playing nice with China. They didn't keep up their end of the bargain. They don't follow the WTO rules they agreed to. Of course, we don't really follow 'em either, but they don't follow them harder. Having to partner with a Chinese company, not being able to own property, not respecting foreign IP, the list goes on.

      you can't regulate technology into hiding/safety.

      You can't stop it, but you can slow it down. As crap a primary superpower as America has been, there can't really be any question that China would be worse on top of the pile.

      • USA will fall behind anyway, someday. China then India will overtake it as population is pulled out of poverty and tech grows. Pure numbers game. Already over half the human race lives in Asia, that's where the center of power will be.

        Note Asia mostly doesn't give a crap that two countries in Europe ar fighting, and they don't respect USA's (hypocritical, since we still buy nuclear fuel from Russia) sanction wishes.

        • India lacks the culture/genetics, it's a basket case.

          China lacks being a country most of its smart kids actually want to be. There is huge brain drain to Australia and the US and even Canada. Sure they will steal some IP and send it back to China, but without their most intelligent workers it won't do them much good.

          As long as America is the best country in the world to work and live in, it will keep getting the best talent.

          • Re:Stupidity.... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by sxpert ( 139117 ) on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:50AM (#63310499)

            that's just bare naked racism out of pure arrogance right there.
            this kind of shiznit will be the downfall of the US.

            • The Indian part could be racism or it could be culturalism, though if you have some other explanation for their pathetic educational attainment other than culture/genetics I'd like to hear it. If it's culture, that still doesn't mean it's a tractable problem to solve in the near term. You would need it to be something entirely else to quickly fix it, or maybe they need a communist revolution first?

              The Chinese part is definitely more culturalism. I neither meant to imply China is undesirable to live in becau

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

              Despite all their problems it's hard not to cheer for China in this, especially with commenters like that around.

        • Re:Stupidity.... (Score:4, Insightful)

          by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:57PM (#63310235) Homepage Journal

          A population that size is a liability. China is dependent on foreign nations to feed its people now. Uncounted people (literally, the government is refusing to count them) are starving in India now.

          Note Asia mostly doesn't give a crap that two countries in Europe ar fighting, and they don't respect USA's (hypocritical, since we still buy nuclear fuel from Russia) sanction wishes.

          Another fine reason to reduce rather than expand nuclear power. I just don't see what's in it for China to sell arms to Russia, unless they're going to sell them more shit that doesn't work like those tires.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Nobody follows WTO rules. The US has been sanctioned by the WTO for not playing fair. There was even a story on Slashdot about it years ago, because one of the remedies was for the complainant to ignore US copyrights. I seem to recall the issue was gambling websites.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        Bullshit. This is 100% about the US trying to squish a competitor using whatever means necessary. All the military scare tactics are directed at a country that doesn't even spend the minimum "required" for a NATO member. The spying allegations, from Huawei to balloons, are things the US has either been caught doing or has done right out in the open for decades.

        Meanwhile, the nasty little economic war has sunk any chances of actually improving China's human rights problems and, if it works, has a very good c

    • Who is "we" and what would those people share? Looks like all the advanced fab tech is in Taiwan.

  • RISC-V (Score:3)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:42PM (#63310007) Homepage Journal

    Sweet, RISC-V is about to get much better, and it's already really good.

    Debian's experimental build seems fairly solid.

  • Been watching The Three Body Problem and the Trisolarans tried to hobble Earth technology while prepping for an invasion::: https://www.youtube.com/playli... [youtube.com] The next step is to deploy Wallfacers https://three-body-problem.fan... [fandom.com]

    • There's no money in invading China for anyone but the MIC itself. It would only mess up the spreadsheets for everyone else.

  • I'm sure that will go well, when they just steal everyone else's ideas in the first place.

  • Old Taiwanese CEO said (Score:3)

    by Big Hairy Gorilla ( 9839972 ) on Monday February 20, 2023 @10:05PM (#63310151)
    During legit media interview, CBC, I think, the patriarch of the giant company. He said they don't have to blow up the equipment on the way out the door if China invades. He said the supply chains were very precise and very tricky to get the physics and chemistry right allll the time. Nope. They won't have the know how or management experience. Ironic.

  • They already arranged workarounds with these CPUs:
    Hygon HygonGenuine
    zhaoxin Shanghai

    One is licensed from AMD. The other from VIA.

  • Ultimately, people don't want to live in a dictatorship where they have zero freedom. It really is that simple. This results in a constant "brain-drain" from China where anyone with the skill or means to leave generally does so.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sxpert ( 139117 )

      also people want affordable healthcare, which ain't happening anytime soon in the US. that will lead to your own brain drain

    • Dictatorship or money? How does china's brain drain compare to other countries? USA salaries are 3-4x of most countries, does people with high skills stay in these democratic countries? I have no idea what is the main drive of china brain drain it may not be so obvious.
    • Sincerely, most people won't give a dime for political freedom. But, people do care about others stealing their stuff. And this is exactly what happens with dictatorships, and the cohorts of oligarchs that come with them.

  • Their entire strategy is patent trolling. Great.

  • China has a long record of overcoming adversity. Sanctions and demographic collapse are big obstacles to overcome, but I wouldn't be surprised to see China come out of the situation both more competitive and more dangerous than ever.

    Meanwhile, I haven't heard much lately about bringing large-scale semi manufacture back to the States. I hope it's just a story that wasn't reported or that I missed, and not a lack of progress in re-establishing domestic fabs.

  • Who are they dittoing today?

  • That did such a good job of protecting US companies IP from China right?

  • The country that built its entire economy on violating patents and IP... is now going to try to rely on patents and IP to maintain control of chipmaking?

    ThisIsThePartWhereWeThrowOurHeadsBackAndLaugh.gif

  • "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all PROGRESS depends on the unreasonable man" - George Bernard Shaw (b. 1856)
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

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