China Reminds US That It Can and Will Kill a Forced TikTok Sale (techcrunch.com) 171
China pushed back against the U.S. government's proposal to force a sale of TikTok on Thursday, rejecting the possible solution to ongoing national security concerns around the app. From a report: TikTok CEO Shou Zi Chew appeared before Congress on Thursday morning, facing questions from U.S. lawmakers that centered around concerns that the Chinese government could leverage the app's data to surveil American citizens or otherwise undermine national interests. In a press conference hours before the hearing began, China's Commerce Ministry spokesperson Shu Jueting weighed in with Beijing's opposition to the Biden administration's proposal. "...Forcing a sale of TikTok will seriously damage the confidence of investors from all over the world, including China, to invest in the United States," she said. "If the news is true, China will firmly oppose it."
The idea to force the company to divest itself of Chinese ownership first surfaced during the Trump administration, culminating in a deal for TikTok to sell its U.S. operations to Oracle in late 2020. At the time, TikTok also rejected an acquisition offer from Microsoft, though ultimately neither company succeeded and the strange arrangement fizzled after a series of successful legal challenges. The deal was shelved indefinitely when the Biden took office the following year, but in recent days the administration has picked up the languishing mission to force a sale. In rejecting the U.S. proposal, which the Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S. (CFIUS) would spearhead, China is reiterated a point it made during the Trump administration. Further reading: TikTok CEO says China-based ByteDance employees still have access to some U.S. data.
The idea to force the company to divest itself of Chinese ownership first surfaced during the Trump administration, culminating in a deal for TikTok to sell its U.S. operations to Oracle in late 2020. At the time, TikTok also rejected an acquisition offer from Microsoft, though ultimately neither company succeeded and the strange arrangement fizzled after a series of successful legal challenges. The deal was shelved indefinitely when the Biden took office the following year, but in recent days the administration has picked up the languishing mission to force a sale. In rejecting the U.S. proposal, which the Committee on Foreign Investment in the U.S. (CFIUS) would spearhead, China is reiterated a point it made during the Trump administration. Further reading: TikTok CEO says China-based ByteDance employees still have access to some U.S. data.
Then block it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Then block it (Score:4, Insightful)
Just ban the fucker and be done with it.
China just gave us our answer.
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Blocking it in the US only deprives them of US data. Forcing the sale deprives China of access to *all* TT data. They would rather cook and eat their own foot - still attached - than sell it.
There are a lot of 2nd and 3rd world countries, African, central and south American, etc. that China would LOVE to do business with. The TT data provides them with a wealth of understanding.. and advantages in negotiations.
The difference between China and US... China, the gov't, has direct access to social media data
Re:Then block it (Score:5, Insightful)
The difference between China and US... China, the gov't, has direct access to social media data to aid in its decision making process. Western societies - not so much access to Meta, Amazon, Google, Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, Snapchat, Twitter, etc.
I don't agree with that, if the US government insisted on the data it would most likely get it. Just look at this article the US government it trying to force a sale of a company owned by people in another country. On no real evidence apart from the company is Chinese owned so China could access the data. If they have the arrogance to do that what makes you think they won't force local companies, with people who actually live in the country and directly effected by the laws they create from handing over information.
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The US government doesn't have to ask. We know from Snowden's leaks that all these compares have been hacked by the NSA, which maintains long term access to their databases.
Also if we are worried about TikTok, it has to be pointed out that Microsoft and Apple both give the CCP direct access to data. It is a requirement for operating in China. Google does not, which is why Google is blocked in China. Depending on how paranoid you are, you might assume that if the CCP can access Chinese citizen's data stored
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If there was a reason, yes....FISA court, as flawed as it is, is. a safeguard against abuse.
And there are other safeguards there.
But, the US govt can not (not supposed to) dictate the algorithms and what material is put out by the social media company....the US can't control them to try to promote an agenda which China directly can and does.
That being said, from the twitter files, it looks like the US govt, at
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Re:Then block it (Score:5, Insightful)
It provides no value. Free us from it.
I don't care if this burns karma, because I've got plenty to spare and it needs to be said.
It is not the government's job to force everyone else to live under your beliefs. If you don't want TikTok on your phone, remove the app or don't install it in the first place. You're the same type of fascist control freak who wants books removed and LGBTQ+ topics banned from public schools, because it just bothers you that opting your own kid out from those sort of things isn't good enough. You're not satisfied unless you've taken individual choice away from others, because you truly believe they're incapable of making their own decisions for themselves.
Unless you consume no entertainment material at all, chances are you're into something that someone else would ban because from their perspective, they similarly consider that it "provides no value". Maybe it's porn, rock music, or some kink that I'm not going to shame. If the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be right here saying "who are you to decide what I'm allowed to have?"
Fun fact: I don't even use TikTok. I just know where this shit leads, and it doesn't end with banning one app.
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It provides no value.
It does provide value. It's a "town square" that isn't controlled by Alphabet Inc., Zuck, or Musk. You really have to ask yourself who stands to benefit from a TikTok ban, and now you have your answer to who's really pulling those government strings. You just need to update a few of the names on this [wikipedia.org] and it's still just as relevant today.
If TikTok did end to end encryption would that satisfy the USA?
Or is end to end encryption bad, because it prevents the US government snooping on your stuff?
I'm confused.
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To be fair, their technically not American companies, they're Irish companies.
Re: Then block it (Score:2)
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Chinese companies are a risk to the US government. Not to me. The CCP can't arrest me for wrongthink halfway across the world. The US government absolutely can.
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Well, the US government can't arrest you for "wrongthink". The tinfoil hat maybe be on a bit too tight.
Re:Then block it (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you seen what DeSantis has been trying to do lately with Disney? What Texas is trying to do against teachers? Do you remember what happened with Julian Assange or Edward Snowden?
There's might not be a "wrongthink" law, but I guarantee you they can find something to charge you with (e.g. national security). And frankly if free speech was so well protected, there wouldn't be a 15,000 word Wikipedia page [wikipedia.org] on US censorship.
And that's laws on the books. Way too many people are ok with "cancelling" someone they disagree with. Even if you don't end up in jail, destroying your your career and family is quite easy.
Now compare that to China, who can do.... what exactly? Harass me on the internet? Like that doesn't happen all the time already.
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Yeah, all those examples are circumstantial and most likely won't hold up to judicial scrutiny. And Assange and Snowden both stole or published classified data. Then you bring up people being "canceled" which has nothing to do with the government arresting someone for their speech. So I don't really think you have a valid point. You just have conspiracy brain and need to take a walk outside now and then. Get away from the internet.
Re: Then block it (Score:2)
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Re: Then block it (Score:2)
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Depends. If you have Chinese origins, they surely will try to. Just look at the Chinese overseas police stations. And it is unclear what happens when you post anti-Xi memes and then fly to countries aligned to China.
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Please provide real concrete examples of how China has used TikTok to harm the US. Did they get the nuclear codes?
Do you know what the actual harm is? It is boobs. It is people calling out christians for being self-centered controlling d-bags. These are the "problems" that are behind the effort to ban TikTok. It is Tipper Gore redux.
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Ah yes, real concrete evidence. Somehow I doubt that you would change your mind had I actually had evidence. Well unfortunately I don't have security clearance and can't provide you with proof of spying efforts. But I can tell you that TikTok is a powerful manipulation and propaganda tool. You wouldn't be so foolish to believe that those are benign threats now would you?
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Chinese influence operations and the harm they cause are so blatant its not even classified information.
In the US a bunch of people are being tried for various instances of criminal assault on a New York governorship candidate that was on the shitlist of the Chinese Communist Party - for insisting the Tiananmen Square massacre actually happened no less - and have already admitted being coordinated by a Chinese national that happens to be an intelligence operative.
Just now on the news that they found evidenc
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Well duh, if my own government does it, it's my fault. If China does it, they are being evil. Not so hard.
What's good for the goose (Score:5, Informative)
China itself blocks things like Facebook, Twitter, and other US-based sites over security concerns (or whatever).
So what exactly is their problem with the US doing the same? They obviously understand the issue.
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China itself blocks things like Facebook [...] So what exactly is their problem with the US doing the same?
I'm pretty sure they would think of blocking TIkTok as fair game. But they don't think it's fair if they build an intelligence operation up to a point it has a large microphone collection within enemy countries, and are suddenly deprived from it through a forced sale; There are certain things a country won't want to sell. No country would sell their operating submarines or spy satellite fleet to a major rival. OTOH blocking enemy satellites or submarines from spying your place is fair game.
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I'm pretty sure they would think of blocking TIkTok as fair game
I'm pretty sure I would see the US government blocking my free access to a web site as a violation of my rights and unconstitutional. The government would have a hard time justifying that.
As long as I'm not supplying national secrets to TikTok, then what they do with my data is between TikTok, and me. The government has no say, and can, thank-you very much, get out of my business. I am quite capable of judging the threat to my privacy and data. And, frankly, it's a lower threat than with Youtube, Facebo
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I'll make it easy for you.
China in all things compared to the USA is the bad guy.
Basically, would your rather live under Communist Chinese rule....?
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I'll make it easy for you.
China in all things compared to the USA is the bad guy.
Basically, would your rather live under Communist Chinese rule....?
So your saying that world domination is a race between China and the USA and that eventually I will be ruled by one or the other and which would I choose?
Ie your admitting that world domination is the end game of the USA?
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No, the current end game for the USA is for the rest of the world to be like the EU and 5 eyes countries are now. After the next election, the USA's end game may change.
Except they wouldn't want to invite them into 5-eyes because that would mean sharing data with them.
And for the end game to be that the rest of the world is like the EU, yes kind of exactly; the EU are just client states of the USA. Vassals who do what they are told.
Thats world domination right there. It isn't always boots on the ground, its cultural and economic control.
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The EU doesn't seem like vassals from where I am. They seem like the people with more than two political parties who manage to make the corporate entities behave a little bit. The thing I like the least about USA is that our politicians do the bidding of multi-person organisms that are irritable and reproduce, but can't compete with AI chat bots for intelligence and have the fine moral character of a brain eating amoeba. At the number two spot is this notion that moral behavior doesn't apply when interacting with people who aren't members of the home tribe, but this problem I see everywhere I look.
Yet the USA can blow up major European infrastructure and no one in Europe dares to say a word...
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Yet the USA can blow up major European infrastructure
[Citation needed]
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Yet the USA can blow up major European infrastructure
[Citation needed]
There was one just recently.
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Have you ever been to Italy, or Germany or even the cantons that barely agree on being called Switzerland? Obviously national and economic interests come and go, and politicians politicate about these things endlessly, but walking around on the streets none of those people seem particularly dominated by US interests to me. And if they do enjoy the same Marvel movies as Americans do you'll have to explain to me why that's such a bad thing.
On the other hand, if you walk around Tibet or the place formerly call
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Then there's Hawaii, as well as most of the continental USA where the original inhabitants who have been treated much worse then China treats Tibet or Uyghuristan, but I guess that was only saving savages.
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China? Yes, I believe that is their ultimate goal.
The US? No...more that the current ability to have your autonomy should remain at least as good as it is now.
Are we perfect? No...do we fuck up? Yes....but no, we don't want to take over the world.
If we did, we would have been taking
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Right because China historically has gone around colonizing and taking over other nations.
I'm really interested how you think China went from Shang dynasty boundaries 3000 years ago [artsmia.org] to its current boundaries today.
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Re: What's good for the goose (Score:2)
Did you forget the part where no company can do business in China without making a joint venture with a Chinese corp and giving said corp its IP?
China already forces company sales, just in a different way, and the rest of the world stupidly let it happen.
We should do to China as China does to us. Huawei wants to sell 5g stuff in Europe or the US? Make a joint venture with Ericsson or Cisco, give us your IP, or fuck off.
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So what exactly is their problem with the US doing the same? They obviously understand the issue.
It's like when the "good guy" resorts to using forbidden dark magic to fight his enemy, and the enemy responds "see, we're really not so different now, are we?" China understands quite well that the USA operates under a different ideology regarding freedoms.
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Its like there isn't a good guy or a bad guy. As you said the USA and China operate under a different ideology, that means its quite possible under China's ideology they are the good guys and and the USA's ideology the USA is the good guy.
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True, enlightened countries sterilize based on race, not religion. Same with the reeducation camps, if the colour of your skin is red, off you go to learn why America is best.
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Well, because in China it's perfectly acceptable for the state to fund, run, direct, and engage in whatever business shenanigans they want.
The US is not permitted to do so...so we better not be!
While slightly tongue in cheek, there's a valid point hiding in there. The respective laws in each country govern what they can do, and they're different. The doom and gloom is (at a stretch) potential fallout from the US taking measures that are disruptive and relatively unprecedented.
Now, really, the world would b
They literally block Tik Tok too (Score:2)
because the algorithms are tuned for negative content (how many dumb fuck "challenges" are you aware of?) and the primary audience is kids and they know this.
Only the CCP approved Douyin is allowed in China - not the fuck the stupid foreigner's kids version.
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China itself blocks things like Facebook, Twitter, and other US-based sites over security concerns (or whatever).
Absolutely correct
So what exactly is their problem with the US doing the same? They obviously understand the issue.
Ah.... but see, there's the rub: China isn't actually the greatest hindrance to the US following suit; the US is. Or to be more precise: The US Constitution is that which hinders lawmakers the most from enacting overwhelming and draconian measures -- even when those measures are specifically intended to protect the US from foreign influencers. Since the Constitution (and the Bill of Rights) place such strong emphasis on an individual citizen's right to freedom of expression -- a value not
China wants to spy on US/ the world (Score:4, Insightful)
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TikTok gives China the ability to spy on the world. China does not want to lose that ability. China lies when they say they don't monitor the world's internet.
Ok so name something that gives the USA the ability to spy on the world.
And does the USA lie when it says it doesn't monitor the worlds internet?
Seriously... no country on Earth does as much spying as the USA (together with its 5 eyes minions).
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I understand, as a properly indoctrinated, er I mean educated, American, you don't see it like this. But much of the rest of the world... actually we see the US as a far bigger threat to our freedom than China.
And you think we should be afraid of China.
This is a serious question: What percentage of countries or people consider either China or the US to be the bigger threat? This is not a question about liking or disliking either China or the US but actually consider either to be a military or economic threat.
China as a threat: US, Canada, much of Europe, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Australia ... maybe also Vietnam, India(?) ... maybe also Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, T
US as a threat: China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela
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I understand, as a properly indoctrinated, er I mean educated, American, you don't see it like this. But much of the rest of the world... actually we see the US as a far bigger threat to our freedom than China.
And you think we should be afraid of China.
This is a serious question: What percentage of countries or people consider either China or the US to be the bigger threat? This is not a question about liking or disliking either China or the US but actually consider either to be a military or economic threat.
China as a threat: US, Canada, much of Europe, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Australia ... maybe also Vietnam, India(?) ... maybe also Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Turkey(?)
US as a threat: China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Cuba, Venezuela
Most countries in central/south America, Africa, Oceana, and most of Asia don't care either way because other concerns are far more important to them.
Or in that second category, they view both US and China as pretty much equivalent threats. I've been in places that saw the world like that; not trusting China or Russia or the US and its buddies.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Doesn't China already have that ability from all the other spyware that is also on everybody's phones? And the spy chips that are on all the hardware that gets built in China? It seems strange to focus on this one specific app when there are so many others.
Maybe this is why China is putting up a fight to defend it. It keeps people paying attention to this one app, and ignoring all the other vectors that have been in place for quite a while.
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I recall hearing about the supermicro extra chips on servers. Is there proof to the embedded spy chips that you can share? I know Huawei and Hikvision are banned from any governement contractor, but I havent seen any details of embedded spy chips. There is some chance this is Alphabet/Meta protecting their relevance, but it can also be true what is beig claimed.
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Rock solid proof might be hard. There are articles like this [bloomberg.com] and some disagreement [cnbc.com].
So I don't know about proof. But it is clear that china has the means, motive, and opportunity to put spy chips in hardware made there. So, why wouldn't they?
Just like with software spying via Facebook, or any app at all that you install on your phone: if they can, they do. To assume anyone is too morally noble to do such things would be naïve.
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Morality in politics doesn't exist, if the opposite of that is what I conveyed, I failed. I was curious how much of this was geopolitics and economic posturing. When Bill Clinton secured Chinas entry into the WTO and CEO's of tech companies salivated to get production of all technology into China, this was an obvious a danger and a threat then. As a simple 20 year old it was obvious the dangers it represented to have manufacturing in a country that didn't respect IP rights, human rights or rights of citizen
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So what exactly can TikTok give China that it can't get from elsewhere? I have heard nothing about any spying in TikTok that doesn't also appear in FB, Twitter, Instagram, Google, or any number of other just as popular apps. And all of these apps sell their data to outside parties. Are you trying to say China couldn't just buy access to this data (even if they had to go through an intermediary)? Why is it OK for FB to have this data but not China directly? I am actually less worried about China having data
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Do you have a link to some forensic evidence that this is happening? If so, why not just make the spying illegal.
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Heh. What's that old Carlin quote? "...and fire fighters fight fires, what do Freedom Fighters fight?"
Much Ado About Nothing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why does the Chinese government care if Tiktok is just another company? The Chinese government seems to care a bit too much about what the US thinks about this particular company which totally isn't important and not controlled by the Chinese government.
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Moreover, they can go ahead and block a sale. Then the US government bans it, and the value of the US assets become very close to zero and can't be sold any more.
Score?
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So you admit there is no agency in any Chinese company, and that ultimately the only thing that matters to them is the effect on the State?
The US isn't claiming to be "different" here, they're claiming to be responsible for American security.
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Did anyone ever try to claim otherwise?
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The Chinese government seems to care a bit too much about what the US thinks about this particular company which totally isn't important and not controlled by the Chinese government
When did they say that tiktok wasn't important? If google sell its search engine business to an italian company, US gov man may become upset. Also yes, every chinese companies more or less belong to China gov, it's not a secret. Another non secret is the USA-Chinese trade/softpower war, if one of these two can upset the other one, they will do it. Also I pity Chinese spies which need to look at cringe tiktok video all day long, another crime against humanity.
Re:Much Ado About Nothing? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Supposedly Tiktok is not an arm of the Chinese government. But if the US requires a divestiture of Tiktok US assets, China's Commerce Ministry will be upset and block such a sale?
It's an interesting theoretical question of world economic authority. Currently any big country/bloc can block big corporate mergers or impose conditions such as divestiture. It hasn't happened yet, but what happens when the big countries issue directly conflicting mandates? Such as you must sell to a country as well as must refuse to sell to a country (okay, the laws about boycotts of Israel sort of fall into this category). Or you must divest as well as must refuse to divest.
It would also interesting
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Here's what I don't get: So what if they are an arm of the Chinese government. Its not illegal for it to be, nor should it be.
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Supposedly Tiktok is not an arm of the Chinese government. But if the US requires a divestiture of Tiktok US assets, China's Commerce Ministry will be upset and block such a sale?
I'm somewhat curious what mechanism they think they have to even attempt to "block" the sale of US assets.
That they're claiming they can seems to prove that they're a security threat, because they're not supposed to have any jurisdiction here at all.
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this is the most retarded analogy ive ever read, thank you for that.
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Maybe the more apt analogy is that China and the US are next-door neighbors. China has a child that owns a dog that the US considers to be threatening, so it insists that the child either muzzle the dog when outside or bans the dog from US property. China can order the child to refuse to muzzle the dog, but it can't order the US to allow the unmuzzled dog on its property.
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China has a child that owns a dog that the US considers to be threatening, so it insists that the child either muzzle the dog when outside or bans the dog from US property.
Nope, not much better. I think this is why people generally stick with car analogies rather than dog analogies. Although, after reading all this dog analogy stuff, now my head hurts too much to think of a proper car analogy, so I'll ask ChatGPT to do it:
Imagine that you have a car that you bought in China, but you want to drive it in the United States. However, the US government is concerned about the car's safety features and wants you to install new parts and make modifications before you can legally drive it. The US government also requires that you sell the car to a US-based buyer who will ensure that the necessary changes are made.
However, China is not happy with this arrangement because they believe that the car is perfectly safe and does not require any modifications. They also believe that the car should be able to drive in any country without the need for a new owner. Therefore, they are pushing back against the US government's demands, and the two countries are in a standoff over the fate of the car.
Yep, that's a pretty terrible analogy as well. Perhaps sometimes it's just best to try to see the original situation as it is. If you still don't get it without an analogy, you know the saying: skydiving probably isn't for you.
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honestly, its better than the OP
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so we've confirmed you are retarded, awesome. next step: stop shilling for the CCP.
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Well, at least if wasn't cars.
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You bought a taxi car and are operating it three towns over, but the City Council of that town passes a law that requires all taxis operating there to be owned by somebody living in that town, forcing you to either sell the taxi, or shut down the business. But you're a corporation, so you can't shut it down, because other shareholders would lose their investment.
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I'm in aah.
Any disagreement is a violation (Score:3, Insightful)
Block China (Score:3, Informative)
Block every singe IP address from China.
Done deal.
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Yeah, because absolutely nobody has a way around Geo-IP blocks. Definitely not by using a tunneling VPN or SOCKS5 service running in a not-blocked country...
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I thought the great firewall was blocking VPN's now.
Though, I guess if you control the firewall...
I'm onboard with helping china with their firewall (Score:5, Funny)
This is extremely simple (Score:3)
If it's being actively weaponized by China, or if we wind up in a direct conflict with China, ban it just like we're currently sticking it to Russian companies
But it seems that we're not quite there yet. If it's just being used to gather data, than it's just another part of the internet surveillance system and the international media. We don't ban Russian news channels. Wy would we ban this? Maybe we could require every TikTok employee to register as a foreign agent.
Use by government people is another matter. The government is entirely within it's rights to ban their employees from using it, especially anyone within the DoD system. Want a secret clearance or better? No TikTok.
Private citizens? This is America, people. It's our god-given right to be a booger eating moron, and suffer the consequences. That is, literally, the American way. If half of our population is happy with the Emperor of China monitoring their video feed, why should the regulators get in the way.
Nothing else to see here. Move along.
Re:This is extremely simple (Score:5, Informative)
TikTok has ALREADY been actively weaponized by China. Who even knows when it started. But late last year they were caught (and forced to admit to) spying on US journalists, using the app to track their locations, and sending that data back to China.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/0... [nytimes.com]
https://www.theguardian.com/te... [theguardian.com]
https://www.forbes.com/sites/e... [forbes.com]
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/22... [cnn.com]
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Because TikTok DID send that data back up to ByteDance, which is in China. You'd know that if you'd bothered to read the posted articles. That means the data is in the hands of the CCP. There is no meaningful difference. Or have you not been paying attention for the last couple of decades?
And even if I were lying about the data being sent to China... and feel free to refute my sources with your own if you're going to make that accusation... it is still unacceptable for them to spy on and track journalis
Re:This is extremely simple (Score:4, Insightful)
I’ll stand by my larger point that we’re not in a hot conflict with China. Not like Russia. Ukraine is an old-school proxy war complete with war crimes and shooty things. Chinese intent shenanigans are different. That’s probably gonna get me downmodded here, but internet hacking just isnt as serious as a war crime.
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We do ban Russian news channels.
I had no problem finding this [wwitv.com] with Google. Granted, I don't understand a single word of Russian so I haven't a clue what they're talking about, but it seems completely accessible from inside the USA.
Need to stop giving FakeFuk free publicity. (Score:3)
What's the angle here? (Score:2)
What would a TikTok ban even look like. What would the law say that bans them. This is a huge nothingburger at best. At worst it grants new powers to some government agency that will allow it impose new regulations on ISPs.
Nothing forced about it (Score:2)
Divest and you can do business here. Don't and you can pull out of the US market. Your choice.
FAFO Moment (Score:2)
This is political theater & foreign fearmonger (Score:2)
What happened to everyone being equal under our laws? And needing to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of violating a law? You know, the tenets of our justice system that makes us better than the likes of authoritarian countries?
What laws did Tiktok violate? What evidence do we have that they did? If they violated a law, take them to court, and what we do with them will be straightforward. But we don't hear any of that, instead all we hear is accusation after accusation that they ar
Re: (Score:2)
So Trump was right. And Biden pursues the same policies but sugar coats them with political b.s. to make them palatable to the left wing.
Trump is hated for having a big mouth and being a bit of an asshole. But would we rather be told the truth (though our fee-fees got hurt) or get lied to and end up in exactly the same place?