US 'Won't Tolerate' China's Ban on Micron Chips, Commerce Secretary Says (reuters.com) 194
The United States "won't tolerate" China's effective ban on purchases of Micron Technology memory chips and is working closely with allies to address such "economic coercion," U.S. Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo said on Saturday. From a report: Raimondo told a news conference after a meeting of trade ministers in the U.S.-led Indo-Pacific Economic Framework talks that the U.S. "firmly opposes" China's actions against Micron. These "target a single U.S. company without any basis in fact, and we see it as plain and simple economic coercion and we won't tolerate it, nor do we think it will be successful." China's cyberspace regulator said on May 21 that Micron, the biggest U.S. memory chip maker, had failed its network security review and that it would block operators of key infrastructure from buying from the company, prompting it to predict a revenue reduction.
For real? (Score:5, Insightful)
I mean, think what you want of China, but didn't the US start this game of "sanctions", with Huawei and the like [stackexchange.com]?
What klnd of tough guy starts to cry when someone does the same thing to him?
That said, it's all a big show. Of course they will tolerate it, they just want to save face.
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Indeed. And they did it with claims of "backdoors!" which still have not been proven in any way. One would expect the US to have some people that could actually find these alleged backdoors if they were there and publish some evidence. Instead, nothing. By now a lot of other people will have looked. Again, nothing.
I have to admit I am disappointed. I actually had some expectations that I could learn how telco equipment can be backdoored, given that SS7 firewalls are a thing and that there is no need for ope
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Nonsense. You really do not understand how the IT security community works. It is not that hard to find placed backdoors. It certainly does not require the NSA. By now, if there were any, somebody would have found and published them. Instead, nothing. That is a very, very loud silence to anybody with an actual clue.
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I mean, think what you want of China, but didn't the US start this game of "sanctions", with Huawei and the like [stackexchange.com]?
What klnd of tough guy starts to cry when someone does the same thing to him?
That said, it's all a big show. Of course they will tolerate it, they just want to save face.
Are you kidding me? Hypocrisy is the number one tool in the US diplomatic arsenal!
Re:For real? (Score:5, Insightful)
USA has been issuing a sh*tload of sanctions against China in the last few years, while at the same time heavily relying on them for a lot of manufactured goods (cheap labor) and resources (offshoring pollution). And now that China is getting stronger and stronger, they impose more and more sanctions/limitations, like those around chip design softwares.
As the french say it, they want the butter, the butter’s money too, and the milk lady’s ass. Well, that's not how it works, at any level: between individuals (that was called slavery, and it is not in fashion anymore) or between countries.
China is just pushing back, and to be honest, they could do a lot more damage if they wanted.
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Re:For real? (Score:5, Interesting)
The Europeans are following the US's lead - probably necessary in the case of NATO countries - and the US have never at any time actually come up with any proof. They have had something along the lines of four years to analyse these devices and I think we can assume they would be screaming it from the rooftops if they had discovered anything at all. The original accusations were couched in terms of "they could" rather than "they are" because this was a purely political decision unsupported by any actual evidence.
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What if the Huawei backdoors are actually Cisco backdoors?
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The Europeans are following the US's lead - probably necessary in the case of NATO countries - and the US have never at any time actually come up with any proof. They have had something along the lines of four years to analyse these devices and I think we can assume they would be screaming it from the rooftops if they had discovered anything at all. The original accusations were couched in terms of "they could" rather than "they are" because this was a purely political decision unsupported by any actual evidence.
For a start, the USA doesn't need proof. It has enough leverage over the EU that they would go along with US sanctions etc just to stay friends.
The problem China has with Micron is a supply chain security issue, the sort of thing the USA has been beating its own drum on.
However, the US might not be screaming from the rooftops about backdoors in Huawei gear because... they might be using exactly the same kind of backdoors in US produced gear. And if it became public knowledge about what to look for, it'd be
Re:For real? (Score:4, Informative)
https://www.theguardian.com/bo... [theguardian.com]
Hacking world leaders phones
https://www.thelocal.de/201602... [thelocal.de]
The 96% of us who do not live in the USA know the USA is just as bad as China/Russia
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I thought the original reason was about how Huawei violated Cisco IP. The backdoor thing seemed like an afterthought to give the ban more weight, and maybe to push Europe into doing the same thing.
Micron's ban look like a direct retaliation. And yes, you can put backdoors into memory products, like into pretty much every piece of electronics today, but arguments on both sides are rather flimsy. It is a trade war, I don't think there is a need to look any further.
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Then slashdot will downmod anything intelligent said, while propping up the propaganda.
Looks as if they have made a good start with your comment being moderated "-1 Flamebait".
Although actually I would have rated it "+1 Interesting"
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That war with China has been beating much stronger ever since 2008. You've got Battlefield 2042 even talking about a world war which they say its between non patriated or non country affiliated people fighting each other but let's be real those people would not get around anywhere in the world if they refuse any world government.
It feels like the weird 1990's all over again right before 9/11 happened starting another war. This time though they may try to go old school and actually fight in the South East Asia sector and more.
How many major wars the USA has been involved with in the last 40 years and compare that with China...?
How many overthrows of governments, regime change and other coups d'etat the USA has instigated in its history and compare that with China...?
Ummm yeah I was starting to think about the pot calling the kettle black, but that would be a gross misrepresentation of the facts.
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The purpose of most of those coups was for business and resource reasons.
Does it matter if the governments were over thrown by the cia or just bought out with the ccp belt and road loan scam?
The USA stamps its feet and say's "not fair!" (Score:2, Insightful)
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Fusion of la Cuisine ! (Score:3)
Oh, oui, monsieur!
You must form ze strategique alliance of ze cuisine !
We French can teach you ze amazing recette of ze Coq au vin, our secrette weapon to help you close ze chicken gap and beat ze Chinese in ze poultry race!
Vive la France, and vive la French cuisine!
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I'm not so sure things are that dire. The proverb only refers to the preparation of geese and neither side has the clear culinary advantage there. They are more likely to use the Peking Duck, which while superior to our Fried Chicken is not available in anywhere near the same numbers. Furthermore, if NATO article 5 is invoked, we may certainly count on France's formidable Canard à l'Orange to help even up the score
I fail to see the problem (Score:2)
With more chips being produced domestic, not only does the US get more independent but it also means more jobs in the US.
Oh. Right. It cuts into the profits of the corporations. Can't have that, screw the jobs or the independence from openly hostile countries..
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What is needed is for ALL parts of a manufacturing line has to be working.
Re:I fail to see the problem (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I fail to see the problem (Score:5, Informative)
Not only that, the people who these profits go do play hardly nothing in taxes. But when they loose money in a Bank, the US Gov gives it all back to them.
For us, if we loose money, usually to a Corp., we get nothing but more taxes.
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What do you think everyone's 401k is invested in???
Re:I fail to see the problem (Score:5, Informative)
People do realize that "profits" are how employees get paid, right?
That turns out not to be the case. Profits are defined as what is left over to distribute to shareholders after all costs (such as salaries) are paid.
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Shareholders, like everyone's 401k? Their pension fund? Those shareholders?
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"cuts into the profits of the corporations. "
The continuous hate of US corps making a buck is baffling. People do realize that "profits" are how employees get paid, right? Is class warfare so strong that we must commit corporate suicide just so's some executives become pauperous, just to delight the masses and have-nots?
If an American company posts a big gain, I'm all like "yay." How do we make the lives of Americans better by being all negative about things like profits?
I often wonder how many jobs would be lost in the USA if it wasn't for the constant state of war.
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None. The money wasted on stupid wars could be used for useful things like rebuilding our infrastructure. We haven't had a serious infrastructure plan since before I was born.
Re: I fail to see the problem (Score:3)
First off, you remind me of Fry from Futurama...
Leela: Why are you cheering, Fry? You're not rich!
Fry: True, but someday I might be rich. And then people like me better watch their step.
Next, I know how being baffled feels! I'm the same way listening to my brother tell me that he got COVID and now he's going to have major issues making ends meet. Both he and his wife have full time jobs but both got sick. It's just baffling how they don't have a couple million set aside in the trust fund mommy and d
Re:I fail to see the problem (Score:4, Informative)
People do realize that "profits" are how employees get paid, right?
That is not true. Employees get paid from revenue, and are a tax-deductible expense to the company. Profits are revenues minus expenses. U.S. companies (and probably every other country's companies that are privy to similar tax structures as the U.S.) maximize expenses in such a way that the tax benefits flow upwards.
They are also, more often than not, structured so that big gains also flow upwards. That means that no matter what happens, the people at the top always benefit, and the people at the bottom don't see another dime no matter how many additional units Initech sells.
That's why large corporations are so hated in the U.S.
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And let's not forget: when a high-level corporate executive makes a stupid decision that costs the company millions or billions of dollars, he is rewarded with a higher salary while the low-level workers who were required to carry out said stupid decision get fired.
Pot (Score:3, Insightful)
Pot, meet kettle.
Where does this end? Clearly China is retaliating for what the US did to Huawei, ZTE, Hikvision, DJI, and others. I'm surprised it took them this long, perhaps they were hoping that Biden would discontinue the trade war started by his predecessor.
If the US retaliates against the retaliation, we are into and endless cycle. Neither side can win this one, the best they can hope for is to lose more slowly than their opponent.
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It's not even retaliation or not eye for eye type retaliation.
Micron can still be sold in China, just not for its infrastructure. Huawei is pretty much banned from the US in all form.
Micron can still be sold and used all around the world, but not in China for its infrastructure. However US went on a diplomatic campaign to force all other nations to stop doing business with Huawei under the threat of sanctions.
Re:Pot (Score:5, Informative)
Neither side can win this one, the best they can hope for is to lose more slowly than their opponent.
the western economies becoming less reliant on a giant dystopian monster that has potential to become a war rival, is a win. There are temporary issues like some products become more expensive, but this will bring long term benefits. Without even talking about bringing back the manufacturing jobs into the western countries, several locations in the Asia/Pacific areas can pick up the missing production capacity and and that are not ferocious dictatorship like China. Major foundries and electronics makers are located in Malaysia and Indonesia; these countries do not align with the values of the western society but contrary to China they don't appear to be a major threat for world peace or the democratic governance model.
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Major foundries and electronics makers are located in Malaysia and Indonesia; these countries do not align with the values of the western society but contrary to China they don't appear to be a major threat for world peace or the democratic governance model.
Ah, so you want countries where you can offshore your pollution, and benefit from poor working conditions, but you don't like when they get big enough that they can put you in harm way. You should have said that first. That's called offshoring slavery.
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so you want countries where you can offshore your pollution
Obviously I'm fine with having jobs in the west and keeping our pollution here as well. I selected countries that I know have semiconductor foundries and that are sufficiently democratic for good practices, including in terms of better wages and environmental protection, to prevail in the long term. You seem to base your notion of international politics on who can harm others. I don't. The problem with China is not that it can "harm me", it's that it's a danger for the world, that we (greedy westerners) hav
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Maybe the goal is to force Micron to move production to China.
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It does not cut China out of anything. The Chinese government issued a directive so that Chinese state organizations and state owned companies stop buying anything with Micron products. The directive says nothing about assembling electronics with Micron chips in them for export.
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The same argument applies to the US though. Europe shouldn't get too close to a country that elects people like Trump, impressions people without charge for decades, regularly violates human rights, doesn't respect privacy and data rights...
Let's be real for a minute. This has nothing to do with the CCP being monsters or whatever, it's a trade war that Western companies wanted when Huawei and several others made better products than them. Nobody seriously thinks that Cisco network gear is more secure, or th
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The same argument applies to the US though.
Which the EU is entirely aware of, especially when it comes to the US imposing differening philosophies on things like data privacy rights.
I think, though, the Trump argument cuts both ways. While the US Constitution allows someone to be elected president without even a plurality of voters (and, technically speaking, without *any* public input), it also severely resrtricts what a president is able to do with the office. In fact, it doesn't seem like Trump fully understood the limitations of the office whe
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Do you remember a Canadian company called Nortel? They entered into a partnership with Huawei, the end of the story was that Huawei had access to Nortel's IP and Nortel was dead. Embrace and destroy.
A lot of the Chinese excesses only seemed to start after this trade war had begun, although maybe the reporting of the same was ramped up at that point. I think we can assume China (Eastasia) has entered a semi-alliance with Russia (Eurasia) against Oceania because Eastasia's plans for Taiwan match what Euras
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If you check the details, Huawei copied some header files that were used for compatibility. Probably should have clean room recreated them, but the end result would have been the same.
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The last time China invaded anyone it went really horribly wrong for them.
I like how people treat this like a sport, as though "historical team stats" mean anything.
They don't even mean in anything in sport. There, it's just magical thinking.
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Europe shouldn't get too close to a country that elects people like Trump...
No one should get too close to a country that elects (for some idiosyncratic definition of "elects") people like Biden, Trump, Obama, either Bush, Clinton... all the way back. (With the possible exception of JFK).
As far back as you care to go, they were all rotating sons of bitches. Some rotated faster than others, that's all.
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The UK isn't any better. We had brexit, Boris, Truss...
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They're all SOBs but they're _our_ SOBs!
=]
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Pot, meet kettle.
That was the exact phrase that leapt into my mind as soon as I read the title of the summary.
Where does this end? Clearly China is retaliating for what the US did to Huawei, ZTE, Hikvision, DJI, and others. I'm surprised it took them this long, perhaps they were hoping that Biden would discontinue the trade war started by his predecessor.
If the US retaliates against the retaliation, we are into and endless cycle. Neither side can win this one, the best they can hope for is to lose more slowly than their opponent.
What you've said is sensible, and it seems both obvious and non-inflammatory. I'm still trying to figure out why you were down-modded.
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I don't hate China enough for some people's tastes, so they mod me down all the time. Obviously I don't like the CCP, but there's also a lot of crap said about China, and worst of all we are setting ourselves up to fail by whining instead of competing.
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Yes, both sides are doing the same thing, but that doesn't *necessarily* make them equivalent. The accusation against Huawei was that it puts backdoors in its products for the Chinese government. Whether or not that's actually true matters. Either side, both, or *neither* could be lying here -- e.g. the US *might* sincerely believe Huawei is doing this, and China *might* know it's not but be in a prove-a-negative situation. Or -- the US might be completely justified in targeting Huawei, although we shouldn
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At the time of writing we have absolute proof that the NSA and GCHQ have backdoors into US products.
As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence of secret backdoors in Huawei products. The closest anyone has come was the discovery of an admin account in some routers for the Italian market, but that appears to be a one off mistake rather than a systematic undermining of security. Not even as bad as hard coded Cisco accounts and the like.
I'm not taking sides here, I'm just pointing out the evidence we have and h
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Oh, the US definitely does it, but it has no legal authority to compel a company to put a back door in a product. It can trick them by sneaking a back door into a proposed crypto standard, or it can persuade the company to put one in. The US government is a definitely a threat to US citizen privacy; China would be more of a threat, EU countries probably less.
While I agree there is no public evidence for the Huawei backdoor, its existence has been treated as credible by multiple parties who woudl have seen
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Given what all comes from China these days and how utterly incapable the rest of the world is to replace that at acceptable cost, I would say starting a trade-war with China is pretty stupid.
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That's exactly what's happening right now. Factories have begun to move to Vietnam and India.
What magical thing does China have that India and Vietnam don't?
Nothing. It's just a matter of time to get out since the west spent so much effort and time getting in but it will happen.
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China has the only thing that matters: They are ahead.
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There's another difference: the USA needs China far more than China needs the USA. Which country has been importing more and more from the other one, because its own impoverished citizens can't afford anything but the cheapest? Which country has been exporting more and more of its critical industries to the other, because labour is cheaper there?
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Indeed. And while China is behind in high-tech, they are not behind in other areas and they can only be delayed in catching up in the high-tech sector by so much. At this time, the only one that can effectively sabotage China is China itself. Voting themselves an emperor will hopefully do that, but that may take a while to become effective.
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Uh... no.
American companies are already moving factories to other countries such as Vietnam and India. China has no special features that can't be had elsewhere. Once the bulk of manufacturing has moved, China is fucked.
It's just a matter of time until we start seeing ads asking for donations to feed the poor starving Chinese children. For just the price of a cup of coffee each day you can keep little Caihong fed and educated and she'll send you thank you letters twice a year for you generous help. Thin
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American companies are already moving factories to other countries such as Vietnam and India.
Do you know which other countries are moving their factories to other countries like Vietnam and India? China.
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Against China? Good luck with that.
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There's a big difference: we are America, ruler of nations, leader of the world. Anyone who opposes us will be destroyed utterly. Allies will be rewarded, opponents will be punished, those who don't want to choose sides will be nulled. The 21st Century and all centuries to come will belong to America. Accept it or die.
'Murica, fuck yeah! Here we come to save the motherfuckin' day yeaaaahhhhh
Should be the national anthem.
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It's international pump and dump. The US pumped up China, now it's dumping them. Combined with a population crunch (and millions of single males), China is in for a world of hurt. The only question is will China retaliate with a hot war.
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China has no way to conduct a hot war vs the US.
Their odds of taking Taiwan are slim. Going to the US mainland is an absolute impossibility.
Double standard? (Score:4, Interesting)
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-'for a few dollars more...'
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the corporate greed that caused the stupid outsourcing of everything.
People were free to vote with their money. There was a time when TV sets were still manufactured in the US. Others started to be manufactured in China. Guess what, people only bought the ones from China, because they were cheaper, and it gave them the short-term benefit of increased way of life. Except for the people manufacturing the TV sets in the US of course, but that was just a tiny fraction of them.
Reminds me of this poem [hmd.org.uk].
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It should be noted that the US banned Chinese equipment without giving any evidence as to backdoors and the like. One would assume the NSA, for example, would have such evidence if it was actually there. Now China bans US products without providing any evidence and suddenly that is wrong?
Sounds to me like "Mommy! They are fighting back! Waaaaaaaa!"
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Regardless if anyone has evidence of backdoors, the defacto standard should be: "The backdoor exists, we haven't found it yet!", unless it can be absolutely shown it doesn't.
When ever I work on embedded systems, I always build backdoors into products, because people always lock themselves out, or brick the system through stupidity. I use the same system to engineer the backdoor, that I wrote ~10 years ago, with updates for modern practices. It invol
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Well, I hope your employer is not active in any regulated industry, because doing that can get your company banned as supplier and fined rather heavily.
Incidentally, unless they get camouflaged as vulnerabilities (and hence _anybody_ can find and use them), backdoors are not that hard to find.
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No evidence is necessary. And if there is evidence they have no reason at all to shoe it to you and many reasons not to.
Is there evidence? I don't know and you don't either but at least I understand evidence is not necessary. This isn't a high school debate. This is a raw expression of geopolitical power.
Both countries do what they feel is in their best interest. This whole thing about proof and evidence is naive and childish.
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Just ist just bullshit and marks you as an "useful idiot". If there was evidence, somebody else would have found it by now and would have published it. There is far too much "hacker street-cred" to be gained for that not to have happened.
It's basic reciprocality (Score:2)
The US started the argument
They did not. Years before this, ever heard of Google, Facebook, Twitter, Twitch, Discord, Snapchat, Reddit, Tumblr, Dropbox, Medium, Wikipedia, Pinterest... .etc?
China banned them all way before Trump became president.
We can talk if some of them can get unbanned from the Great Firewall. The world is still *too generous* when it comes to banning Chinese products. A lot more can be done. Huawei, ZTE, TikTok should only be the beginning.
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Why do you believe either country needs a reason?
They do it because they feel it is in their best interest. No one needs to prove anything to anyone or convince anyone of anything. This is global power politics not a HS debate club.
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He Sould Threaten To Hold His Breath (Score:4, Funny)
He should threaten to hold his breath until China capitulates.
Memory (Score:2)
It's interesting this hasn't entered the debate yet but they are banning memory modules on the basis of national security.
We can debate whether sanctions against Chinese companies are on the basis of security concerns but not the potential.
Here however even the potential for Micron to produce anything that's a threat is in question... so the justification itself has been voided by any reasonable person.
Chinese companies are direct wings of the gov't. (Score:5, Insightful)
That doesn't exist in the US.
Huawei is an arm of the CCP spy/theft/sabotage apparatus - they are not equivalent. As such they don't need profits to exist. I am curious why the US gov't gives a shit about Micron though.
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am curious why the US gov't gives a shit about Micron though.
Because intel and Micron are the only American companies doing advanced design AND manufacturing (in their respective areas) 100% in ye'ole USoA.
AMD and Nvidia do Advanced Design there, but manufacture abroad.
Samsung and TSMC do advanced manufacturing in the USoA, but are from abroad.
The only "National Champions" In semiconductor Design AND Manufacturing (in their respective areas) are Intel and Micron.
PS: The USoA Govt' did not only sanction Huawei, but also (among many others) YMTC (Yangtze Memory Technol
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Zero worries if micron is critical to US military supply chain. Companies like that are simply not allowed to go out of business. They will be offered some big long term contract to keep them going.
You see the same thing at a larger scale for big ticket items like jet fighters. With only 3 major makers, the contract usually goes to one of the bidders that lost last time if their jet is viable.
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true, but US also mandates many classified actions to software and hardware builders, that is why you find NSA keys in windows and why Stuxnet was loaded in the printer firmware that was sent to Iran and why drug cartel leaders use dumb phones.
why can't that happen also in memory chips or cpu, they also have complex firmware
China and USA both do the exact same thing, yet both complain about the other one actions.
For the US gov, i just say:
For they sow the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind
Just what did they expect to happen (Score:2)
Gads, we have so many idiots in US government (Score:2)
yet, we object when China does the same???? Seriously?
This was EXPECTED.
What is needed is to quit focusing on company parts and instead, develop FULL STREAMS HERE.
That means, bring back manufacturing. Only AUTOMATE THE HECK OUT OF IT.
Sad thing is, that Gina Raimondo is NOT a goon squad type and actual
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This was EXPECTED.
Indeed. Only a blithering idiot would start a trade-war and expect the other side not to retaliate. Also, "tolerate"? This is the law in China, there is nothing to "tolerate". The US fired the first shot, China retaliates. This is how these things go.
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The problem is that our government has been ran by IDIOTS that have allowed CHina to run rough-shod on the west, but esp. America. Very stupid on our part.
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The US was founded on stealing manufacturing and military IP. Your point?
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Hopefully the US will continue moving factories out of China and leave their manufacturing sector in the dust.
How's that sound?
We shouldn't be trading with such grotesquely evil people anyway.
Don't play the game unless you're ready to fight (Score:3)
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a while; well this and passing legislation that gives billions to pet projects under the guises of "inflation reduction" is another story. If you get into a trade war with a nation that is systemically destroying your economy and deliberately provoking an all-out war, expect a fight. The question is are you playing to win or just get to neutral levels?
End favored trading status with China now.
Raise Import tariffs on all goods coming from China by 25%.
Ban Chinese investments in US land, natural resources, and industries.
Call bullshit on their so-called climate reduction initiatives when they're building new coal mines month after month [institutef...search.org] while we're shutting ours down.
Fight this to win.
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Too late, US already lost most of it industrial production
China already got assets in all over the US, including external debt. They can tank the dollar if they want, they will also lose huge amount of money, but the dollar would take a major hit and cause major problems (that in turn will block china from selling to USA, so also taking a hit)
It is the same as Russia selling gas to Europe, trying to play with those cards, both take a huge hit back
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They can't tank the dollar. Their economy would crumble to dust long before ours and they're find themselves with a violent uprising of 1.4 billion starving people. The CCP are evil not stupid.
There's nothing of note China can really do but wait for the inevitable sinking of their economy through their own ineptitude and corruption while we keep moving manufacturing out.
lol (Score:2)
oh look (Score:2)
the US don't like it when their own recipes are used against them...
what a bunch of whining hypocrits
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I do. I'm super happy about this. I hope China blocks and kicks out all US companies. That's a huge long term win for the US and China's economy will collapse.
What day is it? (Score:2)
Is it April 1 somewhere?
Like one needs evidence to sanction something these days. And pot calling the kettle black, etc, etc.
Nothing to see here.
-m
Frightening (Score:2)
But this is what they wanted? (Score:2)
Surely, stopping the "forced transfer of tech" is what the US wanted? "Suppressing China's rise" is what the US wanted?