Is Gen Z Giving Up on College? (msn.com) 404
Business Insider reports on "a soaring number of Gen Zers who has decided to skip college altogether.
"Four million fewer teenagers enrolled at a college in 2022 than in 2012." For many, the price tag has simply grown too exorbitant to justify the cost. From 2010 to 2022, college tuition rose an average of 12% a year, while overall inflation only increased an average of 2.6% each year. Today it costs at least $104,108 on average to attend four years of public university — and $223,360 for a private university.
At the same time, the salaries students can expect to earn after graduation haven't kept up with the cost of college. A 2019 report from the Pew Research Center found that earnings for young college-educated workers had remained mostly flat over the past 50 years. Four years after graduating, according to recent data from the Higher Education Authority, a third of students earn less than $40,000 — lower than the average salary of $44,356 that workers with only a high-school diploma earn. Factor in the average student debt of $33,500 that college graduates owe after they leave school, and many graduates will spend years catching up with their degree-less counterparts. This student-debt-driven financial hole is leaving more young graduates with a lower net worth than previous generations.
The widening gap between the value and the cost of college has started to shift Gen Z's attitude toward higher education. A 2022 survey by Morning Consult found that 41% of Gen Zers said they "tend to trust US colleges and universities," the lowest percentage of any generation. It's a significant shift from when millennials were in their shoes a decade ago: A 2014 Pew Research survey found that 63% of millennials valued a college education or planned to get one. And of those who graduated, 41% of that cohort considered their schooling "very useful" in readying them to enter the workforce — that's compared to 45% of Gen Xers and 47% of boomers who felt the same...
The focus now, especially in the midst of so much uncertainty in the economy, is on using college to prepare for a single, overriding goal: getting a good job.
The article argues this is transforming which classes get emphasized by both students and colleges. For example, in 2014 computer programming was only the 7th most popular major at U.C. Berkeley — but now it's #1. And the data science degree Berkeley created five years ago is now already its third most popular.
And meanwhile, "last year only 7% of Harvard freshmen planned to major in the humanities — down from 20% a decade earlier and almost 30% in the 1970s."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader yusing for sharing the article.
"Four million fewer teenagers enrolled at a college in 2022 than in 2012." For many, the price tag has simply grown too exorbitant to justify the cost. From 2010 to 2022, college tuition rose an average of 12% a year, while overall inflation only increased an average of 2.6% each year. Today it costs at least $104,108 on average to attend four years of public university — and $223,360 for a private university.
At the same time, the salaries students can expect to earn after graduation haven't kept up with the cost of college. A 2019 report from the Pew Research Center found that earnings for young college-educated workers had remained mostly flat over the past 50 years. Four years after graduating, according to recent data from the Higher Education Authority, a third of students earn less than $40,000 — lower than the average salary of $44,356 that workers with only a high-school diploma earn. Factor in the average student debt of $33,500 that college graduates owe after they leave school, and many graduates will spend years catching up with their degree-less counterparts. This student-debt-driven financial hole is leaving more young graduates with a lower net worth than previous generations.
The widening gap between the value and the cost of college has started to shift Gen Z's attitude toward higher education. A 2022 survey by Morning Consult found that 41% of Gen Zers said they "tend to trust US colleges and universities," the lowest percentage of any generation. It's a significant shift from when millennials were in their shoes a decade ago: A 2014 Pew Research survey found that 63% of millennials valued a college education or planned to get one. And of those who graduated, 41% of that cohort considered their schooling "very useful" in readying them to enter the workforce — that's compared to 45% of Gen Xers and 47% of boomers who felt the same...
The focus now, especially in the midst of so much uncertainty in the economy, is on using college to prepare for a single, overriding goal: getting a good job.
The article argues this is transforming which classes get emphasized by both students and colleges. For example, in 2014 computer programming was only the 7th most popular major at U.C. Berkeley — but now it's #1. And the data science degree Berkeley created five years ago is now already its third most popular.
And meanwhile, "last year only 7% of Harvard freshmen planned to major in the humanities — down from 20% a decade earlier and almost 30% in the 1970s."
Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader yusing for sharing the article.
I guess it takes a college degree (Score:5, Interesting)
student loan bankruptcy will fix an lot of stuff! (Score:3)
student loan bankruptcy will fix an lot of stuff!
Well, no. (Score:5, Informative)
You cannot generally discharge your student loans through bankruptcy. You have to file suit against your lender, and then successfully argue under the Brenner test for undue hardship, or totality of circumstances, depending on your region.
https://lendedu.com/blog/prove... [lendedu.com]
Re: (Score:2)
You cannot generally discharge your student loans through bankruptcy.
Which arguably should change and if changed would offer a path to resolve the student loan crisis almost overnight, without serving as a handout to the well off, but what do I know.... :)
Re: (Score:2)
It will never happen. If you're rich and you go bankrupt, not only is that fine, you can be president. But if you got too far in debt trying to build a life, suck it up, buttercup. Sucks to be you.
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No, Financial Institutions would stop loaning so much money.
Imagine if auto-loans were immune to bankruptcy. Cars would cost $300,000 each.
Tuitions Skyrocketed in the 90s because student loans were made immune to bankruptcy protections and predatory financial institutions started loaning too much money to ignorant and naÃve 18 to 20 year old kids.
Biden's been doing that for a ton of students (Score:2)
Biden's also gotten billions in fraudulent loans from diploma mills forgiven. Some of it on the tax payer dime, but not all of it.
Re: (Score:3)
So you're going to call names and say someone is ignorant when it is pointed out that the United States Senate is not a democratic institution, which can be gridlocked by a minority party deciding to use procedural bullshit to prevent a democratic vote?
And somehow that's not the very definition of "tyranny of the minority" and a threat to democracy?
Seems you don't know the core tenets of democracy, such as "the will of the people shall be done." When a majority votes for a guy at least partially (or despit
Re:Well, no. (Score:5, Informative)
You cannot generally discharge your student loans through bankruptcy.
That's because you can't repossess an education. I don't agree with the thought process, but I understand it. Which is why I believe we need a "truth in lending" for students going to college. Before anybody is accepted to go to college, the offer of admissions should clearly indicate their major and using historical data from the college during the past 10 years, indicate:
1. Percentage of students who drop out
2. Percentage of students who complete a degree in 4 years
3. Percentage of students who complete a degree in 5 years
4. Percentage of students who complete a degree in 6 or more years
5. Average college debt of the students, whether they graduated or not
6. Average college dept of the students, broken down by those who graduate in 4, 5, and 6 or more years
7. Average yearly income of the students graduating with the same major the applicant is being offered admissions to (or those who started undecided for the undecideds)
8. Minimum payment for the said loans
9. How many years it'll take to pay off the loans if the loans were calculated in today's interest rates
If they offer all that information and someone still wants to go to college, then so be it.
Re:student loan bankruptcy will fix an lot of stuf (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:student loan bankruptcy will fix an lot of stuf (Score:5, Interesting)
No... if you remove the random/arbitrary restriction on bankruptcy literally added *RIGHT* before tuitions began to skyrocket out of control, then financial institutions would stop loaning too much money to students.
That would lead tuitions to stagnate and in some cases, decline.
If the students *can't* get $300,000 in loans, then colleges *can't* charge $300,000 for tuition. This is what it was like from 1945 to 1995(ish). I *literally* paid $1,000 up to $2,800 per year for tuition from 1983 to 1992. Same school was already up to $12,000 per year by 2000. Today it's close to $28,000 per year.
Tuitions skyrocketed when restrictions on bankruptcy lead financial institutions to lend unlimited amounts of money to young kids. And pre 1995, bankruptcy rates for student loans were the same as for other popular loans. They did young kids dirty with this law.
Re:I guess it takes a college degree (Score:5, Interesting)
"if the country is lucky, universities will collapse..." Back to what ... Halls of Ivy for the privileged?
A look at the history of science shows that NOT ALL 19th-century science discoveries were made by people who had the privileged leisure-time to do so. Drive and self-education are important ... but so is opportunity ... EVEN for geniuses.
Take a look at the shit-ton of *extremely important* discoveries made by (highly motivated and highly poor and uneducated) Michael Faraday. Ever heard the name? When he was 14, he was apprenticed to a bookbinder for seven years.
"My education was of the most ordinary description, consisting of little more than the rudiments of reading, writing, and arithmetic at a common day school. My hours out of school were passed at home and in the streets. "
Then he got lucky: he was hired by chemist Humphry Davy (Davy started out as a poet and painter, then was hired as a lab assistant). Davy accidently blinded himself for a time, and needed a lab assistant. Apart from that luck, what would either of them have discovered while working 12-hour days 6 days a week?
We -were- wasting A LOT of talent before colleges opened themselves up to everyman. College -was much more- affordable in the mid-20th century. The benefits *to us all* have been remarkable (even if 'only' 25% took advantage of the chance, even if we're not aware of them). And now ... we're going back there, so fuck it?
Re: (Score:2)
Take a look at the shit-ton of *extremely important* discoveries made by (highly motivated and highly poor and uneducated) Michael Faraday. Ever heard the name?
Did he design and build cages?
Inventor of the Faraday cage (Score:3)
He did. Michael Faraday invented the conductive mesh cage in 1836 [wikipedia.org].
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You're making the mistake of assuming a college education is necessary to become a contributor to society.
In fact, it probably does the opposite. It destroys creativity and teaches you to believe things that are incorrect in some cases.
People who make great contributions will make them with or without a college education. The entire educational system is badly in need of reform and if it collapses, that will actually be a good start. From there, destroying educational paywalls and eliminating useless multi-
Re: (Score:2)
You're making the mistake of assuming a college education is necessary to become a contributor to society.
It's not necessary to become a contributor but in America it is a near necessity to earn more than a poverty wage. How many jobs mandate a degree? Even in the current labor market where everyone is bitching they can't fill positions? Now how many of those jobs actually require a degree? 20 years of experience and no degree? Eliminated before a human being sees your application. Degree and zero experience? Here's your six digit offer; welcome abroad!
It's particularly egregious in the tech industry, w
Re: (Score:2)
a college education [...] destroys creativity and teaches you to believe things that are incorrect in some cases.
While, of course, people without a college education are known for not holding incorrect beliefs. In fact, why limit ourselves to college education? If people who didn't go to college are less misguided than college alumni, think how closer to the real truth (the one that isn't taught in school, see) are people who didn't go to high school! Or even better, people who never went to any school at all! Those are the folks whose creativity is completely unspoiled, and whose beliefs are correct in all cases!
Abol
Re:I guess it takes a college degree (Score:4, Insightful)
"if the country is lucky, universities will collapse..." Back to what ... Halls of Ivy for the privileged?"
The aptly named Ivy League already is.
There will be a winnowing. Engineering and the hard sciences will stay college curriculums. The fluff will migrate to where it largely is already, finishing schools for idle rich who don't care about payback because theirs comes who they know, not what they know.
The original mission of the land grant universities was to educate students in engineering, the sciences, agriculture, forestry, and teaching teachers, narrowing the curriculum down is certainly possible.
STEM was affordable in 1980s (Score:3)
"if the country is lucky, universities will collapse..." Back to what ... Halls of Ivy for the privileged?
No, a State U where one can work part time during school and full time during the summer and graduate debt free. That was the case for STEM majors in the 1980s, in particular in the tech hubs that surrounded University of California campuses.
College was about getting a managerial job (Score:5, Insightful)
we have a ton-shit of college grads who are depressed to realize the best job they can get is assistant manager at a Sherwin Williams store.
When was it ever any different? If you were not a STEM major then college was merely a vehicle to enter the work force at a managerial level. You didn't study history expecting to work in a field related to history, you studied history to demonstrate you were part of the managerial class. Many entry level managerial jobs did not care what your degree was in, just that you had one.
Liberal arts majors used to not be in denial about this.
Re:College was about getting a managerial job (Score:5, Interesting)
In reality, this has not panned out, because not everybody can be the boss. At first people blamed kids who didn't major in STEM. Then when the environmental science and linguistic majors failed to get jobs, then they blamed kids for not taking the "hard sciences." Then when physicists, chemists, and biologists saw that their only career option is an infinite postdoc treadmill, then they were told "oh sorry, we just meant computers." Saying that college was always meant to prepare you to babysit teenagers in a retail store is a new level of college cope.
I had a buddy in graduate school from Iraq, who did his Bachelors in Engineeering in Iraq. I asked him once why he didn't just get an engineering job in Iraq, and he said that his Bacherors degree could only get him a job at his father's store. Any firms in Iraq that needed technical prowess were Chinese companies that exclusively employed Chinese. Strangely, he didn't believe that getting a job at his father's store put him in the managerial class!
Universities are not trade schools (Score:2)
To find out that they are far far too often not worth it.
If you went to State U the average debt is $250 a month for ten years.
https://money.usnews.com/loans... [usnews.com]
If you are a STEM major that should not be a problem.
If you are an Art History major at an Ivy League, you had better be from a rich family or find a sugar daddy, which has historically been pretty much the case. Don't expect the public to finance your vanity degree.
And, that for the most part, universities were never designed as vocational training.
Junior Colleges are the trade schools. Universities focus on theory and research, things that persist, not the implementation details
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hehe. When I was working a campus job 20 years ago, they were just as wokety-woke as now, but back then the subversive and rebellious party line was a bit different. I manned the dorm computer lab, and the university administration made us keep a box of free condoms for the students on our desks.
True, there was a lot of that going around even back then. Our first sexual harassment indoctrination was led by a pack of women's studies (before it was called gender studies) wymen, and boy howdy, did they hate the bearers of penises. They made a trainwreck with their intense misandry, and we were told that anything any woman believes is sexual harassment is by definition, sexual harassment. As well, a woman can claim sexual harassment by a man on another woman. Which s to say if a man hugs another woman
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I have spoken forbidden words No, just stupid ones. But you can't help it, your misogynistic conservative overlords told you to
You can always come back and discuss it.
You forgot the whole sentence:
"I have spoken forbidden words - Just watch the response to this post"
There's the issue. As I already wrote:
"Colleges are becoming man deserts. And the bizarre aspect is that the people who run them know the problem, they know why the problems exists, but the official narrative precludes them from mentioning it."
If you do not follow the official narrative, you are attacked. If you say the forbidden words, you are attacked.
They
Re: (Score:3)
Well spoken and thank you!!
This needs to be said...LOUDLY.
And, if you were to throw race into this too (as seems to be the popular thing now)....well, it really starts to drop certain categories of people out of the college loop even further.
See my response to the AC who simply dismissed my post as stupid and misogynistic. Ironically proving my point. Approaching it in the forbidden narrative is a real third rail topic.
In recent years, especially since 2007, women have been taught to actively hate men. Yet the urge to mate and reproduce is still strong for the hetero women, and it has left them in a state of confusion.There are a lot of TikTok vids to illustrate that point. Sometimes opting for the single mom approach - which makes things even
College (Score:5, Insightful)
Another thing is that college is just ONE path to education, not the ONLY path to education.
With the modern internet, we have endless possibilities for acquiring knowledge without acquiring debt.
just need to list non college on the resume in the (Score:2)
just need to list non college on the resume in the way that makes it look like an degree to get pass the bots or just lie and then tell the truth when you get to an real person
Re: (Score:2)
Re: just need to list non college on the resume in (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
I've only ever worked at one place that DIDN'T check, but then up until my 'relax, you're semi-retired now' job I always worked in high-security environments.
You think checking your school transcripts is bad? I had them interview my family out to two degrees of separation and every previous employer back to high school.
Re:just need to list non college on the resume in (Score:5, Interesting)
"Attended State U studying Electrical Engineering" (Score:2)
just need to list non college on the resume in the way that makes it look like an degree to get pass the bots or just lie and then tell the truth when you get to an real person
Easy enough. A friend used something like "Attended State U studying Electrical Engineering". He was a natural computer programmer (genuine interest) and got a job, spent spare time learning things that would help at work (again genuine interest helped). After about 8 years of that no one gave a shit about college, he had a reputation as something who built things that worked.
Regarding a previous comment about the self study path. This friend was one of the rare individuals who would spend his free time
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, but college proper is more credentialing that you come from a certain class to keep the riffraff out, and less that you have a demonstrable skillset.
I've already seen too many positions that went from having experience to requiring a bachelors or more.
GenZ is right to call BS on this, and hopefully they will still be able to take advantage when things change.
Self study is a fallacy for most (Score:5, Insightful)
With the modern internet, we have endless possibilities for acquiring knowledge without acquiring debt.
That is a fallacy, for most people that is. Those following the self-study path will routinely have gaps in their knowledge. They typically skip topics that they have no interest in, while those going through a formal degree program will be forced to take the boring but useful class.
Very few people have the curiosity and self discipline necessary to accumulate the equivalent knowledge as someone going through a formal degree program.
I am speaking as someone who has done both. A couple years of formal, dropped out, work full time in software field for years, finish formal, work a little more, have company pay for grad school, etc.
Who's gonna hire you? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
I think younger generations are realizing that an education often isn't worth it anyway. They still get stuck with crappy low paid jobs, with the primary way of advancing being to switch company.
The rewards they were promised don't come either. Housing is unaffordable, climate change costs are being dumped on them, and the opportunities just aren't there. We are already past the point where they can look forward to a pleasant future and comfortable lifestyle, not that the advice they were given about how to
What if college gave up on kids long ago? (Score:2)
What if you can self-educate now because ChatGPT probably hallucinates with the consensus just as much as your physics prof?
AI and population growth (Score:3)
Pay differential coming later and later (Score:4, Insightful)
Over the course of a career, those with college degrees are likely to increase salary faster over time, and eventually pay off college debts, but that benefit will come far later in life than it used to. In the meantime, those who elected not to go to college may actually enjoy a modest lead in take home pay, since they won't have the college debt to start with, and they will start earning it about four years earlier.
Re: (Score:2)
College probably still helps in overall career earnings, but less so right out of college the way it used to. There are two simultaneous changes that make this true. One is the increasing cost of college, the other is in the inflation of unskilled labor salaries, driven upwards by societal pressure and drastic minimum wage changes. (For example, NYC's trajectory toward a $20/hr minimum for pizza delivery: www.convenience.org [convenience.org] ) Because there's little corresponding push for increase in salaries for entry level positions that need college graduates, the initial pay differential that used to be there has dwindled, at least when you consider takehome pay after college loan repayments.
Over the course of a career, those with college degrees are likely to increase salary faster over time, and eventually pay off college debts, but that benefit will come far later in life than it used to. In the meantime, those who elected not to go to college may actually enjoy a modest lead in take home pay, since they won't have the college debt to start with, and they will start earning it about four years earlier.
Jimmy Donaldson is a college drop-out. He probably makes a LOT more than most people with college degrees
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
This is the kind of career path that those Gen-Zers aspire to, and it has VERY little to do with a college education.
If they haven't they should (Score:3)
Outside of specific careers, like law or medicine or accounting, a 4 year degree simply isn't necessary for many jobs. And I say this as someone with two degrees.
For a young person today looking to learn programming, computer networking or cyber security there are plenty of good boot camp type courses that can get you well on your way. From there you are going to have to augment your education with additional courses and work experience. By the way, a lot of these course are free.
Without a 4 year degree, or advanced degree, the chances of you making it to CIO are slim to none unless you found your own company. But you can still make your way up to a very senior technical position or management position without a degree. The degree helps you get your foot in the door but advancement often requires good communication skills and good networking skills. You might learn some of that in college but maybe not.
If i were a young person today i would probably skip college, particularly given the cost. I'm not saying that college is worthless - far from it - it's just that a lot of what you used to have to go to school for is now available at a lower cost or even free. Being 22 years old with $200,000 in student debt is not a good start to your working career.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm still torn on it; I'm gen-X and my Gen-Z godson doesn't intend to go to college. He is doing a work/travel year to Australia now, and hopefully that will give him some perspective.
The demographic challenge is pretty real though; Gen-Z is going to need to be able to do at 30 what Gen-X (and Millenials generally) were expected to do at 40. Short-term there is a big incentive coming from a number of directions to get kids straight into the workforce... but in 10-15 years that could backfire badly. So, w
Written by someone who couldn't get into college? (Score:4, Interesting)
> From 2010 to 2022, college tuition rose an average of 12% a year, while overall inflation only increased an average of 2.6% each year.
Uh, no. The source says "College tuition inflation averaged 12% annually from 2010 to 2022." They don't define "tuition inflation", but it's definitely NOT how much tuition rose each year.
The numbers given are $22074 in 2010 to $30031 in 2021 (unadjusted for inflation), an increase of 36% over 11 years. That's an increase of about 2.9%/year (compounded). If one takes the stated constant dollar cost (i.e. inflation adjusted), $28158 and $30031, it's increased about 0.6%/year. Where do they get 12% per year from?
It also says "The cost of tuition at public 4-year institutions increased 9.24% from 2010 to 2022.", but that's not even close to what either the unadjusted (36%) or adjusted (6.6%) numbers show.
The whole thing is total nonsense. Take this: "Over that same period (2010-2020), tuition increased by 9.24%, and tuition inflation increased by 15%." and, just to put a cherry on top: "All nonprofit postsecondary institutions reduced tuition by 38% from 2010 to 2020; average tuition increased by 13% in that same period."
Maybe that is good. College isn't for everyone (Score:5, Insightful)
There are many paths to success AND success is not measure by money. No reasonable person majors in history or astrophysics, or paleontology because the see it as a path to money - they do it because they want to be Historians, Astrophysicists or Paleontologists. The ide of measuring the usefulness of college in terms of return on investment is not appropriate in many fields. There are of course fields were the goal IS to maximize income and sometimes college works for that.
People who want careers that require college should go to college, those who do not shouldn't. I have no problem with college admissions declining
Not quite as expensive as the headline says (Score:2)
According to US News, public in-state tuition and fees average $10,423 per year. https://www.usnews.com/educati... [usnews.com] Another source says $11,744. https://www.collegetuitioncomp... [collegetui...ompare.com] Either way, those numbers don't add up to anything close to the $104K the article states.
Yes, there are certainly ways to spend 100K+ on college. Going to a big-name school, for example, especially if you go out of state. But if what you want is an education, choose a nearby in-state school. It's still not cheap, but a lot more affo
Re: (Score:2)
Ha! An average Ivy is $65k per year + $15k room and board and let’s say another $5k for incidentals and you’re at $85k per year.
Now imagine if your kid wants to go to medical school. You’re looking at $700-800k+ before they start earning a salary.
I am fortunate that I can afford to pay this for my kids - one of whom does want to be in medicine - but I struggle to understand how this is practical for the bulk of the middle class.
Re: (Score:2)
If you're rich enough to send your kid to an Ivy League school, then this article has no relevance to you. Ivy League is *not* required to get a good education or a good job, in *any* field. Ivy League is best for bragging rights.
As for medical school, the average cost is $57K per year, and the total average cost is about $230K. https://www.kaptest.com/study/... [kaptest.com].
As with anything, you *can* pay a lot more for prestige. But if cost is an object for you, you do *not* need to pay $800K for an education.
acceptance rates going down? (Score:2)
I struggle with these doom and gloom predictions about college when the acceptance rate at Stanford is 4%, the acceptance rate for some ivy league schools is 5% and certainly no more then 10%, and even schools like UCLA and USC are 15%. It’s a tough climate for many talented student.
My daughter wants to get into a program at a particular school and the acceptance rate of this program is 2.5%
And the prices are pretty crazy at many of these top schools. Upwards of $85k PER YEAR including room and bo
What is behind the cost? (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Republicans. Since the 80s they CUT FUNDING IN HALF which doubled the cost. In my state boomers could pay like $300 per semester at a state university and work a min wage job and do ok (while eating organic food) without incurring any debt. Now you can't hardly survive on min wage living in a dorm; forget tuition...
The loan system is partially privatized and poorly regulated (sold out) which amplifies the net cost greatly. Not that the Dems haven't helped create more admin jobs and top heavy bloat alone w
In the USA? Yes. Because ... (Score:3)
... even USians are capable of basic math. Especially for white hetero men the cost/risk/benefit ratio of going to college is so broken you might as well avoid it all together. I'd say by now everyone understands what Peter Thiel was preaching a few years back.
If I were a young man in the US today, I'd avoid US college like the plague and either learn a trade or relocate to Europe to get my degree there.
Re: (Score:2)
I don't care how much of a cantankerous old bastard this makes me sound like. If they don't got the basic self-awareness to understand what serves them and what doesn't, they can fuck themselves. Which they apparently are.
Education is not something other people give you. Either take it or don't, you punk-ass bitches.
--
Funny how enemies of democracy never shut up or stop voting. They just tell everyone else to.
You don't care how your sig makes you sound like [sic] either, apparently.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
If they don't got the basic self-awareness to understand what serves them and what doesn't, they can fuck themselves. Which they apparently are.
You seem to have the fuckee and the fuckor confused. Today's young will find ways to use the tech we now have available to build both the job skills and cultural background knowledge they need without the exorbitant tuitions that you pride yourself on having paid. Given reasonable rates of savings return over their careers, that saved tuition will buy them the cushy retirement you missed by overspending on stadiums and bloated administrations.
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Well, good luck with that.
On first jobs...where you have no experience....if you don't have a degree for anything tech, your resume will immediately go to the circular bin.
Having a degree or not, is usually the first filter used to weed out applicants and I don't see that changing any time really soon.
Re: (Score:3)
Uh no.
I regularly interview candidates for tech jobs in a FAANG company and we couldn't care less if they have a degree. We look for the knowledge required to onboard to the level they interview to, with full awareness that most of their working knowledge will come from our onboarding training. We just want to make sure they're able to acquire the necessary knowledge within the boundaries of our onboarding process. For that, behavioral interviews are even more useful than technical ones.
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If you do indeed do this.
Re:Fuck 'em. (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently many of them do understand that college is not as likely to get them a highly paying job as it was for their parents. A completely rational decision.
Re:Fuck 'em. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Fuck 'em. (Score:4, Funny)
Did you forget your metamucil this morning?
Re: (Score:3)
Feel free to pay their tuition if you think it's so important.
Re:Fuck 'em. (Score:5, Insightful)
You aren't being reasonable.
Every choice is a cost-benefit trade-off. College used to be a good tradeoff, but at 5 times the cost I'm not sure it still is. They've turned it into a hyper-expensive trade school. The idea used to be that society benefited by having a large educated citizenry, so it was reasonable for society to make this affordable. This seems to have been abandoned under the guise of efficiency. (I blame Clark Kerr for pushing this, but he was just pushing something that was already a tendency.)
Can you predict which jobs won't be automated into a totally different form within a decade? Most people cant'. I can't. Then why should someone shoulder a huge non-dischargeable debt to acquire a skill that me be obsolete by the time they earn their degree? Saying "because it worked for my parents, when they were my age" is ignoring the vastly changed circumstances.
Re: Fuck 'em. (Score:3)
The student to administrator ratio then vs now demolishes any pretext of efficiency in higher Ed
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"They've only reduced..."
Prove it.
You can claim ANYTHING.
Doesn't mean it's TRUE.
Also, doesn't it show the basic dysfunction in the system if the "saving grace" is "I didn't get raped or commit suicide"?
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That seems unlikely.
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Found an old article [beobachter.ch] about it.
The gist is that parents are scared by insurances, politics and sensationalist media into thinking everything and everyone is out to hurt their little baby.
Student debt is $250 / month over ten years (Score:3)
This seems to have been abandoned under the guise of efficiency.
Untrue, they have become quite inefficient. Way too much administration. Way too much concern with the frivolous. Way too much in the way of vanity projects (every new building has to be striving for some architectural award).
Can you predict which jobs won't be automated into a totally different form within a decade?
This is why universities are NOT supposed to be trade schools. Junior colleges do that. Universities are supposed to be more theoretically oriented. Stuff that continues regardless of what the computer operating system of the era is, whether a task is performed manually or is automated
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It's not as huge as it is commonly believed. For public universities the average is $24,650, which a $250 monthly payment for 10 years. For private for-profit the average is $33,620, a monthly payment of $341.
That is per year, and doesn't paint a perfect picture either. Four years, in-state public, is about $156,000. A 10 year loan at 4.99%, which from what I see is the low end, comes out to $1650 a month.
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but at 5 times the cost I'm not sure it still is.
Depends on the field... I certainly wouldn't pay that for a field that has shit pay... Go into STEM fields, and you'll make bank though - totally worth it if you can make it through. But getting a shit degree was always a bad investment even when college costs were lower.
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Even in STEM it's a big gamble. Currently there's a high payoff, but will this be true in another decade? Consider the efforts being directed into AI programming. Currently it's not that useful, but will you gamble your life that it won't be "good enough" in a decade? I could have mentioned many other fields, but at this site there's been enough discussion of the "co-pilot" and other automated programming that people are sort of aware of those.
Note that you aren't gambling that all of these efforts will
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College used to be a good tradeoff, but at 5 times the cost I'm not sure it still is
I disagree. The median annual income increase for millennials who go to college is ~$25,000. If you go to the average private school that's an ROI of 11% per annum. For state schools it's 25%. Even if you pay sticker price at the most extortionate private school (and almost no one does, because of financial aid) that's an excellent investment.
Re:Fuck 'em. (Score:4, Insightful)
Young people are being brainwashed by arrogant corporatists who deny basic concepts of humanity, civilization, and common good.
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I remember when I had enough hope for the future to be a capitalist. Good times.
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What part of capitalism has anything to do with "hope for the future"? These two things are completely unrelated.
Capitalism will exist in times of feast and famine. It is not related to any utopian doctrine.
Re: Fuck 'em. (Score:2)
Is it worth going into a lifetime of debt ... education is not given away
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Too many kids at school (Score:4, Insightful)
Perfectly sane market adjustment. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know, I think we may just be seeing the market correct itself.
Back in the 60s when a degree cost you a year or two salary and less than 8% of the population had one (40% and only 40% had a high school diploma), it was definitely worth it.
Then we had a couple generations of marketing degrees as a golden ticket to a good career and jacking up the price... until we reached the point that over 40% of the population now has a degree, and getting it probably puts you in debt for decades.
There's simply no longer enough jobs requiring a degree for the number of people who have one, and as a result we see bullshit like job listings preferring a degree for unloading boxes, etc.
The value of a degree is based largely on its scarcity, and that scarcity no longer exists.
---
Meanwhile, all the trades - plumbers, electricians, construction, etc. are seeing a shortage of workers, and pay rates higher than what most college graduates can expect, WITHOUT requiring people to carry crushing debt to get into the field.
All of which combines to mean that if you're not in the 10-20% that have the skill and passion to really dive into academia, your financial future may be much brighter if you simply give college a miss - it has nothing to offer you compared to the price it demands.
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The earnings from a college degree or still larger than the cost even accounting for the interest on the loans.
This is true on average. However, some majors and careers have better returns, and some low-earning majors earned at high-cost colleges may take a very long time to break even.
Part of the problem is the cost part of the equation. Paying $70k/year for tuition in a high-cost city is very expensive. However, there are many states that offer either free or very low cost community college with options to transfer to a four-year college or for associate degrees or other certifications. Unfortunately, that low
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
However, some majors and careers have better returns
CS and engineering have the highest return.
Fine art has the lowest.
This is what anyone with common sense should already know.
But "correlation-is-not-causation" applies here. Smart ambitious people who pick good majors are the same people who would likely have done well even without college.
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also important to remember that a university education is not job training. I work with many fellow engineers in the department with their EE degrees (I only have a math associates) who have never built a practical circuit to save their lives, but they can optimally tune a control loop on paper given fixed operating conditions and a transfer function. Never mind that neither of those things will exist in a real world application, but that is what they learned to do in their control systems class.
I do a lot of programming in my job, in specialized languages for control computers as well as C and C++ on the workstations, yet have never taken a formal programming class in my life. I do have a lot of programming books on my bookshelf at home though, many of them a little ratty from multiple readings.
The best kind of education you can get at a university is really the most well-rounded one that you can sustain an interest in. Gain exposure to music, art, history, literature, mathematics and sciences. Almost nothing you learn in your degree program is going to be directly applicable to your professional work, but having that broad base of knowledge to draw from will help you solve problems all your life. The most important skill you need to develop is an enjoyment of learning and how to teach yourself complex topics.
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Informative)
university education is not job training
That depends on the university. Where I studied, I was in a co-op program: one semester school, one semester work. The idea being that you would learn to apply your course material in your job. Where I currently teach college, students must do practical industry projects as part of the curriculum. So you can get degrees that have a practical orientation.
Of course, the big universities are generally more "ivory tower": teaching theory, because practical applications don't get research grants. Those are also the universities where professors who "just" teach are treated as second class citizens. Dumb, but that's the way it is.
There are basically no fine arts degrees (Score:3)
As I mentioned on another comment the myth that we're awarding lots of useless degrees is just that, a myth. It's basically almost all STEM, law & business with a tiny sliver of those "fine arts" degrees.
And honestly studying art is a great way to learn critical thinking if/when it doesn't come naturally. We should be doing more of it, not less.
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being awarded. What few there are end up as teachers. You can find the stats online easy enough by searching for Degrees Awarded by Major.
You have to use a pretty loose definition of STEM to include things like marketing, psychology, communications, and business to make such a claim.
Nobody's going into those careers (Score:2)
80% are STEM, Law or Business. All high return.
What's left is marketers (those communications degrees) which are *very* high return, a handful of social workers (read: parole officers) and teachers. There is a very, very tiny sliver of racial studies
Now, you're right about teachers, but how fucked up is that? Who the hell is supposed to teach the next generation? Do you want your kids (a
Re: Bullshit (Score:3)
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So we finally get killbots?
Can they be female?
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Re: Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
This is not true, silvergun.
NYT (paywalled) ran a piece on that. Only in increasingly small and narrow parameters does the debt shell-game get made up for with the higher earnings potential.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/0... [nytimes.com]
The real problem, is demanding 4yr college degree to use a stapler. It has compounding, knock-on effects.
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The real problem, is demanding 4yr college degree to use a stapler.
Honest question (I'm not from US), what about shorter degrees? The paper opposes College vs High School. Isn't there a middle way? I expect people who for example want to work in sales and do a career (more than refilling shelves and scanning barcodes), to take a 2 year higher training after graduation, at a local technical/vocational school. Everyone with ambition needs basic knowledge of their field, but it does not have to be a Masters.
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Community colleges in the US offer relatively low-cost 2-year associates degrees. The problem is that except for a limited set of careers (nursing used to be one of them, along with accounting) they don't work. Even in those cases, the 2-year degree is limiting career-wise. But, it can give you time to work in the field and earn money before spending more on a more advanced degree. It is also a common way to save money on bachelors degrees by transferring to a 4-year program afterwards.
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The paper opposes College vs High School. Isn't there a middle way?
Most people in the U.S. who go to College/University do so because it's a requirement to get a job that pays above-poverty salaries. Four-year degrees are usually the minimum requirement, and anything less is treated as nothing better than a high school diploma.
H1-Bs means a 4 year degree isn't going away. (Score:2)
There's a reason why the nytimes pitchbot exists. They're a rag and have been for sometime.
That accounts for around 80% of all degrees (per the stats on Degrees Awarded by Major). What's left are a handful of social workers (read: par
Re: Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/v... [forbes.com]
First off - let me acknowledge that college costs are out of control in the US, not everyone should get a degree, not everyone needs a degree, plenty of people are perfectly successful without it, Uncle Sam's insane college lending program has contributed to the current shitshow, and mass loan forgiveness will just amplify the cost problems.
But...
The anti-college crowd in this forum has a massive case of survivor bias. As a field, CS is currently highly anomalous. The computer world is growing so obscenely fast at the moment, that anyone who
a) has average math skills
b) has the attention span to read and understand the first 5 chapters of a CS 101 textbook
c) has a halfway decent work ethic
d) is not a monster
Can land a CS job that leads to a 200k/year job after 5-10 years of experience.
To all the people who fit this mold, I can't stress this enough: You are an ANOMALY. Your field is currently an ANOMALY. You live at an AMOMALOUS point in time. Most other fields are NOT LIKE THIS. Your interest in coding coincides with one of the fastest explosions of tech development in all of human history. You can't do this in engineering. Not in medicine. Not in law. Not in finanace. If you're incredibly hard working and lucky, you can manage it in business or construction or real estate. But this insane rate of development in computers is unique and likely to be short-lived.
For every university-hater that works their way up to a 300k/year computer position, there are a dozen "self-taught" bootstrappers who wind up on the bottom third of the bell curve economically. If you managed it, congrats. I really mean it. But you probably don't even realize that you basically rolled a 20-sided die and came up with a 19 or 20. Not everyone will.
Universities will be here long after we're all dead, and they'll be playing largely the same education role that they've played for the last 500 years.
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This is not true, silvergun. NYT (paywalled) ran a piece on that. Only in increasingly small and narrow parameters does the debt shell-game get made up for with the higher earnings potential.
No. For those going to State U the national average debt is $24,650 with a $250 a month payment of 10 year.
https://money.usnews.com/loans... [usnews.com]
The real problem, is demanding 4yr college degree to use a stapler. It has compounding, knock-on effects.
Entry level management/administrative jobs have historically used a 4-year degree as an indicator that one could learn necessary skills and function is a boring bureaucratic environment long enough to complete a complex task. If you are expecting anything more from a non-STEM degree you need to reconsider your choices.
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I have only an associate's degree. I never completed my undergrad degree because university is expensive and I don't fit the demographic requirements to get assistance. In other words, I am white, male, and my father had a normal lower-middle class job making somewhere in the $40k/year area. The lady in the financial aid office literally laughed when I asked about getting aid. While I was getting my associate's degree, I worked both for the math department as a peer tutor in the math lab and also the federa
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There are a lot of variables here. I couldn't have succeeded without a university degree (in statistics, which I've never used, as I was a programmer). But I taught a friend which a high school level degree to program, and he was a lot more successful than I at the career of programming. (I doubt that he was as good a programmer, but he quickly switched into management. It was getting that toehold into the job market that he needed.)
OTOH, I am a total failure at management, because I have no interest in
The military is always an option (Score:4, Interesting)
A former manager did so in the middle of the Vietnam War. Went into the Air Force and became an electronics technician. Had an overseas combat deployment to a safe country where the big airbase was located and waved to the officers/pilots taking off heading into harms way far away. After waving he would head off to the air conditioned enlisted club and get a beer. Back in the states he was lived in "barracks" (actually dorms) to save money and saved for college. After getting out he got an Electrical Engineering degree and a pretty cheap home loan.
My father was not academically gifted but was mechanically inclined enough to enlist in the Army as a mechanic for heavy equipment. Now he was at greater risk for the shit hitting the fan and needing to keep a rifle near his toolbox compared to my former Air Force manager, but even so it was a pretty remote possibility. And it set him up nicely for a civilian job.
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Damn straight. While the college students are racking up debt, military members are also getting an education and getting paid for it. At the end of four years when college students are just graduating and starting their job search, the typical enlisted member is already earning $55k a year if you include the BAS and BAQ (meals and housing allowances) and probably has an associate degree if they want. Four years after that, the article says about 30% of graduates are earning less than $40K while the typi
Re: Bullshit (Score:2)
This claim is based on averaging high paying fields and lower paying fields into one lump sum. Most English and psych/so biology majors will not pay off the debt. Most engineers will.