Nine US States Are Teaming Up To Accelerate the Adoption of Heat Pumps (wired.com) 209
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Wired: Death is coming for the old-school gas furnace -- and its killer is the humble heat pump. They're already outselling gas furnaces in the US, and now a coalition of states has signed an agreement to supercharge the gas-to-electric transition by making it as cheap and easy as possible for their residents to switch. Nine states have signed a memorandum of understanding that says that heat pumps should make up at least 65 percent of residential heating, air conditioning, and water-heating shipments by 2030. ("Shipments" here means systems manufactured, a proxy for how many are actually sold.) By 2040, these states -- California, Colorado, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, and Rhode Island -- are aiming for 90 percent of those shipments to be heat pumps.
"It's a really strong signal from states that they're committed to accelerating this transition to zero-emissions residential buildings," says Emily Levin, senior policy adviser at the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management (NESCAUM), an association of air-quality agencies, which facilitated the agreement. The states will collaborate, for instance, in pursuing federal funding, developing standards for the rollout of heat pumps, and laying out an overarching plan "with priority actions to support widespread electrification of residential buildings."
Instead of burning planet-warming natural gas, a heat pump warms a building by transferring heat from the outdoor air into the interior space. Run it in the opposite direction, and it can cool the inside of a building -- a heat pump is both a heater and AC unit. Because the system is electric, it can run off a grid increasingly powered by renewables like wind and solar. Even if you have to run a heat pump with electricity from fossil-fuel power plants, it's much more efficient than a furnace, because it's moving heat instead of creating it. A heat pump can save an average American household over $550 a year, according to one estimate. They've gotten so efficient that even when it's freezing out, they can still extract warmth from the air to heat a home. You can even install a heat pump system that also warms your water. "These states are aiming to further collaborate with those heat pump manufacturers by tracking sales and overall progress, sending a signal to the industry to ramp up production to meet the ensuing demand," reports Wired. "They'll also collaborate with each other on research and generally share information, working toward the best strategies for realizing the transition from gas to electric."
"Basically, they're pursuing a sort of standardization of the policies and regulations for getting more heat pumps built, bought, and installed, which other states outside of the coalition might eventually tap into."
"It's a really strong signal from states that they're committed to accelerating this transition to zero-emissions residential buildings," says Emily Levin, senior policy adviser at the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management (NESCAUM), an association of air-quality agencies, which facilitated the agreement. The states will collaborate, for instance, in pursuing federal funding, developing standards for the rollout of heat pumps, and laying out an overarching plan "with priority actions to support widespread electrification of residential buildings."
Instead of burning planet-warming natural gas, a heat pump warms a building by transferring heat from the outdoor air into the interior space. Run it in the opposite direction, and it can cool the inside of a building -- a heat pump is both a heater and AC unit. Because the system is electric, it can run off a grid increasingly powered by renewables like wind and solar. Even if you have to run a heat pump with electricity from fossil-fuel power plants, it's much more efficient than a furnace, because it's moving heat instead of creating it. A heat pump can save an average American household over $550 a year, according to one estimate. They've gotten so efficient that even when it's freezing out, they can still extract warmth from the air to heat a home. You can even install a heat pump system that also warms your water. "These states are aiming to further collaborate with those heat pump manufacturers by tracking sales and overall progress, sending a signal to the industry to ramp up production to meet the ensuing demand," reports Wired. "They'll also collaborate with each other on research and generally share information, working toward the best strategies for realizing the transition from gas to electric."
"Basically, they're pursuing a sort of standardization of the policies and regulations for getting more heat pumps built, bought, and installed, which other states outside of the coalition might eventually tap into."
They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:3, Interesting)
We literally just had a new multi-stage (2 for AC and variable for gas) unit installed. In many of those states, you'll still need a supplemental gas unit for the many days and nights when the heat pump just won't cut it. If there had been a significant incentive, we'd have given it more consideration. One thing our state does give incentive for is insulation. Our attic is going from R13 to R38 next week, partially paid for by our state.
Re:They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:5, Informative)
They work just fine in the Nordic countries. https://www.euronews.com/green... [euronews.com]
https://www.theguardian.com/en... [theguardian.com]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
From the link you offered...
According to a study by the independent group Regulatory Assistance Project (RAP), air source cold-climate heat pumps can be up to twice as efficient as electric heating when outdoor temperatures fall to -30 Celsius.
The typical claim is that heat pumps are "up to" four times as efficient as resistance heat. That's true but efficiency falls with outdoor temperatures. I have a heat pump and it did well for heating in mild weather until the control unit broke, since then it had no ability to switch between fossil fuel heat and heat pump so the heat pump only provides cooling. The heat pump was sized for cooling in part because the primary purpose was cooling than heating, and because 2-stage
Re: (Score:3)
I can't help but think that there's something wrong with your logic.
If you're installing a much bigger heat pump in order to increase efficiency, I'd think that power use would actually go down, because it's a more efficient unit. I think the primary size driver would be the outside condenser unit - it's a big heat sink, essentially. The bigger it is, generally speaking, the more efficient it is, though increases drop off after a point.
If you can heat your home with resistive heat, then no matter how big
Re: They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
with R60 and R100 insulation values in building codes, heat pumps are more than adequate, not to mention how they can run off of roof top solar so no grid, EVs can be used as battery walls and not to even mention passive solar
people, we've all been cheated by Big Energy who do everything they can to keep us from being energy self-sufficient
what we have now is just classism, corporatocracy and corruption in action
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
- My heat pump broke.
- I need a heat pump four times the size I bought in case there are Siberian temperatures.
- My wires aren't thick enough for such a big heat pump.
- Nordic countries have hydro & nuclear.
- Gas emits less CO2 than oil.
- I know very little about where my electricity comes from or what options are available.
Yeah, very convincing line of thinking you've got there.
Re: (Score:2)
If you live in a climate that gets bad snaps you're system has auxillary heat. This isn't exotic, it's a nonissue.
Re: (Score:3)
And guess what is going to happen to the grid, especially in countryside, once everyone switches to 100% resistive heating in extreme cold weather.
This is only sentence that matters and there are way, way more solutions to this than "burn coal at home", plus coal emissions are terrible, why put them knowly so close to where people live?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov].
resistive heaters actually do become cleaner
2 to 3 days a year, your words. And they are cleaner, even if burning coal in a power plant, from emissions perspective.
hen you're burning coal at home, the heat is, you know, the desired product, so you're 100% efficient,
Nope, 70-80% and terrible for emissions since the burn is so incomplete. We are talking about the urban EU here, not the wilderness.
Re: (Score:3)
Well considering you've not countered anything in the links I posted (just dismissed out of hand) gone back on your original statements, admitted this an issue that doesn't affect the majority of people in the EU (most populations are urban, I don't even believe your statement but it undermines most of your arguments) and still not provided any real sources for anything you've said out of, I dunno, stubbornness? I'd say this is wrapped up.
Well, I thought it was about nature, CO2 emissions, Gaia crying and whatnot.
Ahh I see, the idea of being about two things at once or coming to co
Re: (Score:2)
If these states want more heat pumps, and more electric cars on top, then they need to think real hard on where that electricity is going to come from.
Precisely. What's more, any realistic evaluation also needs to take into account the true costs of each system, which means adding in the costs of subsidies. I notice that the article quotes someone talking about "clean" (electric) versus "dirty" energy. By no stretch of the imagination can renewables be termed "clean" and fossil fuels "dirty". CO2 is essential for all life, and the slightly greater atmospheric CO2 levels recently have produced a boom in growth of all plants - notably crops and forests.
http [lewrockwell.com]
Re: (Score:3)
NG electricity from modern combined cycle plants (~60% efficiency, minus single-digit transmission losses) powering a heat pump with COP >= 2 is more efficien
Re: (Score:2)
Jesus you're retarded.
I have great pleasure in awarding you this week's Slashdot Gold Star for the comment that best combines blasphemy, contempt for the intellectually challenged, and 100% lack of content.
Re: (Score:2)
They work just fine in the Nordic countries.
Yeah but Nordic countries insulate their houses when they build them.
Re: (Score:2)
Apropos your sig: I've never heard of the fire department breaking into someone's house and shooting them dead.
Re: (Score:2)
They historically had very cheap hydro, so lots of people were already heating electrically at COP=1. Their grid is dimensioned for that and they can return to it when necessary. Though the European electricity market bidding up their hydro makes it more expensive.
Governments in colder climates should be very careful with air source heatpumps, it's a grid disaster waiting to happen.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
I would assume Finland would use wood stoves for backup heat, or wood boilers in larger buildings. Is that not the case?
Re: (Score:3)
Most of Canada's population lives in its more temperate areas. Not too dissimilar from Norway.
Look, just say "heat pumps should have supplemental heating for cold days", get agreement from other people, and we can move on. The goal isn't "replace all heating needs" with pumped heat, just "replace the majority of them".
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
We live in southern England, which is very moderate - rarely below freezing, and then not for long. When we visited friends who were very proud of their new heat pump (and electric car) we felt quite chilly - and this was in spring. They are fairly well off, so can probably afford to boost their heatin when they get round to noticing that it's not quite up to par.
Re: They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And anyone can undersize any heating system regardless. I mean, what exactly was this claim supposed to even prove?
Re: They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:2)
Houses in southern England have like 4" of insulation and an uninsulated concrete slab on the ground.
That's what I figured out when staying for a few winter months in Hedge End outside Southampton back in 2004.
Re: (Score:2)
I am in Poland, and my village had to give this up. We had over 40 house with this installation, to no effect it actually worked.
You bought the wrong heatpumps. That's on you and your village, not on the technology. You can't just buy any old pump off the shelf, they have wildly different capacities and climate capabilities.
Re: (Score:2)
Or units with supplemental heating. What matters is displacing the vast majority of heating needs.
Re: They Really Work Well Everywhere (Score:2)
Even if they aren't efficient during the coldest outdoor temperatures those days aren't that many.
Heat pumps also works as ACs, so on that matter they'll be usable for most of the year.
Re: They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:5, Informative)
Ground source (i.e. geothermal) heat pumps are the right answer for areas where it gets too cold for air source heat pumps (aka reverse cycle air conditioners). Not fossil fuel powered boilers or furnaces.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Ground source (i.e. geothermal) heat pumps are the right answer for areas where it gets too cold for air source heat pumps (aka reverse cycle air conditioners). Not fossil fuel powered boilers or furnaces.
Ground source is unlikely in urban areas. Great in the country though.
Re: (Score:2)
With the right design, an urban system can harvest heat from neighboring apartments.
Re: (Score:2)
not true at all, geothermal can be used to store and use heat from mass walls and shallow ground loops, basically people use their yards and garages to store heat during the day and use it at night or during the summer and then released in winter months, google shallow geothermal
also google Saskatchewan Conservation House for passive solar development history in cold climates
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on how deep your pockets are. We put heatpumps in our last house, loved them. But they were air source and shutdown as -10C approached. Side effect is that they would not turn on again until outside warmed enough to melt the ice on the coils -- that usually took a day or two. Had wanted to do ground source but the hard rock drilling required (bedrock was 18" down) would have cost 5x the price of the entire system. We kept the old electric baseboards and were glad of it. Big problem we ran into is th
Re: (Score:2)
Depends on how deep your pockets are. We put heatpumps in our last house, loved them. But they were air source and shutdown as -10C approached. ..... and we had bought a major brand of heat pump.
Care to share the brand and model? Our air source heat pumps provide heat just fine, even in temps -25..-30C. Of course the COP approaches 1, but nonetheless, no issues with unexpected shutdowns or such. (Of course there is the defreezing cycle every now and then, when it is cold.)
Re: (Score:2)
Suspect the model designations have changed in the 15 years or so since we had them installed. Last time I looked at the Mitsubishi product line they were adding resistance heaters to offset low temperatures. Ours were a pure bidirectional refrigeration cycle so -10C was it. The mass of the external units meant that once they froze up it was a long time before they warmed up enough to engage. We sold that place over two years ago, but from my old emails the troublesome unit was an MXZ-2A20NA-1 and the issue
Re: (Score:2)
I used to think so also, but reality is more complicated. Vertical bore holes are too expensive (US$5-10k per ton), and horizontal trenches are only economical if you have your own trencher and a lot of space. They obviously don't work if your building is on permafrost, and costs quickly increase on hard rock.
For a well designed and built building, primary ASHPs can provide over 95% of the annual heating energy; switching to a wood-burning stove for the remainder is likely the most efficient and economical
Re:They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:4, Informative)
My Mitsubishi hit the limit in the last cold snap. At -5 F it was still putting out warmish air, but it was not keeping up with the losses from the wind. I had to start up the baseboards I have as backup.
In warmer weather like the typical 10 F above zero that is a normal winter nighttime temperature here it does fine.
It surprises me that Maine is pushing them, not only is it cold there, but it's damp and the outdoor unit will be frosting up quite often.
Re:They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:4, Informative)
My Mitsubishi hit the limit in the last cold snap. At -5 F it was still putting out warmish air, but it was not keeping up with the losses from the wind. I had to start up the baseboards I have as backup.
In warmer weather like the typical 10 F above zero that is a normal winter nighttime temperature here it does fine.
It surprises me that Maine is pushing them, not only is it cold there, but it's damp and the outdoor unit will be frosting up quite often.
In Norway, Mitsubishi sells units that have a guaranteed heat capacity down to -30 C (-22 F) and are tested down to -36 C. Weird way to write it. I've got another brand, and they kept the house nice and warm at -24 C a couple of weeks ago. Heat pumps have automated defrosting on the outside unit, so that works fine in the coastal area where I live.
teg - Posting anon to avoid undoing mods
Re: They Don't Really Work Everywhere (Score:2)
Nordic countries still have to obey the laws of physics. They do have integrated electric coils for backup heat. There is no magical product that isnâ(TM)t available for purchase in the US
Re: (Score:2)
It surprises me that Maine is pushing them
Pushing what? Be specific. There are a wide variety of different heat-pumps on the market to suit a wide variety of different climates. Yes there are plenty of heatpumps which can still operate as a heatpump below -5F. But even down to much colder you can get hybrid heatpumps that supplement their heating with gas during the odd rare extremely cold snap and still act as a heat pump 99% of the time.
Re: (Score:2)
the point is that overall, heat pumps, despite all limitations, are still far more economical and conserve energy, which is exactly what we all need to do
real conservatives live conservatively and conserve our resources ....
Re: (Score:2)
"Far more economical" than what? Electric heating, which nobody should use as a first choice?
Heat pumps are great in moderate temperatures, but they do need a backup like gas or oil heat where it gets really cold. My neighborhood doesn't have natural gas (ironic because a four-pipe natgas pipeline goes through the middle of it) so most people have oil; a few people have propane tanks. Historically, those fossil fuel backups were preferred because they cost significantly less than electric heat. How do h
Re: (Score:2)
"Far more economical" than what? Electric heating, which nobody should use as a first choice?
Than every form of heating. It's literally the single most efficient way we have to heat. Even the gas backed heat pumps you mention use a tiny TINY percentage of the gas and blow away normal gas systems in energy efficiency by an order of magnitude.
If you live in a place where you can't use a heatpump (only a minority of the world), a hybrid gas heatpump is your most efficient heating choice by a long shot.
Re: (Score:2)
you'll still need a supplemental gas unit for the many days and nights when the heat pump just won't cut it.
Heat pumps can also use electric strips for the third stage heat (mine does here in Virginia).
Heat pumps are not cheaper (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You don't live in a climate that needs gas; you *might* live in a house that is more economical with gas though. R13 in the ceiling is just stupid. Beyond just insulation is the status of your air barrier and how tight your house is in general.
For new construction, a tight envelope and hydronic radiant floors can work in -40 weather with an air-source heat pump and a small wood burning stove for backup heat. My in-laws need one small log for the fireplace to keep their place warm for a day at ~-20F, supplem
Meanwhile feds forced me to use plain electric (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok, so I might have told this story here before.
I live in a condo built in 1970s that has a specific size opening and installation area that fits an HVAC compressor of a certain (common, esp. back in those days) form factor. It is currently just an AC (cooling) unit, that has plain resistive heat elements (so my winter heating bills are comparable to those of a standalone house x2 larger).
Sometime in the 90s there was a company making heat pumps of the same form factor. It's not a terribly lucrative business, these pumps being replacement only and not too expensive, but they did their best.
Then EPA came, measured these heat pumps and stated that they do not satisfy the minimal heat pump efficiency requirements set by the government. Now, the issue is that given the small form factor, it is difficult to make a heat pump as efficient as the government standards require (so the larger heat pumps can do so but this one really cannot due to laws of physics and the like).
Of course even a less-than-most-efficient heat pump is still at least x2 as efficient as heating with a giant hair dryer. But that did not matter. So, the manufacturer was forced to stop making these heat pumps (and, eventually, shut down). That was the end of it, sometime around the year 2005.
Since then, no heat pumps are available for anyone that lives in a unit similar to mine and has a similar AC system. It's not possible to fit any of the larger units in here (at least without breaking exterior walls which, generally, is not something that condo owners can do and/or condo boards permit, nor is it cost effective or attractive). So, 100s of units in our community, 1000s within a few mile radius and many 1000s more all across the country (as these were very standard building designs) have no heat pump options available and unlikely to ever.
So, I waste a ton of electricity and $$$ - but at least it's not gas, I guess - just coal somewhere west of here.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Sounds like government efficiency for you...
Re: (Score:3)
have no heat pump options available and unlikely to ever.
Heat pumps have changed wildly over the past decade alone, to say nothing of the past 2 decades, both in terms of capability, size, and in efficiency. Saying "unlikely ever" is silly in a developing field. The government has good reason to mandate minimum efficiency standards, and your handful of condos are likely offset by not having inefficient heat pumps being installed around the country for those people who were able to but too slack to do it "properly".
Don't rule out a developing technology just becau
Re: (Score:3)
Put it this way, many cars now come with heat pumps to condition both the cabin and the battery. Obviously smaller capacity than the one you would want for an apartment, but not by all that much.
Re: (Score:2)
What prevents you from installing a mini-split?
Re: (Score:2)
hybrid system here (Score:5, Informative)
I installed a hybrid gas / heat pump system here several years ago, and it's been okay. I've had to have it repaired a few times though, it's higher maintenance than straight natural gas, mostly due to the outdoor "exhaust unit" as they call it. The big metal box with the fan.
One important thing for people to know - their capacity isn't really high. If you live in a really cold climate, your heat pump will struggle to provide enough heat, or it may just plain not be able to run at all. Mine is set to click over automatically to natural gas if it starts falling behind, and it WILL do that periodically when it's below zero (F) outside. I tried to leave it set on electrical only, and it fell behind several degrees before I re-enabled "emergency heat' mode, and the natural gas didn't take long to catch me up.
I'm currently on emergency heat only, because my starter capacitors have gone out AGAIN in the outside unit and it's a bit chilly to be outside doing repairs yet. I've got the replacement caps, just need a bit of warm weather and some motivation to get out there and swap them.
So make sure you "get both sides of the story" before making any expensive decisions. They're not all roses, but it's NICE to finally have central air conditioning. Also, make sure the peeps that install it did a good job of sealing up the entry into the house. I had to evict some mice and re-seal it myself a few years ago. Great Stuff works well for that. And depending on where you live, natural gas may be a cheaper source of heat than electrical is. I wouldn't trust the sellers to be honest about that - talk with a neighbor that's switched, to see if they're really saving money like the salesman told them they would.
Re: hybrid system here (Score:2)
Air source heat pumps deliver much greater efficiencies than natural gas because they move heat from one place to another rather than creating new heat.
Re: (Score:2)
Air source heat pumps deliver much greater efficiencies than natural gas because they move heat from one place to another rather than creating new heat.
A better way to say it is modern natural gas systems are well above 90% efficient with some reaching even 97 or 98%. Heat pumps can do over 300% efficiency because they are taking free heat from the environment and concentrating it which takes less energy.
Re: (Score:2)
They can't get 300% COP below -25C, more like 200% or even 100%.
Air exchange ones, no. Ground based ones not true at all, they are unaffected by air temperature and have far greater efficiency because buried to a significant depth they experience far warmer temperatures on average in colder climates.
What I'm seeing in problems with heat pumps is that they can take a lot of power for any house that is above average in floor space.
Thats because there is a considerable amount of power required to heat a home, natural gas delivers incredible kW of power for a low pressure small diameter line. Natural gas is, on average, roughly three times cheaper per unit of energy in most economies around the world.
Re: (Score:2)
1. Electricity is made from things other than gas.
This is a power in to power out comparison. It has little to do with how electricity is generated. You also have to include the costs of mining and transport of natural gas if you are going to count the total system costs. Even with those taken into account, heat pumps are more efficient because the heat capacity of gasses is fairly high and ambient heat exists near all structures and it’s a waste not to use that instead of generating it outright.
2. Have you got a link to show that electricity made using a natgas power source is only 40% efficient?
you are conflating creating heat for mechanical pow
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
40% isn't a bad rule of thumb for power plant efficiency - some do up to 60% but that's about it. In the end it's got be less than Carnot efficiency which is 1 - T_cold/T_hot. Since T_cold is going to be in the vicinity of 250-280K (on Earth anyway) you need a crazy hot heat source to do a lot better.
And that’s why Carnot efficiency is kinda dumb, it’s absolute and lacks perspective. You can use the earths heat as the hot source and the cold of space to make dark solar panels [cnet.com] for nearly unlimited energy but at a density at best 10% of solar due to the thermal barrier that exists as the infra red link to the cold side reservoir. It’s far more realistic to use relative efficiency which replaces absolute zero with ambient temperature, as it’s a what you pay for efficiency and does
Re: (Score:2)
I know in Georgia, my heat pump was set to switch to gas below 45 degrees because it's cheaper that way even though the heat pump can work at colder temperatures.
I've had a better experience with mine. No repairs have been necessary in 10 years.
Re: (Score:2)
If you live in a really cold climate, your heat pump will struggle to provide enough heat, or it may just plain not be able to run at all.
Fortunately for all the low-income renters who'll be stuck on non-hybrid systems beyond their control, Colorado, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island are well-known for their mild winters.
Re: hybrid system here (Score:2)
Fortunately for all the low-income renters who'll be stuck on non-hybrid systems beyond their control, Colorado, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and Rhode Island are well-known for their mild winters.
If you're not just pretending to care, please explain how they are better off with kerosene heaters and wood stoves.
Re: (Score:2)
What do kerosene heaters and wood stoves have to do with anything? The low-income renters are better off with the actual natural gas and electric furnaces which heat pumps are slated to replace, not the imaginary kerosene heaters nobody in TFA, TFS, or TFComments was talking about.
People using a wood stove to heat their shotgun shack aren't installing $5,000 heat pump systems, and slumlords who force their tenants to rely on kerosene heaters aren't going to suddenly spring for a heat pump either.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I installed a hybrid gas / heat pump system here several years ago, and it's been okay. I've had to have it repaired a few times though
There's something not right. Heat pumps should run for years with zero maintenance. For new houses, you can put the entire unit in the house, with air vents allowing it to pull outside air through. That exposes the unit to less weathering, which may also improve reliability.
One important thing for people to know - their capacity isn't really high. If you live in a really cold climate, your heat pump will struggle to provide enough heat
The capacity depends on the unit you buy. It sounds like yours is just barely big enough.
As for temperatures: current heat pumps will work effectively down to around -20C (that's about -5F). After that, their efficiency does drop off.
Re: (Score:2)
MY repairs:
- exhaust unit motor failed less than 2 yrs old and had to be replaced (warranty) The first motor they brought out was DOA, so they were out working in my yard well after nightfall installing another motor.
- starter cap failed and had to be replaced (warranty)
- ghost problem causing reversing valve in exhaust unit to not reverse, came home to 95 degree house in june. they never were able to figure out why it did
What brand did you buy? (Score:2)
Same problem as EVs (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Wow, that's a lot of problems with refrigeration cycles. If you own an air conditioner, I recommend you get it ripped out to avoid all the suffering.
Re:Same problem as EVs (Score:5, Informative)
A heat pump is (basically) an A/C unit that can run in a reverse cycle -- it's not much more complex than an A/C unit. (He said, having one for many, many years.) "Constant cleaning of coils and checking pressures" is an exaggeration; I have mine checked/serviced twice a year and, since 2005, has really only required the coils cleaned then -- with a hose, that I could do myself. That said, I have a quality Trane unit that is well located with nothing in my yard to damage/abuse it. The first two compressor stages reliably produce some heat down into the teens and the electric third stage fills in as needed.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
A Heat pump has pressurized gas and outside condenser which is exposed to the elements and ice and sun and require constant cleaning of coils and checking pressures and such. There are electonics and wires outside that rodents get into. And to top it off they don't work in freezing weather
You sound like you're comparing your heatpump to your granddaddy's furnace. Our gas system has wires, needs pressures checked, has condensation traps that need to be filled and maintained, complex computer circuit boards regulating and protecting all parts of the system, ignition coils, etc. You're an absolute fool if you've been sold a heating system as maintenance free. Furnaces should be disassembled and cleaned by a professional on a 2 yearly basis. My neighbours heatpump is disassembled and cleaned on
Re: (Score:3)
You're an absolute fool if you've been sold a heating system as maintenance free. Furnaces should be disassembled and cleaned by a professional on a 2 yearly basis.
May be they should (especially if you have house insurance which requires it) but it is not needed. My gas furnace is older - has efficiency of 95%. It needed only one clean up and one electrical part repair in 25 years.
The only annual maintenance is bleeding, checking pressure and possibly filling up the water circuit which carries the heat around. Anybody can do this himself in about 2 hours.
Re: (Score:2)
Which probably isn't a bad thing - there would be more cowboys out there without the regulation. It must have been a week since the last report of a house blown to shit killing several people.
Re: (Score:3)
Last 7 years on all-electric heat pump... (Score:5, Interesting)
Have lived the last seven years in an all electric house with a heat pump. Including 4 days without power during winter storm "Uri"... With proper insulation, they actually work pretty well. My unit can generate heat all the way down to at least -4/F, but I have to have power, which is where the Texas grid failed me.
The other caveats:
1. They require a defrost cycle outside in cold weather. If the fan is blocked/seized/imbalanced by ice, you're boned. If it isn't, it needs 20 - 30 minutes of defrost before it can provide heat. This is a problem if the grid operator makes the rotation time shorter than an hour or so.
2. An all-electric neighborhood can create a huge feedback loop under conditions like "Uri". The power comes back on, and a thousand houses turn on their 12kw water heaters, and defrost their heat pump, and... We're talking energy units measured in 6000 horsepower mainline locomotive's per city block in current draw. Before anyone gets any heat...
Ultimately, I suspect the south needs to adopt a dual unit model. Where the main house A/C & heat are a grid tied heat pump, and a second ductless unit is tied to off-grid solar. At 8 to 1 heat moved per watt, it doesn't take much. Maybe 800 - 1200 watts... All of three modern solar panels. Just to get rid of the single point of failure.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
"it needs 20 - 30 minutes of defrost before it can provide heat." SOOO you are gonna be running it 24/7 if you live in northern states where when it gets under freezing it stays there for many months.
I live in south-eastern Virginia and my Trane unit only defrosts when needed based on two temperature sensors -- one for air and one on the coil. My unit doesn't need that much time to defrost when it kicks in. But yes, when it's really cold, the heat pump runs a lot, but the first two compressor cycles don't really use that much electricity and they produce some heat down into the teens. I have an electric third stage, however, that obviously used more when it kicks in as needed and during defrost.
Re: (Score:2)
It speaks volumes about your waste when you think 20-30minutes extra time means you need to leave something on 24/7 instead of say spending $150 for a Google Nest or something similar which takes those kinds of delays into account.
Re: (Score:2)
"it needs 20 - 30 minutes of defrost before it can provide heat." SOOO you are gonna be running it 24/7 if you live in northern states where when it gets under freezing it stays there for many months.
No, you misunderstand. It's a typical A/C compressor air handler. It just reverses the cycle to heat the house and make the outdoor air colder. But under those circumstances snow, freezing rain, and ice, can all block the airflow thru the exchange coil, or imbalance or seize the fan, in which case the unit tries to defrost before it can provide heat. There's some sensors and automation... If it's not needed, it moves on to providing heat.
During Uri, my unit was on the south side of my house and shield
Re: (Score:2)
but I have to have power, which is where the Texas grid failed me.
Last time I remember hearing about a Texas grid outage they had a consumer natural gas outage as well. That's the thing with grid outages, they affect everyone. Only really small local outages are likely to affect your electricity while leaving your gas intact, and then ... well... my natural gas system heating system has no means of actually starting and running it's circulating pumps and fans without electricity either so I'd still be screwed.
That said, you could run a heatpump for several days back-fed o
Re: (Score:2)
That said, you could run a heatpump for several days back-fed of a fully charged EV.
True, but then you have an dead car when the crisis is over. Easier to just build a home brew "powerwall" and get a cheap inverter generator. If I nix the 240v loads, 300aH of LiFePO4 batteries and a 3kw inverter hold my house overnight (insulation is the key), keeps the fridge running, makes a pot of coffee in the morning, etc... Then I can heat the house & recharge the battery by running the generator for a couple hours. Add a couple hundred watts of solar, and keep the snow off them and you could
Re: (Score:2)
For Texas I doubt you will get away without gas because it is cheap... but it is not the only approach. High interior thermal mass and solar/battery backup are the more elegant approach though.
Re: (Score:2)
For Texas I doubt you will get away without gas because it is cheap... but it is not the only approach. High interior thermal mass and solar/battery backup are the more elegant approach though.
Oddly... While yes gas is cheap in Texas, it's not common in housing in my area. Texas is mostly Karst terrain. The soils are weathered limestone formed during the Permian in a shallow ocean. In many areas, the topsoil contains a high percentage of Bentonite clay's, which are highly expansive with moisture content. In areas with thicker topsoil, in a drought year you can get 3 - 5 cm cracks in your yard that go down a meter or more. The houses are built with post-tension cable foundations to keep them
Love the tech; stop F'in mandating stuff! (Score:5, Insightful)
Just like with EVs (and esp PHEVs), and solar, and wind, and wave power, and desalination plants, and water recycling i really like heat-pumps, especially if used w/ a geo-thermal loop because it's neat tech and harnesses physics in a cool way and i want it to succeed.
But for the love of FSM, stop shoving this stuff down people's throats with bans and mandates!
I'm at the point of switching to an 80s diesel Mercedes and coal heating just out of spite. (ok not really, but damn! get off my back!)
Re: (Score:2)
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5... [getyarn.io]
Re: (Score:3)
Ah yes, the mythical "EV which is much cheaper than comparable ICE car, cus fewer parts, simpler build, blahblahblah" which is all over leftist propaganda, and yet, conspicuouosly absent at any car dealership I've inquierd.
Yes that one. People don't research ongoing total cost of vehicle ownership. They look at sticker price, and all those articles which do mention that EVs are cheaper than comparable ICE cars also mention a higher up front sticker price.
See you're what I'm talking about. We need regulations because individual people making individual decisions are too dumb to even read articles they talk about.
Washington State Too (Score:2)
Our legislature has a bill before it to "encourage" utilities to switch from gas to electric (heat pumps) where possible. I live in a neighborhood that was designed as all gas (heat, hot water, cooking). The same company that runs the gas distribution also runs the underground power grid. Their response will be: Can't do it. Insufficient grid capacity. They can't even tolerate more than a few EVs charging per block without burning up the underground cables.
The same utility also handles gas distribution in
Re: (Score:2)
In winter, what's the power source? (Score:2)
Which means they're replacing gas heaters with heat pumps that will usually be powered by
However, heat pumps for air conditioning and water heating seem sensible.
Re: (Score:3)
Replies are predictable (Score:3)
I knew exactly how this would go here. Yep. There are places where they don't work well. Here in the coast ranges of NorCal, they actually work quite well. As old systems age out, I've seen a lot of my neighbors get these systems. For us, 20F would be unusually cold, and it would probably only happen for a few hours before you wake up. 30F is more common, but it's the same deal and snow here is typically an inch or two that melts by noon--last year's foot that took a few days to melt was a freak wonder.
So heat pumps work well here in the Winter; but I think you'd be disappointed if you had one in Truckee or Tahoe.
What I'm less certain of is the A/C performance because that's where our weather is more extreme--we get 100F+ routinely in the Summer, but nights will usually stay cool. It's not like back east where it stays sticky all night long. You can have 95F here for a high, and 55 for a low, it's actually quite pleasant even an hour or two after the Sun goes down. If I'm here for the heat of the day, I open windows, close doors, and selectively cool with a window unit. Whole-house A/C would be nice, but it's more of a want than a need.
So heat pumps work well as A/C here, but can they handle the South? I don't know. You don't hear that complaint as much, so I suspect they can.
Efficiency is great but... (Score:2)
This is a great idea but there are areas like where I am in southern California that electricity is simply too expensive to make this viable. In the summer when it's extremely hot our combined utility bill runs over $800, and this is for a small house with pretty decent insulation. We get a break in winter when we can heat with gas which is cheap here. If heat pumps are mandated, then there needs to be massive amounts of work done to make electricity cheaper at the same time. Otherwise it's simply not e
Re: (Score:2)
- Do you have a solar water heater? They substantially reduce energy consumption & are essentially free hot water after installation.
- Have you effectively insulated your home? That substantially reduces energy consumption for both heat & cold.
- Do you turn off air-conditioning or heating in rooms that you're not using? That substantially reduces energy consumption.
- Do you keep your home temperatures within reasonable limits & dress appropriately, i.e.
Establish standards (Score:2)
Gov Gives you 10K, the vendors take it (Score:2)
I'm a huge heat pump proponent and think this stuff is great... But something has to be done about the fact that when the government gives you a 'rebate' all that does is cause the companies selling/installing heat pumps to jack their prices by 80% of that rebate. For example. You can get a Bosch BOVA outside heat pump unit for 3500 dollars. It's a DIRECT replacement for old AC units. Even works with your current AI coils (provided they are newer than 2003). It's a 3 hour job. Vendor prices it at 10K kn
Note for new house builders (Score:2)
I have had a number of coworkers in different real estate regulation jurisdictions fall into a trap with ground coupled heat pumps: in many jurisdictions a ground-coupled heat pump is classified as a well, and those jurisdictions had regulations saying that in residential areas wells can only be installed on unimproved land. Once the foundation is poured it is no longer unimproved. Check with your builder and building code office to determine if you need to drill the hole first before other construction s
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, you can do a shitload of engineering to figure out the right size of a heat pump system that will just barely keep you warm 99% of the time. Or you can just use a (perhaps dual-stage) gas furnace which will have plenty of capacity.
The house being "not properly insulated" is pretty much a given for most older houses. Newer houses... well, I don't care how much R-49 you have in your attic or R-23 in your walls, your windows are R-5 maximum, and probably less. And that's assuming no air leaks. Maybe
Re: (Score:2)
"The grid".
Which is good, because centralized generation is almost always more efficient than heavily distributed. Decentralized to the neighbourhood scale is fine, but when you get down to the individual home level you're just not doing the best that can be done.
Also good because 'the grid' is your delivery system, not your generation system. Even if you're on coal now, without any additional changes to the homes and businesses in the area, generation can be switched over to anything else that moves elec