Half of College Graduates Are Working High School Level Jobs 266
According to a new study, almost half of America's new college graduates are winding up in jobs they didn't need to go to college to get. CBS News reports: If a graduate's first job is in a low-paying field or out-of-line with a worker's interests, it could pigeonhole them into an undesirable role or industry that's hard to escape, according to a new study (PDF) from The Burning Glass Institute and the Strada Institute for the Future of Work. Another study from the HEA Group found that a decade after enrolling in college, attendees of 1 in 4 higher education programs are earning less than $32,000 -- the median annual income for high school graduates. A college degree, in itself, is not a ticket to a higher-paying job, the study shows.
"Getting a college degree is viewed as the ticket to the American dream," said [Burning Glass CEO Matt Sigelman], "and it turns out that it's a bust for half of students." The single greatest determinant of post-graduation employment prospects, according to the study, is a college student's major, or primary focus of study. It can be even more important than the type of institution one attends. Choosing a career-oriented major like nursing, as opposed to criminal justice, gives graduates a better shot at actually using, and getting compensated for the skills they acquire. Just 23% of nursing students are underemployed, versus 68% of criminal justice majors. However, focusing on science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) subjects is not a guarantee of college-level employment and high wages, the study found. [...]
Many college graduates remain underemployed even 10 years after college, the study found. That may be because employers seeking college-level skills also tend to focus on job candidates' recent work experience, placing more emphasis on the latest jobs held by candidates who have spent years in the workforce, versus a degree that was earned a decade prior. "If you come out of school and work for a couple of years as waiter in a restaurant and apply for a college-level job, the employer will look at that work experience and not see relevance," Sigelman said.
"Getting a college degree is viewed as the ticket to the American dream," said [Burning Glass CEO Matt Sigelman], "and it turns out that it's a bust for half of students." The single greatest determinant of post-graduation employment prospects, according to the study, is a college student's major, or primary focus of study. It can be even more important than the type of institution one attends. Choosing a career-oriented major like nursing, as opposed to criminal justice, gives graduates a better shot at actually using, and getting compensated for the skills they acquire. Just 23% of nursing students are underemployed, versus 68% of criminal justice majors. However, focusing on science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) subjects is not a guarantee of college-level employment and high wages, the study found. [...]
Many college graduates remain underemployed even 10 years after college, the study found. That may be because employers seeking college-level skills also tend to focus on job candidates' recent work experience, placing more emphasis on the latest jobs held by candidates who have spent years in the workforce, versus a degree that was earned a decade prior. "If you come out of school and work for a couple of years as waiter in a restaurant and apply for a college-level job, the employer will look at that work experience and not see relevance," Sigelman said.
Quelle surprise (Score:4, Funny)
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Huge debt. Only worthy of basic jobs. Epic.
Indeed it is.
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As I was growing up, same thought process...in face EVERYONE I knew that was going to college, were talking about what type of well paying career they wanted, and were basing their course of study and degree on that.
When and how did that stop?
Did people just really start getting more stupid over the recent years?
I mean, it really seems that way, not only w/regards to this topic, but to so many in
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As I was growing up, same thought process...in face EVERYONE I knew that was going to college, were talking about what type of well paying career they wanted, and were basing their course of study and degree on that.
When and how did that stop?
Did people just really start getting more stupid over the recent years?
I mean, it really seems that way, not only w/regards to this topic, but to so many in life...leading to the problems we have today in society.
It's not quite that simple. I had a friend that was on the tail-end of what I consider "my generation" go to school for years with a definite career path in mind. She got a doctorate in psychiatry, right about the time nobody wanted to hire psychiatrists. Turns out, as money got tighter, one of the first things to go was mental health care. She wasn't alone. A lot of folks she was in school with went in with a plan, and by the time they graduated following that plan, the jobs had disappeared. So, since scho
Re:Quelle surprise (Score:4, Interesting)
Take, for example, nursing. You don't *need* a bachelor's degree to become a nurse. And if you have a bachelor's degree, you generally will start in the same pay range as those who don't. But without a bachelor's degree and the additional training it offers in nursing, your promotion opportunities will be vastly limited. The same is true for firefighters, police officers, etc.
The group that produced this "study" is just trying to get attention for itself and sell something...
The government has been pushing college for years (Score:2, Insightful)
Not because it's necessary, but because it reduces the years that someone spends in the adult workforce by 4 or so, thereby reducing unemployment rates for the duration of your schooling and atop that generates a boatload of student debt that you feel compelled to work to get rid of. Sending someone to an apropos vocational education is not as lucrative.
Remarking on the resemblance of this scheme to how people who run strip joints get the girls hooked on drugs so they keep coming back seems superfluous.
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Huh?
How is this lucrative for the government? They spend tens of thousands per student, on student loans that will never get paid back. https://www.ed.gov/news/press-... [ed.gov]
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That wasn't the government, it was your parents. They're the ones who aspired for you to have at least as comfortable a life as they had, and hopefully moreso.
If the government wanted you to study, they could institute a loan scheme that doesn't leave you under an unserviceable debt. Instead they largely leave that to 3rd parties who charge higher than market interest.
Even so, this isn't directly the government's fault. If large portions of your country's economy wasn't captured by vested corporate interest
That's not the problem (Score:2)
Doesn't matter though. This entire thread will be so full of anti-education
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Your solution to underemployment is companies should hire people they don't need. Cool story, bro.
When do we get to the part where the 1% eat babies for breakfast? I live that part. Tell it again!
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You said I put words in your mouth then re-spoke the same words.
You want employers to hire twice as many people, have them work less but get paid the same as when they worked more and then claim you don't want employers to hire people they don't need.
Do you also write for the Babylon Bee?
I worked 60-80 hours a week for decades. Why? Because that was what I needed to do to retire early. I'm now retired, wealthy and have lots of free time to discuss the ridiculous economics theory of socialists such as you
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College isn't trade school, Ken. If you don't see the value in an educated populace, there's no hope for you.
Re: The government has been pushing college for ye (Score:4, Insightful)
" If you don't see the value in an educated populace, there's no hope for you"
If you don't see the drag on the economy such debt creates, there's no hope for you.
The way we are doing things is driving up the cost of education, increasing the amount of debt students must assume. And NOBODY appears to be doing a ROI when taking those loans.
Go to community college and then transfer to state. Shine there and maybe go to graduate school. You don't need "the college experience" on top of the education (living on campus across the country). Particularly if you need to take a loan for it.
30%-40% drop out and dont even get a degree. But they're still in debt. This isn't a healthy way to manage education or life planning.
"College isn't trade school"
Maybe a healthy chunk of folks should go to trade school if so many cant make to the finish line. Think about it! Plumbers are aging out and we don't have enough folks in the field to replace them! We need far more skilled plumbers than folks with degrees in biology or some generic humanities subject with post-grad skills as a barista.
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" If you don't see the value in an educated populace, there's no hope for you"
And if OP thinks the government wants an educated populace, there's even less...
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Loans are not a net drain on the economy. If that were true then every business, mortgage, car purchase, etc. would be a drain on the economy because they are all fueled by loans.
Banks use profits on loans to create more loans, and the profits from banks are also paid back to investors. So while loans do transfer money from one area to another and from one person to another, it isn't a "drain" on the economy.
Yes, individual debt can be a problem. But don't start at a community college. The numbers show
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A generally educated populace should result from most of the populace graduating from high school.
Unfortunately, most students go to public K-12 schools which too often set very low expectations for student accomplishment, advance students from grade to grade based on the calendar rather than level of academic achievement, and issue diplomas even to those who can't meet even sixth grade standards in core subjects.
These problems are compounded by these same schools often mixing students who are motivated int
Education on a curve (Score:2)
Some kids are smarter and some are a little behind naturally. it could just be the difference between being born in Jan or September. 9 months is a large amount of difference at younger ages. So instead of progressing everyone through the system we should set a 5% quota of children who will be advanced by 2 grades and a 5% quota of children who will be held back. The children being progressed 2 grades should go through a summer accelerated program to cover the grade they ar
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As one who, had I been born a few days later, would have started Kindergarten one year later (and much more mature), I agree with the age issue.
I also agree that something like a curve should be established - but quotas are inappropriate. Standardized tests should establish class advancement (and may vary by subject). It would be unfair to the bottom 5% to hold them back just because they happened to be at an excellent school with high achieving students.
I don't see a need to limit advancement. There are so
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The UK doesn't do 'holding back in a year' (Score:2)
Kids just keep going through until they fall out at the far end. Which probably means that children not coping are just 'dead catted' on to the next class / school rather than drawing the attention that they need.
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Hence standardized tests so teachers and administrators can't game the system.
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You have it completely backwards. If you set a quota administrators will game the system by ensuring their favored and disfavored students are always in the top or bottom bin, and on top of this you'll teach students that there's no point in trying because you'll be punished for no reason at all.
For example what are you going to do when you have too many students with the same exact grades? How do you decide who to arbitrarily punish for no reason at all other than your need for a minimum quantity of studen
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Obviously you go by color and gender first.
Anything else would be some sort of -ist. Grades are racist. Reading is racist. Math is racist. It's all racist today.
One of my reasons to move states was to go somewhere that the 3 Rs were still important and they stopped wasting my kid's time pushing their social agenda.
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The really bright will stay as academics, surely (Score:2)
If they are two or three years ahead of their peers, they should be a shoo in to do research where they should be surrounded by people almost as bright as them. One of the arguments in favour of elite schools is that it means that for the first time the seriously bright will have peers as bright as they are.
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Tell that to this guy [wikipedia.org]. When he was 12 years old, he was a sophomore at UCLA and graduated when he was 15. He's been quite successful and independent. There's no evidence that I've seen that he had any problem adjusting to "real life".
What purpose would there have been in holding him back (except, perhaps, preventing people from being jealous of the fact that there was someone in the room smarter than they were and who was younger than them)?
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The exception makes the rule.
Not a panacea (Score:2)
My mother trained to be a teacher, but took a career break when she had children. She taught me to read and write before I started school, so I was skipped forward two classes after only one term. But my parents wanted me to move on from primary to secondary at the same age as my peers, so I was held back a couple of times to synch up. Educationally it was probably a good choice, but socially it was messy. Children socialise with children in their class, so advancing them at different rates interferes with
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Life is not a race. Pushing kids forward... why? What purpose is served graduating a kid at 16 instead of 18?
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Having kids repeating or skipping school years is a common thing in many educational systems but it absolutely should not be based on some arbitrary quota. Stupid percentage-based quotas are a scourge of the current age, for the love of god let's not add any more. Repeating a year is not supposed to be a punishment for something, the reason for doing it is that a child does not appear to be coping with the academic demands of that year's material, so they can spend another year going over it again. Likewise
Re: The government has been pushing college for y (Score:2)
Sure, if the education is actually relevant to an actual economic demand. If it's not, then you're just spending money needlessly. Without a doubt you have no understanding of what that actually means, so put it this way:
Only 100 years ago, colleges used to make Latin compulsory. Yet how does that benefit the modern student? It never was useful even back then, nevertheless it was the mark of literacy and being "educated".
As a man of no marketable skills yourself, I'm sure you can appreciate what it is like
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Latin coursework was (and in many ways remains) the best way to begin learning about the political mistakes of past generations, to learn textual and logical analysis through grammar, and to learn oratory and debating skills. Everything neede
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Only 80 years ago my grandfather found Latin incredibly useful. As he moved across northern France in 1944, whenever he reached a village he would seek out the priest, who would also speak Latin, and ask him to assist with translation to French. Of course, since Latin's no longer compulsory for Catholic clergy that wouldn't work so well today, but even in the '90s I found that in English lessons the hands that went up when the teacher asked a question about grammar belonged precisely to the people who were
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College isn't trade school, Ken. If you don't see the value in an educated populace, there's no hope for you.
Advanced Intersectional LGBTQ+ friendly Basketweaving classes are hardly an education worthy of value.
Soon society will revert to the Oprah Method of distributing college degrees - You Get A Degree ! And You get A Degree !! And Everybody Gets A Degree !!!
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If today's USA has an "educated populace", there is no hope for any of us. Halfwitted ideologies, counterfactual beliefs, postmodern nihilism, violent hostility to other groups, and above all sheer downright ignorance seem to be prevailing.
True, a small minority of truly educated people go on seeking - and finding - truth. But that has always been the case.
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Most people don't get educated in college. And most people don't need college to become a high earner. We should be investing heavily in trade schools for anyone who has an interest in becoming an electrician, plumber, mechanic, etc. We also need a massive number of additional nurses and nursing techs, and most IT jobs don't really require more than a decent trade school either (although there is a distinct lack of "decent" supply and a voluminous overstock of "garbage" IT trade schools). Handyman, landscap
Re: The government has been pushing college for y (Score:2)
I'll Just Repeat a Previous Comment (Score:5, Interesting)
No wonder there's a concerted effort against standardized testing, which could be the last line of defense left against a university who wants to reap tens of thousands in tuition from a student before he realizes he's made a mistake and ended up somewhere he can't succeed. I notice NPR left this quote out.
I'm a bit surprised (Score:2)
Frankly I'm surprised that even 50% of college graduate do better than high school level employment. The percentage of economically worthless college degrees is probably quite a bit higher than that.
Re: I'm a bit surprised (Score:2)
It used to be a privilege test, the richest went to college so it was a marker of wealth, the businesses hired you to build wealthy network. If you want an institution with the same results now, call it rich camp, and make it cost ten times as much as college with no help to get in. Anyone who can drop a couple million on it is someone whose kids you want to hire.
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What blows my mind is the fact that in 1991-1993, a college grad would make $36,000 a year. Fast forward to 2024. A college grad still makes the same. However, rent has gone up astronomically, cars have gone up to insane prices, and there are new bills to pay like tollways, cellular providers, ISPs, subscriptions for whatever, and so on.
College isn't worth it. Going with a tradeskill or just grinding out banal stuff at a MSP as a tech and getting certs is probably the best way to get some sort of career
its not about the certificate (Score:2)
In the work place you need a skills.
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The certificate gives employers confidence that the applicant has the skills. Without that certificate, job seekers need experience, which they generally can't get without first having the certificate.
Re:its not about the certificate (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently, half of college graduates have the certificate and no skills. Do you expect to train them? Maybe you only hire the other half of college grads that has skills?
If half of graduates are not employable in their field maybe that says more about the education system. Quality education or not you still need skills to be employable.
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If half of graduates are not employable in their field maybe that says more about the education system.
Half of graduates not employable in their field, or half of the fields not needing as many graduates as are created? Slightly different situations.
Mostly a good thing (Score:2)
It's good for students to get a taste of the work world and office politics early. Better to make basic "work mistakes" before you get a higher-level job. Spoken from experience (or lack of).
I agree that too many work hours cutting into college studies probably isn't a good thing, but part time is okay.
I got burned by this myself... (Score:4, Interesting)
I got burned by this myself. I paused my IT career, went to college, graduated in December 2008, and was out of work for several years. Which meant a greater chunk of a decade of potential career was thrown down the toilet. No place I've worked at cared about the degree. Even worse, the opportunity costs, because taking that break meant I was starting from ground zero... and it wasn't my degree that got me a job, it was knowing AIX, Solaris, and HP-UX. I am doing okay, but had I not bothered with the CS degree, I would be a lot further along with a career path.
Would I recommend college? Maybe for an attorney, because once they pass the bar, the J. D. is a meal ticket for life, as there is no such thing as an unemployed lawyer. Doctor, similar.
For almost anything else, especially IT, a degree is a handicap, and means four less years of experience. Instead, certs matter far more than a degree, at this stage of an economic cycle. (Actually at this stage, nothing matters except who knows you, as nobody is getting hired for anything technical until the AI craze dies down... 2025 at the earliest, probably 2027-2028 realistically.)
If someone is graduating high school in the US and needs a career path, probably the best would be to go one year in a hard martial art where all the instructor does is punchy-kicky stuff for a year. After that, do 4-8 years in an Armed Service, making sure to get a MOS that requires a TS/SCI clearance, ETS, and then use that clearance for a decent career until retirement. Alternatively, run career enlisted, get the 20, go use veteran's points and get a public sector job for another 20 years, and by 60, retire and enjoy two pensions. No, it isn't fancy, but it will ensure you can keep the roof over your head, while the tech guy is not able to find a job and watching the timer tick until their Tesla gets repossessed and their $850,000 two bedroom house gets foreclosed on.
Skip law school. (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless you go to Harvard or one of the 10 other elite schools, the best you can hope for is being an ambulance chaser, defense attorney, or a public defender. If you are lucky, you might get a staff position in a corporation, doing scut work for the real lawyers in the law firm your employer retains.
And even if you are Harvard trained and get in on a prestigious law firm, you will be expected to start bringing in business, or you are out.
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It's true that there are probably relatively few unemployed lawyers at any point in time -- but that's because they eventually give up on being lawyers and become paralegals, truck drivers, contractors, etc.
Even for those who become and remain lawyers, the "meal ticket" may get them a Big Mac rather than caviar. According to Bureau of Labor
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Sounds like you were a special case: you already had an IT career. That makes you something of an exception, and I don't think you should generalize your experience.
For IT professions like network engineers, you can (and should) pick up certificates. Whether that's on the job (if you are able to land that first job), or in a trade school, or through independent study - it doesn't matter.
For IT professions like software engineers, a solid bachelor's degree is important. I'm not talking the people who cli
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A lot of jobs used to require a degree. Often you couldn't even apply unless you ticked the box on their web form saying you had one.
That is often still the case, although it is changing slowly. Part of that is down to diversity efforts, which include taking on people from lower socio-economic backgrounds who couldn't afford to get a degree.
Still, for a lot of people, it's a necessary key to open the door to the career they want. It really shouldn't be that expensive though, it should be free.
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A lot of jobs used to require a degree. Often you couldn't even apply unless you ticked the box on their web form saying you had one.
That is often still the case, although it is changing slowly. Part of that is down to diversity efforts, which include taking on people from lower socio-economic backgrounds who couldn't afford to get a degree.
Yep. Just put out an advert that requests software engineering skills obtained via a degree or equivalent professional experience. If you can demonstrate you'll be able to do the job, I don't care how you got those skills.
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get the 20
I just read the same expression in another thread. What does it mean ? I assume it's not 20 years of military service like it used to be in the Roman Legion...
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As an attorney, I can assure you there is such thing as an unemployed attorney (although I've been fortunate enough to avoid it). In fact, at third and fourth tier law schools, it's not uncommon for less than half of graduates to find gainful employment as an attorney.
Articles like this assume... (Score:5, Informative)
...that the only reason to get a college education is to get a job
While it's true that professions like engineering, science, medicine, law and others often require a degree, it's not the only purpose of education
When taken seriously, college trains the mind, kinda like an athlete lifting weights to train their muscles
We need more trained minds
Re:Articles like this assume... (Score:5, Funny)
...that the only reason to get a college education is to get a job While it's true that professions like engineering, science, medicine, law and others often require a degree, it's not the only purpose of education
True, some go to college to find a significant other majoring in engineering, science, medicine, or law. :-)
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Stop poisoning the minds. (Score:2)
We need more trained minds
True, but what needs to be taken seriously is addressing the obvious issues in higher education first.
Today, America doesn’t offer as much an education as they do an indoctrination.
The fix is rather simple. Address the crushing liberalism sitting in the teachers seat, and get the politics out of education. If we don’t start doing that to actually create a valid product again, then we should let the whole damn system starve to death so “education” can realize their actual worth and
Re: Stop poisoning the minds. (Score:3)
End tenure, limit student loans to subjects that can actually prepare a student for a job that can afford to pay back their loans, and for gods sake, stop lending kids money for remedial classes in college!
If a high school graduate can't handle freshman math or writing, send them back to their high school, don't pretend they're ready for college.
Equity instead of Loans (Score:2, Interesting)
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I've seen the idea of a graduate tax before. I've not seen the idea of a tithe back to the institution awarding the degree before. That's an interesting one, but it's also susceptible to the school prioritising quantity over quality.
Root Cause (Score:2)
If a high school graduate can't handle freshman math or writing, send them back to their high school, don't pretend they're ready for college.
If a high school “graduate” can’t handle freshman math or writing, stop rewarding that high school with funding based on bullshit grades and graduation rates.
As with most things that went bad, get the corrupt money out of education.
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...that the only reason to get a college education is to get a job
While it's true that professions like engineering, science, medicine, law and others often require a degree, it's not the only purpose of education
When taken seriously, college trains the mind, kinda like an athlete lifting weights to train their muscles
We need more trained minds
Medicine and law students are wasting time in college. They should go directly to medical and law school rather than wasting 4 years.
Science and engineering degrees are meaningless now. Professors teach whatever they want. There is no standardization. Experience with actually doing science and engineering would be more beneficial.
To the contrary: Engineering is standardized (Score:5, Informative)
Quite the contrary: Engineering and Science degrees are so heavily standardized by the Accreditors that it doesn't matter where you study. You will have the same classes with the same textbooks. One ABET Accredited Engineering or Science degreed is fundamentally interchangeable with any other.
Accreditation assures the following:
- The university claims to teach the required content.
- The university actually teaches the content they claim to teach
- The students actually learn the content taught
- The faculty are qualified
- The facilities are adequate
https://www.abet.org/accredita... [abet.org]
The Association for Computing Machinery (ACM) has very detailed required student outcomes and knowledge areas: https://csed.acm.org/wp-conten... [acm.org]
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This is some sort of joke right? A document written for requirements of CS education in Microsoft Word. Also not proof-read with glaring mistakes. Looks like a curriculum that's good for 2003, not 2023.
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And what do the students assume? How many are independently wealthy and are doing it for enrichment? Even the ones who don't care about money are probably looking to get a career out of it. Just because you are happy they have trained their brains doesn't mean they are happy with the results.
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True, but does one need to get into that much debt for that?
Education, much like healthcare, can be delivered much more cheaply than it is being delivered now, given all these technology advances.
But both have only gotten more expensive.
Not preparing kids for a job skill by universities is just negligent. By all means, teach history, political science, philosophy, logic and argumentation. But there must be some concrete job oriented training as well because there simply are not enough vacancies for scholars
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Except that hasn't been the point of college education for quite some time. STEM majors are still slightly resistant, but the woke-mind-virus has thrived in "liberal arts" education where they are inculcated with things like pure scorn for anything white or male, and now an inability to tell make from female.
Supply & Demand (Score:4, Informative)
Why are all these articles so surprised by the basic functioning of supply & demand? A third of Millennials have a college degree. Half of Gen Z that's of age to graduate college have a degree. To contrast, ~10% of Boomers have a degree. If lots of people have a degree, a degree isn't worth much. If that degree is increasing in cost faster than inflation while being diluted by the pool of those who posses one increasing, then it's not really worth it.
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Don't forget that corporate America reserves all foreign worker slots for jobs that compete directly with the American degree holders so that they can undercut their wages, um I mean... *cough* cut costs
I suspect that those newly minted degree holders would face a robust job market if the available migrant job slots were allocated to construction, farming and food services
It would likely put a dent into illegal immigration as well
Re: Supply & Demand (Score:2)
You think H1B visa holders are taking all the entry-level jobs in high-paying professions? Seriously? The wage requirement is high, the number of workers allowed in is limited, etc.
I'm more concerned about the 300K "asylum seekers" heading into major metropolitan areas with no job skills, poor language skills, and they brought their family along because that's how you get in - single asylum seekers are the most-deported group, having a child in-tow is your ticket to America.
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Re: Supply & Demand (Score:2)
Thankfully, the millions of asylum seekers streaming across the southern border with their families in tow are all college-educated professionals with great job skills and mastery of the English language - otherwise, we'd be screwed!
Brief window to find suitable jobs (Score:2)
"If you come out of school and work for a couple of years as waiter in a restaurant and apply for a college-level job, the employer will look at that work experience and not see relevance,"
While true, this is also another factor. Companies that fire fresh grads generally only want FRESH grads. The graduate fails to find a a job in their field in the first year or two, they are generally screwed. Graduating into a recession can ruin a career before it starts with or without a survival job. Modernizing skills doesn't help. You actually need a new degree.
Re: Brief window to find suitable jobs (Score:2)
How many kids, facing the prospect of graduating during the shutdown, decided to borrow two more years of student loans and go for a masters? I've met several - it sounds like a great idea, until you realize your monthly student loan payment just went up 50%, and the job market didn't get much better...
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Caveats on the HBA study (Score:5, Informative)
Take the HBA study with a large grain of salt. While the data does include some low-performing vo-tech and arts schools, the "underperforming thousand" are mostly issuing certificates or associates degrees, and a good half of them appear to be training for hair cuts and cosmetics. These weren't students seeking higher education. They just needed work skills.
Download the HBA data spreadsheet from their site and look for yourself.
The https://collegescorecard.ed.go... [ed.gov] has a lot more fields to filter out, as well as many institutions with multiple sites. So the HBA data is a helpful start. See OPEID6 in column C and MD_EARN_WNE_P10 in column BKB. They also have a scorecard by field of study as opposed to institution...
Professors recruit students to keep THEIR jobs (Score:2, Interesting)
Professors need students in order to keep their own jobs. So, you find departments of journalism, drama, broadcasting, psychology, ethnic studies, philosophy, linguistics, etc. continuing to recruit naïve kids regardless of whether their department's recent graduates are satisfied with their education. (Of course, a person may be satisfied with their degree even if they don't get a job in that specific field.)
It's very simple, but not popular (Score:2, Troll)
Merely possessing a college degree is virtually meaningless - it's little more than a box to check on the application.
Once upon a time, when only a few students attended college, it would help an applicant stand out in the job market... then, parents pushed schools, and schools pushed students, and now "everyone" goes to college - most have no idea what they want to be when they grow up, so they fall under the sway of a charismatic professor and study political science, philosophy, or that great catch-all,
How qualified should a school teacher be? (Score:2)
There's a case for arguing that the low quality of US education is because the teachers are the dregs.
Re: (Score:2)
Make teaching a higher paid, lower stress, 40-hours a week job and you might get more capable people staying in teaching rather than going to work elsewhere.
Yep (Score:5, Interesting)
>"According to a new study, almost half of America's new college graduates are winding up in jobs they didn't need to go to college to get."
And as someone who has had to interview several times before, I can say with confidence that at least half those with "college degrees" had one or more of the following:
1) Could not have passed what I went through in public high school (much less college)
2) Are good at short-term memorization instead of logic, reason, problem-solving, critical thinking
3) Had huge entitlement and little work ethic
4) Had big emotional issues
>"Getting a college degree is viewed as the ticket to the American dream,"
And there is one of the many mistaken views. A degree is just a tool, a credential. It does NOT replace having a skillset, ability, drive, ethics, communications ability, reasoning, etc. Plus, not all degrees are the same.
I've told this story before (Score:5, Interesting)
But it bears repeating.
I worked in public K-12 IT, was friends with the ladies in HR for the district. One day, early in the school year, my friend in H.R. came into my office, she couldn't believe what she just went thru.
A college graduate from Brown came into HR, asking about being a substitute teacher. She explained he was welcome to apply, but there was no guarantee he'd be called up. Since there were a lot of locals on the list (affluent area, lots of bored housewives and retired folks in town).
Then she said the position paid $85/day (this was 2012), and he started crying.
See, he borrowed over $50K/year for 4 years to get a degree in Theater Management, only to find there were no high-paying jobs in theater management for folks with no practical experience.
He had $200K in loans, and couldn't find ANY jog that could even approach his monthly payment on that 6 figure loan.
Everyone in this kids life failed him, they all sat by and watched him rack up unimaginable debt - he would have been better-served volunteering at a theater for 4 years then going to Brown for four years on borrowed money.
Re: (Score:2)
Yep. It's absolute hell finding a job without experience in the field - whatever the field.
You've got to start at the bottom somewhere, and good luck finding a place which doesn't require some form of experience for an entry level job. Better do that without several year's of income in debt searing a hole in your soul.
Re: (Score:2)
Regulations (Score:5, Insightful)
Loan and financial aid organisations, if not the governemnt, MUST require universities to publish independent survey results on what that major's graduates are earning 1, 5, and 10 years after their degree. They should also ask if they regret the major. They must also be required to show disclose these results to students, if the earning result shows that the loan payback is going to be more than 15% of their after tax earnings .. they must sign a waiver before getting the loan. Furthermore the federal government should NOT give out loans to people if they aren't likely to make enough money to comfortably pay it back.
You need (a reasonable) purpose! (Score:3)
Listening to my kids who have gone/are going to college, I am not surprised. Many students bounce from major to major, have no direction or idea what to do, why, or how. Without reasonable purpose and a lack of understanding of the consequences, going to college often makes no sense, especially costs considered. Your mileage may vary. But the college won't care ...
The problem is that many kids get failed by their family, counselors (do NOT get me started on college counselors!), friends, media, colleges, .... a long list.
Full disclosure: Went into STEM myself, became a scientist. I picked a niche (different from where I started because I realized I did not want to work in that field), did not go down the beaten path (or the "in" path - fads are a real thing in science, too). Turned out alright. No regrets.
My kids do the same: plotting a path that makes sense for them and the environment we are in, best as we can anticipate it. And "how to make it worth your while financially" is a crucial part of it. Has to be.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't get A/V on you kids... (Score:2)
That shit doesn't wipe off.
Yeah you're the only one who can thread the projector. Don't. Tell. ANYONE.
It's a career-limiter.
Re: (Score:2)
Well it was either the A/V club or the chess club.
What a coincidence! (Score:2)
What a coincidence! Over half of the people who graduate from college graduate with a Bachelor of Arts in something that isn't particularly useful and doesn't have readily available jobs.
You only need so many Bachelor of Arts in Psychology.
It's Funny (Score:5, Interesting)
I could have a degree in theater, and if I asked one of the military branches nicely, they would not only offer me a paying job (with no possibility of a layoff), but they would almost certainly offer me the chance to become an officer.
There was a point only a few years ago where a newly graduated nurse who had passed their boards would be offered a commission as an O-3 in both the Navy and the Army: a rank normally reserved for doctors with an M.D. They had their choice of assignments, page after page of benefits and six years with no layoffs.
The Navy puts other O-3s at the controls of $30 million aircraft armed with enough high explosives to level nine city blocks and then trains them to land that aircraft on a 400 square foot target aboard a moving aircraft carrier at night.
Yet for some reason that same young person can't even get an interview in Bob the fatfuck's shitty half-assed corporate office-in-a-trailer company parked behind the Panda Express.
So what's the problem? I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's Bob.
Waiting too long after grad (Score:3)
If you come out of school and work for a couple of years as waiter in a restaurant and apply for a college-level job, the employer will look at that work experience and not see relevance
I have a kid who just graduated and has been doing well as a server in a nice restaurant. I keep telling her to stay in the education game (e.g., go to grad school in town) while sorting out what direction to take. But they (our kids) have to take the initiative at some point if you want to climb the white collar ladder.
Meanwhile there are skilled labour shortages (Score:3)
In short, we should be investing more in vocational training. If we want more people to go into higher education, then offer pathways from skilled jobs, e.g. vocational degree programmes that build on existing knowledge, skills, & attitudes gained initially from vocational training & through experience on the job. It's not dissimilar to some medical career pathways.
For those who want to & are able to pursue academic careers, nothing changes.
Half of college degrees...aren't (Score:2)
That might be due to the fact that half of all college degrees are not worthy of the name. I thought it was a joke, but you really can get a bachelor's degree in Floral Design [ncsu.edu]. Seriously, WTF?
There are lots of professions that are better served by trade schools and/or an apprenticeship system. Spending four years in the classroom is entirely the wrong way to learn practical skills, whether it's flower arranging or carpentry. However, unscrupulous colleges and universities are happy to take your money and
Re: (Score:3)
You know the stats for degrees (Score:2, Troll)
Those might not maximize shareholder value, but why is that the only yardstick we have left anymore? Remember the New Deal?