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United Kingdom Power

Why the UK's Power Grid is Sidelining Clean-Energy Battery Storage (ft.com) 91

Posted by EditorDavid from the power-to-the-people dept.
The administrators of Great Britain's power grid admit that it's often unable to use energy-storage batteries due to old computer systems and an old network with "not enough cables", according to the Financial Times — though the system operator says they're making progress after upgrading their system last December: The company has plans to lower the rate at which batteries are sidelined to single figures by early next year [said Craig Dyke, from National Grid's electricity system operator], calling current levels "higher than where we want them to be". Dyke's comments came in response to a letter from four leading battery storage groups which said National Grid's "electricity system operator" or ESO division was making the country's power costlier and dirtier by failing to use their technology properly. "Consumers are paying more, clean renewable energy is being wasted, and fossil fuel generation is being used instead," they said... depriving them of revenue and undermining investor confidence.
While the U.K. has the world's second-largest offshore wind market, the article notes that when the system operator can't send its power where it's needed, "the ESO pays wind farms in one place to switch off... and can also need to pay gas-fired power plants in another area to turn on. These payments add up to hundreds of millions of pounds each year, and the costs are passed on to household and business energy bills."

"Use of battery storage abroad has soared in places such as California, where batteries soak up solar power during the day and regularly supply a fifth of the state's power in the evening..."

Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader AmiMoJo for sharing the article.

Why the UK's Power Grid is Sidelining Clean-Energy Battery Storage More | Reply

Why the UK's Power Grid is Sidelining Clean-Energy Battery Storage

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  • What a waste... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by gavron ( 1300111 ) on Sunday September 22, 2024 @04:32AM (#64807077)

    Slow SlashDotWeekend?

    > can't send its power where it's needed,

    Power isn't "sent". There is a demand for power and power is transmitted. Battiers are on of the sources where stored power can be retriieved.

    What DO those high paid "storage managers" do? They turn on and off things to avoid overloading the grid (see above), causing power plant starvation, etc. They don't actually control PRODUCTION of power, or DISTRIBUTION of power, other than a really gross (as in not-fine) adjustment of how the power that exists addresses the nees of the power that is needed.

    Are bats bad? No, not at all. They're a stored power source that helps meet periods where demand exceeds PRODUCTION. We can fix production but that creates a SUPPY that in times of non-need goes to waste (but could charge bats).

    But hey, it's SlashdotWeekend.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      To be fair, the UK grid, like most of Western Europe, is very stable. Power outages are rare and only happen due to physical damage to the network, e.g. severe storms or construction accidents.

      We don't have issues like in the US where the grid operator and the generators are to blame for problems.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by ls671 ( 1122017 )

        Do you live in the UK or another part of Western EU? Have you stayed/visited enough parts of the US to justify your take on the topic or you only rely on reports you get? If so, who provides the reports?

        My experience is that the US grid is on average at least as reliable as the EU one.

      • To be fair, the UK grid, like most of Western Europe, is very stable. Power outages are rare and only happen due to physical damage to the network, e.g. severe storms or construction accidents.

        We don't have issues like in the US where the grid operator and the generators are to blame for problems.

        One of the first problems is trying to compare the UK grid to the US grid.

        When it is a flex to proclaim the superiority of all things Europe and Brexitland, where do you get your reports regarding the failed/failing US power grid?

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Well there is the Texas grid, which I accept is a basket case even by US standards. Then there was Enron...

          Looking at historic data though, it does seem that issues related to grid stability (rather than extreme weather or sabotage) are more common in the US.

          • Well there is the Texas grid, which I accept is a basket case even by US standards. Then there was Enron...

            Looking at historic data though, it does seem that issues related to grid stability (rather than extreme weather or sabotage) are more common in the US.

            The Texas grid, as it's name implies is not part of the American grid, but a product of kooks - the Jesus grid or some other tomfoolery. While they shivered and some died in the dark, the states nearby enjoyed uninterrupted electricity.

            Ah yes - Enron. Criminal activity.

            Our grid is huge and despite the propaganda, works pretty well. The difference is probably because if there is a power outage in the USA, it is held up as the failure of our ideology, which is the very base of your Enron/Texas grid as

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              How big do you think the UK is? Because a million without power is a very small fraction...

              That event was due to weather, as I recall. For most people here, power cuts are something that happen once every few decades, if that. The last one here was in the early 2000s and was due to some water people accidentally tripping a breaker that affected around 10 houses. Mine was only half affected - electricity stayed on, but the internet went down as it took out the street cabinet that I was connected to.

              • How big do you think the UK is?

                The size of a few small postage stamps, with a population matching California + Texas. And hopefully for Ireland the UK gets smaller still soon.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by jonwil ( 467024 )

      The problem in this case is that they don't have enough capacity in the long-distance transmission lines to be able to move power from the places where there is too much renewable generation (e.g. wind turbines) to the places where there is high demand.

    • Power isn't "sent". There is a demand for power and power is transmitted.

      transÂmit /tranzËmit,tran(t)sËmit/
      verb
      verb: transmit; 3rd person present: transmits; past tense: transmitted; past participle: transmitted; gerund or present participle: transmitting

      cause (something) to pass on from one place or person to another.
      "knowledge is transmitted from teacher to student"

      broadcast or send out (an electrical signal or a radio or television program).
      "the p

  • Privatisation (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Viol8 ( 599362 ) on Sunday September 22, 2024 @04:54AM (#64807105) Homepage

    This is what happens when you privatise basic utlities that are a monopoly. As they have no competition they become more interested in servicing dividend payments and maintaining share price via ever higher charges than improving the the infrastructure they're responsible for. Water companies are another example of this failed model.

    • I will admit that my favorite utilities have always been cooperatives.

    • It is more complicated that just privitisation.

      One solution to the problem they are noting is to put a battery next to where the wind power onshores. And another battery next to the nearby cities.

      Now, as well as having storage for when wind supply varies, you can reduce the requirement on the grid connection; with a big enough batteries at either end, it only needs to cope with the average supply and average demand (which, with luck, are the same), not the peak demand and peak supply.

      Problem is, the nationa

    • I think it is all a bit more complicated than that. They privatised the market here in Belgium. Plenty of players, government forcing high investments to make the grid more dynamic. Penalties for consumers that have a too high peak power consumption. Still plenty of trouble keeping the grid up though. All in a day's work.

      • I think it is all a bit more complicated than that. They privatised the market here in Belgium. Plenty of players, government forcing high investments to make the grid more dynamic. Penalties for consumers that have a too high peak power consumption. Still plenty of trouble keeping the grid up though. All in a day's work.

        An AC Power grid is quite a complicated thing. There is a lot of switching sources to keep it all running and generating power at the right frequency. and turbine generators have to be tightly controlled to avoid loss of load overspin. Batteries are actually a godsend when plumbed into the grid. Someone mentioned them acting as a sort of capacitor. But even if not used to store renewable power, they make a nice method of power response/balancing.

        Not to mention the next step of making wind and solar into

    • This is what happens when you privatize basic utilities that are a monopoly. As they have no competition they become more interested in servicing dividend payments and maintaining share price via ever higher charges than improving the the infrastructure they're responsible for. Water companies are another example of this failed model.

      A common sentiment, and one with zero evidence. The effects of privatization on the energy industry is actually fairly well studied, as we have examples of extremely poorly performing publicly owned utilities being made private (entire nations, municipal utilities, the works) and vice versa where formerly private utilities were bought out or nationalized. There actually isn't any clear pattern of success or failure, nor is there any consistent data indicating private vs public ownership performs vastly bett

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by rgmoore ( 133276 )

        I think the big mistake is not so much privatizing a public utility as privatizing a well functioning public utility for ideological reasons. If a public utility is doing a good job, don't sell them off just because you have a generalized desire to shrink the public sector. Very often, that ideological commitment to shrinking the public sector just happens to be funded by the people who want to buy the newly privatized business for less than it's worth. In the same vein, focus your desire to nationalize

    • Ironically, it was the EU in a series of directives beginning in 1966 that dictated that energy markets had to be liberalised ostensibly to increase competition and benefit consumers. It worked well for a while, until it didn't.

  • Battery storage will never scale up to anything more than a few hours' storage to smooth out demand peaks. Even covering a few days of low renewable generation isn't feasible. Case in point, the UK already has Europe's largest grid battery storage facility. It cost £75 million and holds a 98 MWh, enough to power the UK for a few seconds.

    The best way of managing a surplus or deficit of wind energy is via interconnection with other markets, and the UK has a number of those with more in the planning stag

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Battery storage will never scale up to anything more than a few hours' storage to smooth out demand peaks. Even covering a few days of low renewable generation isn't feasible. Case in point, the UK already has Europe's largest grid battery storage facility. It cost £75 million and holds a 98 MWh, enough to power the UK for a few seconds.

      The best way of managing a surplus or deficit of wind energy is via interconnection with other markets, and the UK has a number of those with more in the planning stages.

      Not that long ago battery storage wasn't even supposed to be able to do that. Now batteries "...regularly supply a fifth of the state's [California's] power in the evening...". You must be one of those people whose advice can be used as a reliable barometer for what not to do.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ls671 ( 1122017 )

      Battery storage will never scale up to anything more than a few hours' storage to smooth out demand peaks. Even covering a few days of low renewable generation isn't feasible. Case in point, the UK already has Europe's largest grid battery storage facility. It cost £75 million and holds a 98 MWh, enough to power the UK for a few seconds.

      The best way of managing a surplus or deficit of wind energy is via interconnection with other markets, and the UK has a number of those with more in the planning stages.

      Thanks for that, I can clearly see you see clearly :)

    • The question is how much storage do we need? It would be expensive to power the UK for days on end while all renewable power is switched off, just using batteries alone. But, we don't need that. Wind and solar do not behave like that anyway, but in addition we have nuclear (with HPC coming onstream soon), plus pumped and unpumped hydro.

      Add in a couple of percentage of tidal. Repurpose the nat gas facilities into green hydrogen for seasonal storage, with some seasonal thermal storage for the few places we ca

      • And, yes, as you note, that is before interconnect. The UK has multiple GW interconnect already and more coming.

      • Wind and solar do not behave like that

        They absolutely do. Solar output drops to almost nothing in the UK winter, my own panels are testament to that. As for wind, the entire British Isles can suffer from becalment for weeks at a time. The Germans even have a word for it: Dunkelflaute. No amount of storage, whether battery, hydro or whatever is going to see the grid through such a period.

        • Guaranteed supply contracts. Contracts that extend for weeks or even months to reserve alternate sources in the event yours is down. It's done all the time for traditional generation. Like when it's a drought year and your hydro reservoir is empty. You pay someone to be there, just in case. For wind/solar, there's no reason that can't be gas turbines and/or nuclear. Just pay them to maintain their systems on standby.

          And by "pay", I mean the solar/wind generators pay. After all, it's their unreliability we

        • Every time renewables is discussed, someone pops up and says "dunkelflaute".

          Yes, it's a known issue. It doesn't cause a complete loss of wind power, it rarely covers the whole on the UK onshore and offshore and it is well known in advance.

          First, the problem gets less as wind power gets more widespread. As floating wind comes to Scotland (which currently has little offshore) the problem will reduce significantly.

          For the rest, batteries will cover short duration drops, interconnect will cover longer duration.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by ac22 ( 7754550 )

            Good points, also worth mentioning that the UK has a large number of CCGT power plants which can be spun up quickly to cover any shortfalls from renewables.

            I downloaded the data for the UK's total power output for the past year in response to leathered post, using the same data I can see that:
            When wind is generating 10GW+, CCGT averages 5.82GW
            When wind is generating between 5GW and 10GW, CCGT averages 7.15GW
            When wind is generating less than 5GW, CCGT averages 10.59GW

            So the two are complementary. Wind is pre

            • Indeed. And in the ten or fifteen years that it will take to build out enough renewables that we can start thinking about how to balance the grid without that gas, the technology will probably have advanced enough that we won't need to think about it too much; the answers are being developed and will be there.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by ac22 ( 7754550 )

          I'm not so sure. I downloaded the raw data for the last year re power from https://www.gridwatch.templar.... [templar.co.uk]

          What would you describe as "total becalment"?

          Wind 1.711GW or lower (5% of total power generated)
          6.2% of the time

          Wind 2.5% of total power generated or lower
          1.55% of the time

          Wind 1% of total power generated or lower
          0.26% of the time

          The longest consecutive time that wind power dropped below 1% in the last year was for 7 hours between 1930 24/02/2024 and 0240 25/02/2024. So the actual data doesn't support

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by ac22 ( 7754550 )

            I tried raising the threshold for "becalment" to wind power being under 5% of total power generated (1.711GW) in an attempt to further test your theory.

            Wind power below 1.711GW (5% of total)
            04/05/24 2035 - 11/05/24 00:55
            For 55.8% of those 6 days and 4 hours, the power contributed by wind was below 1.711GW (5% of total)
            The average power generated during that period was 1.762GW (5.15% of total power generated).

            I cherry-picked the absolute worst data for the past 12 months, and that was the best I could come u

          • Indeed. If you overlay this with solar, you will find some correlation but some of the wind lows will have been during summer. And, as we build more spread out wind farms, further to sea, those numbers will drop because the weather patterns get less correlated.

            We already produce 3GW of biogas (from sewage, agricultural waste and landfill). Instead of using that, store it and use that for on-demand power. It's enough.

      • > and a functional government.

        We haven't had one of those for at least 5 years, maybe more like 8-10. It's unclear if we have one now, but at least they're talking up a good job. They may be more focussed on fiddling with things they shouldn't touch, rather than this though - we'll see.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dvice ( 6309704 )

      I think iron-air battery will be so cost effective that the only upper limit is from the technology, which is 3 days. Of course making enough batteries to last for 3 days to cover all electricity usage on the USA would be a massive project, required hundreds of thousands of factories, which makes it unlikely to happen, but it would still be possible, if we just wanted to do it.

      > The best way of managing a surplus or deficit of wind energy is via interconnection with other markets

      I agree to some extend.

      • I think iron-air battery will be so cost effective that the only upper limit is from the technology, which is 3 days. Of course making enough batteries to last for 3 days to cover all electricity usage on the USA would be a massive project, required hundreds of thousands of factories, which makes it unlikely to happen, but it would still be possible, if we just wanted to do it.

        > The best way of managing a surplus or deficit of wind energy is via interconnection with other markets

        I agree to some extend. Problem is price difference between those markets. When you connect two markets well enough, the price on those markets will balance out. This means that it will create losers and winners. Those who are about to lose money, will most likely be against it.

        I'm a fan of Nickel-Iron batteries, but we're in the same neighborhood.

        Chemistry and development are the keys. Whether from old school Carbon/Zinc to the air batteries to Lithium to sodium. All pretty basic chemistry, so it's the development controlling things.

        You want toughness, the ability to withstand abuse. You want low cost and durability. You want the battery banks to have storage capacity for likely outages. There are a lot of potential (hehe) candidates, so pick a few and see what shakes out.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by whitroth ( 9367 )

      I see, so one storage facility to power the entire UK. Yup, perfectly clear.

      DUH!

  • Self-crediting? (Score:3)

    by Corbets ( 169101 ) on Sunday September 22, 2024 @07:08AM (#64807253) Homepage

    Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader AmiMoJo for sharing the article.

    Since it also says that you posted it, did you really need to thank yourself for it too?

    • Since it also says that you posted it, did you really need to thank yourself for it too?

      Users can't post anything. Only editors can. Users can submit stories, and it has been normal for editors who post their submission to the front page to thank the users submitting stories here for a couple of years now.

      Also what someone submits and what text ultimately gets posted to the front page is usually not the same. I'm frankly disappointed that I need to explain this to someone with your UID, I would have thought that being at this site for so long would mean you were more involved, but clearly you'

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Is this directed at me? I didn't write that bit. My original submission is here: https://slashdot.org/firehose.... [slashdot.org]

  • Ideally, battery storage should be in close proximity to solar, the solar can dump excess into batteries when demand is less than the electricity being generated, then later in the day, when the sun is beginning to go down, the battery can top up the power being fed in. That way the battery size doesn’t need to be too big, but helps even out and extend the generation window for solar. Battery storage isn’t really a viable solution to replace solar at night to cover the base load, that simply req

    • Ideally, battery storage should be in close proximity to solar

      It doesn't matter whether you put it near the point of production or the point of consumption, as long as it's either near one of those things or in between them. In each scenario you have the same transmission losses.

      Battery storage isnâ(TM)t really a viable solution to replace solar at night to cover the base load

      Right, you need wind for that. The UK has a [metric] shitload of offshore wind potential. The demand is much higher during the day, which is when the solar comes into the equation.

  • There's no money for anything.

  • Write power supply contracts for guaranteed delivery. Like utilities have always done in the past. When the sys op calls you and requests X megawatts to be brought on line, you do it. Either from your primary source, your secondary reserve capacity or a contract you have with another provider to provide a reserve. Or you'll get your supply contract cancelled. No whining about "my plant is off line for maintenance"*. Or "the sun's not out". You should have arranged a backup. Or taken your name off the suppli

  • Free electricity every so often in the UK (Score:3)

    by mhocker ( 607466 ) on Sunday September 22, 2024 @05:17PM (#64808343)

    UK resident here. I use a power company called Octopus and every couple of weeks, they send me an email saying "free power between 1-2 pm" or some other time. This isn't a joke or a scam, they actually explain it as having too much energy in the grid and they need to burn it off. Because I have a smart meter, they can simply not charge me for that time.

    They also have a night-time EV charging tariff which is 7p/kWh as opposed to the 35p/kWh which is again enabled by the smart meter.

    What makes me slightly surprised about this whole thing is that I had assumed that the whole grid was pretty smart. Turns out not to be the case.

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