Britain To Axe Up To 1.5 Million Lampposts (thetimes.com) 107
An anonymous reader shares a report:Around 1.5 million of Britain's 7.2 million lampposts could be removed to save money and reduce carbon emissions and replaced with lighting that will make it safer for pedestrians.
Under existing rules, there is no requirement to light pavements for pedestrians. They are only lit because light spills over from lampposts, which were principally installed to make it safer for motorists. But today's cars have such effective headlights that lampposts, which are generally 10m tall on A-roads and 6m tall on residential roads, are not necessary in many parts of Britain. Lampposts will remain in place in many locations where they are necessary, such as in cities where CCTV cameras rely on good lighting.
Under existing rules, there is no requirement to light pavements for pedestrians. They are only lit because light spills over from lampposts, which were principally installed to make it safer for motorists. But today's cars have such effective headlights that lampposts, which are generally 10m tall on A-roads and 6m tall on residential roads, are not necessary in many parts of Britain. Lampposts will remain in place in many locations where they are necessary, such as in cities where CCTV cameras rely on good lighting.
Re: Just another week in America (Score:2, Insightful)
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Bullshit. The so-called inflation was primarily caused by supply chain disruption, volatile energy prices, and price gouging. Stimulus spending was an insignificant factor.
Re: Just another week in America (Score:1)
Changing the narrative (Score:2)
Funny how the real reasons are at the very end of the article:
1) R&D and government contractors need a new decades long revenue source since all the 'easy' work of replacing bulbs with more energy efficient ones is nearly done
> Perry Hazell, president of the Institution of Lighting Professionals, said that almost 90 per cent of the savings which could be gained by installing low-energy LED lights in the country’s lampposts have already been achieved, and that is why more radical measures are no
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So you think replacing street lights with more energy efficient path lights is a conspiracy to depopulate villages and keep people in their homes. Completely paranoid and insane.
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You need help from a mental health professional. But I guess you're too far down the rabbit hole to understand that.
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You're correct. If it were ACTUAL inflation, gas prices would also go up, which they haven't.
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That was billionaires and corporate greed
We had very low inflation for decades, then there was a surge of inflation during Covid, and now we have low inflation again.
There are two possibilities:
1. Inflation was caused by a drop in production due to lockdowns followed by a surge of stimulus money. Once people returned to work, production recovered, stimulus spending stopped, and inflation abated.
2. Your theory, that corporations suddenly became greedy and then, three years later, stopped being greedy.
Which is more plausible?
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what if companies just used "Covid" and "inflation" and "stimulus" as excuses to raise prices
That is a profound misunderstanding of how businesses work.
Companies don't need an "excuse" to raise prices. "We want more profit" is a perfectly legitimate reason to raise prices and has been for thousands of years.
Of course, "We want more profit" is a perfectly legitimate reason to CUT prices as well, to boost sales volume at the expense of competitors.
raise prices more than they needed to
I have no idea what you are trying to say. In your mind, how is the "needed" price decided?
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Since you're already imagining, also imagine if there were actual decent jobs that pay a living wage that they could put their energy into.
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Re:Just another week in America (Score:4, Funny)
WTF has America got to do with a story about Britain? Do you have make everything about yourself?
America is technically a part of Britain although temporarily in a state of rebellion.
Re:Just another week in America (Score:5, Interesting)
America is technically a part of Britain although temporarily in a state of rebellion.
I like to think of America as where everyone who gave up on fixing the problems with their old country went for a fresh start at creating all new problems.
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I'm actually in favor of UBI but I doubt it would have any positive effect on reducing these thefts. UBI will make it easier for somebody to live off a low-paying job, and stealing copper is a low-paying job.
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It's more insidious than that. UBI will drive inflation, and probably will drive it hardest for the basic goods that we all need to have. The market will shift to take any available money. This won't hurt wealthy people, and it might not even hurt the absolute most destitute who already don't have enough money, but a true ubiquitous basic income across the entire population in the long term has the prospect of hurting the working-poor and the lower end of the middle class who will see prices for goods an
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Basic goods are subject to the same competition rules as now, and the added income can help with transportation (ie cars) so the poor can shop at better locations. More importantly, UBI will be paid for by taxes, and the tax rise will certainly be large enough that somebody making the current minimum wage will have their UBI completely cancelled by federal income tax, and everybody above that UBI will just be a large offset line on their 1040 form. It basically will be the same as welfare payments now, but
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I'm assuming this story is about what we in America refer to as "streetlights". Where I live in Florida, the only obvious maintenance issue seems to be that awhile back most of the high pressure sodium lamps were retrofit with LEDs, and due to defective bulbs they've been turning purple. [palmbeachpost.com]
I've never heard of crackheads stealing streetlights for scrap. Air conditioners, wiring from abandoned homes, rental scooters, and the cords from EV chargers, yes, but not streetlights.
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I've never heard of crackheads stealing streetlights for scrap.
Not crackheads, weed farmers. The old HPS lights made for passable grow lamps, and all the driver circuitry was in an easy to reach spot at the bottom behind an easy to open "lock". Not really a lock at all, just enough to keep kids (or anyone without a pair of pliers) out. These days you can order big LED panels in whatever wavelength(s) suit your fancy cheaply from China.
AC theft isn't a thing here. Not only is aircon exceedingly rare in homes, the homes that do have it don't use those window sill mounted
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Every HPS system I've had the misfortune of dealing with puts all of the driver circuitry up at the light itself, not down at the hand-hole on the pole. It's normal 120V, 240V, or 277V up the pole depending on the service area.
The NEMA socket on top of the poles for local control and now for accessory-taps is rated for this 120V-277V range.
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It's probably just drunk lumberjacks.
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Re: Just another week in America (Score:2)
Also known as... (Score:1, Insightful)
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Careful With That Axe, Eugene (Score:4, Funny)
Axes won't work:
a) Electrocution risk for the chopper
b) Passers-by may get Brained By Falling Masonry
Very bad idea.
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Yes, concrete lampposts were real. Oh, and... I forgot the link [discogs.com]... (side B is better)
You got me on the handles :-)
Either way: dangerous future for bystanders amidst all those swingers!
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Yes, concrete lampposts were real.
They were ugly as sin too.
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The ones on our street were not too bad and they had a fancy swan neck at the top with a nice white mercury bulb. They certainly looked nicer than the plain black metal ones with a much brighter light that they replaced them with while also reducing the number of them.
Where I grew up in Wales, they were just plain ugly hexagonal poles of concrete with a light on top. No swan neck to be seen.
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Even if the handle provides adequate insulation, the head shorting between live and neutral could produce a pretty nasty kick.
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Concrete lampposts used to be very common in the UK in towns although galvanized steel posts seem to have replaced them for the most part. I think somebody would have to be preeettty stupid to interfere with a lamp post of any kind, either attempting to climb it, steal copper or sabotage it for some reason. It's probably not going to go well for them.
And suffering will ensue (Score:2)
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Uniformity is more important than brightness. As long as they approach it logically it can improve things from a safety perspective. I would assume high pedestrian areas would be less likely to have role lights eliminated.
In the 90's there was a big push to light up many places in the name of safety. In many places it was grossly excessive. Hopefully they are setting good standards for where and when supplemental lighting is recommended.
Re:And suffering will ensue (Score:5, Interesting)
What could possibly go wrong? Crime likes a dark area, being the obvious outcome.
Even if the assumed premise were true this would not affect it as they are removing lamposts that illuminate the roadway. Generally the crime you are imagining being prevented would be on the side walks.
But the premise, is just one of those "obvious" bits of "common sense" that is actually not well supported by evidence [darksky.org]. In particular bad lighting,(which is very, very common - and the lamp posts in question are a good example of bad lighting - reduces you ability to observe your surroundings by obscuring it with glare.
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Also anyone who has walked down a foot path at night in the UK knows that street lights only provide intermittent visibility along the path since street lights might be 30m apart. Pedestrians get light as a side effect of the road but that's not so good if you have to walk past a bushes, an alley, a low wall or whatever in the dark. It may well be that in a lot of places it should be the road that gets light as a side effect of the foot path lighting rather than the other way around.
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Very much depends on the footpath. There are some which are brightly lit with closely spaced lampposts, some which are intermittently lit as you describe, and others which are completely unlit where you need to have your own light source to see where you're treading, and a 20 minute stroll can take in all three types.
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What could possibly go wrong? Crime likes a dark area, being the obvious outcome.
Even if the assumed premise were true this would not affect it as they are removing lamposts that illuminate the roadway. Generally the crime you are imagining being prevented would be on the side walks.
But the premise, is just one of those "obvious" bits of "common sense" that is actually not well supported by evidence [darksky.org]. In particular bad lighting,(which is very, very common - and the lamp posts in question are a good example of bad lighting - reduces you ability to observe your surroundings by obscuring it with glare.
Safety and self defence are something that people tend to sabotage themselves on a lot. They do things that make them think or feel that they're safer but actually make them more vulnerable. One thing people do is hug walls and building which tends to make you more vulnerable to ambush (more corners for bad guys to hide in), makes you less visible to observers and reduces your ability to spot approaching people.
I'm a self defence practitioner (Krav Maga) and a sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H gentleman who will walk a
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Oh I hope so. If criminals decide to stand in the middle of the roadway where these lampposts are being removed we'll have less criminals!
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Maybe he's thinking they'll lose a leg or something?
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Local councils have been turning off lighting from lamp posts in residential areas for over a decade now - I used to live on a street in 2014 which was directly opposite a rather notorious park, one which you did not ever walk through at night because of its poor lighting and opportunistic thugs wanting their drug money...
Rather than fixing the mugging issue, council decided to just turn off all lights after 10pm in winter in the surrounding residential estates - so now you couldnt walk anywhere and even wa
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Bright lights are perfect for muggers. They can hide in a deep shadow where a pedestrian can't see because the lights spoiled their night vision.
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Also for car thieves. Years ago I used to park my car under a lamp post, thinking it would be safer. I forgot to take my phone out of the car one night, and because the car was nicely lit, a passing opportunist was able to see my phone inside the car, broke the driver side window and stole my phone. They used a screwdriver or something similar and also managed to leave a nice big gouge in the upholstery immediately adjacent to the bottom of the window while doing so. The phone wasn't even a recent model - b
Re:And suffering will ensue (Score:4, Informative)
The vast majority of violent crime in the UK is domestic, where changes in street lighting patterns are unlikely to have much of an effect.
According to the UK's Office of National Statistics:
- "4.8% had experienced domestic abuse in the last year (approximately 2.3 million people)
- 3.2% (approximately 1.5 million people) had experienced stalking in the last year
- 2.1% (approximately one million people) had experienced sexual assault in the last year
- 0.7% (approximately 351,000 people) and 0.5% (approximately 256,000 people) had experienced violence with and without injury where the perpetrator was a stranger, or a non-domestic acquaintance in the last year, respectively
- 8.9% had experienced some form of harassment in the last year (approximately 4.3 million people); this estimate is not comparable with the previous year"
In general, violent crime in the UK is decreasing: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplep... [ons.gov.uk]
Apparently, the main areas of concern are sexual assault, stalking, & harassment offences, which have remained flat for the past 10 years. FFS, whoever's doing it, will they please stop!
The UK has no "stand your ground" laws, "self-defence" isn't an excuse, it's illegal for anyone to carry firearms in all but a few very narrow & restricted sets of circumstances, & carrying anything other than a small penknife anywhere in public can also get you arrested. If you buy a kitchen knife, keep it in the original packaging, in a bag, with the receipt in the unlikely even that the police question you about it. The UK ain't the USA.
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Mostly good info! The UK does have provisions for self-defence [wikipedia.org], mostly around using reasonable force to protect yourself. Killing someone for looking at you in a funny way will get you sent down for murder, but seriously hurting someone who came at you with a knife usually won't result in a conviction.
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That sucks.
I can't understand why they seem to be more pro
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Actually...very rare in real life.
Actually, it had been going down, year after year....except recently in cities where liberal DA's stopped prosecuting crimes.
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Listen, in the US, unless you are in "the hood" try to score some crack....your chances of getting shot or violent crime is VERY low....no one here is worried about it or gives it a though when they leave the house for the day.
You're watching too much extreme television over there.....the hood and a few of the large dense urban cities that went soft on crime are danger spots, but who wants to live in a sh
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Except the intent is clear from the article - replace street that light the footpath as a side effect of lighting the road with dedicated path lights. Presumably in some situations it is more efficient to have the less intense lights closer to the path than ones on the top of a 10m pole.
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With the introduction of LED lamposts everything has gotten a lot dimmer, especially when you are not walking along a main town road.
I preffered the sodium lamps. Not only where they brighter but they also were not the same colour as other lights that while driving you'd like to distinguish.
Aha (Score:1)
Lampposts will remain in place in many locations where they are necessary, such as in cities where CCTV cameras rely on good lighting.
Looks like someone's got their priorities straight. Fuck dark streets and let's go back to the dark ages. I can understand possible on roads. Where I live, most roads don't have lights, except at intersections, but for residential? Don't pedestrians also walk the sidewalks?
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Don't pedestrians also walk the sidewalks?
Haven't these pedestrians heard of flashlights/torches?
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I'm a big fan of flashlights and own probably over 50 of about 40 different models, including head-mounted ones. While I do have a tiny one in my pocket and also one on my phone, I really don't expect that I should have to walk around with them when walking around in residential neighborhoods. You can't expect people to walk to their grocery store and then have to juggle their grocery bags as well as a flashlight in order to make it back home.
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> juggle their grocery bags as well as a flashlight
Headlamps are great.
Especially the newish LED band ones. Excellent for working in crawlspaces too.
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Don't pedestrians also walk the sidewalks?
They walk on footpaths, which is not where the lamps are being removed from.
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In fact, based on the summary, it seems like they'll be adding them to footpaths.
Mo more leaning on a lamp post (Score:2)
Herman's Hermits "Leaning on a Lamp Post"
Originally written by George Formby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FzGy2RJs6Q
Narnia will finally get some more lighting (Score:2)
For all these years, they've had only ONE lamp post.
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And nobody ever explained where the gas came from for that. If the US find out that Narnia has oil, they'll invade because you can say "Mr Tumnus".
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The US has plenty of its own oil, thank you. As for wars over oil, to those who point to Iraq as an example, UK, and much of Europe, was deeply involved in that conflict too.
Mostly agree... (Score:3)
Light posts are still a good idea, but I suggest that they are turned off most of the time. They can remain off unless pedestrians are detected nearby and it is determined they should turn on. The big difference here is lights should be for pedestrians and not for drivers.
I find nighttime driving with street lights to be far more difficult then without. Especially if there is a light layer of water on the road - the resulting glare from street lights makes everything more difficult to see. Most notably, pedestrians or cyclists with inadequate lighting. Other motorists are not a problem as they are always well illuminated.
Having street lights illuminate only when pedestrians / cyclists are close by would give drivers advanced warning that such hazards are present. So turning the lights off will not only save power but also increase safety by emphasizing the presence of pedestrians and cyclists.
Such behaviour would require that we identify when lights are not able to correctly detect cyclists / pedestrians. Lights that do not behave correctly actually become a liability. But if all the lights are connected via a wireless sensor network and detected events are communicated to a central source, it should be reasonable to identify those lights that never detect events despite being adjacent to lights which always detect multiple events. Keeping the system accurate and reliable should not be a problem. I say this but they still haven't solved the problem of automatically identifying intersections which do not correctly identify vehicles.
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I find nighttime driving with street lights to be far more difficult then without.
At least here in the USA, I prefer the streetlights because:
Low beams don't illuminate shit. I'm thoroughly convinced their only purpose is to make your vehicle more visible at night to other motorists.
High beams annoy motorists on the oncoming side, and at least in every car I've ever owned they don't actually represent an increase in brightness, just a change in beam pattern where the light is aimed further down the road.
I do remember reading at some point that cars over in Europe have better headlights
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Re: Mostly agree... (Score:2)
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I really don't want a light that turns on and off in front of my house.
I do like the new pedestrian lights the city put in though, they're warmer light, not as oppressively bright, and closer to the ground.
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I helped a friend install some solar powered outdoor lighting at his house some time ago.
Even had motion / light sensors. Once it was dark enough, it lights up dimly, and when motion was detected, it changed to a higher brightness. And once it became brighter, about 5-6am, it shuts down.
Was about 20 bucks, from before covid, if I recall correctly. Ordered it from the banggood.com website (another china based seller of all sorts of products).
Still working reasonably well, although I think the battery needs t
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The problem with presence detection is that anyone living nearby will have a light randomly flickering on and off all night.
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I thought we'd solved this problem with curtains ?
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Do you also think UK cities are under Sharia law? Because that's the level your drivel is at.
Then? (Score:2)
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> What next, stop paving the sidewalks?
Given the state of some of our roads and pavements, that policy may already be in effect. Every time I walk down a horribly uneven pavement I do wonder how on earth wheelchair users, or even people with a kid in a push chair could ever get down it. My county council isn't broke yet, but a lot of them are, and so they just can't spend money on stuff like that. Sadly, it's been that way for about 20 years (hence the crappy pavements), and shows no sign of improving.
It's trading one problem for another higher $ one. (Score:4, Informative)
In keeping with Dark Sky principles, our area has fewer streetlights, and they're designed with shields to minimize skyward glare. Homeowners are also restricted to using exterior lights of 800 lumens or less (equivalent to 60-watt incandescent bulbs) in warm white only.
What Does This Setup Get Us?
- Increased use of home outdoor lighting: People tend to leave their outdoor lights on longer to compensate for the dark streets.
- Darker streets: Reduced street lighting makes it challenging to see pedestrians and critters at night, even with modern headlights.
- Other hazards: The lack of sufficient lighting is a challenge for bikers and pedestrians.
Does It Save Money?
Let's break it down:
A typical LED streetlight uses about 120 watts, lighting the area in front of around 8 homes. If each of these 8 houses uses three 8-watt LEDs (60-watt incandescent equivalent), that's 24 watts per house or 192 watt-hours each for an extra 4 hours of use each night. Multiplied by 8 houses, this is 1,536 watt-hours, compared to 960 watt-hours for a single streetlight over 8 hours, and with the street light you get coverage all night.
Cost Comparison of Streetlight vs. Household Lighting
Streetlight Costs:
Total installation: $2,000 - $5,000, including the pole.
Lamp replacement: The lamp itself costs around $200 and lasts 20-25 years, while the pole (the most expensive part) lasts significantly longer.
Household Lighting Costs:
Bulbs: An 8-watt LED costs around $2.50, lasting about 5 years outdoors. Each house here uses 3 bulbs, which for 8 houses, costs around $60 every 5 years, or $120 over 10 years.
So, we’re looking at $100 for streetlight hardware over 10 years versus $120 for residential bulbs.
So, all else being equal and in short, it seems that streetlights are more cost effective over time due to their efficiency and durability, not to mention the broader, safer coverage they provide.
Go figure.
only so we cant use them for the second (Score:1)
Reduce lamppost-related injuries (Score:2)
Stupid pedestrians (Score:3)
Dark Skies FTW (Score:3)
Yay for dark skies!
Combatting light pollution has been something I've been interested in since I was 10 in 1990 and looking through my telescope at things I should have been able to see with my naked eye.
A few years back (I think 2020) I stayed in a cottage in Cornwall for a holiday. It was a few miles out from the nearest (small) town and the area was generally very low density villages with NO street lighting at all. Driving through one of those at night, as houses and pubs literally appear out of the blackness, wow that’s spooky.
Anyway, the first night I was in that cottage I woke up and opened my eyes: blackness! I mean, I couldn’t see a sodding thing. Even at home with my blackout curtains and night adapted eyes I can see stuff in my bedroom in the dead of night but this was f*cking freaky! Bloody BLACK everywhere. I managed to locate the curtains, naturally expecting there to be some light outside like a security light or whatever, the sort of thing a townie would expect, and I pulled them back.
BLACK. No lights. Apart from the galaxy above me. Now as a long time amateur astronomer I was totally aware of light pollution etc etc but I was not prepared to actually see a dark sky, and yet this area wasn’t even classed as a dark sky (only a few places in the UK can qualify). I just happened to have all these things line up, a cottage with no outdoor lighting for miles, a tiny town and villages with zero street lighting. I hadn’t intended to see anything like that so you can imagine the surprise I got.
The room was literally lit now; by starlight.
Remember that scene in the first HP movie where Harry stares out the boys tower window with Hedwig during the first night? Well besides lacking an owl, that was me for the next hour or so. I didn’t have anything to guide me, no star maps, nothing I just looked up and just looked.
Most of the population of the UK literally have no f*cking idea what they can’t see above their heads. They literally have no clue. Even the ones that go to music festivals barely notice due to the smartphones destroying their night adaption and general lighting around the camp site.
I've never liked our obsession with trying to light up the sky at night (trying to “light up the clouds” is how I usually refer to it). Sure, it supposedly cuts crime, although the crims will be just as blind as you are without the lights. But do they have to be on ALL NIGHT? Why are the streetlights all on from 1am? Who really needs to be out there? And chances are, if you are out there at 1am you are probably up to no good, or have a torch perhaps? Why not have lights that auto-dim when no human walks beneath them for 10 mins?
The UK has been awwing and ahhing at the sight of the Arora, way more frequently than ever before I mean it was normally next to impossible to see it in the UK unless you were in Scotland and that was a stretch. Now we see it almost every FEW WEEKS. But where I live the sky is painted with the glow of everyone’s garden lights, street lights, security lights that are ALLWAYS ON etc.
Turn them off please.