Chinese Scientists Have No Choice But To Leave US, Top Mathematician Says (scmp.com) 213
China should focus on developing original technologies and scientific knowledge and leverage the expertise of scientists returning from the United States, according to a top Chinese-American mathematician. From a report: Yau Shing-Tung retired from Harvard University in 2022 to teach at Tsinghua University and help China become a maths powerhouse.
He said many ethnic Chinese students had been driven away from the US by discrimination from the government, including accusations of misusing American research funds for China's benefit.
"Chinese scientists have no choice but to leave the US because they work best under a supportive research environment," he said. "This exodus is unfortunate for the US as it could diminish its research capabilities. For China, the return of these scientists means it is gaining top talent, but it also results in weakened ties with the US and a loss of first-hand knowledge of advanced technologies."
An increasing number of leading scientists are leaving the West for Chinese institutions. Yau's maths centre at Tsinghua in Beijing is one example where top foreign mathematicians have been recruited. In a survey of 1,300 US-based scientists of Chinese descent conducted between late 2021 and early 2022, 72 per cent of respondents said they did not feel safe as academic researchers. And 61 per cent said they had thought about leaving the United States for either Asian or non-Asian countries.
"Chinese scientists have no choice but to leave the US because they work best under a supportive research environment," he said. "This exodus is unfortunate for the US as it could diminish its research capabilities. For China, the return of these scientists means it is gaining top talent, but it also results in weakened ties with the US and a loss of first-hand knowledge of advanced technologies."
An increasing number of leading scientists are leaving the West for Chinese institutions. Yau's maths centre at Tsinghua in Beijing is one example where top foreign mathematicians have been recruited. In a survey of 1,300 US-based scientists of Chinese descent conducted between late 2021 and early 2022, 72 per cent of respondents said they did not feel safe as academic researchers. And 61 per cent said they had thought about leaving the United States for either Asian or non-Asian countries.
South China Morning Post (Score:5, Interesting)
article is pay-walled, so I'll just lament how SCMP was once know for editorial independence, even when owned by Rupert Murdoch.
And now it is a mouthpiece for the China Communist Party in Beijing.
https://www.spiegel.de/interna... [spiegel.de]
Re:South China Morning Post (Score:4, Interesting)
article is pay-walled, so I'll just lament how SCMP was once know for editorial independence, even when owned by Rupert Murdoch. And now it is a mouthpiece for the China Communist Party in Beijing. https://www.spiegel.de/interna... [spiegel.de]
I've been a subscriber to SCMP for a few years although I live in the USA and don't love the CCP. I thought it might be useful in terms of investing to get information from there and I've been to Hong Kong a few times. I won't be renewing my subscription when it runs out. It is just a mouthpiece for the CCP now. And as one wise man said within the past year - "Investing in communism is a bad idea". They post a ton of crybaby stuff about how the USA is being so mean to them and everything the CCP does is fantastic and people who don't love the CCP are evil. I've had enough.
People will go (Score:5, Insightful)
People will go were the funds are, it is bad now, wait in a few months when trump takes over. With his war on education, he will hand China many good researchers we have in the US.
I know a researcher who had a chance to go to another country a few years ago (english speaking country), but they wanted to stay here. From a short talk, looks like a they expect a cut next year from the feds. The only researchers the US cares about are the ones researching how to kill people, all others, too bad.
So right now seems Yau Shing-Tung is correct.
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..wait in a few months when trump takes over. With his war on education..
China has more honor students than the United States has students in total. Has for years now. If you think we could ever win a war with China on education, you’re doing the math wrong.
And our “Ivy League” of political activist degenerate “educators” are about to see the price they pay for prioritizing politics over education. I have no fucking idea why foreigners still find value in even having the name on a diploma. Americans don’t anymore.
Re: People will go (Score:5, Insightful)
Honor roll means nothing unless you have a consistent set of rules for how they're allocated. It could simply mean that the school has really low standards. This is why colleges used the SAT and such to try to figure out what the true ability of incoming students were and not just look at class rankings or GPA.
As best I could tell back when I was in undergrad 25-ish years ago, foreign students were much less concerned about 'academic integrity' rules. They were about even with the frat boys when it came to cheating to pass tests. You might get high grades, but do you really learn anything?
If that's the way their educational system gets so many honor roll students, I wouldn't be scared of them... but part of the reason that we try to keep the people who came to school here is because there's a good chance that they're now better educated than they'd have otherwise been. And do you want that education being used here or back home?
In an ideal situation, there were also more efforts to bring them into to culture... so it was a sort of soft power cultural exchange type thing... but instead with all of the blatant racism (especially after 9/11 and the pandemic) we end up with people who are pissed off at Americans and are easier for terrorists to recruit them. And they now have people inside the US who may have access to trade secrets or similar.
The easiest solution is to not allow people from countries that the US has issues with to even come in the first place... but the universities LOVE those students because it helps them show how diversified they are (they collect countries like kids collect Pokémon) and because those kids typically pay a higher rate, helping to subsidize the in-state students.
Quite simply, it's not a black-and-white situation. I've seen first-hand corruption from foreign professors (Nabih Bedewi), and was retaliated against by the school when I tried to point out questionable stuff that he was doing in 1995 (years before his arrest: https://www.oig.dot.gov/librar... [dot.gov] )
Re:People will go (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't win a war you aren't trying to fight.
Everyone always laments the quality of our public education system, and then does absolutely nothing about it. Where's the huge funding increases in order to be able to outfit schools with the resources necessary to teach students properly? Where's the funding increases to actually pay teachers to teach, and hire teachers that actually know what the hell they're talking about?
It's nowhere. Public education has been strangled for 30 years by the purse strings to the point that the best idea our incoming administration has is to completely kill it off at the federal level and let public schools sink while states redirect whatever funding they've got to "voucher" systems to enrich private schools with public funds. And in the meantime, anyone who can't get a voucher or can't afford the private school gets a substandard education that relegates them into shitty jobs and a dream of becoming middle class *someday* at best.
A lot of politicians learned long ago that if they hamstring education, voters don't have the necessary skills to call them on their bullshit because they don't have the critical thinking capacity to *know* it's bullshit. Fast forward to today, and we get what we got from this last election: electing a guy promising to do things he can't actually do because it's legally or logistically impossible; promising to do things that would cause lasting damage to the economy and global stability - essentially voting against their own interests, while also largely electing members of Congress from the opposite party on the exact same ballot.
Fixing education fixes so many other downstream problems it's not even funny, but we can't do that because a significant segment of the political class *want* a broken education system because it gives them an advantage.
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Re:People will go (Score:5, Informative)
You can't win a war you aren't trying to fight.
Everyone always laments the quality of our public education system, and then does absolutely nothing about it.
wait for it...
Where's the huge funding increases in order to be able to outfit schools with the resources necessary to teach students properly?
and THERE it is - the go-to argument that is the root of why nobody does anything.
According to the Department of Education's own statistics [ed.gov], the US was 5th in education spending per-capita in 2019, at roughly $15,500/student/year, roughly 15% more than Germany, Netherlands, or the UK, and 50% more than Japan or Israel.
Whenever the "do something" folks come around, the solution is ALWAYS "spend more". We've done that. We've done that for decades. We've thrown money at the problem and all we've gotten is a well-funded problem (complaining, of course, that it is not, in fact, well-funded).
Where's the funding increases to actually pay teachers to teach, and hire teachers that actually know what the hell they're talking about?
On one hand, the median teacher salary in 2022 nationwide [study.com] was $62,000/year, with the top ten percent of teachers earning six figures. Not neurosurgeon money, but considerably more than minimum wage in most states and districts.
On the other hand, $15,500/student * 30 students / class = $465,000 / classroom / year. Why the median salary is 13% of the gross revenue of an average sized classroom is beyond me, but if the real concern is teachers' wages, the solution is to increase that percentage, rather than saying that $465,000 isn't enough funding. Even bumping that to 20% would make the median teachers' salary $93,000/year, with $372,000 per classroom still left for the administration to light on fire.
I would submit for your consideration that spending more money exacerbates the problem, rather than solving it. I would submit that the issue isn't necessarily the quality of teachers, but instead the involvement of parents. Ask all of the teachers you know about what makes their jobs easier, and it's parental involvement and support. Not helicopter parents or pass-my-failing-child-or-else parents, but parents who teach their children at home and help with homework and provide structure for the child that the teacher can leverage. Given the choice between the majority of their students' parents doing that, and an extra $200/month of classroom funding, I'm certain that the majority of teachers would prefer the parental involvement.
I went to college for IT. While there's a piece-here, piece-there amount of information from the different classes I took, there were two classes that I can say were the most useful of any I took: Cisco/CCNA (understanding TCP/IP is indeed helpful in my daily tasks), and...critical thinking. So yes, funding is helpful (though I submit that there are enough companies who can donate enough surplus gear for a Cisco class if needed), but Critical Thinking is timeless, which we seem to agree upon:
A lot of politicians learned long ago that if they hamstring education, voters don't have the necessary skills to call them on their bullshit because they don't have the critical thinking capacity to *know* it's bullshit.
The ability to break down a problem into its fundamentals and rebuild it one brick at a time until things are sorted is what enables me to work with systems I haven't used before. It enables me to figure out the problem that different users are trying to convey, even if they don't have the technical vocabulary to describe it. It enables me to ascertain whether described solutions have a good probability of working, or if they're AI-generated slop that will just waste time. And despite it being the most useful
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People will go were the funds are, it is bad now, wait in a few months when trump takes over. With his war on education, he will hand China many good researchers we have in the US.
This is true. People go where the money is. But personal compensation is far more important than funds for the actual research, like for equipment. However, it depends on the type of research. Many types of research, like math, don't require expensive equipment.
In Silicon Valley, AI research has a lot of Chinese researchers, and these are Chinese from China weren't born in the US. In the last few years, this has been increasing and not decreasing.
The Chinese researchers are smart. They realize that personal
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Hey, you know what? Our education system in America has become such a joke, it needs a "war" on it. I don't care if it's started by a clueless idiot like Trump or somebody else -- but time to tear it down and rebuild/rethink it, regardless.
We've got endless stories of grade schools, middle schools and high schools with sex scandals with teachers and students. We've got people graduating who don't even have a 4th. grade reading level. Our colleges are more worried about pushing agendas with courses like "Wo
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He wants books that aim to teach first graders how to give blow jobs removed from school libraries.
Really? I didn't know he was planning to ban the Bible, since it has instructions for rape, murder, genocide, abortions and a few other good topics.
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Really? Wow, that's awful. Actual instructions for how to rape? Or, instructions for abortion? I don't remember seeing any of this. Do the abortion instructions include how to use a coat hanger... in a dirty alley?
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Of course you don't because you choose not to. Go to Number 5, verses 19 - 22 which talks about how to perform an abortion.
As for rape, there are multiple ways to rape someone so trying ot pin down a specific instruction is pointless. But hey, it's the Bible, where a man says to a bunch of strangers, "Ignore the men in my house. Instead, do what you want with my two
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These same daughters then sleep with this same father who tried to have them raped. So there's your incest.
99.99999% sure that this father got drunk and then raped them both, and then claimed they got him drunk and raped him.
Re: People will go (Score:2)
Inventing imaginary problems then knocking them down like a strawman is not at all impressive.
pearl clutcher won't think of the children (Score:2)
You put excessive weight on these "specific instances". It makes me suspect there is a fault in your analysis methodology.
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You are one of those people who doesn't seem to be able to do your own analysis of a problem to figure out where the problems come from. Now, first up, you can't figure out that the books for those who are aimed for those 11 years old and up are going to go into subjects that are actually appropriate for them. Let people try to figure out who and what they are, and give them the tools to figure it out for themselves. That isn't "indoctrination" to tell people that if they don't seem to fit into "conse
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Congratulations, you're an idiot. I didn't say education is leftist indoctrination. I identified two elements that have been injected into what we call education as being, specifically, leftist indoctrination. You should practice reading comprehension.
Please keep defending the practice of te
Re: People will go (Score:2)
Do you have a list of these books? What percentage of a typical school library do they constitute?
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Do you have a list of these books? What percentage of a typical school library do they constitute?
Do you have a percentage that is somehow acceptable in your mind? If I told you “only” 5% of books were enabling exposure to inappropriate content, would you somehow feel relieved?
Just to clarify, anything above zero would be the appropriate answer here. The definition of “woman” was already lost in trans-lation. Do you intend to do the same with “child” with this line of questioning? What is the point in asking this? Censoreship isn’t the reason. We already
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*inappropriate answer here.
Re: People will go (Score:2)
So that's a "no"
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First link is talking about a HIGH SCHOOL library, not elementary school.
Second link is largely an argument about asking the aggrieved person to use the existing processes for dealing with their issue, and not waste the school board's time when they've already established a delegated process for this kind of thing. Also, the content he was reading was about how to ambiguate identifying markings in pictures before sending them, in case the person you're sending them to decides to violate your trust - hardly
Re: People will go (Score:2, Insightful)
Congratulations, you're an idiot. I didn't say education is leftist indoctrination. I identified two elements that have been injected into what we call education
You're a living, breathing example of reality having a liberal bias. Despite turning out world class capitalist entrepreneurs in eye watering numbers, western education at all levels is infiltrated by shady leftists...
When your definition of leftist is "not nationalist with religious overtones", then reality is leftist. This is why, and this is not a guess, _I KNOW_ you see "leftists" everywhere. Not only in education, but corporate board rooms, HR departments, professional sports, sports, running, reading
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"not nationalist with religious overtones"
Leaving aside religion and faith for the moment at least Nationalism has nothing to do with reality or no-reality.
Its simply or philosophy and policy; a choice about where ones alliances lay. The fact that you can't even imagine a realistic person could see value in a nationalistic approach, shows us reality. It shows you are radically indoctrinated lefty.
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In this thread, I've now seen three distinct approaches to combat the very specific points that Trump wants to address in education reform, and contributed to the indictment the democrats suffered in this last election. The first approach was name calling [slashdot.org]. A very predictable, lazy approach to argument. Was not disappointed. After the name calling, and within that same post, was an attempt to defend the validity of the leftist positions, and demonize their rejection as some sort of hypocrisy. False equivalence, you might call this one. The third was questioning whether the problems even exist [slashdot.org]. Your approach was a hybrid of the three, but boils down to little more than, "yer stoopid", "yor afraid of the made-up leftist boogeyman". Sure, you tried to church it up with an incoherent diatribe about sports and church and outer space... I think I yawned twice before I finished reading that sentence. You dragged in an association with fluoride water conspiracy theory to reduce credence, predictably. And then came your denouement with... haha.. name calling. Delicious.
I called you an idiot because you are an idiot. You are convoluting books for high school kids and saying leftists are infiltrating schools and indoctrinating 1st graders and teaching them how to give blowjobs. Funny how said book, Gender Queer I believe, was never in elementary schools so your argument is an emotional appeal to morons like yourself. I personally think that kids who are in the sexually active age range, which is typically high school, should be allowed to be curious and have material availa
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The only willful dishonesty is coming from you and your blatant lies in order to push your bigoted agenda.
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Is that what you're talking about?
Re: People will go (Score:2)
I get the reticence to stay BUT (Score:5, Informative)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world... [bbc.com] - Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets
https://www.chemistryworld.com... [chemistryworld.com] - Theft of universities’ secrets fuels US crackdown on Chinese talent programmes
https://foreignaffairs.house.g... [house.gov] - Theft of American intellectual property (IP) is a principal irritant in the U.S.-China trade relationship. China leverages its entire legal and regulatory system to coerce technology transfer or steal IP.
https://www.fbi.gov/news/testi... [fbi.gov] - Securing the U.S. Research Enterprise from China's Talent Recruitment Plans While mere participation in a talent plan is not illegal, investigations by the FBI and our partner agencies have revealed that participants are often incentivized to transfer to China the research they conduct in the United States, as well as other proprietary information to which they can gain access, and remain a significant threat to the United States.
https://cset.georgetown.edu/ar... [georgetown.edu] - Engineer Who Fled Charges of Stealing Chip Technology in US Now Thrives in China
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr... [justice.gov] - Chinese National Sentenced for Stealing Trade Secrets Worth $1 Billion
And this is a cursory google search plus a few things I already had in my small American brain. It's blatant, usually illegal, and has been spreading my entire life.
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The problem is that it's resulted in many unwarranted and unfounded accusations made. Careers have been upended because of the unfounded claims towards Chinese nationals.
America likes to gloat about how we're better than everyone else and that we have all this due process and equal justice for all but this has shown it to be a farce.
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True, but sadly unavoidable.
If China was not such an aggressive and antagonistic country that is in active opposition to the US and our interests....this would not happen.
Any Chinese national is suspect....I mean, it makes no sense to eyeball Swedish students as those that are stealing and feeding information back to the Chinese, does it
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Why not? Chinese nationals studying in the US leave their family in China. This is the leverage the Chinese government has on those people in the US to conform.
That's why you'll find people promoting pro-Beijing ideals all the time - because part of the whole reason they're allowed into the US is because the Chinese government requires them to. Show them anything that might be the result of freedom and they get visibly agitated because they know that can put their family in danger.
Fun Story (Score:5, Insightful)
I worked for a company that built electronic gadgets for a few years. A team of engineers flew over to China to tour a few contract manufacturers to build one of the gadgets. When touring a state-run manufacturer, one of my co-workers ran back to the conference room to grab his phone, and caught two employees of the contract house disassembling and taking pictures of the prototype gadget innards. The workers apologized profusely, and my co-worker grabbed his boss and they left immediately.
The dumbest part is that the gadget used a completely custom chipset that the contract house wouldn't be able to clone, if that's what they were after.
Re:I get the reticence to stay BUT (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, they have trouble understanding why Westerners don't put their country first.
My work took me to the local PLAF (Peoples Liberation Air Firce) base a lot and I had a lot of meetings with one of the generals there (Don't be too impressed, they made a singer a General). He wanted to understand why the US would let Chinese people into research facilities in the first place. He made the point that, "They are Chinese, you have to know they are spies."
I tried to explain America's laws about racial discrimination. He didn't buy it at all. He felt that there had to be some underhanded strategy about it that he just didn't understand. It is a different way of thinking.
Mod this up! (Score:2)
Thank you for a fascinating - if somewhat scary - comment!
Re:I get the reticence to stay BUT (Score:5, Interesting)
I was helping a Chinese industrial engineering prof who had a contract with a Chinese University a few years back. We were trying to connect to the University's VPN though the great firewall of China to get the data for him to run through his code. Nothing worked. He got on the phone with their tech support and translated for me while I worked on my side.
In the end, they gave up and asked him to just send the source code so they could run it on the far end. He gave them an emphatic no. Afterwards he was laughing about it. He said, "They must think I'm stupid. I'm from there. I know what it's like. Handing them my code guarantees all of China has it."
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It's a big gap, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
From the perspective of a non-USian, it seems that the US is drifting toward totalitarianism. This makes it, in some respects, a little more like Communist China. If the trend continues - and perhaps if Xi Jinping dies and is replaced by somebody more moderate - how long will it be before even non-Chinese academics and researchers are leaving the States for greener pastures in China?
It's a scary thought, but stranger things have happened...
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Blessed be the fruit!
Re: It's a big gap, but... (Score:2)
Yeah, it's always too early to speak up, as far as you people are concerned.
Right up until the point when it's not... and then it's too late.
Compared to the rest of the world though? (Score:2)
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It's ok...we STILL go by the time worn, well honored descriptive term "American" when we refer to ourselves as and as most of the world still generally refers to us.
"USian" is a made up non-term.
We don't recognize it here....
Hope this help.
Re:It's a big gap, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
It is actually a good canary in the cola mine. Once foreign researchers leave the US in increasing numbers and the number of new arrivals drops alongside (outside from a forced drop by restricting certain nations), it is probably an indication that greener pastures exist elsewhere even if (as is likely) the pay is less. This will be especially true if the nationalities leaving are not the target of ethnic/racial undertones and policies.
You probably just need to watch the pool of applicants for STEM professorships. If those turn suddenly more sharply white American, it's probably time to leave yourself.
Re:It's a big gap, but... (Score:5, Informative)
This guy was fully tenured professor at Harvard. But you see he is also Mexican and saw the writing on the wall early on (because he's a really smart dude).
So when he had the opportunity to move to Toronto he jumped on it.
https://www.matter.toronto.edu... [toronto.edu]
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At least in China, where everyone is monitored heavily by the government, they will be at home and they know what to expect. Mostly if you don't talk nasty about the government you're safe. In the USA, Chinese nationals are also monitored and controlled by Chinese security services, as well as the US alphabet agencies. If you are pressured into espionage by China, you can go to jail forever in the US. If you just take your brain to China, they're happy to have you contributing to their progress rather than
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National comparisons (Score:2, Insightful)
I wouldn't move to the US given a choice, but if it was a choice between China and the US, it's the US I'd pack for, zero question.
The kind of people who choose China are probably the ones you were justified in keeping an eye on.
Re:National comparisons (Score:5, Informative)
Most of these people don't choose PRC. They're forced into returning because CCP holds their remaining family back in PRC as effective hostages. There's a reason why when Chinese elites can get their money out of PRC, they do it, bring entire family along and never look back. One of the greatest competitions of last 30 years has been Chinese elites trying to get their money and families out of China into the West, and CCP trying to squash methods these people use to do that one by one.
It's likely that one of the reasons for CCP's Hong Kong judicial takeover that fundamentally neutered it as an economic powerhouse is that it was one of the few remaining pathways to get yourself, your money and your family out of PRC and the amount of money and people flowing out was starting to become intolerable for CCP.
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It opens different methodologies at addressing the problem. For example, trying to open new venues to get people's families and money out of PRC.
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If you can get hostages out, you'll have some of the most loyal citizens you can possibly have. After all, you saved their family.
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I wouldn't move to the US given a choice, but if it was a choice between China and the US, it's the US I'd pack for, zero question.
The kind of people who choose China are probably the ones you were justified in keeping an eye on.
I agree. But if the current US trends continue, then in twenty years - maybe even ten - I think the choice may be less clear-cut. Especially if Xi shuffles off in the meantime and is replaced by somebody more moderate.
Hell, if our current Canadian trends continue - well, I still wouldn't choose China. But UK, the Nordic countries, and Down Under are looking better all the time. I quite liked Sweden...
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Have Australia and the UK stopped shifting right?
I'm old enough I can just sit it out here and be fine for the rest of my life. It's the youth who should be worried about where old sociopaths with money are pushing things.
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You keep talking about this....I have to ask, just WTF do you think is going to happen that will in any way impede your life, way of life in the near future?
What exactly do you think you're going to be deprived of? What exact "rights" or opportunities do you perceive to be disappearing?
Please, be specific and maybe give
Re: National comparisons (Score:2)
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And just what part(s) of democracy are we supposed to be losing?
What freedoms? What basic functionality and foundational freedoms and way of governance of the US is to be lost?
I don't see/forsee any of that happening.....
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Ah yes. Trudeau is clearly planning to put his boxing gloves on again, punch out Mary Simon and declare himself dictator for life.
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Governor.
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When they become less authoritarian and allow opposing viewpoints, the rebellions gain strength fast and the dictators tend to get shuffled off the death. They're all aware of this.
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Having a good job tends to lessen the issue of being under a totalitarian government.
Myself, if I could move to anywhere in the world. I think I'd aim for a country that isn't poised to enter into a massive war. Although a US-China or US-Russia conflict is likely to impact just about every corner of the map.
Oh well it is trading trump ... (Score:2)
... for the ccp, what's the difference?
Wait (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously? He may be the poster boy for this.
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Chinese can also freely read published science papers on arxiv and learn from that. Is that a problem? This is how science works. It's a worldwide effort and everyone benefits from it.
If US would prefer to weaponize it and restrict it to their selected circle of allies, its science is guaranteed to become much weaker than it is now.
China in is one sixth of the world population, there is no shortage of individual ingenuity. Either you let them contribute there (they already have good universities), or bring
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Chinese can also freely read published science papers on arxiv and learn from that. Is that a problem? This is how science works.
Reading journals is not how you create the leading edge, and especially not how you industrialize/commercialize that leading edge. You need to be actively involved on a daily basis in the creation of that technology-from-science. Or at least adjacent to it (talking to the principals). The scientists in the labs are the ones who first are able to exploit the science, taking it into the outside world. The lifecycle for critical explotation/adoption is months or years ahead of what outsiders are getting by jus
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math is not technology (Score:3)
Mathematics does not for 99.999% of the work have anything to do with advanced technology. Well, except for writing papers using TeX.
To the extent that mathematics is openly published, preferably in English, the US should not be too concerned about Chinese mathematicians leaving, other than the effect on US mathematics students.
For scientists and engineers, it's a whole 'nother matter.
"a loss of first-hand knowledge of advanced tech" (Score:2)
Hmm, ie they won't be able to transfer that high tech USA->China. And this is bad because?
SO ... (Score:2)
Unintended consequences of xenophobia (Score:2)
I find it interesting that every time xenophobia pops up, nothing ends well for the xenophobes. History rhymes.
Re:Oh no! ...Anyway. (Score:5, Interesting)
I presume you are not familiar with Calabi-Yau spaces used for physics. Yau is a world leading mathematician. Losing mathematicians, either through going back to China or because Americans are too stupid to support mathematics, is not a good strategy for U.S. science to succeed.
Yes and no (Score:2)
I honestly and frankly do not care which country gets to book the revenue any
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Kicking out all the Chinese mathematicians would force American companies to start funding higher education again.
We will import them from Europe, no big deal. They get better treatment than the rest of us if we hire them in for something we actually need, plenty will accept.
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Also those constituting the Russian brain drain need somewhere to settle down, similar to how the U.S. got prominent physicists in the late 1930s.
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Better Examples (Score:5, Interesting)
I presume you are not familiar with Calabi-Yau spaces used for physics.
This is not the best example to give to support a very valid point. These manifolds are, as far as I know, only used by string theory so while they are very interesting mathematically their relevance to physics is extremely hypothetical so far and certainly not mainstream unless there is an application of them I'm not aware of.
Far better examples would be T D Lee [wikipedia.org] who won a Nobel Prize for his work on parity in weak interactions. C S Wu [wikipedia.org] would be another example in the same area - she discovered parity violation in weak interactions which won Lee his Nobel for confirming his theory. Then there is Sam Ting [wikipedia.org] who was born in the US but to Chinese immigrants, and who won the Nobel Prize for discovering the J/Psi meson that could only be explained by a new, charm quark, and whose discovery gave birth to the Standard Model.
Chinese US immigrants and their off-spring have made massive contributions to physics. However, as a non-american who cares more about the discovery being made rather than which country gets credit for it, my biggest concern is whether, given the environment in China, these individuals would have made the same massive contributions there. The more restrictive and authoritarian the regime the harder it is to pursue open-ended, curiosity driven research. It would be a terrible loss for the world if this shift resulted in those rare individuals capable of making the next leaps in understanding were unable to do so because of politics.
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"T D Lee [wikipedia.org] who won a Nobel Prize for his work on parity in weak interactions."
Americans don't want weak interactions, they want strong interactions, thats why they voted for Trump.
Problems with Strong Interactions (Score:2)
Re: Oh no! ...Anyway. (Score:5, Insightful)
An example of being in a post-satire world. It tough to perform an exaggerated characterization of a stupid person when people that stupid really exist.
Re: Oh no! ...Anyway. (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, I wish I had moderation points today. Sadly you've hit the nail right on the head. Back around 2016 we entered what I call "The Fiction / Reality Inversion," and I've had a tough time reading fiction ever since. If you had tried to sell the last decade as a plot to a story of movie more than ten years ago they would have scoffed at it as silly and impossible. Today it's where we live.
The rise of anti-intellectualism in the US is helping to throw away the nation's future. Wealth-hoarding is helping with that, too. (Pure science is practically never profitable in the short run, but almost always in the long term.)
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the rise in anti-intellectualism perfects corresponds to the increase in academic fraud, junk and vanity science, not to mention the bureaucratic and classist corruption of our educational institutions
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not to even mention elitist
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Or at least with the increase in reports of such in media owned by the wealthy elite
Re: Oh no! ...Anyway. (Score:5, Insightful)
Boy, I wish I had moderation points today. Sadly you've hit the nail right on the head. Back around 2016 we entered what I call "The Fiction / Reality Inversion," and I've had a tough time reading fiction ever since. If you had tried to sell the last decade as a plot to a story of movie more than ten years ago they would have scoffed at it as silly and impossible. Today it's where we live.
The rise of anti-intellectualism in the US is helping to throw away the nation's future. Wealth-hoarding is helping with that, too. (Pure science is practically never profitable in the short run, but almost always in the long term.)
Tell us about how Chinese students and faculty are not involved in any espionage. They have been for decades. Especially the students, but the faculty has relatives in China. Fake news perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/c... [nbcnews.com]
https://www.foxnews.com/us/chi... [foxnews.com]
There are a lot more cases, although how much yuan are you willing to gamble. You don't think that the government pays in total for their room, board, and education and expects nothing in return do you?
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Spying happens regardless. And it goes both ways [wikipedia.org]. They stole our jet design, we stole their aircraft carrier design. I think this means we're winning (or does that make us the bad guys?). In any case, if the easiest route into the US is with a student or research visa, then that's how spies will get in. That does not mean ending visa programs will end their spying, or even reduce it noticeably. They'll simply come in some other way.
However, the vast majority of immigrants are simply here to study and work.
Re: Oh no! ...Anyway. (Score:4, Insightful)
We find Israeli and Russia spies from time to time embedded in our government agencies. But I don't think we should chase down everyone based on nationality. We need to be a little more discriminating than that. Besides, simply going on a person's nationality would have never caught Jonathan Pollard (a US citizen) when he was spying for Israel.
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That's exactly what is happening. China is hostile toward the United States. A few years ago they were found to have established a police station and attempting to enforce CCP laws against people in the United States. They currently have an active infiltration of our telecommunications network and we have no ETA on complete removal.
If we are talking about actual Chinese Americans whose great grandparents slaved to build those first railroads then I'm as outraged as anyone else but if we are talking about Ch
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Found the moron who voted for Trump, against science, and believes vaccines are bad....and thinks other countries will pay for tariffs.
Re: Oh no! ...Anyway. (Score:2)
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Just tell this to Germany during the second world war, who had a massive brain drain, due to an anti-science agenda.
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Nothing but sh1tposts below :(
The comment is a copy-and-paste of the subject line - it must be Joe Dragon posting AC!
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Not true. I changed my article sort order.
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