California's Wildfires Still Burn. Prison Inmates Join the Fight (npr.org) 71
As an ecological disaster devastated two coastal California cities, more than 7,500 firefighters pushed back against the wildfires. 900 of them are inmates, reports NPR. That's about 12%:
California is one of more than a dozen states that operates conservation camps, commonly known as fire camps, for incarcerated people to train to fight fires and respond to other disasters... There are now 35 such camps in California, all of which are minimum-security facilities... When they are not fighting fires, they also respond to floods and other disasters and emergencies. Otherwise, the crews do community service work in areas close to their camp, according to the state corrections department...
A 2018 Time investigation found that incarcerated firefighters are at a higher risk for serious injuries. They also are more than four times as likely to get cuts, bruises or broken bones compared to professional firefighters working the same fires, the report found. They were also more than eight times as likely to face injuries after inhaling smoke, ash and other debris compared with other firefighters, the report said.
"Two of the camps are for incarcerated women," reports the BBC. One of them — since released — remembers that "It felt like you were doing something that mattered instead of rotting away in a cell," according to the nonprofit new site CalMatters. They can also earn credits that help reduce their prison sentences, the BBC learned from the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.
Friday one local California news report shared the perspective of formerly incarcerated Californian, Matthew Hahn (from a 2021 Washington Post column). "Yes, the decision to take part is largely made under duress, given the alternative. Yes, incarcerated firefighters are paid pennies for an invaluable task. And yes, it is difficult though not impossible for participants to become firefighters after leaving prison," Hahn said. "Despite this, fire camps remain the most humane places to do time in the California prison system."
From that 2021 Washington Post column: California prisons have, on average, three times the murder rate of the country overall and twice the rate of all American prisons. These figures don't take into account the sheer number of physical assaults that occur behind prison walls. Prison feels like a dangerous place because it is. Whether it's individual assaults or large-scale riots, the potential for violence is ever-present. Fire camp represents a reprieve from that risk. Sure, people can die in fire camp as well — at least three convict-firefighters have died working to contain fires in California since 2017 — but the threat doesn't weigh on the mind like the prospect of being murdered by a fellow prisoner. I will never forget the relief I felt the day I set foot in a fire camp in Los Angeles County, like an enormous burden had been lifted...
[When his 12-man crew was called to fight the Jesusita Fire], the fire had ignited one home's deck and was slowly burning its way to the structure. We cut the deck off the house, saving the home. I often fantasize about the owners returning to see it still standing, unaware and probably unconcerned that an incarcerated fire crew had saved it. There was satisfaction in knowing that our work was as valuable as that of any other firefighter working the blaze and that the gratitude expressed toward first responders included us.
There are other reasons for prisoners to choose fire camp if given the opportunity. They are often located in secluded natural settings, giving inmates the chance to live in an environment that doesn't remotely resemble a prison. There are no walls, and sometimes there aren't even fences. Gun towers are conspicuously absent, and the guards aren't even armed.... [C]onsider the guy pushing a broom in his cell block making the equivalent of one Top Ramen noodle packet per day, just so he can have the privilege of making a collect call to his mother. Or think of the man scrubbing the streaks out of the guards' toilets, making seven cents an hour, half of which goes to pay court fees and restitution, just so he can have those couple of hours outside his cage for the day...
So, while we may have faced the heat of a wildfire for a few bucks a day, and we may have saved a few homes and been happy doing so, understand that we were rational actors. We wanted to be there, where some of our dignity was returned to us.
A 2018 Time investigation found that incarcerated firefighters are at a higher risk for serious injuries. They also are more than four times as likely to get cuts, bruises or broken bones compared to professional firefighters working the same fires, the report found. They were also more than eight times as likely to face injuries after inhaling smoke, ash and other debris compared with other firefighters, the report said.
"Two of the camps are for incarcerated women," reports the BBC. One of them — since released — remembers that "It felt like you were doing something that mattered instead of rotting away in a cell," according to the nonprofit new site CalMatters. They can also earn credits that help reduce their prison sentences, the BBC learned from the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.
Friday one local California news report shared the perspective of formerly incarcerated Californian, Matthew Hahn (from a 2021 Washington Post column). "Yes, the decision to take part is largely made under duress, given the alternative. Yes, incarcerated firefighters are paid pennies for an invaluable task. And yes, it is difficult though not impossible for participants to become firefighters after leaving prison," Hahn said. "Despite this, fire camps remain the most humane places to do time in the California prison system."
From that 2021 Washington Post column: California prisons have, on average, three times the murder rate of the country overall and twice the rate of all American prisons. These figures don't take into account the sheer number of physical assaults that occur behind prison walls. Prison feels like a dangerous place because it is. Whether it's individual assaults or large-scale riots, the potential for violence is ever-present. Fire camp represents a reprieve from that risk. Sure, people can die in fire camp as well — at least three convict-firefighters have died working to contain fires in California since 2017 — but the threat doesn't weigh on the mind like the prospect of being murdered by a fellow prisoner. I will never forget the relief I felt the day I set foot in a fire camp in Los Angeles County, like an enormous burden had been lifted...
[When his 12-man crew was called to fight the Jesusita Fire], the fire had ignited one home's deck and was slowly burning its way to the structure. We cut the deck off the house, saving the home. I often fantasize about the owners returning to see it still standing, unaware and probably unconcerned that an incarcerated fire crew had saved it. There was satisfaction in knowing that our work was as valuable as that of any other firefighter working the blaze and that the gratitude expressed toward first responders included us.
There are other reasons for prisoners to choose fire camp if given the opportunity. They are often located in secluded natural settings, giving inmates the chance to live in an environment that doesn't remotely resemble a prison. There are no walls, and sometimes there aren't even fences. Gun towers are conspicuously absent, and the guards aren't even armed.... [C]onsider the guy pushing a broom in his cell block making the equivalent of one Top Ramen noodle packet per day, just so he can have the privilege of making a collect call to his mother. Or think of the man scrubbing the streaks out of the guards' toilets, making seven cents an hour, half of which goes to pay court fees and restitution, just so he can have those couple of hours outside his cage for the day...
So, while we may have faced the heat of a wildfire for a few bucks a day, and we may have saved a few homes and been happy doing so, understand that we were rational actors. We wanted to be there, where some of our dignity was returned to us.
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First stage? Dude Alabama is already forcing prisoners to work it fast food restaurants. Too dangerous to release but not too dangerous to serve hamberders.
OMG! They're probably touching processed food. Does the International Criminal Court know about this?
Re:... uh ... (Score:5, Insightful)
normalize some form of slavery.
The inmates are volunteers and are paid.
Normal folks will probably think that sounds like paranoid, left-wing cry baby hand-wringing
Indeed. That's what you sound like to me.
we do live in a world where billionaires exist
What do "billionaires" have to do with this? Are Musk and Bezos secretly investing in firefighting supply companies?
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What do "billionaires" have to do with this? Are Musk and Bezos secretly investing in firefighting supply companies?
I can imagine they would, but just to protect their stuff. As for Musk, he seems more interested in setting things ablaze and watching them burn -- euphemistically speaking anyway, although... things from SpaceX and (to a lessor extent) Tesla do seem to catch on fire. :-)
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What do "billionaires" have to do with this? Are Musk and Bezos secretly investing in firefighting supply companies?
I can imagine they would, but just to protect their stuff. As for Musk, he seems more interested in setting things ablaze and watching them burn -- euphemistically speaking anyway, although... things from SpaceX and (to a lessor extent) Tesla do seem to catch on fire. :-)
I mean, if SpaceX didn't burn anything, they wouldn't be much of a rocket company, now would they?
Billionaires come into this (Score:1, Insightful)
Basically our fundamental institutions like firefighting or breaking down from a lack of funding. In a country is rich as America that lack of funding doesn't happen in a vacuum it takes rich and powerful people to cause it. That's where billionaire
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The inmates are volunteers and are paid.
That's very close to the "we're doing the Africans a favour by enslaving them" line of thinking. Yes they are volunteers. But don't for a moment pretend that this is a choice for them. There's plenty of stories you can read from people on the scheme talking about why they do it, in some cases simply to be able to eat better food than what they get, in other cases because fighting a fire is safer for them then staying in prison. This has an impact on their parole when they are evaluated as well.
As for the "a
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"On the other, this reads like the first stage of a PR campaign to normalize some form of slavery."
In what way? What experience do you have with stages of PR campaigns? And why do you think a PR campaign would even be used?
"Normal folks will probably think that sounds like paranoid, left-wing cry baby hand-wringing..."
It sure does. For at least because these people are incarcerated, therefore anything done to give then work to do or teach them job skills could be argued as "slavery". Picking up trash al
Re:... uh ... (Score:4, Interesting)
But there was this notorious fairly recent case where a judge was handing longer sentences to juveniles who would serve time at a for-profit prison in return for kickbacks from the prison owners. I don't think prison labor was involved in this case but anybody can see how the profit motive corruptly influencing the justice system in one way or another is a near-constant threat that must be guarded against.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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When I was a kid, if I got up to something I shouldn't, my parents preferred to make me apologize and then spend time practicing doing the right thing instead of just grounding me, whenever it was plausible. That part makes sense to me, if you bear in mind that my parents probably cared more about me than most people do about prisoners.
I'm not well informed enough to know how much corruption there is here, but at a gut level the whole "these prisoners are sooo grateful to risk their lives for pennies on the
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They're paid a few dollars a day (Score:1)
And his other people on this thread have pointed out They are under duress to report for fire duty. If they don't they are punished.
Fun fact there are prisoners doing IT work and writing code right now. Naturally they are doing this for a few dollars a day. If you're here on slashdot and you think it's hard to compete with the Indians try to imagi
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You miss the point. By reducing the number of firefighters that have to be hired at normal pay, they are saving the government a lot of money through their work. I don't suppose it adds up to $130K each (or if their is any such accounting), but it is valuable work.
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The word you're looking for is classism. This is an example of the upper classes using the legal industry to fuel the indentured servitude of the poor and the dysfunctional. The upper classes are just using the tools at hand in order to ensure our compliance. This is the way of things in a corrupt economy based on a fiat currency and wage slavery.
Re: ... uh ... (Score:2)
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What's the matter, does free speech bother you? By the way, labelling people as liberals says a lot about you. Left versus right is just divide and conquer while all our political parties are owned and controlled by upper class influences based on campaign contributions and political lobbying. Resorting to profanities and slurs too, typical.
Ignoring how classist the legal system is, do you really think coercion is an aspect of volunteerism?
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It's already normal. This is just one of those inspirational stories that come out of the US, like the kid with cancer using their Make A Wish to get food for homeless people, or a bunch of people donating to a Go Fund Me for a guy who fell on his head without adequate insurance. To be fair, getting out of prison to be fire fodder is probably better than getting out to be HIMARS fodder.
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Prison is punishment.
Prison is a horrible place to be because it is a concentration of horrible people.
Work camps are a privilege for low-risk inmates, earned by demonstrated good behavior -less horrible people around you makes it a lot less horrible of an experience.
It is still punishment.
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This has been going on for decades, and it gets reported every fire season. The inmates are paid, not a lot but it's not for free. They're not forced to fight figures, it is voluntary. Volunteering will earn prison credits and possibly reduce sentence time. Many of the volunteers were glad to do this.
Slaves. (Score:1, Troll)
Alabama has them working McDonald's. You've got people who are too dangerous to let out of prison but not too dangerous to serve you hamburgers.
Everybody kind of wondered what we were going to do when all the illegal immigrants were kicked out and the answer is, somewhat predictably, slaves.
It's like those science fiction stories where we develop perfect organ transpla
Just how fucking stupid is rsilvergun? (Score:2)
It's like those science fiction stories where we develop perfect organ transplant surgeries before developing the ability to make organs.
Seriously? Just how much more perfect do you want them to get than they already are? Even highly risky organs like lungs do pretty well now. The ones that die within the first year of transplant do so almost entirely because lungs are very fragile organs, not because of the surgery. You're just as likely to die from having surgery to remove your genitals for a sex change.
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The point is it's basically the same as most highly invasive surgeries, including ones that are purely cosmetic.
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The point is it's basically the same as most highly invasive surgeries, including ones that are purely cosmetic.
Except for the whole thing about spending the rest of your life on anti-rejection drugs that make you more susceptible to various illnesses, cancer, etc. Invasive non-transplant surgeries don't have that ongoing risk for the rest of your life. I mean sure, it's better than dying, but avoiding it is still far preferable.
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Except for the whole thing about spending the rest of your life on anti-rejection drugs that make you more susceptible to various illnesses, cancer, etc.
That depends, for most of us it's not a big deal. In my case, the worst I had was a severe dual infection of EBV and CMV because I was over-suppressed. They're certain I got EBV from the kidney itself, but didn't test for CMV, however they think that came from it as well. It put me in the hospital for three weeks, they said I could have died from it, but it didn't feel like it, all I had was severe stomach pain for about a week, which fentanyl was able to completely alleviate. I'm going on 7.5 years post-tr
Re: Just how fucking stupid is rsilvergun? (Score:2)
Seriously? Just how much more perfect do you want them to get than they already are?
It sounds like the OP has been reading Larry Niven. In his books skin, eyes, intestines and pretty much every part of a person can be transplanted without any complications or rejection. When someone is sent to the organ banks for their third strike at false advertising only their brain is discarded.
A Gift from Earth asks some interesting questions about what happens when a society dependant on organ transplantation has effective artificial replacement organs dropped in its lap. One of his short stories fro
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The problem with your McDonalds example is that inmate is taking a properly paying job from some one else. Releasing inmates to work at McDonalds is also releasing them into the general public which then begs the question, if they're safe enough to release into public why not just put them on parol and save the tax payer a shit ton of money?
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???
I got what you were saying in your own post just fine but I felt the issue needed revisiting given the AC's response.
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It's mostly about enforcement. Someone in a halfway house is closely monitored. They leave the dorm for their job only, and maybe a few trips to the store or church on Sundays. That's it. Parole is a lot more relaxed, even if you get the ankle bracelet. You get your own parole address and can go a lot more places.
As for the job, it's arguable that employers abuse these programs for cheap labor, but at the same time we need better ways of handling incarceration in this country, and in the end it's worth
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This isn't about working, this is about fair pay. people would like their jobs, if their jobs paid well, came with benefits and pensions, not to mention profit sharing. how come the already rich get these things but ordinary hard working people do not?
We cannot have capitalism without capital. When 85% of all capital is being hoarded by 15% of the people, then that leaves 15% of all capital from 85% of the rest of us to manage with. It's not enough capital, that's why most people are so poor, a lack of capi
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It's pretty clear to anybody familiar with your posting history;
Anyone familiar with your posting history knows enough to ignore you. Apparently you believe all work is wage slavery, so join the IWW. But while all work can be considered slavery, forcing people to do dangerous work for a pittance and against their will is pretty close to the real thing as everyone understands it. We justify it only as part of the punishment for their crimes. But the question is whether a death penalty or permanent disabil
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The second you start calling paid volunteers slaves you've lost the debate on whether this is a good thing or not as obviously they aren't slaves.
There are possible problematic angles to this but "slavery" is not one of them.
Re:Slaves. (Score:5, Interesting)
CA inmate firefighters are paid between $2.xx and $4.xx per day . If they are on an active fire, they will earn $1/hr (and are generally on 24hr shifts). CA minimum wage is quite a bit above that. Also, if you are "eligible" for fire camp and refuse to go, you will receive a write-up, which will affect your security placement and your credit earning rate. This is what the quoted former inmate means when he mentions "duress." It may not be slavery, but it is not in any way equivalent to a "paid volunteer" situation (volunteers generally aren't 'paid' in any context).
Source: doing the books at a fire camp; being one of the more computer literate of the population. [It is indeed preferrable to prison, for most, and does feel better than rotting in a cell.]
-bZj
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Please cite a source on that write-up for not volunteering. I haven't seen that from any sources I've read.
Otherwise, your post is exactly as I said at the end, "There are possible problematic angles to this but "slavery" is not one of them."
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Those inmate firefighters are getting time off for good behavior and money. Shortening your sentence is worth a lot of money just for the lost future earnings it prevents. That ignores all the additional benefits of getting out of prison earlier and being in a minimum security setting for the duration of incarceration.
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I call bullshit on that! Back when the US still had a draft, not everybody who served was drafted. Lots of us volunteered. And, both volunteers and draftees were paid, at the exact same rate.
The second we paid them $5.80 a day (Score:1)
You strike me as the kind of person who argues that antebellum slavery was a okay because they learned skills. I wonder if that's as far as you go though or if you aren't one of the type that say stuff like it's okay because another tribe sold us the slaves or b
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You lost the argument. The fact that they're prisoners and there are multiple well documented examples of threats of punishment and solitary confinement for people who don't "volunteer" is just a cherry on the shit cake you use to excuse slavery.
You're the second person to make this claim but I've seen nothing about this relative to California's inmate fire fighters. As I already asked someone else, please cite a source (a source specific in California inmate firefighters mind you). I'm asking because I don't believe you.
You strike me as the kind of person who argues that antebellum slavery was a okay because they learned skills. I wonder if that's as far as you go though or if you aren't one of the type that say stuff like it's okay because another tribe sold us the slaves or because that's just how things were back then or whatever other excuse you have for slavery.
Notice i mention at the end of my post that there seem to me to be problematic angles but slavery isnt one of them. I'm not trying to say everything that happens with inmate labor is good but calling paid volunteers "slaves" is sti
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Slaves don't get paid.
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Au contraire.
https://www.historyextra.com/p... [historyextra.com].
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Do you ever get the feeling maybe you're splitting some hairs into ever smaller pieces in order to justify something your society is doing? If the slave owners after the US civil war had "freed" their slaves by paying them a penny a year (which they were promptly charged for food and shelter) do you think that would have been satisfactory?
Community service as reparations for crimes isn't itself a reprehensible idea, provided it's done properly. Inmates working for no or ridiculously low pay to enrich a priv
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Is it slave labor when they work in the prison kitchen? Doing laundry? Grounds maintenance? Of course not, and neither is working on a fire team. Also, if I was in prison I'd jump at the chance to work on a fire team. Wouldn't think twice. I'd kinda like to now, even for free as a volunteer. But I've got better options available to me since I don't do things that can get me thrown into prison.
Some TFA detail is missing (Score:5, Informative)
I saw this in TFA:
A 2018 Time investigation found that incarcerated firefighters are at a higher risk for serious injuries. They also are more than four times as likely to get cuts, bruises or broken bones compared to professional firefighters working the same fires, the report found. They were also more than eight times as likely to face injuries after inhaling smoke, ash and other debris compared with other firefighters, the report said.
When I saw this, I thought the incarcerated firefighters were poorly trained, poorly conditioned, poorly equipped, or poorly disciplined. Perhaps a combination of these. But the paragraph below this one in the linked article clarifies things:
Civilian firefighters had their own predominant risks, the data obtained by TIME shows. They were about nine times as likely to experience burns and about twice as likely to experience heat-related illnesses like dehydration. That is not surprising, given that they are the ones extinguishing the flames, while inmates reduce the likelihood that the fires will spread by clearing the thick brush nearby.
So, it appears inmates are more likely to experience certain kinds of injuries because of the division of responsibility on the field. And so are civilian firefighters.
Civilian or inmate, be safe out there folks, and all good wishes for success. This is a tragedy and you're helping to relieve it.
Still safer (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: Easy Fix (Score:2)
Newsome accepted firefighters from Mexico, but Bass refused assistance from NYC.
I'm not sure what the initial reason for the refusal of FDNY assistance was, but subsequently a spokesman said some insane reason like 'they don't know how to fight wildfires!' Except, of course, you could deploy FDNY resources in the burning communities allowing more CA firefighters to go fight the wildfire in the hills...
Looting (Score:3)
I have friends who have been. (Score:2)
I have friends who have done time in the Conservation Camps. I also have had friends who have worked for CalFire. The difference in conditions between the two is pay, and alcohol. Both jobs are dangerous. Both jobs involve sitting at a remote location preparing and waiting to run in to an active fire. The friends who were in the conservation camps ALL say they are glad the spent time there.
Maybe, just maybe... (Score:3)
2018 Time investigation found that incarcerated firefighters are at a higher risk for serious injuries. They also are more than four times as likely to get cuts, bruises or broken bones compared to professional firefighters working the same fires, the report found. They were also more than eight times as likely to face injuries after inhaling smoke, ash and other debris compared with other firefighters, the report said.
Unless the incarcerated workers have the exact same training and years of experience as the professional (career) firefighters, then they will obviously get injured more frequently than the career professionals.
It's a dangerous job, and the lesser-experienced workers will certainly be more likely to get injured working the fire lines.
Bottom line, it's a good program - the convicts get to learn a skill, benefit the community, and hopefully avoid recidivism. The real question is how many former convict firefighters enter the professional firefighter workforce after they've served their time?
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The real question is how many former convict firefighters enter the professional firefighter workforce after they've served their time?
From TFS:
"And yes, it is difficult though not impossible for participants to become firefighters after leaving prison," Hahn said.
Evidently, not many. But, it appears that it's something to do that is more rewarding than sitting in their cells, rotting. And although they are at greater risk of injury on the fire line than professionals, it might still be less than the risk of getting shivved in the prison cafeteria line.
Kind of a weird story, or weird summary at least (Score:2)
Having read TFS, I'm not clear on exactly what point the author thinks they're making (or are attempting to make).
Slaves. Say what you mean. (Score:2)
They're our society's slaves. At least part of the underclass.
Or what would you call someone who cannot leave and you point them at a blazing fire? Why would they choose to help you?