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An Experience of "Kira489" 331

Mitch Haile has submitted a feature that I need to put a disclaimer in front of. This is quite different then usual Slashdot fare, but I think its worth sharing. It contains somewhat graphic (but real) stuff, so if you're squeemish, just keep scrolling past the link. It discusses meeting people over the internet, and a frightening story that sounds like the bad stereotypes, but happens to be true. Many of us have met people over the net, and this is food for thought.
The following was written by Slashdot reader Mitch Haile

An Expierence of "Kira489"

Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder. The psychological repercussions are severe to the victim, causing even years of trauma. It's frighteningly common--and it's often associated with the Internet. We've all heard the story in which a fourteen year old girl living in Maine is given a plane ticket to Arizona by a forty-seven year old man claiming to be a eighteen year old boy in an America On-line chatroom. She accepts--heck, she's in love and her parents are a pain--and flies to meet him. Of course, upon seeing him, she knows he's not the eighteen year old stud she'd fantasized about, but being alone and lost in a foreign city leaves her with no obvious choice but to leave the airport with him. Of course, he takes her to the local motor lodge and rapes her.

Unfortunately, the media loves these stories, the more horrible the better. It's the media that establishes ideas in people, but I did not realize strength of the current attitudes about Internet users until a friend of mine was raped by someone from the Big Bad Internet. After the rape, which had taken place in her house, she went to her local hospital, where she was tested for sexually transmitted diseases, and her physical wounds treated. The rapist remained in her house, and she was advised to call the police. The police escorted the rapist off her property, and persuaded her to press charges, claiming she had a rock solid case. To this, she consented.

Apparently, the detective in charge on her case didn't agree that the case was closed when he learned she had met the rapist on the Internet. "They [Internet users] are nothing but relentless sex addicts," he told her. "Furthermore, every conversation on the Internet is logged. I can get access to these logs, and if I find that you ever hugged him on the Internet, I will show that this is not a matter of rape, but consentual sex." He proceeded to ask if she had met others from the Internet, which she had. Upon finding out that she had met me on numerous occasions, and even had sex with me, the "slueth" felt satisfied he had proved his point, "No one on the Internet ever wants to do anything but have sex."

Despite the fact that my friend was injured to the point that, according the documented hospital report, she had bruises and tears in her vagina, and the fact that people willingly having sex usually do not injure one another, the police threatened my friend with the possibility of putting her in jail if she was lying!

It is ludicrous to believe that all people associated with the Internet are sex-crazed maniacs, or that meeting someone in real-life is recipe for disaster. I've met a great deal of people from the Internet, for both personal and professional reasons, and I've yet to be raped. Yes, like a few of my real-life friends and relationships, I even slept with a few people I met from the Internet. I even spent a week with one Internet pal snowed-in together during the blizzard that hit the midwestern United States this past January.

Was I concerned about my safety at any of these times I met someone from the Internet? No, I wasn't--no more than I would be meeting someone I didn't know very well in person for dinner and possibly spending the night together. I've never met someone from the Internet expecting sex, and while I'm sure there are many that do, I would hazard a guess that the number that do is not any higher than people who know each other in real-life would in a similar situation (e.g., sharing a hotel room in a distant town).

I once met, with the permission of her mother, a girl in high school, since I happened to be traveling through her town and had some extra hours to spare for dinner. She later mentioned that a real-life friend of hers admonished her for meeting me, claiming she hardly knows me. Well, how much do two people know each other on a first date for coffee or dinner? Interestingly, the media refuses to acknowledge this similarity.

It's important to be careful when meeting someone from the Internet--just as it's normal to be careful in any situation where you've not spent a large amount of time together in person. It's important to realize that a person's remarks and responses in a chatroom or a MUD may be contrived, no matter how fluent they seem to flow. Likewise, there are plenty of phony men and women in every community, and you're just as likely to encounter them in real-life, rapists or not. Regardless, it is certainly not in the interests of society for those who enforce the law to ridicule rape, no matter the circumstances of how the involved individuals initially came in contact with each other. Rape is rape; it's a matter far too serious for qualification.

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An Experience of "Kira489"

Comments Filter:
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I feel for the unlucky woman. I don't want to generalise and state that all police are like this, but a bit of "sensitivity training" could go a long way if systematically applied.

    It's obvious that a good deal of media moguls have really been attacking "the net" since the beginning, and the effects of the "war" have been showing up as being less tactful of real social situational "realities" than they had in the past as people experience what actually DOES happen.

    Although, and this doesn't matter in the scope of the conversation, I have never really been a big chatter, nor have I ever had sex with anybody over the 'net. Local BBSes, well, that's another story. I don't know whether a lot of people are really surprised or expect a different kind of fascination because "Internet people" have this romanticised image of "they're from another state/country/culture" that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to imagine being with if they were droll local hicks... and this is probably where some of the negative association is being perpetuated.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    My best friend was raped a couple months ago. He (the rapist) lied about wanting to lose his virginity to her, and when that didn't work... She later learned that she was not his first, and though she's coping with it (probably better than I am), he has taken something from her that she'll never get back, and has hurt her in a way that I can never forgive. And she wasn't his only victim. In fact (invitation to prove me wrong), most rapists don't stop with just one. Is castration more barbaric than the crimes it would prevent? I believe that the best prevention is to talk to girls about rape, how to avoid dangerous situations, and recognize signs of a rapist's intent. That, and extensive martial arts training. But there is only so much one can do on the defensive side.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    The cop that said that Internet users are all "sex-crazed" should get it straight. Even if porn and virtual sex is 50% of the net, that doesn't make everyone a pervert. What kind of detective is this? And to have the audacity to accuse her of lying? I know this stuff happens a lot, but its still incredibly evil. I suppose the guy is ticked off by women who claim to have been raped when it really was consensual, but i'm not sure how often that happens.

    Where are internet conversations logged? IRC, ICQ, AIM, all logged?? Hmmmm... I don't know about that. But you guys will know more than I about that. (Not a big IRC fan)

    Kind of a depressing story, but I hope Slashdot does a followup on what happens.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    Anyone can say "this is a log of the chat session" and produce a manufactured log saying anything they want. I, in fact, have an "authentic log" of the session just described:

    ---Begin chat session--

    Rapist-to-be: Hi.

    Raped-to-be: Hi.

    Rapist-to-be: So you wanna get together to make the two-backed beast?

    Raped-to-be: Well, only if you give it to me rough. I mean really rough.

    Rapist-to-be: Pick you up at 7?

    Raped-to-be: Sure.

    ---End Chat Session---

    Now what band of soap-opera-fanatic jurors are gonna be savvy enough to know that this was just made up? She needs an attorney who will argue that while logs can be manufactured and don't themselves constitute a credible defense, it's difficult to reconcile how her rapist was camped out on her sofa quaffing her Coors while she was being fed through a tube in the local body shop. Granted, DNA evidence will likely be brought into the matter, and we all know how unreliable THAT can be....

    As incapable of critical analysis as jurors tend to be in this country (a biproduct of the defunct American educational system), I have no doubts the alleged offender's defense would stand up in court. Hell, he'd probably be entitled to a $10^7 defamation settlement.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    About three years ago I went over to an ex-GF's house to watch a big game with her and to keep her company (folks out of town). I managed to surprise a burglar who had forced his way in and was in the process of raping her... (I *knew* that car was unfamilar)

    The guy got five years w/out parole (from the judicial system) and three broken ribs/lacerations/broken arm (from me tackling him and throwing him down a flight of stairs.)

    My exGF got a bunch of scars, and nightmares she'll have forever.

    Hardly fair.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Yeah, a jury of rapists would make for a great
    trial. No problem there.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Hello... read the statistics. Most rapes are committed by friends and acquaintances of the person, not by strangers. This isn't about 'didn't you know well enough not to go out with that strange man', this is about 'my best friend betrayed me, knocked me down, broke my arm and used me while I screamed and sobbed'. Get the facts.

    --- Micah

  • by Anonymous Coward
    I've worked with survivors of rape, and I have to say that the response of the cop is extremely typical. Many many women are afraid to go to the police for (a very well justified) fear of being revictimized. Most cops (and probably most men in general) will always doubt a rape survivors story. It sounds to me that in this case the cop was just searching for an excuse to discredit her, and as he was ignorant of the internet, he used that.

    I would encourage your friend (if she feels comfortable doing it) to contact a local rape crisis center (if there is one in her area), most of them have advocates that will go with her to talk to the police, to the courts, as well as just to talk to her about healing.

    --
    Only men can end rape.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I've had the same thing happen to a friend of mine. He was a sleaze, but not a rapist. One day, the girl he was seeing, who had a history of mental illness, decided that he had raped her, and started threatening to press charges. She spread it all around town, and finally the guy was forced to leave, his reputation ruined and his life being threatened. I think there are a number of incidents where such things happen - where a woman decides afterwards that the sex was not concensual, etc. Which is unfortunate, because this abuse of the system makes it more difficult for women who have actually been violently assaulted and raped to have their story heard, and it ruins a lot of people'e lives.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:04AM (#1956338)
    First Rob thanks for posting soemthing like this. Second I am posting as AC becuase if you read the rest of my comment you will understand.

    What is pointed out in this article is so true and so stereotypical. I am a male and I was accused of RAPING somebody once. Why, because her boyfriend came to knwo about it and she would rather ruin my life then ruin her relationship. Do you have any idea of the humiliation not to mention the time and the money lost because of such an accusation.

    And then that ignorant police officer making those statements. If she has been hurt and that can be proven medically, it is not consensual sex and trust me I know, since I had to go through a trial to prove my innocence.

    Does this mean that we all perverts and rapists and the dredge of society since we hang out on the "internt". Hell, if it was not for internet, I would not have a job. Will someone explain it to that ignoramoose who is running around tellign people he is there to serve and protect.

    Mitch, I can only offer my sympathies for your friend because I have an idea of what she is going through. As for the rest who have their own ideas for the "kind of' people on the internet, all I have to say is "EDUCATION".

    Sorry about the rant, but something in me just blew up. And if you made it this far, thanks for listening.
  • (It's good to see some intelligent conversation coming back here for once. I might actually start posting again. I love this nested comment stuff. Me thinks the moderator idea was a good one, Rob. This one is really Stuff that Matters.)

    Back on topic: personally, I'd like to strangle the bastard who did this. Slowly.

    Wanna know what really pisses me off, more than anything else? Sick people who do stupid unforgivable things like this, and how nice women are forced to be paranoid and afraid out of necessity. It's a sad state of affairs when a first date has to be in a public place, in broad daylight, and with a group of friends. Honestly, I think if someone ever attacked a woman in my presence, I'd kill him, or get put in the hospital trying. And if someone were to attack a girlfriend of mine, God himself wouldn't be able to help him.

    I personally know two people who have been attacked. Thankfully, the first had the good sense to run and scream bloody murder, and her attacker took off. The second one was attacked by a drunk guy who entered the store where she worked. She shattered his knee (15 years of soccer does wonders for leg strength) in 4 places, and HE'S suing HER. Amazing. I wish she'd have gotten a second blow in before security tossed the guy from the store; she says he was pulled up off the floor just as her foot would have caught him in the side of the head. It's truely sad when a woman can be attacked, and then have the attacker win any type of sympathy at all as a victim. It doesn't mattter if she invites him in. Doesn't matter if she's drunk. Doesn't matter if she's butt naked. I honestly can't believe some of the morons above this post who seem to think so. It's just beyond me.

    Personally, I'd like to see rapists and child molesters released to society, and all the police turn their backs for an hour. Jail or prision is too good for the animals that do these kinds of things.

    To the person who wrote this: I hope your friend can learn to love. Just stay by her side, and make sure she knows that you'll always be there, and let God take care of the rest.

    --

  • Por favor, moderating dude, why the did this get marked down? Come on, man. Nobody gives a shit if you've got those little moderate buttons by posts. You've got 0 right to nuke posts for no reason other than wanting to moderate SOMETHING. Get a new hobby, and put this back up where it belongs. It makes a good point, and while not an original thought, it's not worth demoting.

    --

  • by BOredAtWork ( 36 )
    Woho, it's back :-). Thanks.

    --

  • Agreed! One thing that many people don't seem to realize is that rape and fraud are risks that people have been taking in getting to know people long before the internet became an issue. Personal ads and penpal networks have always had these problems, but the media didn't make a big stink about it.

    I've got mixed feelings about the attention the media does give such cases. Hopefully it will raise awareness so people will be more careful. On the downside, you get scary attitudes developing like the Sheriff mentioned in this article, by people who don't have a grasp of the full issue.

    It is easy to conceal who you are through email or snail mail. It is foolhardy to assume that a person is safe, just because you think you know him from correspondence. But just because Kira489 was a little foolish doesn't make her at all responsible for the rape.

    I for one think rapists (this one included) should be decapitated. The lower "head" for the first offense (plus prison, of course), and the upper head for the second.


    minor nitpick: "weary" means tired, "wary" means cautious. I think you meant "wary" in your heading.
  • by Shiska ( 131 )
    Castration and then a nice shot in the back of the head, execution style. One less piece of shit on this cesspool of a planet.

    Have a nice day!
    ----------------- ------------ ---- --- - - - -
  • Castration is the removal of the testicles, but testosterone is produced in the testicles, so by removing them, you are removing supply of testosterone, which is what I imagine plays a big part in the power and control aspect of rape.
  • All "peers" means in this sense is normal, every-day citizens, not some board of judges, elected/appointed by the governor or anything.

    Sure, it'd be nice if say, this person that started the Melissa virus had a jury of computer geeks, or people that at least know what a macro is. But it won't happen.
  • Half the FOP (Fraternal Order of Police) lodges here in Maryland have websites, and private e-mail lists or bulletin boards for members. I've helped a couple of them set up their sites, and so far none of them have been sex maniacs.

    There are plenty of 'net-hip cops out there, and more of them are getting online every year, so police like the ignorant one mentioned above will gradually get rarer.

    --Robin Miller
    Cheap Computing columnist
  • There exist people for whom one could make the argument that they deserve to be murdered. Nobody ever deserves to be raped.

    Nobody ever deserves his favorite poodle to be painted green either, but it doesn't mean that painting poodles green is worse than a murder.

    But doesn't the question that original statement answer looks bogus in the first place? Why should it matter, is rapist better than a murderer or worse?

  • You dare reduce the serious and violent act of rape to the level of the silly and annoying act of painting curly-haired toy dogs an odd color?

    I merely point out the pointlessness of statements like this.

  • The statistic isn't 1 in 6 women is raped. The statistic is 1 in 6 women before college are sexually assulted. The other statistic is 1 in 3 women will be sexually assulted during their lifetime.

    Sexual assult does not necessarily mean rape. Sexual assult can be anything perceived to be aggressive done in a sexual manner. Pinching a girl's butt while she walks by can be considered sexual assult.

    Do you have any idea how hard it is to prove that someone was raped? It's basically one person's word against another and unless other parties come foward, there is no reason to believe that a woman is right and the man is wrong.

    I've heard more than my fair share of stories about women who cry rape when their boyfriends find out they've cheated on them or the man they slept with breaks their heart.

    The entire situation makes me sick.

    --
  • I've been on the Internet for almost 15 years, since the days when all the Internet was to me was an email gateway and a hacked-together list processor.

    I can truly say that the Internet as a medium has given me some of the most rewarding relationships that a person could want. It is *definitely* a major part of my life, and anyone that says I'm defect for using the Internet as a social medium can kiss my ass and go back to dishing out snake oil as far as I'm concerned.

    Which is why I feel that stories that inflame the net-rape cases really are dangerous. It only serves one purpose: to further propagate the rape meme through society.

    IRC, E-mail, Newsgroups, ICQ - all of these mediums strip away a *lot* of barriers to social interaction that would not ordinarily allow people to get to know each other. It's so obvious that it feels droll to even bring it up - the Internet is an incredibly powerful social medium. I wouldn't know 3/4's of the people I know if I had to rely on modern social mechanisms to meet people and interact with them.

    And no, I don't have sex with any of the people I've met online, but I am *very* close to a lot of them, and I would definitely consider some of my IRC friends to be among my best.

    But it goes without saying that all this technology of interaction that is the Internet (with all its formalized and well engineered protocols) simply can't replace the *SAME* degree of protocol in real life social situations.

    Yes, there *SHOULD* be a protocol for meeting someone online. Never make the first meeting alone, never put yourself in a situation where you're going to be alone with the other person in a (cause->effect) situation. You should *both* be causative in the meeting - in other words, on fair ground, with equal opportunity to break the connection if needed.

    Hmm...

    Perhaps, out of this Slashdot story, we engineers could actually *SUBMIT* a protocol? Why couldn't we get an RFC together for 'meeting online friends' and submit it?

    A protocol is a protocol, and if *WE*, the *ENGINEERS* of the Internet, don't submit it - well we can hardly complain when the MASS MEDIA come in and define those 'protocols' for us in their terms.

    Terms that are carefully calculated to create controversy, and sell ad space...
  • READ MY WHOLE POST BEFORE YOU FLAME ME. Sorry, I just reread the first line and noticed that you'll get the wrong idea if you stop reading.

    The Detective was probably correct, at least from a jury's point of view. You get 13 non-geek "peers" up there and the guy who did the rape takes a walk. Sad but true.

    Reason: the jury would believe all the TV movies they'd ever seen and have the same point of view as the detective. Call it media poisoning of our judicial system -- that's why juries are out of date; you can't expect people to make good decisions about things they don't know/don't care about/are already biased about. Hell, look at the OJ trial.

    ----

  • : It's no longer rape, it's just an inappropriate relationship. Just ask columnist Ellen Goodman.
    It's no longer force, it's preconsensual intimacy (really!).

    Do you have a url for that article?
  • A more permanent means of castration would be more effective. The form of chemical castration performed at that time required the man use drugs periodically to maintain his treatment; He stopped. IIRC.

    [fuming about effing' liberals]...
  • Posted by u4ic-fx:

    Also, i think it would be relavent to point out that this cop obviosly for whatever reason, feels he needs to intimidate the girl to ensure a conviction. From the original post it is obvious that the cop has little practical knowledge of irc/icq/webchats/ etc

    As far as nerds being abused by cops, hell, who HAVN'T the police abused?

    u4ic-fx - he who cary's the bigest stick, better watch out for the next guy
  • by gavinhall ( 33 )
    Posted by Aelfgifu:


    I don't think this has any place on Slashdot. I could make up a similarily touching and horrific story next week, and submit it. It would include the innocent victim, who was so trusting with a person she met on the internet (a friend of mine, of course) and the cops who were so mean and unfeeling.

    Yes, it happens. 1 out of every 3 women will be sexually assaulted at least once in her lifetime. But I don't think hearsay stories (since this is his friend, and he is repeating what he heard about how the cops behaved, etc.) will do any good is stopping assaults.

    Giving women the sense to be wary and cautious (whether in a chat room or bar room) and stand up for their right to be heard will help. How about giving girls enough self-esteem to where they aren't looking for love and acceptance from some anonymous ASCII person? Or if she is going to meet this person, how about in a safe and public place? Or with friends!

    It is so frustrating to me that women (my friends! my family!) are so stupid and guilable that they just open themselves up to danger, and then wonder why.

    Before anyone flames me (if anyone even reads these) Yes, I have done stupid things and put myself in danger in my stupid youth. And yes, I have paid the consequences, and was too afraid to seek help. This is what frustrated me so. You can't control what happens to you--you could be coming out of Chuck E Cheese and be attacked--but you can be cautious, and hope that you can be the other 2 women who aren't living with the aftermath of a sexual assault.

    Heather
  • Posted by Aelfgifu:

    Doubt it would stop anyone from carrying out a rape. Remember, castration is removing the testicles, not the penis. And even if you did remove the penis, one could always use something else. Remember, rape is about PowerandCONTROL not getting off.
  • Posted by Kwizatz Aderach:

    One in six women raped or harassed befor high school ?!? Wow, i'm glad I don't live in the US...
  • Posted by nernin:

    you may be leery of "absurd crime stats" but think about how many women you know have been raped. i only know 2 who havent. total. of every single woman i know/have known. how many do i know who have reported their rape? none.

    how many of these women have been raped more than once? more than half.

    how many times have i been raped? more than five.
    how many times have i reported it? none.


    arguing about the validity and reliability of these stats is not the point.

    to serve the need of a lobbying group? stopping violence against more than half the population is a lobbying group? thats an interesting concept.

    this is not a statistical issue. this is a day-to-day reality for *at least* one woman you know. if you think otherwise, then you haven't been listening.

    *e.

  • Posted by thex:

    To say that death is preferable to a life of pain is just stupid. Most of us live with pain every day, but not all of us are victims. Even rapists can be victims, does that mean they have a right to hurt others?

    Spiritual dogma aside, you can recover from the trauma and shame of rape. You can rebuild your self-esteem and help others rebuild theirs. You can become stronger for having been harmed. It is hard to see how you can recover from murder.

    Anybody who says death is better than life doesn't value life enough. But then again, most of them probably spend their entire lives avoiding pain, so what would they know about growing through it?

    Where is the effort to reach out to the boy who has not yet raped? Shall we leave him to suffer alone? Perhaps it is too hard. Perhaps we should just punish and comfort. Righteousness takes much less effort than empathy. Punishment is a cheap alternative to justice.

    Show me someone who wants to live, and I will show you someone who has already left behind the stigma of 'the victim'. Show me someone prepared to be hurt again, knowing better than most how much it can hurt, and I will show you the courage that idealogues will never know.

    peace, love, unity, respect

    thex
  • Posted by Stephen "The Carp" Carpenter:

    Its amazing hat people are so ignorant.

    My current girlfriend and I live together...
    we met on "The Internet". A co-worker of
    mine met his wife "On the internet"
    (amazingly on the same online service that
    I met my girlfriend...tho 7 years
    apart)

    I have met a total of about 5 people "From the
    net". Course one of them was scared of meeting
    me...(for the reasons of this story above)
    but things have always gone well.
  • Posted by Stephen "The Carp" Carpenter:

    It is amazing what people get away with
    in our society.

    Every day women are brutally raped yet...we
    would rather expend money and respouces
    on drug raids and "Consensual crimes" rather
    than going after violent criminals.

    Then we have the actual attitude towards rape.
    We have the "but she was asking for it" group
    who either don't believe her or just don't care.

    Then we have people who cheapen the word
    rape by applying it to consensual sex...
    because they were drunk/stoned/whatever and
    don't want to take responsibility for their
    actions.

    The whol eidea just makes me sick. But more so
    that people use it to attack the "internet"
    I mean, for every person who preys on
    netizens...there are many more rapists out in
    the real world who don't need to use a computer
    to find their prey.

    I think that it is time that we as a society stop
    trying to blame the net and actually do something.
  • by gavinhall ( 33 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:12AM (#1956362)
    Posted by u4ic-fx:

    Not that I dont feel sympathy and compassion for the victims of such incidents, but realistically
    a little common sense go's a long way, there are many guidelines for meeting people from the internet and unfortunatly, untill you actually meet that person, you'll never know if anything of what they've said is true, that being said
    for those who will continue to find new friends online and meet them irl here are a few common sense things to take into consideration..

    talk on the phone first, before meeting someone for the first time, hearing their voice will give you an indication of whether or not they are who/what they say they are ie a 40 year old claiming to be 18 etc

    insist on a meeting in a public place, with your friends and their friends ie a coffee shop

    make sure atleast several people online have given u "references" about the person..

    yeah its being a bit paranoid, but hey, better to be paranoid, than a rape/kidnapping victim,
    for complete lists of suggested idea's check a search engine for bdsm sites (yeah its off topic) but they usually have a faq about saftey for meeting someone for the first time.. its not totally relevant but alot of the concepts cross over, above all think with your brain, not your sexdrive
  • Of course most people on the net just want sex. This has nothing to do with the character of the net, the anonymity, or anything else specific. The simple truth is that all but a very few people (men AND women) have sex as the primary, if not only, goal in their lives. Mitch is 100% correct when he says there's really no difference between meeting after telecommunication and without it. In both cases, odds are both people just want sex out of it anyway.

    Don't look so shocked. You knew this already.

  • You're being silly and a show-off.

    Show-off? Huh? I'm simply saying what everyone else already knows. It's relevant and on-topic; what's your gripe?

  • Lots of "freaks" respect concerns about safety and consent more than lots of "normal people". Perhaps you need some more precise insults.
    --
  • :) ALL HAIL BRAK, indeed.

    Back on the BBSes, I never saw the point of cybersex, and generally if I chatted, I'd chat with people I already knew in RL, or people I'd probably never meet.

    Yep, with every medium there are new dangers, but these are still the same people. If Ann Landers warns all the moralistic people away from the Internet, then she might have a self-fulfilling prophecy on her hands. Not that I ever listened to her... :)

    Let Brak do the credits!
  • We? I treat people like people.

    I live in a relatively free and democratic society, if you don't want to be dominated, then stand up for yourself. If you never learned how, then I'm sorry.

    Not everyone has good parents, or learns all the right lessons, but some of us learn how to think for ourselves, strive for what we want, and avoid the battles that don't need to be fought.

    Personally, I'm an Atheist, because I never saw the point in religion. I'm not terribly aggressive because I don't see how that would get me what I want out of life. I don't personally understand rape because (a) I don't have relationships with people I don't love and (b) I'd never want to do that to someone I love. Make your own morals and live by them, because if you don't know what you want, you're already in trouble.

    I share the wish for swift justice in cases where the brutality is obvious, but I can't blame society for everything. If you want to be treated like a person, act like one, and don't put up with people who can't do the same.

    (In this case, sue the people who let their stereotypes get in the way of their job, and rely on support from whatever friends you have. Then try to put the past behind you. Sometimes good people end up in horrible situations, and it can take a long time to recover from them.)
  • He was referring to the openness phenomenom caused by the net.
  • The detective, I mean.

    I'd give my left arm to see him produce a transcript of all her chat sessions on the net.

    Of course, I understand fully why catching the cop in his lie wasn't at the forefront of her mind, but, God, he's done her an incredible disservice and should be held accountable for having done so.

    To my sense of justice, he's almost an accessory after the fact. Harboring a fugitive...


    Pisses me off.

    Don Negro
  • I met my current g/f through the Internet who I see in real life and have established multiple friendships that way as well. Hell, I even work with someone I met on the Internet. Not all is as bad on the "crazy, uncontrolled Internet" as the media would like you to believe. Hearing this story from one of our own however, makes you think that it CAN happen to you.

    I'm very sorry to hear of what happened to your friend. My heartfelt sympathies. I hope she gets that bastard - and the asshole cop/detective too. I would file a complaint against him, even.

    Use common sense when meeting strangers - whether through the Internet or not - it really doesn't matter HOW you made initial contact - but rather in the first face-to-face meeting. For Gods sake, do it in a public place! Never invite someone to your house or even tell them where you live!

  • You can bet they monitor if not log allllll that shit...
  • ...in our own ways. Of course, there are definate head cases out there, but thankfully, the people I've met online are all wonderful people.
  • I'd rip that cop a new one and then see him in court. That was completely rude, uncalled for and unprofessional in every sense.
  • ...also often "limit" it's visitors to a relatively local area.
  • by mholve ( 1101 )
    Hell, I've been abusing cops as long as I've been a geek... Guess it came from the 80's mohawk/punk days. :)
  • Seems you have a new friend... :)
  • Agreed! But AOL seems to be a hotbed for this kind of crap. It wouldn't surpise me in the least if AOL logged their chatrooms. They have the resources to do so, certainly.

    I never said I condoned it... Nor did I say that AOL was in relation to this story... ;>

  • You're meeting in a public place. That's great!

    However, I suggest you have a parent, a friend or a taxi take you to and from said meeting place. Once you're in the car alone with him, you're at his mercy.

    Find out what he's really like first, perhaps through a few dates. You'll know pretty quickly if he's a schmo or not.

  • Perfectly normal people don't mate on the Net.

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but who the hell are you to determine who/what is "normal" and what is not? It would seem that a rather large number of people here have met their SO online or at least the Internet had some hand in it.

    I am no exception.

    I am a whack job, but I love it.

    There is no such thing as normal. Unless of course, you love statistics. Then there's an average. But not a normal.

    Having been in the "dating game" as much as the next guy, I'd rather meet someone online than in a bar any day, thank you.

  • Just because you're not logging your MUD's conversations doesn't mean that no one is. There are these things called sniffers, y'see.... ;)

    Of course, I agree with you about the cop's statements "All this stuff is logged, and I have access to the logs!! And if I find out you even hugged him ...". That kind of statement is just a scare tactic toward his victim.

    I think the sooner we realize that cops are of no real benefit for protecting individuals and take it upon ourselves, the better. I, too, speak from experience.



  • Hey, no one has ever recovered from a murder.
    So? For a murder victim, I suspect that not recovering is not as big a deal.

    Things are rather different for the rape victim.

    Matthew.

  • I totally agree with this editorial. I've met people that I know from IRC, and as a rule they have all been pleasant experiences. Before I was wise in the ways of internet meetings, I met a girl from a telnet chatter (sorta like a mud, but no fighting). She claimed to be the standard 36-24-36 or whatever, even during our phone conversations. I agreed to meet her IRL just to be extremely surprised when she was zero percent what she described online. Luckily, I was in my home turf. After visiting me and a couple of my friends that were similarly plugged in, we had a couple brews and called it a night. Sent her home the next morning at 9:30.

    I've learned my lesson well. I now only meet groups of people with other groups of people that I already know. Gathers are relatively safe. Also if you're meeting a potential sexual partner, it may not be a bad idea to have a couple friends meet first with the new person. Sex on a first date generally isn't a good idea anyway.

  • I've found that I am very open on the net, but after using the internet for, hmm, 5-6 years, I've become a lot more open in real life, as well. It might just be me growing up, but the way I was headed, I couldn't talk to anyone about anything. So, I guess, as far as I'm concerned, there isn't so much a split between internet personalities and real-life personalities...


  • I don't know what world the author is living in. Who is going to argue that rape is the most violent crime? Forced to choose between submitting to one of two evils, who would choose death over rape? Answer: Not many people.


    This is especially true when the rapist uses weapon in order to get the wictim to submiss. If
    the wictim submisses, I think that it often means the the wictim would rather be raped that killed
    or mutilated.
  • You're male, aren't you. I mean to say that this kind of "it's not that bad" thinking usually comes from people who it's not likely to happen to.
    Yes - I am male. It shouldn't be hard to guess because most slashdot readers are male. But what does it have to do with my opinions? I didn't say that rape isn't bad. I said that there are also worse things than just an ordinary rape case. BTW - some have said that males are more often the victims of rapes. Look for example http://www.spr.org/ (Stop Prisoner Rape). I think that usually prison rapes are worse than usual rape case outside prison. Often in prison the victim will be raped day after day and doesn't get protection from prison officials.

  • I understand that people are sometimes convicted wrongly. However, couldn't the 3 strikes rule apply to sex offenders as well? By the 3rd conviction I think it would be safe to say it's not a case of mistaken identity. When they reach that point I say get out the knife and hack
    away.


    And I thought that civilized world had left the notion of corporal punishment. But of course I forgot that it is still legal to spank children in USA -- so I shouldn't be so surprised that these kind of opinions are so common in USA. BTW - I am sure that be whackkin the arms of those who drive under the influence of alcohol, we could prevent many of repeated acts of driving under influence of alcohol.
  • Imagine feeling the penetration (anal in your case), forceful, brutal, unyielding. Imagine feeling your tissues tearing as it continues, with your own blood serving as the only lubrication against the force of someone bigger, stronger than you.
    It probably would be traumatic experience, but at least I would try to get over it. Like one rape victim said, she thought it was crazy to thought rape as end of life. She felt that it was mistake to spend the rest of life in misery and thought that it was the end of life (like some seem to think). Of course it was very traumatic experience and she will probably never forget it, but she was able to continue her life and be happy again. Please -- don't misinterpret me. I am not saying that it's only question of attitude how well one will survive rape experiencies. For example - people are different and there are milder and more severe rapes. But one should try to continue living -- it is not that uncommon that the wictim will be able to have a good life even though (s)he was a victim of rape. BTW - if there are between 1/6 and 1/3 of all women raped during their lifetime, I would say that clearly many of them are able to have good life even after rape. But it can take time... And it's also important not to make the thing worse by repeating how awfull thing the rape was and how her/his life is now destroyed forever. That kind suggestions can make themselves true.

  • Personally, I'd rather be tortured to death rather than raped. At least it's over and you don't gotta live with it for the rest of your shattered life.


    Torture can take long time and include raping. And you can always kill yourself after the rape if you really feel that life after rape is not worth living. In fact -- in many muslim countries the relatives of raped girls do exactly that -- killing the victims of rape for the honour of the family.
  • I cannot but agree with everything exposed in this article. I have myself met a great many people in person that I've met before in the 'net (including my fiancé). It is not much more different than meeting people by any other means. Why people fail to recognise that those cases where someone gets raped by some sex maniac from the 'net are due to the victim having being too naive just escapes me.
  • You've proven the anthesis of your argument.

    Phone users aren't given a bad name by crank callers because crank callers have a different label. No one generalizes the actions of crank callers to the actions of the phone using population as a whole.
  • Whatever happened to the notion of a "jury of one's PEERS"?

  • She later mentioned that a real-life friend of hers admonished her for meeting me, claiming she hardly knows me. Well, how much do two people know each other on a first date for coffee or dinner?
    That's pretty interesting. I get "we don't know each other well enough" a lot when I ask women I know out to lunch or dinner.
    I'm still trying to figure out how you get to know someone without spending time with them. I'm sure I'm coming across as bitter.
  • This is really a story about a sick cop with a chip on his shoulder. The victim should be launching a civil suit.

    I think the cautionary aspect of the tale is not so much about rape (don't bring strangers home on the first date, duh). It's about nerds being a new minority for cops to abuse.

    When dealing with cops, it's sometime best to follow the Church of The Subgenius motto:"Act like a Dumbshit and they'll treat you as an equal."

  • "Rape is a crime so horrible that not even innocence is an adequate defense."

    Just as it is in a woman's interests not to put herself in situations where she can be rapes even though no on deserves to be raped, it is in a man's interest not to put himself in a situation where he will be falsely accused.

  • Dershowitz should be disbarred for making a comment like that.

    I didn't think that you could be disbarred for sarcasm.

  • It is in every person's best interest not to put him or herself in a situation where he or she will be falsely accused. So what? Does anyone do this intentionally? Is it possible to avoid this entirely?

    It's not possible to avoid anything entirely, but you can reduce your chances.

    How can you know whether someone is going to falsely accuse you of rape? Well, you could get to know them before you have sex. The poster who started this thread had sex with a girl who had a jealous boyfriend. Hmmm... emotionally dysfunctional and dishonest -- this is nature's way of saying "keep it in your pants."

    The fact is, you can spot the crazy ones (usually). Trust your intuition, instincts, "gut feelings" or whatever. This "inner voice" has been brought to you by millions of years of evolution to alert you of danger that may not be obvious from first-order analysis.

    Would you tell a woman not to put herself in a position where she will be falsely accused?

    Of course, but women are rarely accused of rape at all, much less falsely. Ironically, the two women I know who were raped were actually raped by other women. It's actually worse for them, because people don't take their trauma as seriously.

  • to not be in the situation so you cant be accused you either have to keep away from women all together (Espically feminists they are all wacked) or become a homosexual..

    Hey, how about forming a meaningful, trusting relationship over a period long enough to evaluate whether a woman's playing with a full deck? Can your microscopic brain grasp this concept?

    I guess all of us should kill ourselves... espically us Christian/white/conservative/males. we cause all the pain in the world ya know.

    I can't speak for the world, but your post has certainly caused me pain.

  • If you read what you are disagreeing with, you'll find that the author of that said that 1 in 6 college students will be raped before graduation. The usual 1 in 3 statistic refers to people overall ... college students are younger on average than the general population and are therefore less likely to have been raped .... yet.

    If you want to be less leary of the statistics, do some research for yourself. I agree that any number like this is subject to a variety of forms of statistical bias, but you will find, if you do the research, that 1 in 3 is about the right order of magnitude no matter how you define the problem.

    It is also consistent with my personal experience.


  • You are absolutely right that I misread
    the quote. Thanks for pointing this out
    to me.


    Rereading it, I disbelieve 1-in-6, it is,
    in my experience, way too low.


    (I'll stick by my statement that comparing
    the general population with the general
    college population will give you vastly
    different results, however, and that was
    the point I was originally trying to make.)

    Thanks!

    -Joe

  • | It was crazy... she couldn't even sign on to
    | check her mail without all of these messages
    | popping up from strange guys asking
    | her what she was up to. She was almost
    | completely turned off to the internet from this
    | experience.

    This reminds me of what I went through as a freshman in college. Everybody was given a mainframe account - and among its uses were such niceties as email and (local) chat.

    Unfortunately for me, the login ID I was given ( "charlet" ) could apparently be mistaken by freshmen in drunken stupors for a "female" ID. (stands for CHARLEs Taylor). Eventually, I just turned off the chat/messages features altogether and told my friends to just send e-mail.

    I can imagine AOL being worse by about a factor of ... Avogadro's number.
  • First let me give a thanks to Rob for posting this story. It certainly doesn't hurt to have an article with some substance to it.

    This is the first time I've ever heard an something like what the police officer expressed. How many people really think this of us? Don't people realize that the people on the internet are the same people that exist everywhere else, but perhaps with animinity knocking down a few walls (Note to self: ask Rob to add a spell checker...).

    I remember when one of my aunts first got on the internet. She enjoyed those chat rooms, using that Microsoft video chat I can't recall the name of at this moment. My cousin, who should have known better, told her to join the adult groups so as not to have 10 year olds constantly trying to talk to her.

    When I next saw her, she asked if sex was all anybody on the net was interested in. Having been a frequent user of IRC and generally avoiding the sex groups, I was wondering why she was having such a hard time doing so. I wonder how many others make the same sort of mistake.


  • Rape is not worse than murder. Give me a break. I am _not_ trivializing rape but I get tired of people trivializing murder.

    Trivializing murder is also an argument often used by death penalty supporters and it annoys the hell out of me. People seem to VASTLY underestimate the will to live.

    For example, to take your scenario of torture and legs and arms being cut off, I would say that yes that would be much preferable to being killed.
  • Nonsense. If the author thought she would be better off dead she would be dead. Period. Don't underestimate the will of people (and other living beings for that matter) to live, even in what seems to us to be the most miserable circumstances.
  • And you don't know what you're talking about. I'm so sick of people trivializing the act of taking someones life.

    A rape victim's life may be very bad for some time after, or even for the rest of their life, but unless they prove it by commiting suicide, they'd rather live their life than be killed.
  • Your friend needs to get out a little more often! ;)

    Someone already touched upon the anonymity/masq effect of the text-based chat, and the effects of these things are profound. Road-rage springs out of a very similar thing, with our cars becoming our masqs, and every strange masq an enemy/victim until proven otherwise.
  • The only time I persue, let alone enjoy, any form of on-line chat is when the qroup in question is seriously involved in an engrossing persuit, like Quake.

    Comments are usually brief, humorous and punctuated by rounds of heavy artillery. What more is there?

    The few irc/chat rooms I've experienced are entertaining ONLY (to me) on the level of dismally entrancing spectacle, like a car accident. I get enuff of that here on Slashdot, so why bother? ;)
  • If the internet were not involved none of these cases of a 14 year old flying out to be with some man they think they love would make anything mor ethan the local news. There seems to be this inherent assumption that there are more perverts, rapists, child molesters, or whatever on the internet than there are in society at large. But, there is no good evidence one way or another that I have found that isn't anecdotal. So, here is my proposed challenge to the Slashdot effect.

    Let's find a good study one or the shows one way or the other whether there is a greater or lower occurrence of perverts, rapists, child molesters, with internet ties than without. I bet any difference would be statistically insignificant.

    The study also should compensate for the differences between the people who are on the on the internet vs not. For example: the is a minimum affluence level for hte internet where the person has to at least be able to afford a computer and internet connection.
  • In Indiana, statutory rape laws state that having sex with a woman under 16 is illegal, unless you have her consent and her parents' consent, in which case the age drops to 14.

    Personally, though, I think at age 14 it's pretty ridiculous to think someones parents would give consent.

    leapfrog, the mediocre.

  • <sarcasm>
    But capital punishment is a powerful deterrant. Don't you think that if that was the punishment for convicted murder that the amount of murders would drop?
    </sarcasm>

    Looked at the number of people sitting on death row lately...

    Rapists and Murderers are {mostly} mentally ill. Maybe they need to be locked up *and* 'reprogrammed' for better interaction with society. But don't think that a 'big stick' deterrant will influence someone who is mentally unhinged already.
  • And if the police even APPEAR to not support her case she should sue them. This officer is unfit for duty in the same way as the judge who in a rape case allows the defenses "what she was wearing provoked me" or "everybody knows she is a slut... she wanted it even if she doesn't admit it".

    It's just amazing to me the preconcieved notions the ignorant will carry around with them. It's depressing to know things will not get better, and we'll never have a completely computer-literate or even literate world. I'm sick of people, especially parents/breeders, looking for scapegoats (Internet, Judas Priest, Beavis and/or Butthead) instead of instilling responsibility in their offspring. I have no idea how old the victim is here, but the people of this town should demand an apology from the officer for the comments he made to her.



  • The idea of meeting people online has sparked many discussions among my group of friends this year. My roommate sees nothing wrong with meeting others in chat rooms, and will argue until he is blue in the face that it is no different than meeting people out in "the real world." Now I'm not a chat person myself...the extent of my Internet socialization is the occasional game of bridge on Yahoo! where I will exchange greetings with those I am playing with as a matter of courtesy.

    If I were to ever become the chat room type, I think I could keep myself limited to using it for informational purposes. That is, I see IRC and similar things as fine forums for collaboration, catching up with friends from far away, etc. I personally would never use it to try and meet others to establish relationships that would eventually result in a face-to-face meeting.

    The whole idea makes me quite leery, actually. I understand that there are a lot of you out there who have "success" stories, and that it has turned out to be a good experience. That's great, and you are fortunate. But please, spare me the details...because I find personal anecdotes used as support of a view to be largely worthless and a very weak form of argument. Your personal experiences do not extrapolate to the whole situation. Until we see a substantive study by a research group of sociologists, psychologists, or whoever is qualified to do such a thing, we should really withhold judgment about this behavior. I cannot say it is better or worse than meeting people in real life, only that I have a gut feeling about it that I cannot ignore.

    Several generations ago it was common for marriages to be arranged, and it still happens in some societies. Decisions were made for people based on socio-economic status and reputation, not on the chemistry two young people established. In these times we are used to the idea that in most cases, we need to get a complete picture of a person before we consider embarking on a serious relationship. Personality, looks, intelligence, habits--some or all of these are important to all of us. That was a major change in the way people met and decided to spend the rest of their lives with each other. What I wonder is what the growing number of people online will do to this process. I think we should all be patient with it and be extra careful until we have a sense of the wider implications and the trends.
  • by Kozz ( 7764 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:21AM (#1956425)
    Indeed, it seems that many people are so much less introverted when conversing upon the 'net that they don't really take heed to the fact that there is a real person on the end of the conversation. They'll spill their guts about anything and everything, and often telling the things about their personal lives we don't want to hear.

    Through many different ways I've met people from online games, IRC, etc and despite the fact that the conversations were purely ASCII, using all those characters like (* ! $ _ etc) help to emphasize sarcasm, humor, sadness, etc. And many times, you really can get a good idea whether or not the person you're speaking (typing) to on the other end is really who they say they are, or if they're just "blowing smoke up your ass".

    For example, I'll describe to you someone who I've worked with a bit, and have known only via the web. He runs some websites, and I occasionally write small, custom Perl scripts for his sites. Now, when first meeting him I found that he was 15 years old. Okay, that's fine. I can respect anybody as long as they can be somewhat mature whilst conversing and avoid talking like a "warez d00d'. But then he goes on to tell all sorts of tall tales. They're not all impossible or unlikely, but take them all together and you see what I mean. A few of them are:
    His dad makes $350,000 per year. (not hard to believe all by itself)
    He makes literally thousands of dollars per month without hardly any effort because he runs all of his porn sites so well. (Wow, thousands? that's some site!)(
    He expresses his concern about being able to pay me for my scripts (very inexpensive), yet says he's got this really expensive sports car. (strange finances, fast cars?)
    Talks way too much about how many "girlfriends" he's got and how often he's "getting a piece". (*UGH* like I care or need to know)

    And you get the idea. Why do people try so hard to impress others on the Internet? Or in any other way, for that matter? Shit, I've always been more impressed by a simple friendliness and honesty than tall tales of money & sex. If I find a person whom I can hold a "geek-ish" conversation with, that's enough for me. I'm not interested in their personal lives' details that supposedly describe how popular they are or how successful they are.

    Give me some simple intelligent feedback amongst all the noise on the net. Then I'll be impressed.

  • by FireReaper ( 11087 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @12:33PM (#1956448)
    First off, I seriously hope that Kira will be able to recover from her ordeal and be able to live her life fully.

    I'm male and throughout high school, I never really understood Rape. I mean, I had gone for years believing that it was nothing more than someone who was sexually out of control. And I never understood why my female friends either avoided the subject like a I was screaming and dying from ebola or why they got extremely upset.

    But luckily, I had a good many friends who took the time to explain a few things to me. For that, I am grateful.

    It isn't the sex, it is the power and control. Power.. control. To control and manipulate another human being, to be able to use them as one pleased. To unleash the full of one's darker side onto another human being.

    Why would people want to do that to another person? Why would ANYONE want to do that to another person? Why would you, do that?

    I think alot of people avoid that line of thought. The consideration that they might have that kind of personality within themselves.

    I mean.. your "basic rapist" is like anyone else. Nevermind the internet. But he or she can be anyone.. your next door neighbor, the teacher at your school, your old friend of years and years, parents, and even children.

    What made them step over that line and continue doing what so many people consider to be so horribly bad?

    I personally don't have an answer to that. And I don't think many people do either.

    To the persons who think murder is worse than rape, I beg to disagree. I think Rape is worse. Rape has all the characteristics of murder, but the victom often survives at a cost. The friends and family are affect like in a murder, but must not only deal with their grief, but that of the victom's. A long path to healing takes place, one where the victom must work through the questions I asked above. The Why? Was it something I did? Why would someone do this to me? Why? Why?

    I think it is very true though, when women say that men don't understand. Alot of men don't understand. Many do, but there are still so many who don't. And to be truthful, I don't feel that even understanding really stops rape. Rape happens because an individual, a human being, decided that they will do this for their own personal reasons. They are convinced in their mind that the person who will be the victom deserves what they will be getting.

    I don't know.. the net isn't the problem, it has only dredged up into the open what has always been a problem. People will disagree, but that is their choice.

    As for castration, castration does no good. Hormone treatment does no good. Rape IS about CONTROL and POWER. Just because you remove one tool, doesn't mean a person can't commit rape. Rape. To take from another human being what they have refused, what society has refused the rapist. No, removing an organ or dampening the effects of a hormone does little good.

    A person can rape as effectively with their hand, a broom stick, a candle, a bottle, rope, whipes, whatever. Just as equally effective as with their own organs.

    On the topic of men being raped by woman, another topic which my friends were kind enough to share their thoughts on. Because rape IS about control, it doesn't matter what gender the rapist is. Male, female, neutor, old or young. The point is to have power and control over another.

    For a man, to be used and had in any way his captor would have him, it is in every way as demeaning, humiliating, and traumatising as it is for a woman. No more, no less. With one difference.

    The support structure and the mental association is there for women. But for men, it is something which either is rare, or not available. There is no sanctuary for men.

    And I highly doubt that traumatized women would enjoy sharing the facilities with traumatized men.

    Maybe I'm in the wrong when I think that rapists should probably be dragged into the streets and shot. The media would like that. Sensationalism and a message to other would be rapists.

    But that would be inhumane. I just wish the rapist had wondered whether it would be humane to rape his or her victom.

    My two cents.

    - Wing
    - Reap the fires of the soul.
    - Harvest the passion of life.
  • Several years ago my wife wanted internet access. Since she was not that computer savy I used one of the numerous AOL disks we were using as coasters and setup an account for her.

    After this experience I have one piece of advice that I give women that are about to sign up with AOL or a similar service: Use a manly sounding nickname.

    It was crazy... she couldn't even sign on to check her mail without all of these messages popping up from strange guys asking her what she was up to. She was almost completely turned off to the internet from this experience.

    Needless to say, we canceled the account and I just let her run through my dedicated line. She may not have all of the fancy(?) features of an AOL, but she can check her e-mail and browse the net in peace.
  • I certainly would choose to be raped rather than to be tortured to death. Of course rape can sometimes include torturing to death, but most rapes aren't so seirous cases. I don't want to belittle rapes, but some cases just aren't as severe than some other cases.

    Granted, torture is certainly a frightening concept, and a genuinely lousy way to die, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that rape is a tad more common than torture-to-the-death, neh? I don't remember seeing any statistics along the lines of "1 in 10 women are violently tortured to death." Arguing that rape is a "less violent crime" misses the point entirely. Rape happens, commonly, to a lot of people.

  • Why are people more open on the net than in real life?

    I think the main reason is because you don't have the fear of being laughed at or made fun of if you say or do something stupid. I myself am very open when I'm online (if anyone doubts this, just look at my website [claws-and-paws.com] ;-), and have made friends from around the world, some of whom I've even been able to meet in person.

    Sure, people get raped and such meeting someone whom they've met on the Internet, but it certainly happens in real life too, and I'll even go out on a limb and hypothosize that it happens more in RL than on the Internet since on the Internet, if someone has a hostile personality, you'll be able to see it right away and not even consider wanting to meet them.

    In a nutshell, I think the advantages of meeting people on the net far outweigh the disadvantages.

  • This detective was obviously an asshole.

    But the whole internet angle is only a new twist on a problem with a long history, which is that women who are raped cannot effectively press charges unless they are basically the purest most chaste thing on the planet. Any hint that a woman ever actually wanted sex in her life, and this is the way the whole damn justice system will treat her.

    It is sad that these kinds of backwards attitudes are still around.

  • by Zebulun ( 14800 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @09:55AM (#1956481) Homepage
    This may be one best fielded by Katz,
    but I'm curious to see why people are
    so open on the net. I've seen others as
    well as myself open up and talk about very
    private things as well as curse out and
    use language I never would in real life
    to complete strangers. Is it that ASCII
    text and animated chat room icons lets us
    hide behind a false face: One we can draw
    ourselves and discard at anytime.

    I think so. I think that whenever talking
    to someone who hides behind a cute nick and
    quickly turns the conversation to an unusually
    intimate level clearly indicates a possible
    sexual preditor. Women need to watch out.
    check references. use their skills: ping and
    traceroute to see where they really are talking
    from.

    But this doesnt mean everyone is "out to get you".
    Just use commen sense and caution.

    my 2 cents.

    -Z
  • by EWillieL ( 15339 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:02AM (#1956486)
    Not so long ago, a woman's rape charge could be successfully attacked in court with claims like, "Look how she was dressed! She must've wanted it!" This is just the same sorry attitude resurfacing on the "new frontier". I guess it was never dead, just dormant.

    So sorry to hear of your friend's experience. I hope she can learn to trust again someday.

    Peace.
  • by BlackHawk ( 15529 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:14AM (#1956488) Journal
    First, please allow me to express the deepest outrage for Kira489's predicament. The fact that she was raped, then raped again by our so-called "justice system" is nothing less than a moral catastrophe on the part of both rapists. And I purposely use the term for both the criminal, and the detective, assuming that what I've read is what happened.

    It brings to light, however, a growing possibility that such Internet crimes might escape adequate prosecution, due to the detective's "logic". That is, the ludicrous proposition that a person who "hugs" someone virtually has opened the door for a claim of consensual sex.

    Let's bring it closer to home. I'm a man. For a moment, let me pick a volunteer, another man; You, sir! Yes, you with the buzzcut and the goatee. Thanks for volunteering, pleased to meet you. There, we shook hands. We made contact, in fact, of a physical nature. I put out my hand, and he clearly consented to touch it. Now, on occasion, I hug other men, usually close friends and family, but I'll make an exception here for this fine fellow. There, he again consented. Does that mean I can now engage in anal sex with this man, whether he protests or not, at any point in the operation, based on his "consent" to the hug? Of course not! (Gee, look at 'im run...)

    The point is, we have the ability to refuse to comply with any action at any time, whether we ever performed the action before or not, whether we planned to perform it or not. We are not required, nor should it be assumed we are willing, to engage in sex just because we once did. Kira489 probably did virtual-hug her rapist. She might have done alot more than that, virtually. She might have done more than that physically, and it means nothing! The second she said "Stop," and the assailant refused, it was rape. Period. Frankly, I say execute the rapist, but that's my opinion.

    Back to the medium of the Internet. Folks, we can't say this enough: all those people who have been raped, robbed, beaten and killed by people they met online probably either never thought about the possibility, or simply figured that "it won't happen to me." Just like we all do. The fact that it can must weigh heavily in our decision to meet someone. I know it's titillating to chat with some people on the wire. I know several people who, in fact, invent elaborate personas to role play online, with unsuspecting people. Many of whom, I'm sure, are being just as fake as my friends. But when we take the chance of opening up to someone online, and exposing ourselves to a meeting in "meatspace", then all those defenses we have collapse: IP masqing, finger-deactivation... none of that works when the person is standing right in front of you.

    Be not as these, I say. Think. Be a little paranoid. The cost of serious misjudgement of character is too high.

  • Yeah, I think that is the basic idea, but some people believe that Internet chat people are normal. You don't need some else along all of the time, just make the first time you meet somewhere open and public, like a mall or a restaurant. Unless the person is a good liar, you should be able to tell what will happen.

    To some people, murder is better because you don't have to deal with it. Read When Heaven and Earth Changed Places and tell me what you think. The author thinks she would have been better off dead. There is also some articles at Salon Magazine about it too. Rape stays with you for the rest of your life. When you are dead, you aren't thinking "Hey, why did this happen to me?" Have you ever talked to a rape victim? It is not pretty. A slow and painful death is worse than rape, but not a gunshot to the head.

    Of course, never expierencing either makes me not the best person to judge.

  • by Tekmage ( 17375 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:31AM (#1956497) Homepage
    It's a simple substitution of every instance of the word "Internet" with the word "Telephone". Not completely grammatically accurate, but you get the idea.

    ...a little food for thought...

    perl: s/Internet/Telephone/g;

    Rape. It's a violent crime, arguably the most violent crime, even more savage than murder. The psychological repercussions are severe to the victim, causing even years of trauma. It's frighteningly common--and it's often associated
    with the Telephone. We've all heard the story in which a fourteen year old girl living in Maine is given a plane ticket to Arizona by a forty-seven year old man claiming to be a eighteen year old boy in an America On-line chatroom. She accepts--heck, she's in love and her parents are a pain--and flies to meet him. Of course, upon seeing him, she knows he's not the eighteen year old stud she'd fantasized about, but being alone and lost in a foreign city leaves her with no obvious choice but to leave the airport with him. Of course, he takes her to the local motor lodge and rapes her.

    Unfortunately, the media loves these stories, the more horrible the better. It's the media that establishes ideas in people, but I did not realize strength of the current attitudes about Telephone users until a friend of mine was raped by someone from the Big Bad Telephone. After the rape, which had taken place in her house, she went to her local hospital, where she was
    tested for sexually transmitted diseases, and her physical wounds treated. The rapist remained in her house, and she was advised to call the police. The police escorted the rapist off her property, and persuaded her to press charges, claiming she had a rock solid case. To this, she consented.

    Apparently, the detective in charge on her case didn't agree that the case was closed when he learned she had met the rapist on the Telephone. "They [Telephone users] are nothing but relentless sex addicts," he told her. "Furthermore, every conversation on the Telephone is logged. I can get access to these logs, and if I find that you ever hugged him on the Telephone,
    I will show that this is not a matter of rape, but consentual sex." He proceeded to ask if she had met others from the Telephone, which she had. Upon finding out that she had met me on numerous occasions, and even had sex with me, the "slueth" felt satisfied he had proved his point, "No one on the Telephone ever wants to do anything but have sex."

    Despite the fact that my friend was injured to the point that, according the documented hospital report, she had bruises and tears in her vagina, and the fact that people willingly having sex usually do not injure one another, the police threatened my friend with the possibility of putting her in jail if she was lying!

    It is ludicrous to believe that all people associated with the Telephone are sex-crazed maniacs, or that meeting someone in real-life is recipe for disaster. I've met a great deal of people from the Telephone, for both personal and professional reasons, and I've yet to be raped. Yes, like a few of my real-life friends and relationships, I even slept with a few people I met from the Telephone. I even spent a week with one Telephone pal snowed-in together during the blizzard that hit the midwestern United States this past January.

    Was I concerned about my safety at any of these times I met someone from the Telephone? No, I wasn't--no more than I would be meeting someone I didn't know very well in person for dinner and possibly spending the night together. I've never met someone from the Telephone expecting sex, and while I'm sure there are many that do, I would hazard a guess that the number that do is not any higher than people who know each other in real-life would in a similar situation (e.g.,
    sharing a hotel room in a town).

    I once met, with the permission of her mother, a girl in high school, since I happened to be traveling through her town and had some extra hours to spare for dinner. She later mentioned that a real-life friend of hers admonished her for meeting me, claiming she hardly knows me. Well, how much do two people know each other on a first date for coffee or dinner? Interestingly, the media refuses to acknowledge this similarity.

    It's important to be careful when meeting someone from the Telephone--just as it's normal to be careful in any situation where you've not spent a large amount of time together in person. It's important to realize that a person's remarks and responses in a chatroom or a MUD may be contrived, no matter how fluent they seem to flow. Likewise, there are plenty of phony
    men and women in every community, and you're just as likely to encounter them in real-life, rapists or not. Regardless, it is certainly not in the interests of society for those who enforce the law to ridicule rape, no matter the circumstances of how the involved individuals initially came in contact with each other. Rape is rape; it's a matter far too serious for qualification.
  • *sighs*

    This is an issue I have had to deal with for the last four years. It was then that I moved from BBSing to the 'Net and the gateways of meeting people online opened up. Since then, I have met...oh, quite a few...about 5 or so people that I met in chat rooms in Real Life. And, although she would kill me if she saw this, I met my fiance online as well. I'll get to why she'd kill me in a moment....

    Fact is, though, we *do* make friends online. But, just like meeting friends at college, you have to be paranoid and cautious. Perhaps, more so. Most of all, use a bit of what we have in Common Sense. When I met my first person, I traveled to LA, so you can imagine that I was very cautious even though we talked on the phone quite often for several months. We met in a public place, with plenty of people, and talked before we ever left anywhere else together.

    That set the pattern for all the rest of the meetings.

    I did not have to read any "Rules of Meeting People In Real Life" before hand, I just used my head before I jumped the gun. In fact, I had never seen a list like that until *after* that first trip. I knew there were risks involved and I could forsee the consequences, so I took measures to prevent them. Nothing is perfect, however, but a good bit of precaution can go a long way.

    And you might end up making a good Real Life friend out of it.

    Now, on to my fiance. She is actually one of the first people I talked to in a "Internet" chat room and we became friends over time, even collabing on some stories. Over time, our friendship was more. Now, at that time, the idea of a 'Net relationship was not on my mind...the idea was kind of...well, silly. But, at the same time, I could not deny that I felt more than just friendship. Through our collabs and our long phone talks, we got to know each other pretty well. So, it was decided, that for once and for all, we'd have to meet face to face -- just to find out.

    We met, I met her parents and family and we took things slowly. A step at a time, just to make sure we *knew* what we were doing and not making some huge mistake...possibly one that would ruin a good friendship. We knew that it would be risky, open to much criticism, but after that first week with her, I knew I did not want to be apart.

    And, for the record, there has never been any sexual intercourse. She is a stick-by-her-guns kind of woman and she will not until marriage. Male as I am, this has frustrated me, but at the same time, boosted my pride in her.

    That was back in '96. It's '99 now and our eventual marriage is just around the corner. Her parents approve of me -- and them being very traditional Chinese descent, I had a big mountain to climb there *wipes brow* -- and so does her extended family.

    However, she *hates* to let people know how we met. She fears the stigma and heavy critisicm that 'Net relationships have. Hell, even I had some negative beliefs about such before hand. If someone asks about it, she will tell, but she will never volunteer. I, personally, think we are freaky and abnormal, because we have succeeded in building a loving relationship from what started, in the beginning, as a chat and e-mail. I would, however, not recommend it to people who do not have the patience for it.

    One thing, though, that has helped us succeed: brutal honesty. And we know all about honesty on the 'Net now, don't we? Heh.

    As with any community and culture, there are the bad elements who are self-centered, self-serving, and with no personal respect for others. At time, we are all guilty of this, but the majority are better people than that. The minority, those who lie, devise, and purposely cause harm for their own satisfaction are those to look out for. And, of course, they're now on the 'Net as well.

    I'll never tell someone not to meet someone off the 'Net, but I will urge them to think carefully, ponder about the consequences, and not to take risky chances until you have gotten to spend more time with a person in real life in public.

    As with all things we do, online and off, we have to use common sense and consequences to guide us.

    Nothing else will suffice.
  • by LEGOGuy ( 20292 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @10:45AM (#1956522)
    I spent two years working as a counselor to rape
    and harassment victims, and spent a great deal of time pouring over Ohio laws and regulations on
    this issue.

    Rape is rape is rape. If she said "No," it doesn't matter if she pranced in front of him naked, drunk, high, and anything else. A hug in a chat-room means nothing; the cop was ignorant of the prevailing trends in dealing with issues of rape and harassment, and did more to promote the prevailing rape culture in dealing with this issue, not help fight it.

    One in six women are raped or harassed before graduating from college. Its not a blown-out-of-proportion statistic; its a scary fact. Educate yourself on your state's laws, learn what resources there are available for victims of harassment and rape, and if you know someone who is treated this way, support them. Listen to them, make yourself available, and make sure the individual (male or female) understands that its _not their fault_.

    Matt
  • I honestly hope that no one makes a joke about this or something. It really is serious. Rape is horrible, and personally, I think rapists should be put in a large room with eachother and shot, but thats me. As far as how this applies to the Internet...apparently that particular officer has taken the "I am the law and know all" attitude, as opposed to "I am human and need to learn about this" that is more proffesional and shows more courage than hitting someone with his opinion like it was his night-stick. The media has fun thinking the Internet is a bunch of sex freaks who go around kidnapping people they meet in chat rooms and pedophiling eachother and whatnot. Let them think that, it sells newspapers. Then look at all the good that has come out of the Internet, and the availability of this resource to get informed, and ask them why they are destroying their own tool?
  • by Flow ( 22148 ) on Tuesday March 30, 1999 @09:58AM (#1956534) Homepage
    While there are additional, or more accurately different, issues to be weary of when meeting Internet friends, its common-sense to take precautions when meeting anyone for the first time in "real life".

    You should always meet people in a public place, and if possible bring a friend along. If the person you have gotten to know over the past days, weeks, months really does care about you and is your friend they will more than undersatnd these precauations.

    If they are offended by your supposed lack of trust, then I'd say they are not worth your time anyway...

  • Maybe this person _did_ meet in a public place. The rapist could have been totally nice at the time, they hit it off great, etc. Then, they get back to the house and the guy pulls some Jekyll and Hyde routine. It isn't a whole lot different form anywhere else in this world just because it happens to start on the internet instead of a bar, gym, etc. It also isn't any more or less insidious that it happened the way it did. Like the author said, rape is rape. I don't care if she did invite the guy back and had _maybe_ led him on, via chat, to think they'd have sex. She has the right to refuse and he has the responsibility to not force the issue.
  • If you want paranoid (and in this case paranioa is a good thing) here are some more tips:

    - cab money, you don't want to be dependant on this guy for anything
    - make sure your friends/family know where you are going and when you can be expected to be home
    - if you are a drinker, stay sober

    It looks like you've already crossed one of the lines that people here have been recommending against: meeting people for the first time with a group of trusted friends.

    But be aware, that the odds are better than 90% that this guy is nice and you don't want to ruin a chance at a great relationship by treating him like Jack the Ripper. Just be aware and don't get into situations where you have absolutely no control.

A person with one watch knows what time it is; a person with two watches is never sure. Proverb

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