Catching a breath... 319
Heads Up. This is in the Be Careful What You Wish For Dept: A bunch of reporters and producers are trawling the site looking for geek kids to put on TV and radio, and to interview for newspaper stories. Journalism has suddenly discovered that this story is a little more complicated than violent video games and geek monsters.
Be careful, especially those of you who are younger. Some of these reporters get it, some don't. Some will worry about your best interests, and others won't. I've declined to give any e-mail addresses of kids relaying the realities of life in High School to reporters, since in some cases, radio and TV exposure would make their lives worse, not better.
It's an individual choice, but think about it. If you need guidance, please feel free to e-mail me, as I worked in newspapers and for a TV network before becoming a cyber-gasbag and writer.Update: 04/28 02:03 by H : Doug has also put up ListenToUs. This is a gathering place for us to communicate with each on social issues, especially in light of Littleton.
A buzz quote they might understand... (Score:1)
It's not groups, it's individuals.
Two disturbed INDIVIDUALS committed a horrible crime in Littleton. INDIVIDUALS made our lives a living hell in school. INDIVIDUALS ran the schools that denied us. There are good administrators, there are good jocks, there are good geeks. Unfortunately, one bad apple ruins the bunch: a bad administrator can have a ripple effect.
The reason the media pundits and others are trying to blame geeks is the need to generalize to make future predictions (duh). But anyone with a basic understanding of statistics (or has read 1984, for that matter) understands the danger of that line of thought. The line that we must toe as a society is balancing the present rights of a society versus its future good. This riddle manifests itself in so many ways, and gets many strong responses from all directions.
Where do I stand? I think it's important to err on the side of more freedom. The other side is a slippery slope, indeed.
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
Umm, what freedoms? Let's look at just one,
one that people think we have....speech.
If you say the wrong thing you
get fired/suspended/counselled. About the only
freedom of speech you got is to criticize our
laughable govt.
Ever try to organize a protest/rally or something
on a common? The runaround is nuts, from getting
permits to hiring cops its ludicrous.
When's the last time you saw anything on the news
about labor rights? Companies pay our media instiutions BIG bucks (mainly through advertising)
to make sure corporate criticism stays off the news.
Ever try to get a letter published in your local
newspaper about that raw deal you got at the
car dealership? I guarantee they won't publish it
because they make big bucks in car ads.
The people are not in control of free speech.
What PROSPERITY!??! LOL! Is commuting an hour each way to work supposed to be "the good life".
Paying $5000 a year to do it too!?
Buying "stuff"? Is that where its at?
Because that's what America is all about!
Alot of people spend ALOT of time Driving,
Working (more like "temping" nowadays), and Shopping.
We have a larger percentage of our country in personal debt then EVER before. Are these people
"prosperous"?
We have more of our wealth concentrated in fewer
hands then ever before.
We are one of the fattest countries.
Looks to me like the prosperity is only on TV.
About the only prosperity I see lately is everyone
is spawning like mad. Lotta kids being born....
>Now we have the most powerful nation on the >planet.
You mean we can kill the whole planet? Is this something to be envied?
Our standard of living is lower then many countries (Japan, Sweden). Got news for you, the US isn't number one. Our economy is precariously balanced on polluting, unsustainable automotive industries (steel, cars, roads... the biggest company in the US? GM).
The buying power of the dollar has consistently dropped since the mid 1980s.
Mark my words, in the future, it won't be countries that call the shots. It will be corporations. There are multinational corporations out there bigger and richer then many countries (Shell for example).
Somewhere along the line I missed the incredible swelling of public outrage and support for the Gulf War. There was virtually no public groundswell as a precursor to the war.
Of sure, after it started people got all patriotic. But seriously, the Gulf war had little to do with American People (obviously not including the people who WENT there blah blah). It was clearly about energy security for our economic future.
>Self loathing among Americans is once again on >the rise. There are some in our midst who feel >guilt at the great advances we've made.
Like what, cell phones? Color TV? Iconization of brand names so severe people kill each other for Nikes? Diet Coke? DDT? More cars then drivers?
Pollution so bad we smoke a pack a day just breathing? Beaches so dead you don't dare swim let alone fish or walk on the sand for fear of a needle.
I think alot of self loathing is justified. Americans are greedy, selfish people willing to
trash anything for a buck.
I can only think of one great advance in the last half of the century, the development of the computer (mostly done in US i think) and software (a worldwide effort i think).
I am, however, ashamed of the third world exploitation and pollution used to produce computers. (Let's just say chip fabrication ain't exactly friendly to mother nature).
> In order to purge themselves of that guilt they
>concentrate on the negative aspects of our >country. We've got x nmber of homeless...We had y >number of murders last year...Only z of us could >afford health insurance last year.
This would seem to reenforce guilt. Purging it would seem to need the opposite argument, ie. "look on the bright side". Also, those dismal numbers are usually percentages, used to compare the US to other countries, and in the comparison
we fare poorly.
>People all over the world bash the US, but >they're more than happy to take our aid in the >form of money from the international monetary >fund or the world bank. Who gives the most to the >UN? We do.
I think you need to do some research on the World
Bank before you start calling it some sort of
generous institution. The world bank is a business. They don't loan money out of "generosity". Like any lending instituion, they expect a return on the deal. The World bank has been consistently found corrupt, lending money to countries for unneeded projects that benefit large corporations (they are notorious for convincing countries they need huge Dams that cause untold headaches).
>...it was a bunch of tobacco smoking, gun toting >Americans who bailed you out.
and you wonder why americans have self loathing...
You conclude saying you're sick of foreigners trying to tell us how to run our country.
You should be rejoicing in it, after all,
Ain't free speech grand?
Testimony (Score:1)
Now, I'm not gay. I was a pretty normal kid. I'm not part of a minority. I am Jewish. I wasn't a cheerleader, but I wasn't the geekiest kid around. I was artistic, but I was never what you would call 'artsy.' Still, I guess there was something about me that made me a target. Maybe it was because I wore glasses. Maybe it was because I was smart. I don't know. All I do know is that I was different enough to be targeted by other insecure kids. And I was in a situation that made it easy for kids to believe that I was gay.
You see, all through school, I was lucky enough to be put into advanced classes. And I was musical, so I found an easy niche in the music department. By the seventh grade, my abilities in music were getting noticed by others, and I was alwasy seen on stage, either singing solos for chorus or having a leading role in the school play. I guess some people were unhappy about that. Out of that resentment, a rumor was started. A girl started a rumor by saying she saw me making out with a girl backstage. This was believable for a few reasons, I guess. I was often backstage, and at the time I was what you would call 'unattached.'
Well, you can believe that the rumor went through the grapevine like wildfire. Even though it was a lie, it was too juicy a rumor to keep quiet, and soon enough, everyone at school was whispering about me. I don't mean a few people. I mean the entire student body. Soon after, the name calling started. Every time I walked down the hall, I heard someone say the word 'dyke' over and over.
Adolescence is a time of insecurity for everyone. In my school it was harder for girls, just because guys didn't see that whistling and pinching butts was inappropriate. But every kid explores him/herself during this time. You explore your sexuality, you explore your appearance, you explore your life choices. You start dating too soon. I started dating too soon. I was eleven when I had my first boyfriend. And he dumped me because I wouldn't put out. He actually said that! I wouldn't put out! Geez. At twelve, I didn't even know what putting out was. Hell, I didn't have much to put out with back then... Anyway, if you're lucky, you leave the experience unscathed. When someone makes a statement about your sexuality, like these kids did, especially if it's untrue, it makes you stop trustin your own instincts; it makes you doubt yourself.
My self-confidence and self-image was shattered. Even younger kids were getting in on the name calling. I remember my across-the-street neighbor, who I played with since I was 3, calling me dyke at the bus stop. It was painful. Often, I ran from school crying, but there was no one I could tell. Obviously adults knew this was going on, but weren't doing anything to stop it. Even if there were someone to tell, I couldn't tell anyone. I was too embarrassed and ashamed. And I was afraid of the girl that started the rumor. Well, the two girls, really. They were older and bigger, and there were two of them. They could really hurt me.
The scars remained with me for a long time. Eventually, kids tired of the dyke game. Some of them even tried to become my friends. Some of them managed to make friends again. I went to high school. I dated a lot. I put out a lot. But I never dated anyone from my own school. Part of it was that I had trouble forgiving. And part of it was that I was convinced that no one would want anyone who was labeled 'dyke.' I guess the scars are still there. That's why they're called scars. It's been ten years since the seventh grade, and I still can't get the image of kids with mean and twisted faces, the chants of 'dyke, dyke, dyke' as I walked down the hall, head down. Even though I am graduating from Columbia University in just three weeks, have a great job and a boyfriend who loves me, I still have lingering feelings of doubt and depression. I don't understand why I deserve a life as good as I have now. Sometimes I don't know why someone as wonderful as my boyfriend would want me. The scars are deep and they are there.
To all those kids out there who are lonely, are feeling rejected, dejected and disrespected, I have some advice for you. Be strong. Understand that if you are being taunted, it's probably because the bullies who are taunting you need a pariah. They need to sacrifice someone in order to feel better about themselves. Chances are, you have intelligence and potential they can never have. And you are strong. Never forget your strength.
Notile les bastardes carborundum.
Don't let the bastards get you down.
Be careful please... (Score:2)
Be careful that we do not, in the course of accusing the media and school administrations of placing blame on a group of people, that we do not ourselves place blame on a group of people. I noticed in the previous stories that a lot of geeks are blaming people, including jocks, bullies, parents, and school administrators.
We have met the enemy, and it is us.
-Ben
I second Katz's warning... (Score:2)
As a last resort, he went to the press. I, and others, went with him. The press made him out to be public enemy number one. After all, hackers are evil. That sold more copy...
To this day, my one real regret is that he never hired a lawyer... Or filed a lawsuit...
As for the press: Where do you think all those bullies went after High School?
My suggestion: Talk to the press. But preserve your anonymity. Don't let them use your face or name. Or perhaps even your voice. That way, when they get the story all wrong, and they will, at least YOU have some protection.
Be careful young folks (Score:3)
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:3)
Likewise in high school, I ended up having to suck the stuff up and take it. This whole discussion with so many coming forward with their experiences has been unexpectedly theraputic.
It is very true the persecution was experienced by a variety of people- the strongest/most aggressive/"best socialized" on top. I wonder how/if this could be changed as it seems intrinsic in the structure of the schools. Maybe its a consequence of the individual school's administration- good administrators, good teachers wouldn't put up with this crap- but PHB school admins are another story. Frankly, how could you trust any Principal to stop people abusing you, when you've been brought up to fear talking to him/her. Sure, "their door is always open", and "they just want to be your friend"- but how can that trust exist when they have such power (some real, some imagined) over you? Even if they do something, and stop some jock from punching you in the stomach whenever you walk past- why then, he and his buddies have a reason to torture you.
The media coverage on this issue has been nauseating- they resemble a bunch of vultures feeding on the corpses. "Gee, why don't you poor kids give us a group hug so we can put it on the front page." This can only increase their irrelvance.
I hope there are enough media people with a concience and some particle of integrity to push some of the other aspects of this story.
Gregm
A rant (Score:3)
I am a Cuban-American, which is a nice way of saying I'm an American Citizen who doesn't identify with being American. I learned to spean Spanish first, and I never properly adapeted to being American. My formative years are very confused and very blurry, I think I remember being intelligent, but I was always getting into trouble with authority figures, wheter by calling them names, or having this need to make them feel stupid. I distinctly recall various events leading up suspension, and many, many, many frantic calls by tortured school administrators to my parents because I was "difficult" I was never evaluated or tested for any type of learning disability so I don't know... Maybe that's part of it.
High school was, difficult. If you've seen "Something about Mary". You know her retarded brother Warren? That's what it felt like to be me. I cried for a month after reading Ordinary People, because I thought that suicide was the best way to go. I didn't want to live, and I knew nothing was worth it. I never got around to actually killing myself primarily because I couldn't find a graphic enough way. I wanted something with explosions, that were guaranteed to work. None of this choking to death or shooting myself nonsense. I wanted something dramatic...sensational.
I'm fat, that describes me. High school was a fat person's hell. I mean, I wasn't Jabba The Hutt, but I was close. I was at least 60 pounds overweight throughout high school. The football people loved it. I was perfect to beat up in the locker room. I played for a single season, I did a lot of tackles, and I suffered through 2 weeks of football camp. I would always be last place in the running times, last place in number of tackles, and last place in anything. I ended up crying to the head coach, and I don't remember much more. I was curled up under the covers afraid to come out at that dreadful place. At the end of all that, 3 months later. I was barely able to keep up with the slowest runners on the team. And I got very good at accepting physical abuse. Fist fights in the locker room, headbutting lockers, that was easy. It was easier than dealing with reality.
Anyhow, that didn't last long. I had already discovered girls, and oh, great was my woe. I was under this mistaken impression that girls would like someone who was fat, if they were good at football. People on the team even told me as much. Anyhow, freshman year came and went without a single date, or even anyone I could even ask out. I pined for what I thought was the promised life with some girl, somewhere. It never happened. To this day, I still pine for Karen Ficken.
I did a lot of shop-lifting that summer. I stole every single Science Fiction book out of Waldenbooks near me. Whole bookshelves worth. I got caught by Mall Security near August, and they let me go with a warning. I at least had a friend, in Marilyn, a grammar school classmate who was somewhat antisocial, and we viewed this as our escape. She was a friend, and romanticism never blossmed. A couple of weeks after school started in September, she disappeared to Florida. Supposedly to be with her Lesbian lover, Tara.
I got a job, working in some Dental Office somewhere. Part time, after school. I sould suffer through the humillation in the hallways, and being a social outcast and I thought that if I had money, "chicks" would dig me. Never happened. I don't remember much besides setting up a BBS (you know, a Bulletin Board System), those quaint things that people did back then. I was rude, and obxnoious, and had a lot of other rude, online friends, who thought the same way. We did the usual pranks, lit up pentragrams in gasolines in school parking lots. That type of thing. I lost touch with all of them later on. I never knew what happened to any of them, I guess it was better this way. At least they couldn't pin down anything on me.
A couple of months went by, BBSing day in and day out. Never going out on weekends. I mean, sure, there was the occasional attempt to go to a dance, and try to talk to someone, and get laughed at or something. But I always went back to it.
Anyway, Sophmore year ended, and I worked in a factory over the summer. That was fun. I got yelled at, and beat up in the parking lot by these big black guys because I was making them look bad. I would hide in the rolls of shelves, and take naps in the scaffolding of a 3 story building. Hiding 20 feet above the ground seems to make you invisible.
That summer, I hacked my way into some local college, and discovered Usenet. Whoa, and IRC-ii. On what was to become EFnet's #bondage, I discovered many friends. Inanna, Kiran, Justice(JRJ), Crimson, Elf, Akasha, (I know I have my times mixed up here, because I was on for a while). I can barely remember the names of them all. People I talked to, almost daily. They were more real to me, than life itself. Their stories, their history, I lived my life through alt.sex.bondage. Downloading the newest story was the highlight of my week. Reading something new was, more important than any political story, or news article. Truth be told? I did an awful lot of sexual self-discovery through the wonders of alt.sex.binaries.erotica. I remember lots of fights, and people fighting about one of the bots on channel. Something about the "Great Banning of the Five". Who the five were? I only remember Inanna. I remember her being very high-strung, temperamental, and passionate about people she liked and cared about. She didn't really talk to me that much, and I tried to stay out of her way. I guess with practice, being meek comes easy. So does impersonating someone's email address. Live a lie, long enough, and you become the lie. Days, Weeks, months passed.
Junior year came and went. People did drugs in school, Mesc, and Pot, were the drugs of choice. I became known as the piss-drinker. I mean, sure it was diluted and all, but the reptutation persisted. People would point at me, and laugh. It doesn't matter where I would sit, people would just laugh. I discovered smoking, and booze. Soon, every day was a good day to drink. Sure, go to class bombed? Fun fun fun! I mean, sure I was still on IRC, but...well... I thought I was cool.
The year came and went, I didn't bother anymore. I read, and I was online. Meeting real physical people was a pretty big waste. I had a senior prom. I drank 2 liters of Absolut. I puked all over someone else's limo. I had to have a friend fix me up with someone, because obese old me, couldn't get a date if the future of humanity depended on it. I remember being so happy to graduate.
Ah, but then the story takes a morbid twist. I applied to school after school. My acceptance letters all came late. A college in Tennessee, and 2 local schools. Not a single school I wanted to go to, replied. I found out later, that my parents simply didn't mail checks with all the forms. They figured spending $50 for UCLA was pointless. I mean, sure, we can't afford it, so why bother.
I ended up going to a state school. I met Jenifer, there. She was a nice girl from Conn, we talked a lot. I tried to hit on her endlessly. To no avail. I don't know. Maybe there was a reason for it. I ended up meeting a Matthew-Sweet lookalike, who I hung with a bit. He was uh, great with ladies, and I was terribly jealous of his skill. He had dates, and was always going places. Me, I'd try to join a club, and be too timid to even apply. No, my nights were spent to a higher passion, reading stupid computer books, and figuring out how to play games. A few months later, I discovered I could lie, and stay home and be online all day and never go to class. I was able to do it for almost 2 years. Wow, I did a lot, and talked to a lot of people. None of them probably remember me anyway, so it's probably a blessing. Thankfully Deja News has none of my work archived (Whew). That would be really embarassing.
Around the same time, I started to hang out with my Sister's boyfriend a lot. He treated me like a brother. He showed me how to drink, how to smoke. I don't know, for a while there...*Gasp* I might have almost been cool. I had friends, places to go on weekends. It was probably the happiest time of my life. I did pot, I did coke. I went nightclubbing. I even bounced for a while. I vowed to make everyone in high school pay for the crimes they committed against me. My war against humanity was in full force. I vowed to see them drop, man, woman and child bow before me, as I sliced their throats. Death, Happiness, and rage filled my days. Liquor, and carnal pursits my nights. I worked in a go-go bar. I pitifully flirted with the dancers, while I secretly plotted their demise.
Anyhow, my sister broke up with him, on August 9, 2 days before my birthday. I ended up crashing my car after driving 65mph in city limits, and I nearly killed some other drunk driver. I was able to remain friends with him for nearly another year. I can remember after that, how the doors would come crashing down, and people wouldn't return my calls. I sank into a pit of misery and depression. Too apatehetic to take over the world, too lazy to even clean my room. I wallowed. I was kicked out of college for having a
I ended up meeting my first girlfriend. She was, a lot of things to me. She was white, she drank a lot. We faught a lot. I had sex. I used her for sex at first, and came to lover her after time. I tied her up. I got to do all the kinky things that festered within me for 20 long years. I abused her, I poured hot wax on her. I spanked her, I gagged her. I beat her, and I liked it. I enjoyed causing pain on her, and the fact that she liked it too, was kinda cool. Slowly, I started to come out of my shell, but I never became the person I wanted to be. I stayed with her because I was afraid, and I loved her. Afraid of being alone again, and Afraid of never finding someone else like that.
We grew, she moved. I changed her. I became a hardcore shoe fetishist. Money was no object for shoes. I downloaded pornography all day long. Gigabytes of it. Entire collections of buxom-beauties. 20, 30, 40 years old. It didn't matter. I tried to fill the hole in my heart with empty pictures of long dead women. Betty, Eva, and Whitney were close to me.
I changed jobs, and we stayed together. I discovered new torments, and Armbinders, and ball gags, and spreader bars, and everything else. New things waiting to be discovered. But the closer we became, the more she complained about how I felt empty. That I didn't romance her, that I didn't feel like I loved her. And it's difficult to feel like you can love someone when you can't even accept yourself. We faught a lot, nearly constantly. I hated a lot of what she did, she loved me through and through.
I changed jobs again, and got a job working for a major telco with a substantial salary. Technically my skills were without peer. Professionally? My attitude sucked. I couldn't get anything done that involved any sort of people skills. I lavished her with expensive gifts, and shoes. At one point her shoe collection was over 200 pairs. I brought shoes weekly. I lusted after them. I would follow women around, and ask where they brought them. I would buy any magazine that even showed a pair I hadn't seen before.
But through it all, we stayed together. Now, she went to the same community college I went to, and things went downhill. We never saw each other. I'm feel like I'm being dumped, but she explained that I needed the time to find myself. She didn't want to waste anymore time with me, if I was so fucked in the head.
I'm angry and I'm sad. I'm crying daily. Just hearing the sound of her voice brings me back to being fifteen. I mope, I'm angry, I'm rude. I'm cursing people on the way to work. I've been picking fights. I haven't yet gone to a cop and tried to get shot, but I think it's coming. She's still there for me, as a friend, but I feel so hurt. I could go on, but I'd rather not break out into a crying plea for her to take me back.
I need help. I need I don't know. Everything. The chance to erase my life and start over. I need therapy, and maybe more. I don't know. Drugs, Prozac, Thorazine, and maybe Ritalin. I don't know. I'm angry about everything, but I know that I don't fix myself, I'm going to die. Either Die a lonely and bitter man in 70 years, or I'll die in a brilliantly spectacular death somewhere on a highway somewhere.
I'm kinda lost on therapy. I know I can't afford it, but I can get it through my insurance. I'm posting a list of all the people on my plan. Hopefully someone who's scene aware can read it, and tell me if any of these quacks can help me. I understand that I'm a deviant, but I'd like to be able to go to someone, who can understand that I'm kinky. I don't know. I want to be normal, but I want to be kinky. I want to be skinny, and not fat. And while I'm working on the fat, I can't let my soul rot. I can't go online like this, and I'm turning to the one audience that helped me before in my time of need. I really don't know what else there is to say, except Thank You.
anonymous_loser@yahoo.com
Anyone else not hate High School? (Score:1)
about enjoying high school as much as I did. Is
there anyone else out there who doesn't think that
high school caused them life-long psychological
damage?
Sure, I was a geek. Sure, I was in the outcast
group (outcast group; is that an oxymoron?). Hell,
based on the outwear choices of most of my friends
in high school, I'll even say I was in the "trench
coat mafia" of my school.
Hell, we even experimented with explosives (with
full cooperation of our chemistry teacher, who
launched the Friday Afternoon Blow-Up Club for
us). I mean, at times HS was petty, and at times I
definately felt misunderstood or bullied by my
peer or adults, but the happy memories are in the
overwhelming majority: hanging out with my
compadres at Denny's late nights, bowling,
parties, cheap theatre movies, sneaking off campus
for lunch, fooling around while the girlfriend's
parents were away for a few hours...
I'm not sure, then, why I had a blast in high /. lately, I should have felt like a
school. Based on everything I've been
reading on
disaffected loner.
Can anyone back me up? Did anyone else have a good
time in high school?
----
At a University (Score:1)
school anymore, and suggest this response:
"Please don't speak to me."
That's the one thing I really love about college
over high school: you have rights. Nobody can
force you to do anything, and if they try to (say
they're a prof and therefore have some power
over you), you can always go to the Dean and
threaten a lawsuit. Watch 'em scurry for cover.
----
Re:Take a look outside to learn what may be wrong (Score:1)
Re: TIME (Score:1)
Thanks for these links. This may be the first decent coverage TIME has given a major news story in years. I'm sure the concept that movies, video games, and goth culture don't necessarily lead to murder will be foreign to the TV news networks, but at least one news outlet in a position to influence people is saying it.
Of course, since they're a Time-Warner publication, I'm sure they'll be accused of "protecting their own interests" by some fundamentalist wankers, but hey, ain't that America?
-David
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
>>The average income in Germany is higher than in the USA.
Before taxes or after?
>>The TV, the telephone, the light bulb, the computer, the web and the Linux kernel were all developed in Europe.
TV, was inventd by a man named Philo Farnsworth, he was an American farmer.
Bell was obviously an American, as was Edison.
Early computers were just an evolution of a chinese invention. Perhaps http was developed in europe, but the internet (arpanet at the time) was invented right here in the US.
Even though Linus was in europe, he got help from people all over the world.
>>Not to forget the 20 Million Soviet soldiers that left their life during WWII. You're a little bit US-centric, you even say "Americans" and mean US citizens.
The soviets did contribute much ot the war effort, But who stormed the beach at Normandy? I use the term Americans, because they's how we refer to ourselves. I call myself an American, not a United States of American.
LK
Calculus... (Score:1)
It's not that much of a miracle, at least in Austria (and I think in other European countries too) calculus is part of the curriculum during normal math courses for the last 2-3 years of highschool... go figure
Stasis (Score:1)
>>Guns aren't the problem; they're but one of dozens of symptoms.
People are the problem, we are imperfect and we will always be. The tools we use to express that imperfection are irrelevent.
>>"The sun never sets on the British Empire"; it does now. The Merkin Empire will be one for the coroners, too; attitudes like your will only hasten the day of the autopsy.
It was attitudes like mine that quickened the erosion of the British Empire, It was attitudes like mine that helped the Roman Empire to end.
The survival of my country means little, it is the survival of my culture which is important.
Every empire, every civilization faces it's decline one day.
On the other side of the pond, many countries have gone through various deaths and rebirths over the past few thousand years. It is of no consequence if the king (metaphor) survives, it is only important if the culture survives, people can, have, do, and will rebuild when all that they have known is destroyed.
Nonetheless, that's merely an academic arguement. Neither you, nor I will live to see the fall of the USA.
LK
Re:Thanks Jon (Score:1)
I'm 49 years old and teach math at a middle school in New Jersey.
I grew up in the Bronx with all the emotional and physical pain that could be bestowed upon an "outcast".
I know what it's like to go to school with that raw feeling in your stomach and wonder how you're going to have to defend yourself that day.
I am now especially sensitive to my students who don't fit into the "mold" and suffer because of it. I have zero tolerance for kids who pick on other kids and tell my students that they have a right to come to school without having to fear being bullied.
Unfortunately, I have noticed that some of my colleagues are not as sensitive and are not paying closer attention. Kids are coming to school worried about being bullied and some of us adults are turning a deaf ear.
Students must be able to demand that school personnel look out for their safety and stop bullying in its tracks. Smarts and talent need to be the number one asset in school; not sports, physical attributes, and popularity. Teachers and adminstrators can help.
To my principal's credit, we have an honors day program at the end of each marking period. Honor roll and principal list students are recognized and parents are welcome to attend. A guest speaker is invited to give a speech on how education helped them become successful.
However, we still have a long way to go.
The two boys from Littleton had every right to feel abused, had a right to hate those who were abusing them. Trouble was-they went to the next level and acted on their feelings.
Members of society paid the ultimate price and so did the boys. What a shame.
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
>>Check your facts. TV was invented by Manfred von Ardenne and first presented to the world on the Funkausstellung 1931 in Berlin. See here.
Check Yours.
http://eagle2.online.discovery.com/stories/dead
>>Did I mention who invented the car?
This I concede. However I never disputed it.
LK
Explain this one Mr. Facist! (Score:1)
Today on TV I saw that there was another school shooting...In CANADA! Now explain to me how in Canada, a country with "Sane" and "Sensible" gun control laws.
Things that make you go "hmmmmmmmmmmm?"
LK
Re:Wrong, Jon (Score:1)
Why don't you stop grasping at straws and get the real fucking issue for once.
Enlighten us. What is the real fucking issue that he's not getting? It may help.
Re:Ways to avoid torment in public schools (Score:1)
Re:Ways to avoid torment in public schools
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday April 28, @02:03PM EDT
Anonymous Coward writes:
"So if there are any school administrators or teachers reading this, I suggest you look to your conciences- please try to prevent this kind of thing from happening."
Having had a miserable school life and having had to defend myself physically time and again during junior high and early high school, I make it a point to have zero tolerance for bullying. I teach middle school in Northern NJ.
I also make it clear to the victims that this is their school as much as it is the bully's and they have a right to come here and enjoy the experience. Anyone who interferes with that will be dealt with.
There is no reason why a student should have to come to school with that "raw" feeling in his stomach as he contemplates a day filled with terror.
The trouble is that you are right about many administrators and teachers ignoring the rights of the students they are supposed to serve. A part of a teacher's responsiblity, in my opinion, is to be a role model - and accept each student for who she is. Inherent in this is that each student has a right to be and no one has the right to impinge on their rights.
Re:Take a look outside to learn what may be wrong (Score:1)
I agree with quax. Here in Venezuela going through high school wasn't that bad, even for geeks. Geeks were at least respected, even the socially disfunctional. I can't remember of a single story of a geek been beaten by jocks. And I was the only boy with long hair on a school of 1500 kids.
This whole thing is somewhat related to this tale about the geeks who moved from Idaho to Chicago, posted on
Re:Ok (Score:1)
>>But when there's a will, there's a way...
By George, I think you've got it.
LK
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
>>Do you think we Canadians and Europeans are here simply to talk down to you and cut the U.S. down a few notches?
I don't care what your intent is, but what the result will be.
>>Are we jealous of your rate of crime?
Are we jeleous of your history of violence?
>>Of your lack of health care?
Or your lack of quality in health care.
>>Of your lack of any gun control whatsoever?
Umm, excuse me? We get sweeping new gun control measures every time some nut runs amok with a firearm. It's kind of funny how the crime rate has gone up after every increase in gun control.
>>Of your exorbitant military spending?
Europeans don't seem to unhappy about it when our military is sent to save their arses.
>>I couldn't believe my eyes the other day when Clinton proposed that gun sales be restriced to ONE PER MONTH! One per month?!?!? That's a restriction*?!? Why would anyone need MORE guns, let alone one??
Why is it any of your business? I'm a gun collector, I've bought two guns in one week. Hell once even in the same day.
Clinton is a socialist at heart, and he too is a self loathing american.
>>We all live on the same planet here and we have to work together to ensure a sustainable future... it's time you began to think about the bigger picture rather than simply about the good ol' U.S. of A.
I don't care about how you choose to live on the other side of the pond. I'm not a "citizen of the planet earth", I'm an American. My country is more important to me than any other, or every other for that matter.
LK
Re:Myths... (Score:1)
>>People are absolutely NOT the problem.
Of course they are, every crime that is committed, is committed by a person. Ever murder that occurs is at the hand of a person.
>>Technology is NOT neutral.
Sure it is. Technology is, by definition, tha application of science. Science, just like the derivitive technology, is neutral.
>>Speaking as an engineering student (a future creator of technology), technology is designed and created for specific purposes, with specific intents, for use within a specific culture.
Not at all, quite often science leads to technology which exists for no other reason than to prove that it could be done. The laser existed for years before there was a practical use for the technology.
By your logic, computers are to blame when some cracker takes down a corporate or government network. After all if s/he didn't have the computer, s/he couldn't have done it, right?
>>Sure, you can use a gun to hammer nails, to knead dough, to unclog pipes... but realistically, for each of those uses a gun is not the optimal tool. Therefore a gun will ultimately be used for its optimal purpose: to kill.
Guns are designed to expel projectiles in a relatively straight path. What they are used for after that point is determined exclusively by people. Many guns were intended to woulnd rather than kill. Why do you think that international law prohibits the use of soft point, or hollow point ammunition in war zones?
>>So when you permit widespread ownership of such weapons, no matter how responsible the owner, sooner or later you will have deaths--intentionally or unintentionally. Whether you like it or not.
The same is true of automobiles, swimming pools, cutlery, alcohol, tobacco, rope, chains, plumbing supplies, insecticides, and virtually every other consumer product.
LK
Re:Who gives the most to the UN? Not the U.S.... (Score:1)
>>Who gives the most to the UN?
Obviously not the U.S.
Perhaps I should have worded it to say "Who has given the most money to the UN?
We get nothing back for the money we spend, except a bunch of foreigners who think that they have the right to dictate to us how we run our country.
We should stop paying the UN, we should pull out entirely. The UN has too much power, the UN should NOT have the ability to send military forces anywhere. Economic sanctions of member nations should be the only tool at the UN's disposal.
As for the "right-wing extremists", somebody puts a little too much faith in what they see on TV.
Anyone right of center is an extremist in the eyes of many media moguls.
Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice.
-Barry Goldwater
LK
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
>>So I am European. Do I want to take your guns away? Hell, no. If you want to collect guns that's cool, whatever works for you.
Cool attitude, I can deal with that.
>>The people who worry and who I assume worry you, are your fellow Americans who don't trust you to handle your guns and think there should be something like gun control.
The people who worry me are Americans who feel that we'd be safer if we'd disarm. The past century in Europe is enough proof for me that this is not true.
>>That's a bummer, because from what you wrote I am sure you are a very mature, stable and likable character.
I like to think so.
>>What I don't understand is why the NRA is not lobbying for a "gun control" that gives the current gun owners control. Instead they appear of being permanently in the defensive.
The NRA supports measures that will actually reduce crime. Gun Control does not. Since 1968 the murder rate in the US has gone up, even though there are thousands more gun laws on the books.
>>In my country you can buy all sorts of guns for sport and hunting, and you can keep them at home with ammunition. As you were pointing out Europe's history is violent, so there are a lot of traditional sport shooting clubs. The guys in these clubs make sure no psychos are admitted and register the guns. So everybody's happy: The guys who want to have guns and the rest who know that somebody is accountable for keeping track of them.
In this country, the right to own guns isn't predicated upon hunting, or sporting uses. We oppose federal registration because it can only be used as a tool for confiscation in the future. It was done that way in Nazi occupied europe, and it was done in US cities where gun posession was outlawed. We may not all be geniuses, but we're not stupid enough to fall for the same trick again.
LK
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
>>So why letting any government organization handling this kind of data? It's just an idea, but why doesn't the NRA keep track of guns on a voluntary basis? The NRA could put the data in a thouroughly encrypted database at a secret location. Then if the FBI looks for a weapon used in a crime the NRA can check if such a weapon is reported as missing. This way the NRA could demonstrate its commitment to fight gun abuse and limite the FBI's obsession to control your personal data by sending a strong signal that responsible citicens can handle this themselves.
Several reasons.
1. The NRA is not a government institution, they have no authority to keep such records.
2. Even if the NRA could be used in that fashion, who's to say that 15 years from now the group will not be taken over by anti-gun activists who just want to see it destroyed?
What many people don't understand is this, with our current system a firearm can be tracked to it's legal owner, but the process takes longer than 5 minutes. The people who push for federal registration do this because of how easy it would be to compile a list, so that they can later be confiscated.
LK
Re:Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing America (Score:1)
>>Like it or not, you ARE a citizen of the planet earth.
No, I'm not. I have never taken an oath to uphold the UN charter. I have however done so for the US constitution.
>>We are on the verge of a new millennium and you're babbling about evil socialists and how your guns will be taken away.
Socialism is evil. It takes away the desire to achieve, because if you do you'll be punished for it and those who don't will be rewarded.
>>Best you go back into your nuclear bomb shelter and worry about the black helicopters flying overhead.
I don't know about you, but black unmarked helicopers flying over my house at night and the sounds of machine gun fire.
But then again, I guess you wouldn't know.
LK
Europeans, Canadians, and self loathing Americans (Score:2)
I believe that the reason we've got people attempting to use the recent tragedy in Colorado to disarm the American populace is multifaceted.
One of which is that the Europeans and Canadians are jelous of the freedom and prosperity that we have in the USA. As I'm sure most of us have experienced, it's like when you get a roomfull of your classmates angry at you for "ruining the grading curve".
I believe that the Europeans carry a cultural bias against us because many of the early immagrants to this land were ejected from european nations. Now we have the most powerful nation on the planet. Like when the geek who get's picked on by Johnny Football hero grows up to invent something that cost more than Johnny's gas pumping job will allow him to afford.
Self loathing among Americans is once again on the rise. There are some in our midst who feel guilt at the great advances we've made. They have been seduced by the hope of being glamorous like the eurotrash imagery that they are fed in the tabloids and from hollywood. In order to purge themselves of that guilt they concentrate on the negative aspects of our country. We've got x nmber of homeless...We had y number of murders last year...Only z of us could afford health insurance last year.
They convienently leave out that x*230 have homes. That y*5000 are living in relative safety.
Guns are made the target because our attitude towards them is unique in the world. In this country the PEOPLE have the power to determine their own destiny. We can't be forceable quieted by the government if we say something too unpopular. Or if we tell a secret that the government doesn't want out. Or if we refuse to have the conditions of our lives dictated to us. A few individuals among us have been silenced, but there are many more carrying on the work.
The fact that Kevin Harris shot and killed William Degan and was later AQUITTED of murder charges because Agent Degan was involved in an illegal operation is proof that the system we have in place can and does work.
People all over the world bash the US, but they're more than happy to take our aid in the form of money from the international monetary fund or the world bank. Who gives the most to the UN? We do.
The US has enough gun laws on the books right now (actually we have too many). If law enforcement was allowed to enforce them properly we wouldn't need any more. Bill Clinton claims that the brady Act stopped the sale of over 250,000 guns to people who were prohibited from owning them. If that's te case why have there not been 250,000 prosecutions for attempting ti illegally obtain a gun? Why because it's a sham, it's a lie. They want to change the way we think about firearms. They've even thrown out the Red Herring of "sporting arms". The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with sporting. Not target shooting, not duck hunting, not necessarily even home defense. The words of the men who wrote the constitution confirm this.
Before you atttempt to make us into potential victims like yourselves, just keep in mind the last time your "safe" european countries were in trouble, it was a bunch of tobacco smoking, gun toting Americans who bailed you out.
Guns availability is not the issue, remember Dunblane Scotland? No matter how tight your controls are, there will always be nutcases who go berzerk and attack innocent people.
After all, in the 1930's-1940's Germany had nice restrictive laws related to guns.
http://www.jpfo.org/L-laws.htm
Sorry for the rant, but I've grown weary of outsiders and know-notings telling us how to run our country.
LK
It's a Usenet thing. (Score:1)
Decline and Fall: Kano's piece of the action (Score:1)
--
Culture? (Score:1)
--
Re: Who gives the most to the UN? Not the U.S.... (Score:1)
Clinton doesn't care all that much about paying it either; he'd rather pander to the voters who put the "right-wing extremist congress" in office -- many of those voters seem to be convinced that the UN is some commie, anti-American, one-world-government conspiracy that only "liberals" (a pejorative word in US politics) would be willing to support. American politicians are generally afraid to bite the hand that feed$ them, and afraid to upbraid their clueless electorates (the last president to try real candor was Jimmy Carter; he got voted out of office). That makes them little better than entertainers.
--
Oh, come on! (Score:1)
This is absolute bullshit! The only one this applies to, off the top of my head, would be Ted Turner. Rupert Murdoch is the archetype and apotheosis of modern media moguls -- not only are they right of center, they actively promote right-wing causes with their dollars, airtime, and column-inches, far more than the moguls of previous eras. Bill Paley is long gone, and the myth of the "liberal media" should have died about 20 years ago. Even Pat Buchanan admits to being tongue-in-cheek when he uses such a phrase. You are so force-fed and out-of-touch that you probably didn't even know that your beloved Barry Goldwater was pro-choice and a supporter of Planned Parenthood. Were you born yesterday?
--
Media attention is for only a few (Score:1)
The TVs love to interview someone crying. It looks so good. IF there are any good actors out there, who also have put a coheirant sentance togather (I'm neither) please do take the media attention. But if you cannot advance the geek cause, stay out of the spotlight.
Remember those ice skaters are few years back, one tried to take the other out (tynia Harding? and Nacny Carriagan?) the media people I know/trust tried to have sympathy for the one who was hit, but she eventially earned the title of dope because she chouldn't say anything useful to the media. If you can't carry on an intelligant coversation under pressure (I can't) plase stay away.
So if you can advance the geek cause, please change the world. The rest of us support you, and will try to stay out of the way.
Here here! (Score:1)
blaming jocks for geeks' troubles, than
there is about blaming geeks for society's
problems.
For that matter, you just can group people
together like that. It can only lead to problems.
-Suydam
hmm.. help me out here... (Score:1)
"If we are what we eat, then the only real humans are cannibals."
Sorry.. just had to take issue with this. How would the cannibals be real humans if the humans they are eating are not cannibals(and therefore not real humans)? Just curious :)
Re:Guns don't kill people (Score:1)
Well, I finally managed to login. You might remember me from such posts as the two or three long replies I made to your earlier posts here. Anyway, at least we agree on something here. I've heard the stuff about Switzerland before. It's not much of an argument given the laws in that country. I've also never seen any statistics like the ones he mentions about Britain. You're also correct that there are a lot more factors involved in these violence statistics than availability of guns.
Re:Interview the wrong people? (Score:1)
Re:Myths... (Score:1)
Read Calvin and Hobbes (Score:1)
--Phil (That's all. i already poured my heart out in the previous articles.)
Re:Media attention is for only a few (Score:1)
uhm, no? (Score:1)
In conclusion, I'd like to say that it's BS if you think it should be part of growing up. NO KID should have to be picked on, in no way does it make you stronger inside and anyone who disagrees never had it really bad. It's not just because kids feel outcast that they act cruel, there are probably a lot more reasons varying from bully to bully. Some have violent parents or have been molested in the past, others might have a short temper and are unable to control their emotions. Then there are the kids who act like they're playing along so they don't suffer the same treatment, even though they don't feel right about it.
Re:hypocritical media (Score:1)
What are you talking about? Bicycles don't kill people! People kill people! Besides, the bicycles these kids used were already illegal!
hmm, where are your gun-laws now, Canada? (Score:1)
Re:Of geeks and guns (Score:1)
Re:Something is very wrong here (Score:1)
Then we had this local guy get arrested for parole violation this week, and found out that he'd been responsible for the disappearance of two local college girls. (they found the bodies). No escape, even in remote, rural California.
Re:hmm, where are your gun-laws now, Canada? (Score:1)
using a poor, dead schoolkid in Canada to promote gun-freedom is no more sick than using 15 poor, dead schoolkids in America to promote gun control.
-'nuff said?
Flogger: Hey, horse! Had enough yet?
Horse: I'm not dead yet!
Flogger: (beats horse)
Re:You know what gets me? (Score:1)
I say this with the big mouth smartass tone that got me in trouble with the jocks a lot:
If Bullies are outlawed, then only outlaws will be Bullies.
But seriously, I don't think that a simple BAN on bullying will fix this problem. The bullying will simply be driven underground, and more subtle means used. (when you were tripped, were you able to get the kid arrested - did you have any PROOF that that kid tripped you? or were you just clumsy?).
See what I mean? But there definately should be some kind of culpability for teachers who look the other way, side with the pops reflexively, or even just ignore the weirdos in favor of the pops. IMHO, we also need to separate sports from education. My son goes to a grade school that has no sports outside of gym class. If he wants to play soccer or baseball, I sign him up for little league. What's so hard about that?
The story a couple days back about the Louisiana school that spent $5 million on a football stadium is exactly the attitude I'm talking about. Jocks per-se aren't bad, it's the fact that they captivate so much attention and glory at the school, that people who aren't jocks become second-class citizens in the eyes of the staff.
And though we've had numerous accounts of this kind of thing here on
Sure, I know, not ALL schools are like that. In fact, I'd bet less than half are all THAT sports crazy, but I'll also bet that the quality of life for the smart kids in those schools is WAY better, and the science labs and libraries much better funded.
So, you dump sports, and then make the geeks king, so who prevents the geeks from wolfpacking the jocks? Responsible staff, and responsible (informed) parents. That's who.
Re:You know what gets me? (Score:1)
Re:Where these killers really geeks? (Score:2)
When I was in HS, my twisted little mind found many ways to retreat from those that caused me pain, including a fascination for guns/bombs/militarism, as well as Paganism. It started with a self-defensive superiority complex, where I convinced myself that I was better than "normal" people, because I was smarter, or a non-conformist, or a free-thinker. Some of that was helpful in establishing an identity in a world that wouldn't let me be normal, and some of that was pretty destructive, but ultimately, I don't know why, I turned back from "the darkness".
I have to also admit, that I teased too. I was prolly about 20% up from the bottom in the social pecking-order at my school, and I'm not proud of it. So I'm having a hard time coming to grips with pain AND guilt. I can't blame the teasees (shooters) because I was teased, and I can't blame the teasers (because I teased), and I sure as hell can't blame music, video games, or guns, because I have at least half a brain. I guess I can turn to "the system" like everyone else, and relate that I too witnessed the institutionalization of the "caste-system" - where teachers favored the popular kids, and ignored the unpopular ones, and in judging conflict, the administrators most often sided with the populars. (in fact, I was almost arrested because some jock stole a kid's walkman, and said he saw ME do it. The thing that saved me was that they searched my person, and my locker and couldn't find the walkman).
Can I empathize with the rational that caused these kids to go berzerk? Yes. I "snapped" at some point, and others describe it here too. Hand-to-hand seems so much more "acceptable" than guns and bombs. It shouldn't have to be, and frankly, I don't know what would have become of me had I not become proficient in HapKiDo, or had I been physically just plain unable to win or at least draw my fights. Not all oppressed kids have enough of a physical stature - possibly the reason why they are being teased. (
Mostly I'm just glad to know that I'm not alone, and that it's damn great to not be in school anymore.
Life is a Bitch.
School is it's son.
Re:Of geeks and guns (Score:1)
I would go so far as to say the Captain of the *team and the Prom Queen are also alienated.
I'm going to turn to my favorite television serial, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (laugh if you want, but this show is more "tuned in" to teen issues than anything else on TV with the possible exception of Dawson's Creek):
The character of Cordelia has a couple of times ranted along the lines of "You think it's easy having everything you do monitored by the social elite for coolness? You wouldn't believe the pressure of having to dress like this everyday or lose my friends..."
Laugh if you think this is funny, but it is very real to a lot of high school students. I may have been out of high school for quite a while, but I am still well acquainted with high schoolers (many of my friends have high school age kids who consider me Uncle Brian and talk about things that are going on in their lives -- believe me they aren't making this stuff up).
Re:Something is very wrong here (Score:1)
It's no wonder kids on rare occasion go off the deep end when they are ostracized at school, many kids have no one at home they can even begin to talk to. Plus you end up carrying around the burden of knowing why one of your friends has a black eye (no, not a fight, he just didn't answer fast enough when his father asked a question)...
Sometimes there are no good choices. That doesn't excuse making bad choices, but what's a barely experienced 17 year old going to do?
I wish I had an answer.
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:1)
I've been there too. I didn't realize how hardened I had become until about a week ago, when a very good friend cared enough to yell and coax and plead and accuse me enough until I found it.
Thanks for sharing. This whole affair is making a lot of us think about ourselves and how much many out there are like us.
Re:Guns don't kill people (Score:1)
Not your fault, but... (Score:1)
OK, so you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Guess what? Most people aren't. So, you are just like most. Want another bit of insight? Fifty percent of the population has below average intelligence. I'm willing to bet that you are not a member of that set. So, there you are, actually born with a gift that gives you an advantage over half of the people out there. Use it.
Sure, there are some potholes in your way. You have the choice. Run into them, get stuck and cry, or run into them get stuck and find a way out. Learn to avoid them in the future.
You missed the point... (Score:1)
OTOH, if I hear someone that does know me insulting me, it gives me pause. What did I do to warrant that? This person is my friend. What's gotten them in such a mind that they would want to insult me. Is it my fault, or something else. It still doesn't hurt unless they are probing some wound, or some personality fault that I already know exists. If they are pointing out some failure or fault that I have not recognized, then I am thankful and glad. I will have to work harder to make myself a better person.
Most important! (Score:1)
>4. Keep your own record of the interview and have someone else present (a parent or trusted adult if you are a minor)
When you enter the "interviewing space" have your recorder out in the open and on, even before the interview actually starts. Don't act hostile, just tell them that you are making a recording for your own future reference. Tell them that you are doing research on the mass media or whatever...
Yes, yes, yes (Score:1)
Re:Of geeks and guns (Score:1)
Certainly, if one is different, it is not surprising that some might make cruel comments. If one to be different, they should expect it. The price of individuality is often rejection. Many of us consider that a fair trade.
But, in the vein of "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me," a line has to be drawn between verbal taunts and actual battery.
Even though the perpetrators may not "understand" the consequences of their actions, this does not mean that victims must accept them: as adults we do not imprison the violent mentally ill - we institutionalize them (that such institutions closely resemble prisons in many cases is unfortunate, but at least we distinguish between criminal behavior and mental illness). In any case, we serve to protect the innocent.
A school environment should not be different.
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:1)
If you quote me, please do not do so out of context, or at least use ellipses (...) when truncating a sentence of mine. Thanks.
As for the threats, they're not grounds for divorce. Beside, I'm happy to call her bluff. If I am arrested, she has no means of support and no right to work in the U.S. She makes idle threats all the time.
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:1)
In her defense, I must add that she barely has a high-school education, and some community courses. I suppose I should not be surprised that she is influenced so heavily by the mainstream media.
She usually echos mainstream views for a while after some incident and then settles down.
Occasionally, she realizes that my views are more in-line with reality, but it is a tough slog at times. This is one of those times.
It doesn't help that we're both extremely stubborn in defending our respective views.
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:1)
I suspected as much, though couldn't I be held under "anti-terrorism" laws or some such? (Not that that would be constitutional, IMHO).
Re:Sticks and stones may break my bones... (Score:1)
Unfortunately, it is much more difficult to objectively measure emotional harm, or whether it exists at all, compared to physical abuse.
At least end the physical abuse (that no adult has to tolerate, so why should children?). "Kill the fat rabbit first," as the expression goes.
Then start considering other forms of abuse who's effect is more difficult to detect.
What if we stopped... (Score:1)
For just a day, perhaps. Make it an annual event.
Hmm, "Atlas Shrugged" Day, anyone?
(Atlas Shrugged is a novel by Ayn Rand that explores the question of what would happen if all the people who make the world "work" just stopped, is if the mythical Atlas, holding up the world, shrugged.)
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:2)
My wife has gone so far as to threaten to turn me in for sharing many of the non-mainstream-media views expressed here.
Getting this message out is, however, worth any personal marital hell I may face for my views.
A different meaning. (Score:2)
Ways to avoid torment in public schools (Score:2)
What saved me was getting any jobs I could and getting money for activities and later a car. Money makes it possible to do fun things and people like to join fun activities. When I turned 16, I did my time at Burger King making $100 to $200 a week part time at minimum wage. Had a nice car too. The jocks knew I was working hard and came to respect me. One insisted that I date his sister (unfortunately, I refused as I was dating another at the time.)
The best way to enjoy school is to be a fun person. The person who has the most fun, wins. It helps to have money and squander some of that precious time after school. After all, there is a lot of stress and there needs to be places to go and people to see. We didn't have the internet back then, we had the telephone, CB, cars, public parks, cruising strips, parties, etc. Nowadays, its too easy to find someone to talk to. Back then, we had to really get inventive to meet people.
TIME (Score:4)
After reading the cover of the latest Time [pathfinder.com], The Monsters Next Door, I thought "oh no, more persecution". Imagine my surprise to see a balanced look at the issues:
- The Curse of Cliques [pathfinder.com]
- Page 2 [pathfinder.com] of the cover story goes over the daily treatment received(bottles/rocks thrown at them from moving cars, persecution from jocks and teachers, etc.)
- Coverage of the Goth scene in We're Goths Not Monsters [pathfinder.com]
- Flash: movies don't kill people from Bang, You're Dead [pathfinder.com]
- The computer age may be giving kids a new outlet for their dark fantasies, but that hardly means it is turning them into killers. from Digital Dungeons [pathfinder.com], an article covering software.
I suggest that Time is commended by our community for covering the truth behind the issue.Thanks Jon (Score:5)
For those of you in High School, be careful but vocal. Don't let other students trample over your rights. Physical and mental abuse is something that shouldn't be tolerated in any environment, espically by young people. Hopefully by getting the word out, we can make a change.
United we stand, Divided we fall.
/. in the LA Times. (Score:2)
-mike kania
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:4)
>turn on you for telling them the truth?
It's kind of funny that you mention this. I personally haven't talked about it with my girlfriend (of 4 years), as I'm not really sure what to tell her.
Like a lot of people, I guess I was kind of living in a shell throughout most of my school career. School was hell, but I eventually got out of it.
When I met my gf, I had finally snapped out of it. No, I didn't take on jock-like characteristics by any means, but I learned to be pretty happy with who I am, to accept who I had become, etc. She never knew the 'old' me, really.
From her perspective, I'm just a guy with geekly leanings. I admit it, we both laugh about it from time to time, it's no big deal. She wasn't the most 'popular' kid in her school, but by no means was she a geek. She was well liked and for the most part made it through with no hatred toward her or those like her. I don't think she would understand that part of things.
Sure, she knows I spend WAY too much time in front of a computer, but at least I get paid for it. She knows I prefer reading to a lot of TV, and science fiction impressed me more than the average romatic comedy Hollywood spews out. Yeah, I even used to play RPGs (gasp!) on occasion. No big deal. She loves me anyhow, which is great - but she doesn't know what it was like way back when, either.
Strangely enough, though, after I left high school everything changed. I had slain the worst demons of bad self image, and that was the end of that. Now I'm a 20 year old part time college student with a '96 Eclipse, a beautiful girlfriend, and a job that I enjoy (please don't consider me a yuppie, as I'm not - honest! *grin*). I see these shmucks on a regular basis and realize that they'll never leave this town. In a way, that is the greatest revenge.
To those of geekly leanings still in school - hang in there. Your time will come. You'll "fill out" as a person, become more attractive (even if just in spirit), and learn to live with yourself and even enjoy being who you are. For the time being, find some people outside of high school who can understand you - they're out there. The denizens of Slashdot have real life counterparts, you know. Ride the rough seas of high school and you will eventually be just fine. Trust me.
Anyhow, I now carry on my quest to show my gf the beauty of the geek world. She's taking May 19th off with me (why, you ask?!?), loves video games (mostly RPGs), and is learning HTML as we speak - without a wizzy-wig editor. Much can be said for a 'late bloomer'.
I guess being a geek really is an outward manifestation of the best things humanity can offer. Tolerance. Curiosity. Creativity. Passion. Rest assured, these are not qualities to be ashamed of... Be proud, be safe, and be yourself.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:2)
I don't know what to say my friend. It's been gnawing at me like crazy as well.
My wife sounds a bit geekier than yours (and hey, that adjective is by no means a perjorative, thank you very much). She endured some of this #$%^ in jr. high, but went to a high school where honors classes etc. were actually valued. Did the same problems exist @ her high school? She can't say; either they didn't exist or she was oblivious to them. (She can be brutally honest about people, including herself. That's one of the reasons why I married her.)
There's a reason for her trepidation. Both of us are getting involved in anti-discrimination workshops as of late, and there's one thing that's very peculiar about members of any privileged class (i.e. "normal people", whatever that means). They'll not only deny that a problem exists; they'll be TOTALLY UNAWARE that the system has favored them (or at least never counted against them). No clue, zip, nada, nobody home. Your wife may be completely naive to everything, and it may not necessarily be her fault. (Just as you can be a racist without being a Klansman, if you catch my drift.)
I'd keep at her, though. It's not too much to ask the person you hope to spend the rest of your life with to understand (and to confront?) the issues that are important to you. And that is not too much reading for one day.
Again, take care; I hope she sees the light someday..
-----
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:2)
They are simply incapable of it. Not necessarily
because they lack empathy - though the empathic
ones will at least sense your pain - but because
they so utterly lack any kind of frame of
reference. Virtually all of them were either
part of the "in" crowd, or were the wallpaper,
not popular, but never targetted to the same
extent. From your description, your wife is
very much the former, who will never get it
because she lacks the empathy to realize what
impact she has on others. I suspect that because
it is clear from your post that she is _still_
like that - and I'm sorry to say that I also
suspect your marriage might face some long-term
trouble over such a basic divide. Whether you
can bridge that, I can't tell - but I do think
you very well might have to to have a happy
marriage.
Interview the wrong people? (Score:2)
The main thing about the net sites is that they are full of the people who are being targetted by this wave of anti-geek reporting, so the web sites will have most of the debunking of the stories. Unfortunately, the web sites don't always reach the people we want to speak to; your average Joe Bloggs in the street, who sees the newspaper and TV news stories about how bad these games are for childrens' psyche.
What we need is for someone (or a small group of individuals) to volunteer to appear on some chat show and for the show to accept just to give another view of the story. Unfortunately, I can't see it happening...
--
media circus (Score:2)
There ARE producers/programmes out there that will take on some of these storys because of thier value and truth but I dont think there are many.
Wrong, Jon (Score:2)
"Some of these reporters get it, some don't."
None of them get it, yourself included. Who didn't feel left out in high school. It wasn't just the geeks. Even the 'popular' kids had problems. No one is numb to this.
I'm tired of writers fixating on the geek. Writers like you, Jon, perpetuate the issues. Who really gives a fuck who is a geek and who isn't. Most anyone that you'd call a geek really doesn't even care. It's writers like you and the entire media that create the geek, that breath life into it's lungs, that have given him the dirty label he has.
And then two high school kids go out and try to blow up the school. A place where they felt foreign, unliked, whatever. Violence is never a way to deal with one's problems, I'm not ever going to say that what these kids did was right. But shit, the best you can fucking come up with is that they knew how to use the internet, that they used it to distribute information, and that they enjoyed Quake, Doom, and Duke'Nukem. What the fuck is that supposed to mean?
It means that you have as much a clue as anyone else. And I'm not speaking just to you Jon, you're not the only one to blame here. It's the entire media. Why don't you stop grasping at straws and get the real fucking issue for once.
Making generalizations based upon a video game and internet use stains everyone.
Until we start getting to the real roots of the problems, kids are still going to be the same way they've always been. Violence will be more pervasive. I doubt if we've seen the last of this. Lest we forget, misery loves company.
Be careful what you say and how (Score:5)
I've been interviewd twice - once as a teen by the local paper after I won an award to attend a science honors program at Columbia, and once as an adult regarding a subject area and program I worked on. The local interview was OK, although I didn't like how I was described ("flippant"? - I'd have to ask my parents for the clipping if they've kept it for 30 years!).
The "professional" interview quoted me at length, made me appear to be an authorized spokesman for a government program (I wasn't), and never told me I was being quoted vs. providing general background. After the story ran in an industry newsletter, I was almost fired at our customer's request, which would have permanently ended my employment in that industry! Fortunately, I was able to convince my bosses that I was taken advantage of, and my track record with them backed up my claims. (The "reporter" later called me to ask how I liked the story he had printed! Fortunately, yelling and cursing on a phone call in 1988 was not then a felony)
There is much to be said for annonymity over noteriety. If you DO get "lucky" enough to be interviewed, I'm sure John can offer specific advice; here's my 2 cents:
1. Get the topic and "slant" of the story before agreeing to be interviewed.
2. Make clear what is for quotation and what is not.
3. Present yourself as you want to hear/see/read about yourself.
4. Keep your own record of the interview and have someone else present (a parent or trusted adult if you are a minor).
5. You lose all control over your words the instant the interview ends.
6. The reporter is interested in getting a story and benefiting themselves, not in helping you. This is reality, not cynicism.
7. Be helpful without becoming vulnerable. Some of these people WANT to be educated and will listen to reasonable words.
Good Luck!
Finally got to me. (Score:5)
However, after reading all of the postings and the hellmouth articles it finally started to hit me. Those emotions finally rose up and I can honestly say I shed a few tears. In post after post I found people I could finally relate to and who were feeling what I was/had felt. Call it geek therapy, or whatever, but it was nice to not feel like an outcast.
The part that hurt the most is that my wife and I don't see eye to eye on this issue. She bought into the media hype and fanatacism and not only tries to justify it but defends it too. So I printed out the two articles and some of the comments and took them home for her to read. I really needed her to understand. First of all I had to almost force her to read it, secondly she got only past the first page and a half and said that that was too much reading for her for one day. I felt like saying "What not enough pictures for you?" She promised to read more of it later, but I doubt that she will. That made me feel even worse.
I guess that's what you get when Mr.Geek marries Ms.Popularity.
Anyone have their familiy not get it or actually turn on you for telling them the truth?
********************************************
Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
Something is very wrong here (Score:2)
This is wrong. The amount of media attention given to this is astounding. Every day there are gang wars in cities across the country. Kids in the ghetto are being shot everyday, and they maybe get 30 secs on the news. Nobody seems to care. Just because they are poor, or black, or asian, or mexican, or gay, they don't get the same attention as upper white class kids in Colorado did.
Think about it for a second.
15 teenagers lost their lives to stupidity, yes, this is horribly tragic. But how many kids lose their lives each day to alcohol, gangs, drugs? Why don't we hear about them for days on end?
Stop and think about Bosnia and Serbia. This is going on every day there. Somebody's kid, father, mother, brother is dying. Do we hear about it?
America has it so good, and many here don't even realize it. If you hadn't been born in America, there is a very real chance that you wouldn't be able to post to Slashdot, because you wouldn't have a computer, or the right to post what you thought. In some countries, you can be persecuted (I don't mean just discrimated against either, I'm talking being forced to leave your home, or shot even) for the color of your skin or what religion you follow. Why isn't this on the news for hours upon hours at a time?
I'm tired of day after day of Littleton stories and half-assed reporting. I'm sick of memorial services. Where is the rest of the world? What about them? This is the real tragedy.
Re:Interview the wrong people? (Score:2)
Yes, to some extent all kids go through feelings of alienation, but for some people it's not just a phase- it's a daily torture that goes on for *years* with no way out (until you get out of that school system).
Why is *anyone* surprised about what happened in Littleton? When you pile enough rejection, physical abuse, and demeaning behavior at a person they learn to hate. Some people will internalize that hate, some will work off those emotions in positive ways, and some inevitably will strike back. Because they usually are not physically strong enough to just punch out their tormentors, it shouldn't surprise anyone that these kids will use weapons on hand.
These kids justify their actions as self defense, because they don't see any other way out.
WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THEIR SITUATION and offer them a humane recourse to living with hate. This doesn't mean *just* telling them that killing is wrong. Yes, it is wrong, but it is just as wrong to make these kids live with degradation on a daily basis and naively think that it doesn't cause a great deal of pain. Again, we need to recognize their situation and offer them a way out.
-OT
Re:Finally got to me. (Score:2)
>turn on you for telling them the truth?
Hmmm... I work in a small development group in a HUGE engineering firm.
I have to say that the majority of my co-workers are really good looking people, and I can see they were always this way. They're all old enough to have kids in grade school thru college, but they're still active, healthy and sharp people.
They see this thing the MEDIA way. I tried talking to my manager and others here about this; and they just do not connect. In fact, as soon as I mentioned that the killers were likely driven out of their peer group so hard that they were forced into fighting back, the conversation was pretty much over.
It's sad, since these people are parents of kids dealing with the same stresses as the ones in Colorado. Their kids are too aware of their parents lack of understanding, that they refuse to talk about it. The parents assume the kids have no problems, the kids assume the parents don't get it. The kids are right.
I, myself, am the kid of someone very much like my co-workers. My own parents don't get it either. To them, my past teenage angst was just a part of the psychology of growing up - not a willful reaction to the rejection I felt in High School.
I fear that with time, income and status, I too will cease to understand, or begin to dismiss teenage experiences - just in time to be useless to my own kids. I pray I remember.
The wrong thing to take away (Score:5)
Just like I could say I respect Hitler's leadership abilities without being a Nazi or that I can understand why immigrant Irish workers and sharecroppers hated blacks without being a racist, I can say that I understand what might drive those kids to kill without having a trace of the urge myself. These were not normal people. As many people have pointed out, they were in many ways like us, but they were not us.
Many people here may spend countless hours looking at the pentagrams id shows us, but the vast majority of these people don't worship the devil. These kids, however, had the racist feelings to stand behind their swastikas and the guns to back up those feelings.
As one of the emails to Katz showed, some people think we're defending what was done or saying that it's understandable. It's not. It's the emotion behind the actions that's understandable. I would hate for visitors to Slashdot to think that we all think what was done was somehow justified.
Schools share some of the blame (Score:3)
I don't want to justify their behavior in creating this kind of situation, but I would like to explain some of the their reasoning in all this.
At least in my schools, there were overcrowded classrooms, aged and retiring teachers who just didn't have the energy or youth to deal with us, and and not enough funds to do anything they would have liked. In order to handle and deal with a class, conformity was stressed over performance, individuality, or creativeness. How could a teacher handle 20 wildly independent, unique, creative, inquisitive students? Whether intentional or not, they managed to convey to us the idea of conforming, of not rocking the boat. They were happy and excited whenever one of us showed initiative or intelligence, but they did not actively try to push us towards that goal.
Kids picked up really quick; they became the enforcers of the norm, and if you were different of race, of behavior, of attitude, of anything, they'd target you for this.
This was a school system which actively recruited for GATE students, but didn't have the resources to actually do anything with/for us once we were identified. They actually used us to gain more funding for stuff such as books, repairs, maintanence, etc. They didn't have the training or resources to manage a handful of gifted students, so we were left to our own devices, and then resented for it by all the other children.
This goes on all the way up to high school, in which I finally figured out how to look cool, how to act cool, how to be cool. I also happened to gain a foot in height and 40 pounds of bulk, so I guess people didn't figure I was such an easy target either.
Something does need to be done to change the system. We live in a society that does reward innovative unique and creative people, but the system we use to train and manage the kids tries to destroy and contain these things because they cause too much trouble.
I was talking to my dad about this, and he mentioned that even private schools have this fascist need to maintain conformity, except that they raise the bar and expectations much higher than in our public school. Are there any real solutions available?
AS
Lessons for Football Players and Prom Queens... (Score:2)
" Reading Yesterday's article [slashdot.org] helped me realize how absolutely lucky I was my last two years in H.S. ...in our school it was the "in crowd," e.g. the "snooty rich snobs" who were marginalized. In fact, the easiest way to join the margins wasn't by being different -- it was by trying too hard to be like the "Snobs". They existed in their little world, we existed in ours -- but "we" were 75%
of the student body, including the overwhelming majority of the athletes and 90% of the cheerleaders, valedictorians, etc.
What makes this all the more special in reflection is that I come from a city high school that had 3,000 plus students, with a perhaps 35-40% minority student body. Talking to a few of my friends at a recent class re-union, I was surprised that some of
them never felt like part of the crowd back in school -- until I asked them if they had ever felt left out. Jaws dropped as they realized just how good it had been. The main theme in the follow up conversations I had with them were about normal teen insecurities, something like "you're right, we really did ALL belong. I just wanted to be more like...." (fill in the blank with the appropriate 'popular' person or group)"
O.K., so we were lucky. Big deal, right? No, the big deal is WHY IT WAS THIS WAY.
The difference between my HS and many of the others was that about two dozen young people of all economic backgrounds, colors and popularity levels decided to MAKE A DIFFERENCE by speaking out for friendship, openness, and diversity from the time they were in the ninth grade, then sticking to it. This was in contrast to the going average in the a community -- racially driven riots a couple times of year every other Sr. High school for several years running.
So who were these two dozen or so people? We're talking about folks like the head cheerleader, starting quarterback, middle linebacker, basketball center, student body president, a couple of the more popular members of the choir, a pretty good H.S. rock band and even even the occasional "shy-but-somehow-trying-to- stay-involved" odd ducks like me.
Led by a school administration that taught them that they could make a positive difference and then mentoring them in how to get it done. I find myself wondering if instead of hearing positive values like this, what today's youth are hearing is the echoing and empty sound of silence."
--end of e-mail--
I would be interested in hearing from /. readers, etc. regarding both the pain and the positives so that I can make the information available via the 'Net. Please feel free to respond. [mailto]
Take a look outside to learn what may be wrong (Score:5)
The most scary thing I observe in the mainstream culture is a disdain for intelligence: "Dumb is good!" a slogan I saw in the TV movie "Brave new world" could be almost the banner for mainstream (white) America (may be a little bit different for the black American culture). I talked to a white American psychologist about it (a professor of mine at business school) and he told me he perceives a teen attitude that equates "being smart with being uncool". What a weird culture. In Europe being a university student means to be someone special, somebody with the potential to outstanding intelectual achievment, somebody who favors scientific truth over a big paycheck. Copmpare this to the frat boy as student role model.
I was a geek as kid. And I was an oddball but I had some respect from my peers, because I didn't suck up to the teachers, and I helped them out when I could. I don't know how many geeks had experiences like this in the US. This good geek school experience seems to me rather the rule than the exeption in my country. I hated school just because I wasn't free to do with my time what i wanted.
My fiancée is kind of an American geek girl who went through school by escaping into permanently reading SF. She hated Junior High and High School, and I think it did some severe damage to her. If we have children we don't want them to go through the American non-academic school system.
I try hard to figure out what is going on in this culture and why it is so different from Europe. Since I haven't gone through the US school system I don't know what it is from the inside but it seems to me to be a prime problem of the American society. I am aware that this is certainly no new insight, but it is concerning to see that nothing seems to be done about it. I remember that Bush senior put it on the agenda when he ran for presidency. I know that Steven Jobs, in an interview I once read, was delighted about the idea of organizing public schools privately, but I don't think he had the time to follow up on this.
In Europe it is good common political practice to compare your own national society with other Western countries in order to learn how to improve. That is something completely missing in the US (political) culture. Why invent yourself if you can copy good practices? The open source movement showed that this works for all sorts of matters. Nevertheless the US are just roasting in their own juice. The US society might figure out something the hard way, but it will produce a lot of unhappy American geeks along the way (and some dead students).
You know what gets me? (Score:3)
Oh, there's the occasional article discussing cliques, but they are almost invariably wrapped up by quotes from smug little experts going 'oh, it's all a part of growing up, it's *good* for them'. Here, shall I show you the scar on my head from the time (one among hundreds) that someone tripped me on the way to my seat and I smashed my head against the corner of the desk? Go on, tell me how good it was for me. Or perhaps we'll seat you, Mr. Expert, in a room with 25 other people and have them whisper abuse and throw things at you for an hour a day. Oh, and you can't skip, or we'll arrest you. Go on, tell me how it improves your self esteem.
Fuckers. And they wonder why we feel alienated from the majority.
Laura
Where these killers really geeks? (Score:5)
Over the past few days, people here on
Do you really think that the primary reason for the ostracism of these two kids was because they were especially intelligent or geeky? How many geeks do you know of who are car theives? How many Nazi geeks do you know of? Even if you knew a car-stealing-racist-Nazi-geek, do you think you would be especially compassionate towards them? I try to be compassionate to everyone, but for kids such as these, I don't think I could even muster that. There had been reports of these kids walking down halls yelling "nigger" at any black person they saw. If I was faced with this (I am black), I have little doubt that I would be downright hostile towards them. I was ridiculed for many things back in highschool, but whenever someone insulted me because of my race, I could always count on 99 percent of the rest of the school to stand behind me in my defense. Although the students of Columebine HS probably regret it now, I'll bet that many of them acted similarly.
I seriously doubt that these kids were really geeks. I find it pretty odd that so many of you here consider them as such merely because they played Doom and had a home page on AOL; even my mom has played a few video games and is working on a homepage on AOL -- of course her page isn't likely to be filled with death threats, pentagrams, and/or swasticas. So many people here have objected to the fact that the schools are now (after the killing) "cracking down" on geeks because they think they may have homicidal/suicidal tendencies. I'm sure I don't have to remind any of you here, but geeks tend to have FAR more self resect than that. Despite the ridicule geeks receive daily, most geeks I know carry a huge amount of dignity with them; some are even a little egotistical. As far as I can tell, these killers hated both themselves and everyone around them. A person who is confident in their ability to eventually succeed isn't going to shoot up their schoolmates and kill themselves. If you want the schools (both the administration and other students) to stop scapegoating geeks, you should emphatically remind them that geeks have absolutely NOTHING in common with someone who is capable of amassing a stockpile of weapons, walking into a crowded room, and shooting anyone present.
These two killers have been described by other students as being "freaks." Only the media has tried to portray them as "geeks." Which account do you believe?
Re:Of geeks and guns (Score:2)
Ummm... or not. In high school (which ended last year) I was a crossbreed geek/druggie/hippie type. I don't agree with you that everybody feels alienated,
Of course, I can definately understand how much it would suck to be fat, ugly, acne-covered, whatever, in high school, because I saw these kids get picked on a lot. I made an effort not to pick on these kids (except the ones who I was friends with, I picked on these kids constantly, but they knew I was just kidding around.) If I saw one of the popular kids picking on one of the unpopular kids, I'd try to step in and do something about it. Once one of the most popular members on the football team was harassing a nerdy freshman coming out of the library (I was a junior at this point). I stepped in and told him to leave the kid alone. He assaulted me, and I beat the living PISS out of him. I broke his nose and bruised 3 of his ribs. Once the story got the administration, I was actually PRAISED by my housemaster. (the other kid attacked me so I was able to play it off as self defense.)
To all those people who are geeks in high school and feel unpopular, picked on, whatever, I have advice for you: Don't worry about being popular, don't worry about being accepted. Just do your own thing, let the popular kids know you couldn't give a shit about their opinion of you, and they'll start to respect you. Because the popular kids are really just as insecure as you, but for some reason they are accepted by everybody else. They really wish they could do their own thing and not act like everybody else, but are too chicken to do it, and as a result feel a need to persecute those who have the guts to be independant. I know, I was friends with many of these people in high school, and this is exactly how their minds work. Once you show them that you can stand up to their persecution, they'll stop, and begin to respect you.
"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
The role the Internet has taken in this... (Score:5)
The first week after the Littleton killings, we were blasted with all the standard cut and paste tragedy news in the mainstream media.. All the "the community is coming together" crap that always happens after a tragedy such as shit. But this is different. This really struck a nerve in the geek population, because many of us relate to the killers. As sick as I am sure it makes us all feel, its true. There is a little bit of them in a damn large population of us. We are doing someting about it, as a community, we _have_ come together.
Week one was everyone putting the peices together. I was watching it on several dozen mailling lists I administrate. I was actually waiting for someting along the lines of what was going on there to happen here on Slashdot. It has, and the Slashdot effect in its own little way is taking effect, but not on someone's website today, but alot of people's minds. A place were we are all happy to see the load averages cranking up.
"Thinking about these things can't help but make you smarter." -- Jello B.
It applies, big time. Although, this goes even farther. Jon is right, we should be carful what we ask for. Actually, scratch that. We would be _aware_ of what we ask for, and be ready for it when it comes.
On the Internet (as Jon put it at some point), a story rides is its own merit. This one has some real issues behind it, people are intrested/scarred/concerned/effected.. The action here WILL have an effect. Even if it is just to show some of the people truly effected by this that they are not alone.
As I see it, no matter what happens here, we win. As a community. The role the Internet has teken in this... is good.
...
. "The future masters of technology will have to be lighthearted and
My Take on it All (as a student) (Score:2)
There's a growing trend, as the internet and/or AOL becomes a popular place for kids to hang out, for computers to not just be for the 'geeks' anymore. Although most of these people may not have the same knowledge I have, it's a start. If this someday leads to the geeks being more accepted because of their skills I'm not sure, but it's a start.
How does this all fit into the grand scheme of things? The media will NEVER have it right, I think that's the bottom line. A good example (non computer related though) is that a video rental store opened up in my home town (a fairly small city of 26,000 in New Hampshire) that happened to rent out adult videos. Some people threw a fit over this, and some students from a private school that was right across the street from the store spoke out against it. Not that they cared, but it was worth some extra credit or something along those lines. The teachers all made them do it basicaly, and they said hey what the hell if it gets me on the teachers good side. I am close friends with someone who was a student there while it was going on.
What I'm saying is the media will get some tool student to tell them what they want to hear. Does this mean all media? Of course not, but enough to further mislead all the adults out there. To tell them to lock their kids up in their rooms and not let them use the computer because it's the devil incarnate. I'd love to give the media my point of view but I don't think it would change anything, or at worst they'd twist my words all around.
At one time I thought being a teenager was just a pain in the ass. I couldn't wait to get out of school, but as I look ahead of me I see 2 more years of highschool and 4 of college that I've got to deal with - I just try and take things as they come now. But the bottom line about school is that at least 99.9% of students (and I'm not exadurating, at LEAST that many) don't like school. If you ship someone off to what is basicaly a prison to them for the first 20 years of their lives you're bound to have someone act out, in whatever way they can think of. Sometimes that acting out goes way too far, and thats when we get the Columbine situation. Everyone feels neglected at one point in their life so that's not the issue. Hell if so many people were in this 'Trench Coat Mafia' they had each other to socialize with.
The issue is if we look back in history people longed to go to school. Kids just don't give a damn anymore, once they hit middleschool they think they know everything they need to know. I should know, I thought I knew everything I needed to know and to be honest right now I think I probably know everything I need to know. With 2 more years of English, Science, History, and Math ahead of me that is so usefull all my elders have forgot it already? If everyone forgets their Highschool math courses why are we learning it? I want to do something in computer science as an adult - I know that now - but I have to learn 6 more years of proper etiquet when writing a letter? I have to memorize the periodic table for what? This is the frustration people get with school, the social groups is just the icing on the cake.
Of geeks and guns (Score:5)
So, while geeks seem to be the target of the recent witch-hunt in schools around the country, and we are right to feel indignant, remember that we do NOT corner the market on alienation.
Re:Interview the wrong people? (Score:2)
Well 'jocks' almost certainly don't listen to it, and most of the people listening are over thirty, but... The intelligent people who are often in charge of schools and in positions of influence do. It might not change many minds, but a few here, a few there. You can't win all at once(not that you can't try), you need to take anything you can get.
The sheer mental inertia of our society as a whole precludes any quick change. Look how long it's taken to make racism go from accepted -> tolerated -> social faux pas -> unacceptable. It used to be perfectly acceptable to discriminate against anyone who wasn't white, now the members of the KKK are mostly seen as subhuman scum (Of course it doesn't hurt when their grand [dragon? wizard? what do you call these bozo's?]get's arrested and convicted for raping a 12 year old and a 13 year old).
Any coverage is good, and NPR is much more likely to give balanced intelligent coverage than any of the other organs of the news media. Hmmm if NPR is the brain of news media, what does that make hard copy? The colon? So I guess the point behind all this wind is that don't shoot the reporter until you see the story printed/broadcast.
Re:You missed the point... (Score:2)
Errr, actually no. Words can hurt no matter who says them, it just hurts more when someone you care about/love/respect says them. Why do I say this? Because there's been a lot of psychological research done on these topics. Mainly in regards to how/why brainwashing works, also in studying things like boot camps and cult recruiting. Even if you don't care at all about the other person ,their constant and repeated verbal assaults will change you. If you're constantly told you suck, you're stupid, you're ugly you will have serious mental problems as a result. If you're constantly interrupted, never allowed to respond, it does bad things to the logic circuits in you're brain. There are whole bodies of literature out there on these kinds of things. Granted if you're mentally prepared for these things you'll weather them better.
This is especially true when a large group of people is doing this to you. A concerted action by a large group of people over a longish period of time, like at a cult 'retreat', a boot camp, or a High School. A toxic atmosphere like this is unacceptable at a POW camp, so why do accept it in a HS? Hell if I know... I know I'm planning on running for the school board whenever I settle down.
So sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can also hurt me.
Re:Where these killers really geeks? (Score:2)
The general definition of "geek" is what many of us would call a "dork". It has nothing to do with technical expertise and everything to do with unpopularity and annoyance. While your average Slashdotter will point to Linus Torvalds as the canonical geek, the average American would probably point to "Urkel" or Marty McFly's father (remember Back to the Future?)
I found this out a while back, having dinner with family. I noted that my wife and I are geeks (we are both software types, and meet a lot of the Jargon File profile for hackers). My cousin pipes up and says, "You're not geeks! You're cool!". She thought that we were insulting ourselves.
Nothing I have seen in the media make me think that the killers were "geeks" in the Slashdot sense. I do believe that they were outcasts, and were thus treated much like the average Slashdottian geek.
Frankly, I think that it is even harder to be a "dork" geek than a "hacker" geek in high school. Hacker geeks have structures like Slashdot.
One attribute of the Internet is that you rarely see its denizens, and thus lose some preconcieved notions of them. The evil side of this is that molesters can pose as children, fool other children, and molest them in the real world. The wonderful side of this is that if a minor talks like an adult (IMHO the best test of adulthood out there, and a mutation of the Turing Test), they will be treated like an adult. And being treated like an adult human being is a great preventative from going over the Edge.
In the last three days, I have been nothing short of astounded at the teenage population of Slashdot! I admit to assuming that the population here was almost exclusively 18+; I will never do so again. But unless someone specifically posts about it (as did some netizens discussing their current high school nightmares), I honestly cannot tell who is in their teens, twenties, or thirties here. Maybe I could tell the older ones--few twentysomethings will wax poetic over the PDP or ITS, but I can't tell a teenager from a young adult on this board. Nor do I have to.
Re:A rant (Score:2)
I am willing to be that friend, over email. Talk, and I will listen. Ask, and I will answer. You have my email address above. With the Slashdot board as my witness, I will keep your anonymity sacred. I will not reveal your identity to friends, family, authorities, or other netizens. I am not a cop, and I am not working for a cop.
All I can offer as a guarantee on that is my reputation. I have been on the Net for ten years (yes, before there was a Web) as "remande". While I am certainly not famous, I value my net.reputation. If Slashdot learned that I went back on my word here, that reputation, and likely my career in software, would be shot.
Mr. Anonymous, the door is open.
_Today_, bombs, and clothes (Score:2)
They did not say how many are normal, especially at this time of year. 16 might be a few more than normal, or a few less. Or it might be much more than normal and a reason for concern... or maybe not. An event which was quietly handled two weeks ago, rating no more than a 1" column on page 37A, will now appear as the lead story on page 1.
More to the point that Katz and others have brought up, it's reasonable for the administrators to take strong action when a student possesses a pipe bomb, posts a detailed "hit list", or has written plans for placing a bomb in the school.
But what on earth does the students' choice of clothing material have to do with this? So what if a student wants to wear all black? Or combat boots? Or funny makeup?
(I can accept that banning dusters and trenchcoats might serve a public good... but why strip search a student wearing one? Does the principal expect to find a shotgun stuffed in the student's undergarments?!)
Clearly these events are totally different, yet we've had numerous reports from students of authorities seeing no difference between a tube of eyeliner and a pipe bomb. We know this is insane, apparently a few reporters sniffing for stories know this, but why isn't it in the mainstream press? Do the editors somehow think that a bit of mass panic is good for everyone?
Re:Interview the wrong people? (Score:2)
Re:hypocritical media (Score:2)
In it, I read of one student in the Southeast who was threatened with expulsion for expressing in a guidance class that he could understand why they did it.
Of course, many of us can "understand" why it happened. In my school system I was as much a menace as I was a victim of others' menacing. I knew both sides. Neither produce healthy attitudes about oneself. But the feelings of having hurt other people still linger. Seeing the pain and embarrassment in another's eyes to the satisfation of a few friends is still so revolting that I could again lose sleep over the depths of my evil, the obvious hypocracy of so easily turning my pain into anger and using it against another.
The fact is, there are outcasts within "The Trenchcoat Mafia" who leave school each day feeling rejected by the rejected.
So when the principals in our lives offer threats of expulsion for having a deeper, more rich and human understanding of pain, we must be strong, be wise, and be forgiving. If we hate the principal, the boss, the girlfriend, the guys in the car or row behind us, we perpetuate this desease.
I write this because I read the article and immediately thought about getting back at the ignorant Southeastern principal (I scanned the article for the name of the school so I could give him a piece of my mind); I thought about killing the ignorant South. I thought, "Crash into New York City, bomb the repugnant hypocracy of LA, rid the world of hypocrits and evil, and anger..."
...And then I thought better.
It's as hot as Heater in Hellmouth (Score:2)
I grew up Mennonite. Most of you who have even the faintest idea what that means are probably thinking "horse-drawn buggies and no electricity". Maybe this will clarify: Amish:Mennonite~::~Hassidic:Jewish The main point is this: my family had a slightly different set of values than that of most of the kids I went to school with in suburban Wichita, KS. I wasn't dressed in preppy clothes. I was taught that violence was unequivocally wrong. I was taught to treat others with love and respect. That made me just slightly different from those around me, in a not-quite-identifiable way.
Fine. Grade school was generally tolerable, though by the end of it I was starting to formulate some ideas about why the education system sucked so bad, especially for the creative individual. Isolated experiences with bullies started making me a bit cynical about the kids I went to school with, but it could be survived.
7th. grade -- the beginning of Junior High. Hell opened up its stinking, wretched maw and puked all over my little world. Instantly, and for no reason I could conceive of, I was singled out for systematic derision and abuse -- not by one or two people who happened not to like me, but by tens of people from all different cliques and social groups. People I didn't even know would call me a fag as I walked down the hall. Food would be thrown at me in the cafeteria. Stuff would be smeared on my locker. I was spit upon. I was shoved. This was not teasing, or good-natured razzing, but systematic abuse. I can remember screaming obscenities at a whole shop class.
It wasn't just because I was in the "gifted" program -- there were lots of others who didn't get the shit I got. It wasn't that I was some kind of teachers' pet -- I really didn't get great grades -- I was always more interested in my own projects than whatever it was the teachers happened to be saying. It wasn't just because I was into computers -- there were plenty of geekier geeks than me that weren't singled out in the way I was. Everyone I knew read science fiction/fantasy if they read anything at all, but they weren't called "space-cadet". I wasn't a racial minority, I wasn't the ugliest person in school, or the fattest, or the skinniest, or the richest, or the poorest. I wasn't gay, and though they called me a fag, I don't really believe that anyone actually thought I was homosexual. That's just the Junior High code word for "We f'ing hate you!"
The point was not that I belonged to the wrong group, but that I didn't belong to any group. Though we pay lip service to "Individualism" in the US, what we really mean is "selfism". Society doesn't really respect the individual as a social entity. The naked individual is truly the most hated, isolated minority there is. Racism, sexism, and homophobia, are all instantiations of the one great hatred: The hatred of the Individual by the Group.
I've played more fantasy/sf role-playing games than I can count. I've played Doom. I've played Quake. I've seen plenty of movie violence. I'm still committed to pacifism. What you get out of what you see in the movies or on your computer screen depends more on the values and experiences you bring to it than the content. In High School, my friends and I would play elaborate wargames with toy guns that shot plastic tracers and rubber bullets. Later we graduated to paintball. Did it desensitize me to killing? No. Paintballs can sting. You can pump up a lot of adrenaline and fear in a paintball game, even though you know the most that can happen is a little welt or bruise. But if you come to the game with a healthy dose of common sense, empathy, and respect for life and others, you learn how utterly unthinkable real violence is.
I learned something profound about the world one day in ninth grade when I was being taunted by a couple of the more popular girls in the school. There was a girl in our class who had skipped a grade or two and was developmentally behind everybody else (physically, at least). She was almost as much a pariah as I was and was dumped on unmercifully by the conformist majority. So the popular girls were goading me to ask her out to some dance or something. Clearly, the implication was that here were two geeky freaks that were perfect for each other. Not wanting to be associated with somebody that was so despised, I began insulting her. She wasn't present to hear it, but I later started to feel really uneasy about what I'd done. She had done nothing to deserve that from me, other than being another outcast. So why did I do it? It suddenly occurred to me that I could understand why the other kids treated me like shit. I had done the same thing to someone else (behind her back, at least.) It wasn't that they hated me as an individual. Some of the same people who trashed me in front of their friends were on occasion at least civil to me on an individual basis. It wasn't personal. It was all about the all-mighty Group.
I resolved to be the ultimate anti-conformist -- I wouldn't do what the f'ing conformists wanted me to do, but I wouldn't reactionarilly do the opposite, either. I would do exactly what I wanted to do and be exactly who I wanted to be. I had been through Hell. Nothing they could say anymore was worse than what had already been said. For me, it wasn't a choice of whether to conform to this clique or that, but a challenge to survive Junior High and High School without belonging at all.
I was taught not to hate others, and after seeing that I was fully capable of being just like them, it was a little easier not to. But I had to have some object for the hatred that my classmates were pumping through me, so I hated the Group and the System. I constructed an elaborate fantasy world where Weird Energy would ultimately triumph over the numbed, mindless army of conformists.
I can't say that I emerged from Jr. High/High School without a scratch. I can't say that I always perfectly lived up to my ideals. Despite my convictions about violence, I beat the shit out of one kid a couple times. But I can only imagine what I would have done if I hadn't had some pretty strong moral beliefs restraining my hand.
I never had a date till my sixth year of college (out of seven -- I was still more interested in my own projects.) We've been very happily married for 3.5 years now. But it took a revolution in my thinking before I could ever ask her out. I was so afraid of rejection, and I'd built up this idea that I was such a unique, nonconformist individual, that only a few, extremely rare women could ever see me for who I was. So I'd get infatuated with a girl, and think "this is the only one who could understand me -- this is my only chance for a meaningful relationship, so I'd better not screw it up" -- and would be parylized into inaction. I would think that I would have to make her want me, by being so charmingly quirky that she would come to me. It was bullshit and it never worked. I finally had to decide that this one shot was not my only chance, and I could take a risk.
But before that were many hours of "The Wall" on video and as a midnight movie. There was lots and lots of misery, self-pity, wretched poetry, and "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" in those college years. Yet I did not kill myself or anybody else. To do so would have been dumber than a shitsickle stick. It would have meant that the bastards had won, that the System had ground me under it's wheels. Finally, I learned that wallowing in self-pity wasn't the most attractive trait I could have, and after I dumped that, things did get better. I still listen to Pink Floyd though.
The Politics of Exclusion is what creates homicidal lunatics. Conformism is the root of all evil. It's certainly why Uncle Bill is so filthy, stinking rich. Ultimately, we have to hold people accountable for whether or not they give in to the assumed desires of the conformist majority and become part of the problem, or think for themselves.
That's part of what makes the Open Source movement so compelling. Generally speaking, it's not filled with a bunch of me-too consumers, but rather people who have at least half a brain, and are interested in being part of a better solution, popularity-be-damned. It's about thinking for yourself, being creative, and being inclusive. No wonder this issue has generated so much traffic here.
So what's my point? I dunno. There's hamburger all over the highway in Mystic, Connecticut.