Home Sweet Sweatshop 211
gdbear writes "Found a very interesting article on digital corporations and the new work ethic of never leaving work. It's a bit disturbing.
" Reading was deja vu all over again-live in the place, work in the place. The 20 foot commute is a boon and a curse. The perks of the lifestyle sometimes cover up the huge suck of your life that jobs like this take.
Doesn't Suck. It's all worth it in the end. (Score:1)
Is far as i can tell there's only one reason to work more then 60 hours of week for a fortune 500, to achieve the first of these goals. I worked my arse off for a fortune 500 my per hour wage was under $8 per hour. Not not good for a fresh college graduate. But i got good experience, and a promotion to a department where i could grow new skills. Sure alot of people say that you could leave at 5 and grow thoose skills at home but there nothing like real world experience in a new area to make it etch in your soul. My next job had even more challenges for me and an incredibly higher salary.. with the hours i put in... about $17 per hour. I had a small string of jobs after that whilst I looked for my "ground floor" oppurtunity.
I think I've finally found it. Sure I know lots of people are stuck in a dead end job clutching worthless stock options. This happens to lots of people. The only thing you can do to fight that is to educate yourself on IPO's and the people that are trying to make your companies deal. So when you CFO says he thinks this s-1 thing that he is doing is the hardest document he's ever had to write or when the CEO is bringing in "brokers" for you to meet and a little digging into their past shows them as being penny stock shorters etc., then you will know that it is time to run. I've run from several "start-ups" chasing the dream of valuable options. I'm a developer at a small company that decided it would actually go public and now my options are worth actually money.
lets see.. I average 75 hours a week.. * 52 weeks.. and with my stock option i'm making about $620 per hour (as of trading friday) now.
I know that would not have happened if i would have punched a clock and left work everyday at 5:05 like so many of my slackers workmates.
cc the greedy little boy
These people are not hardcore! (Score:1)
. (Score:1)
Re: war to protest (Score:2)
It's like the claims that we have full employment. I drive down main street Guadalupe at 7am in the morning and see the Hispanic men standing on the streetcorners, hoping someone will stop and hire them to work in the fields. Tell these men that we have full employment. Yeah, right. The government uses fraudulent statistics (those men aren't unemployed, because they aren't registered at the unemployment office!) in order to keep the populance fat and happy and unconcerned... and gosh, you know what? It's working!
Big business got the shit scared out of them in the 60's, and bought up all major media sources in response so that we will never get balanced reporting again. Think of that, next time you see talk about the "worker shortage" and "historic low unemployment". Think about those men standing on the street corner, and how the government and the big-business-owned media has rendered them invisible.
--E
Re:At 40, I've gotten out of the trap (Score:2)
Which isn't to say that contracting is not great, just that roses have thorns too.
-E
Re:The Internet Media places aren't alone. (Score:2)
1) Your boss is an ex-used-car salesman who believes that anything can be fixed if he only yells and verbally abuses people a little harder.
2) You can no longer give status reports to your boss because he is always "in a meeting" or "has other appointments".
3) Because of the above, your boss has no idea what you do.
4) Paycheck bounces. (I have always made it clear that if my paycheck bounces, that is the end of my employement with that company).
5) Your co-workers are all worthless syncophants who were hired because they were college buddies of your boss, and you end up doing their work because they are incompetent. (I have had a co-worker like this, but both myself and my other co-workers who had to cover for him when deadline came and he disappeared raised hell and got him canned -- note that this only works when the top technical people are working together as a team and can gang up on the boss).
Basically, my no-nos are: verbal abuse (I don't do it, I don't tolerate it, if you have a problem tell me but I don't accept yelling or abusive language), lack of communication (if I have a problem I expect to be able to talk with my co-workers and manager about it, and vice-versa, don't give me any of this talking-behind-my-back bullshit), and of course not being paid! I've had good luck for the past four years in that my managers have been pretty cool (well, Will a couple of years back was a stubborn old bull and we fussed at each other a lot, but we damn well respected each other -- in fact, we're going out to lunch tomorrow afternoon).
Anyhow. There are good employers and managers who at least are supportive out there (may not agree with you, but they at least don't try to cut you down). It's a hard search, but worthwhile when you find it. And a note to employers -- that's how you keep me (or any good hacker) around for a while too. I was being seriously underpaid in one job that I worked for three years, but I kept working there because I liked the people I was working with, the working environment was hectic but the people I worked with were great people, and I liked the respect that I had from my co-workers and from the company's clients. If I had to deal with people verbally abusing me all day long, toady employees with nothing better to do than back-stab, and enforced long hours, I would have walked out the door within a month, not after three years.
Oh -- the BRU guys are great too (grin). It's great to be back programming neat stuff.
-E
Vacation? What vacation? (Score:3)
Open Source offers another avenue -- work on a cool project, get a reputation, get money thrown at you. Still, it doesn't seem to me that college kids can be too sanguine about getting a job if they're going to "slack" during the summers the way our parents did.
depends on your stage in life (Score:1)
Whether you think it's great to spend all your time at work depends on your stage in life, ie what else you have going on. If you're young, healthy, single, with no other hobbies/ commitments/interests - go for it. Companies are only too happy to let you sacrifice everything else in your life for a job. But watch out or you'll end up like some people here in Silicon Valley: getting older, no family, few friends, OK money but not rich yet, and no perspective on how to have a life outside the rat race.
FYI to anyone looking for a job..... (Score:1)
There is a company in Houston called Universial Computer Systems( AKA U. C.heap S.hits). They have about an 200-300% turnover every 6-9 months. Most employees there make less than 20k a year & put in 60-80 Hours a weeks. All This without any perks.
Be Warned!!!!! STAR AWAY!!!!!
get rich? (Score:1)
Stock options tend to be a soggy deal for most. Taxes on capital gains and lump sum bonuses eat up a mighty big chunk.
how realistic is this? (Score:2)
Do jobs on the left/right coast all go this way? I'm wondering.....what do you all know about it?
Re:Too many folks have a "Hero" complex... (Score:2)
Interesting spelling of intelligence, given the claim it is used in...
The problem is, as long as there are those who are willing to put in outrageous hours for next-to-nothing, that's what employers are going to expect and look for. Older, wiser people with responsibilities and common sense -- often the same people who in years past were the worker bees -- will find it harder to get employment.
One of my neighbors was asking me if I knew any programmers as her company was looking to hire. Then later she said it wasn't that they couldn't find anyone, it's just that the people they could find were so expensive. (Funny, I don't go in to my doctor's or lawyer's office and say "you do good work, but couldn't you do it for $35,000 a year?")
You know what I like about my job? (Score:1)
Yes, my hobbies do overlap my work a bit (they both involve computers) but at home my computers are MINE, they are more powerful than what my office has (save the HP mini), the Net connection is faster and best of all, my wife lives at my house.
I _LIKE_ going home and being able to do what I want. I like leaving the office and leaving work behind.
I never did like dorm life.
Stay current (Score:1)
> term job security. Sure one can get that
> first job, but later?
Stay current and you will be even more marketable at 40 then you are now. It is the 40-yr-olds who have the same skillset they did when they were 20 that are in trouble.
Find a part of the industry that you enjoy, and get good at it. If you like your work, staying current should be the most fun part of your job.
--
Re:Hippie. (Score:1)
Just like here (Score:1)
BTW, I'm 45 and still learning. So, some of the stuff the article mentions is a bit generalized.
Pathetic (Score:1)
I went into consulting to have 40 hr weeks, (or if longer I get overtime). I like coming home to my girlfriend, working out, reading, or playing on *MY* computer.
Jobs, like computers and even Linus, are not gods. Don't worship them. It's a waste of time.
Children (Score:2)
My father considered a Ph.D. many years ago (he already had an M.A.). It interested him, but I was 5 or six by then, and he didn't want to miss all of my growing up. He stayed a high school teacher, made a lot less, but left around 6:30 so that he could be home by 3:30 or so. We also had summers for family vacations.
As burnout got worse in my law practice, I realized that it was "now or never"--my oldest was 3, and the next was 2. I took the plunge, and defend a week from monday. [btw, anyonw need an attorney/economist/statistician with impressive programming skills for the next year
Teaching with the occasional antitrust case certainly will pay less than other options that I have and had, but there's no way in H*** that I'm not going to be around for my kids growing up. And if I take a year-round research job for the next couple of years, it's going to be with the understanding that I can take off additional unpaid time in addition to regular vacation. The job just pays the bills; family is what's important.
While I'm at it, I did work at home for a few months as I closed down my practice. The hardest part is that two year olds just can't understand that just because daddy's in the house doesn't mean he can play
hawk, esq., soon to be Ph.D., who's going nuts because his family's on the other side of the country due to an illness
Enjoy your last vacation in college (Score:2)
Unionization sucks... (Score:1)
Training does work (Score:1)
"Traditional" classroom training can be slow - especially when you have people that don't learn well in that sort of an environment. There are many different techniques to training: one-on-one, group, individual study, workshops, seminars, etc. Different topics are suited to different types of training, and different people are better suited to different types of training.
For instance, I'm a big believer that programming is an intense one-on-one experience. Once you feel what it's like to "pair program", it's hard to go back to the "lone hacker" paradigm.
Re:Oh, it's not the life for me! (Score:1)
M$... (Score:1)
I'm getting tired of 80+ hour weeks... I'd like to enjoy my life while I still have one!
Re:Unionization is the only way to get ahead. (Score:5)
A union would do nothing but make things worse. There are an enormous number of open positions in IT-related fields all over the country. If you don't like working in that sort of an environment, don't take the job!
Take something else. There are pleanty of people who love working in that sort of a creative, energetic environment. If your choice of employer doesn't fit your chosen lifestyle, its your choice of employer that's the problem, not the employer's way of doing business. This isn't the same as being a assembly line worker in a one-industry town where you have no choices.
If the pace of change and expectations of working environments in the IT industry don't mesh with anyone's ideas, they should rethink the field they're going into, or find a place that works for them. Don't expect the industry to change. The fact that there are so many jobs paying six figures to people too young to even rent a car is attributable to the fact that there is just energy and committment among those people. You can have the cooshy fourty hour a week job, or the fast-paced six figure job where you do nearly everything under the sun at any given point. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I think, if anything, the greater problem is the number of companies that DON'T provide that sort of a working environment, and wonder why they can't hire people. There's been a lot of bitching this year here in Connecticut about "brain drain" and why companies here in state can't find technical workers. A local rag had an article this week saying that companies weren't looking in the right places, using highschool students and inner city kids as examples of untapped skill markets. They were completely off base though. Its a piece of cake to find a worker, but companies that don't realize the level of benefits that they need to give to their employees won't keep them.
When a worker slaves 40-50 hours a week at a mediocre pay sees that they could be working 60 hours a week, for more money in an environment where blowing off steam is expected through vicious games of parking-lot street hockey, pinball, beers in the fridge, or rides on the company yacht, there's not much reason for them to stay, particularly given the fact that the most easily available people for those positions are typically young men and women without families and a lot of ability to pick up and move.
A union won't change that. A union would slow the pace of innovation, hurt the pay scales (since unions have a tendancy to even out pay scales -- you'll no longer be payed $40k more than your next door cube mate on account of your greater skills...), and hurt the ability for companies to change and move quickly in the market.
Unions are a plague in this country... they've served no useful purpose since work environments stopped being dangerous, and in most industries where they exist, they serve to line the pockets of the union leaders and keep underqualified and incompetant workers employed.
If you're in IT, you don't need a union to protect your rights, you just need your feet. Walk out the door, the place across the street will probably give you 20% more anyway. The only workers unions will help will be the ones who overstate their qualifications and experience anyway.
Re:Unionization is the only way to get ahead. (Score:1)
In ways, I agree with your assessment of Unions. However, you're looking at it from a capitalist stance. You might want to take a look
at it from an anarchist (libertarian socialist) viewpoint:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1931/secJ5
The problems with trade unions are heirarchial, just as almost all problems are. You can't trust your boss because he is in a position of power over you. How can you trust a union leader?
A highly democratic, non-heirarchial union would be a different story, however. Maybe programmers (being the most anarchistic and meritocratic, especially in Linux community) would be the best ones to try out a new system such as this?
--
Michael Chisari
dominion@beyondtheweb.com
Home offices and Office homes. (Score:1)
I found myself wondering about this when I stayed late to do some paperwork and avoid the hectic commute. Why bother going home? Even with a typical 8 hour workday, and two hours of commuting, It's just a place to commute to, sleep in, cook in, and do laundry in. What's the point?
If you're single, there is little need for a 'home'.
Re:Enjoy your last vacation in college (Score:1)
I just graduated High school, and while I do plan on going to college, I am honestly wondering if its worth my time and money. Time will tell.
--
Dave Brooks (db@amorphous.org)
http://www.amorphous.org
Re:Home offices and Office homes. (Score:1)
So long as you don't mind staying single, sure. But to meet a S.O., you need to GET OUT from time to time. That health, monitor-born palor generally doesn't get you dates. You'll never even meet anyone, cow-workers aside. Don't mess with your fellow wage-slaves, don't piss in your own drinking water.
Heaping piles of money just might, but that just gets you a gold digger. Sure, they put out at first, but so what? Pretty damn empty. Fun though.
Re:Other Professionals Make the Same Trade Off (Score:1)
Tied into that, there is the simple theory of Moore's law. Everyone expects it. In EVERY field now. You can no longer take the time to do it slowly and right, because the audience demands it NOW. It is a cultural thing. We are taught to be so self driven and in some ways that only re-inforces our tendencies to be self centered. Which only feeds the vicious circle. And those who are at the top survived, so now they feel that we ought to "do our time". We, as a species are caught up in how 'much' we accomplished. Quantity not quality. This has been reflected in our life styles by and large for years. Are we truly to be surprised when it becomes de facto standard for our work environments?
Re:Some Peoples Life Sucks - Tech is not for all (Score:1)
Fuck 8am till forever.. Marketing does 10am till 5pm, and usually takes a 2 hour lunch..
Not to mention the freebie and travel perks.
And, as the only unix ninja in the marketing camp, half the time my job boils down to doing little computer things IT should be doing.. Who wants to fill out paperwork when the guy in the next cube can do in 30 seconds? Not to mention, "You an't fire/transfer him, he unscrews up my laptop when it goes nuts.."
My advice for young people.. Learn to make PCs work on your own time, take something marketing friendly in school.. The starting pay isn't as good, but the stress and personal commitment is *so* much lower, and advancement is easier to comeby if your into it.. Then again, I'm 23..
Yep. (Score:1)
I have to tell you, it's NOT all wine and roses. I actually have serval friends (all GA/Designers) that have done it for years...it nearly drove one crazy and broke p another's marriage almost.
The problem is 'your job is not your life' unless you live alone.
And 'getting out' becaomes the highlight of what you do.
If you work at home, you *will* work more unpaid hours than if you were in the office...and smart companies know this.
You see, since its more uncommon than common in most markets, telecommuters work harder and extra so as not to 'ruin' it...for themselves, or others.
Conversely, these 'work-at-home-like' offices (motely fool's webdev is set up like this) has a dark side too...someone *else* decides when 'playtime' is over, and I've know more than a couple of folks that have been sent packing over these kinds of...misunderstabndings.
What I think is needed is a bit more balance...maybe 2 days at the office, 3 days offsite.
-K
Live at work? (Score:1)
Re:you programmers think things are hard. (Score:1)
Mine's okay too (Score:1)
Now, I know some people are maybe more dedicated, and have a more fun office environment, so they're more likely to stick around for the long hours, and that may burn them out, and ya, maybe someday unions will be the answer (especially in the large corporate environments), but now, there's enough demand that we can take our talent and walk, that is, if we're in a city with enough jobs in our field.
Drive to the office reboots? (Score:1)
Can't you do telnet reboots, or am I just ignorant?
Pretty intelligent reply (Score:1)
Re:Deja Vu All Over Again (Score:1)
I come to work, they pay me for 8 hours / day that's how long I work. If they want me here any longer, they pay for it. Simple.
Even 40 hours is a fair bit. Too bad I don't have the willpower to force myself to be poor and only work part time
A look at both ends of the spectrum (Score:1)
And it seems that most of you are into it this way because you choose to, which is of the utmost importance. Bravo, I say, because you really need to do what you enjoy. If the majority were being forced into this against their will, it would be a problem.
The 12-14 hour days are not for me. In the two or three career paths I see for myself, only one of them has the possibility of non-traditional workdays. I enjoy computers, but could never spend that much time with them. Come 4:30 or 5:00, I want to leave work behind and enjoy time with a wife, kids, nature, a good book and a beer, watching the news, etc.
It must be terribly difficult to be socially active with an extra long day. You could argue that you can still be social online, but I would counter that by saying that time with "real" people and friends is much more fun. Hmm, chat rooms or a night out with your best buddies for drinks and live blues? Online Quake or an evening hike? I appreciate my friends for wanting to include me in things rather than seeing me while away my free time in front of a computer.
I could easily see problems with marital relations, families, stress-related health issues, etc. if this became the norm. But it seems to be mostly in the realm of the single 20 and 30-somethings. Perhaps it's best that way, and people will transition out of that sort of thing as they get older and start families.
Oh, and cubicles do suck, as a previous poster alluded to.
Re:Enjoy your last vacation in college (Score:1)
There is so much more that you get out of college than just things that are applicable towards a job. Like hanging out with friends, even if it's just being around a lot of people your own age all the time.
The drinking/partying that you might participate in. The ease of finding someone to play cool board games with (like Titan, or Diplomacy).
There's also the social skills you learn. Granted, some people may already have them, so YMMV.
All-in-all, I think there are a lot of good reasons to go to college. Very few of them (IMHO) have to do with your job-skills. I'm glad I went (even if I did quit after 3.5 years with 1.5 years to go).
Re:Pretty intelligent reply - really (Score:1)
Besides, his comment actually made me read the "hippy" comment, instead of skipping it.
Re:Enjoy your last vacation in college (Score:1)
It is however a real shame to see people with Masters breaking their backbones to get jobs as Admin Assistants that barely pay 40k.
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Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
Re: war to protest (Score:1)
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Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
Why I won't work at home exclusively again. (Score:2)
With that said however, I do prefer to work at home occasionally. I think a 3 or 4 day work week at the office is great. It lets you interact face to face with other real people and limit your time and exposure to the work enviroment. Forces you out of your safe comfortable home and keeps you in touch with how lame the real world can be sometimes.
The company I work for has mostly bought into the work equals home concept. Free snacks, very relaxed atmosphere... they buy your dinner if you stay past 7. But I am too wise and cynical now to fall for the sell my life to the company for a free meal deal. Lots of people who haven't worked at home before here think all this free stuph and this home/work atmosphere is the best thing ever. I just try and remind them its a company and not your family.
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Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
But work is fun (Score:1)
Unions will only work if . . . (Score:1)
Especially since the minute management gets wind of what you're doing, they will be out to get rid of you, or make your life a living hell -- or both.
Most IT jobs tend to be bearable enough that people aren't going to organize. Those that aren't -- e.g. end user support in a sweatshop like Stream -- have tremendous turnover & will never get the necessary signatures to bring a union in. And as long as other businesses can recruit people out of phone support hells, that turnover will continue to be tremendous.
If this equation ever changes, though . . .
Geoff
Programmer shortage... (Score:2)
If you're doing this for the money, YOU WILL BURN OUT. Fast. People who get CS degrees with dollar signs in their eyes don't last long. They're also generally really bad programmers (see point 1).
THIS is why free/open source is winning. The ones who care about doing it right so bad it hurts are the ones who start and run all these projects because it has to be done RIGHT, darn it! The hordes of wannabes and apathetic check cashers send us complaints about it not working right, and if we're lucky they're good enough to spot the bug. Ocasionally, they pick up enough as they go along to become real hackers.
You can't hire that, because money isn't what motivates it. "I can do better" ego and a raging sence of injustice that some idiot was getting paid for doing it wrong in the first place started Richard Stallman with the GNU project. Yearning for a decent intellectual challenge (a specialized kind of boredom), and that nasty urge to take the refrigerator apart and see how it works prodded Torvalds to complete it with the Linux kernel. Apache was just a bunch of people tinkering with a defective tool they used regularly and a "wow, cool, can I borrow that" attitude, who were lazy enough to want to make things easier on themselves by sharing the work.
Then pride, fan mail, and a general sense of accomplishment kick in and look out, 200+% annual growth.
And if we can all make money off of this kind of thing, even do it as a day job, well that's a bonus.
Rob
If you've ever had to say "no, not like that" to somebody, you understand open source.
Re:Programmer shortage... (Score:2)
>you look at it from this perspective. I remember
>one project where I did put in the heavy hours,
>not because of a deadline or any management
>induced requirement, but because I needed to do
>it. Afterward, several coworkers and superiors
>expressed appreciation, but there was no huge
>payoff/bonus/promotion in it for me. And that's
>OK, because now the code is there, and its still
>in production use.
I did the exact same thing for a large nameless company (ok, IBM). I inherited a piece of junk that was technically complete, but not working, and spent evenings and weekends virtually rewriting it.
I didn't even get a "thank you" from management, just "too big a change, we can't risk it" until the test department came back and said "profoundly unacceptable in all categories" and the boss saved face with "wait, we have a fix" and took credit for my six months work as a band-aid fix. (And gave me a bad performance review for staying in my office coding instead of attending his truly pointless daily meetings.)
The reward? The code shipped, as part of a larger overall product with a declining market share (OS/2). Three years later, it's an archaeological relic.
This is another big push for open source, freeing code from context. So the program itself is no longer useful, there are a half-dozen valuable subsystems in that thing that could easily have been salvaged and re-used. I wrote an object oriented GUI management system they wanted to patent, my own (fairly optimized) grep implementation, a configuration file parsing mechanism I was outright proud of, and even some new (generally applicable) build tools.
All of the above is under lock and key somewhere, collecting dust. It's closed source, the program is no longer being developed, that's the end of it.
I made my own happy ending to the story: I left the company. Programmers are a lot like cats: as long as we're happy you can't get rid of us, make us unhappy you can't keep us.
Rob
Right on! (Score:1)
It is nice to forget everything at work when you leave and have a mental break. Do hobbies and relax at home.
Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way for me. I am beginning next week 24/7 hardware testing (I work in the aerospace industry) for three weeks. It is rewarding since it is a change in pace, but least it's only temporary.
I could not work at home (or bring work home) or work 40+ hours a week for anything longer than a few weeks.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Help me (Score:1)
My email is intern_boy_chris@yahoo.com
Let me know how the market is like. I'm too confused by all these comments!
Balance is the key (Score:1)
I went from living on computers, to living on love, to living on work, to not living, and now back to computers again.
Only this time I've learned something: Balance.
I'm just glad I figured it out while there still is time. Sounds like these people need some lessons in living 101.
eg. paradigm (Score:1)
In addition, everything computer-related seems easier to deal with after hours when "normal" people have gone home and the resources arefreed up and no one is bothering you to change their screensaver. Late hours are the best work hours.
Late hours however are not equal to long hours. Its my opinion that 50 hour + work weeks for the computer-related fields will continue simply because they're accepted norms. Accepted by the people that work them and accepted by the people that make you work them. Perhaps there does need to be a high tech union on a nationwide scale.
Work hard....play harder (Score:1)
Re:Doesn't Suck. It's all worth it in the end. (Score:1)
I think the artical missed the point: Work your ass off, retire at 40.
Too many folks have a "Hero" complex... (Score:4)
Party? (Score:1)
Not just New Media (Score:3)
However, this isn't the only career with these sorts of problems. Before becoming a programmer, I was a graduate student in micro/molecular biology. As a graduate student I was expected to work far more than 40 hours a week on a stipend of approx 15K/yr (at the University I attended - this will vary depending on the institution, city, etc.) This included my lab work and teaching. What happens when you finish your doctorate? Why, you continue with post-doctorate work (or training). Post-docs tend to be 1-5 year positions, usually salaried between 20-35 K/year, few benefits, if any. And once you have finished one or two post-docs, THEN you can apply for a permanent job! The good ones are apparently hard to get - with cutbacks in education, many professorial jobs are being eliminated. Industry jobs are often less than secure in biotechnology. Most of these jobs are not lucrative, either (with the odd exception, of course!), and there is sometimes a bias against older applicants, or people with gaps in publication records. (If you are a female scientist, wanting to have a family, you will likely be creating those dreaded publication gaps.) Life is expected to revolve around your science, and from what I have seen, young scientists spend more time in the lab than programmers in the office around here!
Anyhow, it is tough to be an educated professional these days, in several fields. I enjoy what I am doing at the moment, and it pays reasonably well. Someday, I may have to switch careers again (when I am eased out at 35, perhaps?), but I know I won't be the only person in this boat. I don't see any immediate solutions to the overall problems in the industry, so it is probably up to each individual to keep their own options open, and decide the order of priorities in their lives.
YS
Media Shmedia (Score:1)
legitimizing the dubious technical expertise
of the coders in the "new media" industry.
While I admit that the article is an insightful
look into that segment of the booming technical
industry, I think any conclusions which may be
drawn from the article are hardly far reaching.
The "new media" world provides and organizes
content primarily for corporations via the
creation of websites. While some of these
sites do require novel features and serious
programming on the back end, I would venture
a(n unsupported) claim that most sites produced
require more artwork than technical work.
HTML is not a programming language. An HTML
coder is not a programmer. Even knowing
javascript, ASP, and some SQL or VBA does
not qualify one as much of a programmer.
I have been in college, graduate school, in
various segments of the industry, in the market,
and own my own over the past few years. I am
a programmer (as are many of the readers of
this site) and see no indication that it is
an employers' market for programmers. While
there is widespread overworking of truly
technical people it has been my direct experience
that this is essentially due to the scarcity
and expense of good programmers.
I don't believe this contradicts what the article
is saying, just points out that what the "new
media" bunch considers "technical work" is
generally little more than technical grunt work.
The fact that a guy can come in from being a
sword swallower at Coney Island to being one
of their "programmers" should be sufficient
evidence...
I know what you mean (Score:1)
I switched to a Masters of Fine Arts in fiction, not anymore money or job opportunities, but I figured I might as well try to do something I enjoy, is meaningful, and I can do now, not in 9 years
Re:Prospects Dim? (Score:1)
:-)
Re:Is that so bad? (Score:1)
I believe that we should avoid treating work as "something we do outside of who we are". Your influence on the world while at work is often more powerful than when you are not working, so you should live your work even if you just work to live. This means supporting what your company is doing, too.
Re:First Reply! [sic] (Score:1)
> job", well, it ain't always just that easy, cuz
> you're afraid to loose the things you love
> about the job you've got.
Okay, _first_ of all, it's "FIRST POST, D))D!" not "first reply". Sheesh, some people.
Second of all.. afraid is no way to live your life. Go out on a limb now and then. If you do, you might learn something (hopefully not the hard way). If you don't, you're bound to regret it.
Don't beleive it! (Score:1)
It May Suck, But.. (Score:2)
Re:Stay current (Score:1)
It's easy to believe that when you're 25. This isn't my problem, it's those stupid old farts who never bothered to learn C++, Java, Perl....
Then you turn 40, and you notice that even though your resume is full of bleeding-edge skills, you get half as many phone calls as you did when you were 37. Hmmm... maybe those old farts had a point, eh?
The Society We live in... (Score:1)
If someone walks up to you and asks "So what do you do?", you don't say "Well, I work about 9 hours a day, then I go home and be the most sensitive, caring father I can be." Instead you say "I'm a computer engineer." Even if that isn't the image of yourself you would prefer to give, the pieces of exactly who you are tend to fall into place *behind* your job.
--Mid
This is not anything new... (Score:1)
The really scary part is that this is a modern American occurance. European workers have something like 4-6 weeks paid vacation. If we compare the hours worked to those of people in the past like serfs or hunter/gathers they worked even less than we did(something like 130 days/year for serfs and 18-24 hours a week for hunter/gathers).
Re:Unionization is the only way to get ahead. (Score:1)
Unfortunately thats not the case. If virtually every company in the industry requires 60+ hours a week than you have no choice but to work those hours (changing careers to another field often isn't a choice). Although working for 12 hours straight has an heroic aspect to it, the simple fact is that when companies had their workers work less than 40 hours a week, the increase in productivity more than made up for the fewer working hours. I think that would probably be the case in tech fields.
In a lot of cases unions are effective and do perform useful actions. Without unions to provide a check on employers, companies can often force their employees to accept conditions that they don't wish becuase of the power disparity between the two.
Weed out the unfit !! (Score:1)
These are some of the actual realities of life that medical interns had to suffer to achieve mastery of their speciality (and the rights to their 4 day golfing weekend). However, there is a big big difference in skill levels between a top-notch heart surgeon and a herbal dispensor with matching salary scales.
The big problem that I see is that there is no high level professional accreditation process for software development. Anyone can code, but it is harder to put together cost-effective solutions to solve a problem. The Microsoft/Cisco/etc certifications are mere first-aid certificates in comparison with the amount of training doctors insist on for their professional qualifications. And just like any high-level profession, not everybody has the tolerance of stress or the right qualities to be a super-achiever.
There are a few professional IT bodies evolving, the System Administrator's Guide (SAGE) is one example. In this frontier environment, it might be profitable peddling silicon snake oil to the ignorant masses but it does not instil long-term confidence in the customer. Unfortunately there is no easy way of separating out the good from the bad and I suspect the whole IT industry is just too immature at this stage (plus too many contentious political in-fighting for the spoils) to formalise any discipline specific review processes (much less decide on disciplines).
The alternative is to foster a culture that encourages the right long-term behaviour and allow talent to rise to the top. Much like the Hippocratic Oath defines the medical profession, I would suggest that we need an equivalent Hacker's "Code of Conduct" to decisively shift OpenSource from fighting proprietary silicon snake oil to being a peer reviewed professional quality service.
LL
Re:A look at both ends of the spectrum (Score:1)
depending on where in a release cycle I am,
and how much devotion I currently have to the
cause.
That's fine: I can work for 14 hours, spend an hour commuting, and still have 3-4 hours for a social life --- sleep is for the weak --- and then, later, when the pulse of the cycle drops off, I can slack a little.
I'm pretty sure the thing that makes this work is the fact that almost all of my friends do it, too --- so it seems more like there isn't any other way to live, somehow.
Re:Programmer shortage... (Score:1)
YES! YES! YES! YES! That is what it's all about! THAT is why the last word in Open Source is SOURCE!
It's the code, stupid.
Why do hackers spend 60+ hours/week hacking? To make the code better. Why make the code better? For a paycheck? For the project? For the team? For the Company? For some stupid Programmer Machismo? Nope.
Because the code deserves to be better.
The artist analogy made earlier really works if you look at it from this perspective. I remember one project where I did put in the heavy hours, not because of a deadline or any management induced requirement, but because I needed to do it. Afterward, several coworkers and superiors expressed appreciation, but there was no huge payoff/bonus/promotion in it for me. And that's OK, because now the code is there, and its still in production use.
My SO is understanding enough to put up with this type of behavior in the short term, as long as I come home eventually. I do enjoy seeing my kids grow up, so I wont let this type of work week be a lifestyle.
In short, life=work+family+friends, and work!=life-family-friends. Work is part of life, and part of who we are. But only part.
kz
Re:Is that so bad? (Score:1)
Work can be very enjoyable, but it shouldn't occupy all of your life. If it does, then you are missing out on a whole lot more.
Of course, if you don't feel like you are missing anything, then there isn't anything that is missing. I guess it all comes down to who you are...
Re:Unionization is the only way to get ahead. (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Oh please, quit yer bitchin! (Score:1)
Instead I commute 100 miles a day to some mudhole in the middle of nowhere so I can make $40-$50K if I bust my butt, work in the dusty heat or snowy cold. Sometimes I'm out there more than 18 hours and drive back on slick roads in my sleep.
Do I bitch and whine? No. Not until I hear someone who works from home complain about the commute.
Grrr - bletcherous plugins (Score:1)
Re:Grrr - bletcherous plugins (Score:1)
OK, there *is* a Linux beta version. Now the page looks virtually the same, but doesn't bring up a nag window asking me to get the plugin.
Whoopee.
Other Professionals Make the Same Trade Off (Score:1)
It all depends on your attitudes about work though. Personally, I'd much prefer to have a life. But many of my friends who work insane hours, including some who are in the 12+ hours/day category, say their work is their life, and they like it that way. Isn't it all about what you personally like better? So who am I to judge??
This reminds me.... (Score:1)
...of a short "essay" I came across awhile back. I can't remember if it was posted on Slashdot or not....
http://www.base.com/gordoni/found/job-suck.html [base.com]Re:Prospects Dim? (Score:1)
Its hard enough to find talented programmers, its hard to find people with specialized knowledge (business analyst, project managers), but it is next to impossible to get both in one person. Our only hope is to bring in a coder early on and hope that they stick around long enough to pick up the industry knowledge. Not much of what we do around here is straight coding, more high-level requirements analysis and design that ends up being coded at some point.
Re:Stay current (Score:1)
I find it hard to believe that any sensible firm would prefer to hire a brand new grad at the same salary as somebody who has been around a while.
Basically, I'm asking whether we're talking about descrimination against older workers, or just not as much favorable discrimination as the older workers are expecting...
Is there a decent study somewhere that addresses this?
Shaun
The economy changes. What's your hedge? (Score:1)
Or, of course, the Wired crew could be as right about the economy as they were about Push and their own IPO. Are you pulling enough out of your programming job to tide you over if the stockmarket panics on 9/9/99? Enough money, enough totally-other-economy skills, enough friends with some of the above? Enough current happiness to not mind if it all blows west?
'blurred distinction between work and play' (Score:1)
I _like_ the people I work with, which is a benefit like no other. I like the work I do, so it's no surprise if I occasionally work a weekend, or work late, or work at home.
Damn that 'techno loop' references in the article would be a nice change from the pop radio crap we've got going on here right now.
Re:Drive to the office reboots? (Score:2)
IIRC, the head NT administrator had the ability to do remote reboots. I didn't and since I lived fairly close, I would usually make the drive so I could troubleshoot the problem right away. I learned that if I didn't check on it ASAP, I would either (a) get called in anyway, or (b) have to answer "what went wrong" questions first thing next morning.
We also had a policy of "no software installs/upgrades during peak hours". For ISPs, that means 3:00pm to midnight. This usually meant doing the NT software install/reboot process in the wee hours when the least people would notice.
I didn't mind the late-night/early-morning installs, but having the pager go off during a date was a bummer.
Oh, and to preempt the "Can't you keep NT running?" attacks. Most of the problems were due to DLL versions being mismatched on servers and developer machines. Upgrading the servers to the same DLLs as the dev machines made everything unstable. There were also a few issues with the database server on which the web servers depended. This was before Transaction Server was used, so hung server-side objects tended to make IIS flaky.
Played these games before (Score:3)
Then there was the up-and-coming ISP with a habit of telling my team about urgent projects two days before they were due. They used the "you'll get stock when we go public" tactic. After too many 12-hour shifts and 3:00 am drive-to-the-office server reboots, I used the "I'll end up divorced if I stay here" resignation.
Overall, though, it's been a fun ride so far. I wonder what's next.
Oh, it's not the life for me! (Score:2)
Scenes like this are why I'm not directly in CS. With a wife and kids, I'll put in a good 40 hour week, thanks, and then GO HOME.
My aunt complains of deafness from too much loud music 20 years ago. I wonder what not enough sleep will do to these folks in the long run.
I couldn't agree more... (Score:2)
With unions, these jobs will be harder to find because I know that techs will be all over them to avoid being unionised (my brother was a courier who quit when the Teamsters took over).
On my first WT I worked on a project for Magna International (a piece of robotic factory machinery) and I spent a lot of time at a factory. They're completely non-union. The unions have tried, and failed, to come in. The workers are treated very well. All of the managers and high-up positions are filled by people who started on the factory floor. They give out $100 prizes to the person who submits the best entry in the suggestion box, which guarantees that workers' voices are heard and that they aren't afraid to make suggestions. The food in the (beautiful-looking) cafeteria is really good. Workers and their families can go on company vacations to various places (DisneyWorld, etc) for cheap. There's a whole lot more, but the most important thing is, it works.
And without greedy unions, which only serve to alienate workers and managers.
Best advice I ever had.... (Score:4)
Your JOB is not yours. It belongs to the company you work for. At best it's on lease.
Don't get attached to a job. DO get attached to building a career.
Re:Best advice I ever had.... (Score:1)
Of course, if you're a 1-man-shop, your job is owned by your company (ie. you) and they both own you [bseg]
At 40, I've gotten out of the trap (Score:1)
Now I work as a contractor. Many companies here are so desperate for warm bodies that there are lots of contract positions available. The nice thing about many of these positions is that the hourly pay is so good that the companies don't want you to work much more than 40 hours a week (and if they do, you get paid for those extra hours). So now I make more money than I ever did as a permanent employee while working less hours.
By the way, I see no evidence to believe that companies looking for contractors have any bias against people who are past their 20s and early 30s. My current contract requires that I program in two languages (perl and verilog) that I've never programmed in before. Nobody assumed that just because I was 40 that I'd have a hard time picking up new skills.
Re:Not as bad as it seems (Score:1)
I keep current on the tech, and I'm doing OK (Heck, we even got written up in InternetWorld). A little less money, but a lot less hours at the office
Re:Oh, it's not the life for me! (Score:1)
Your right. Onething I always wonder about
I've done this for 17 years now, and still LOVE coding, but I want to go home and SEE my family. I've found an odd (for this industry anyway) way of doing this. I get to work about 7:15am, and leave 4:45, so I can see my family before they go to bed. Then I go into the home office, (about 9pm) and crank out more stuff (sometimes for work, sometimes for "fun" project) till around midnight.
Charlie
Re:Deja Vu All Over Again (Score:1)
Doing it now (Score:1)
I can give advice to those out there, and it's simple advice. Find work you like doing. I am a systems monkey. That's why I like being a systems admin. It's fun to me. Find things you like to do.
Leave things at work. Do not let your personal and work life get to bother each other. It'll kill you fast. It's not worth killing yourself over.
Re:But that scares me (Score:1)
I think the value of knowing that you are productive as an intern is very rewarding. I recently quit my summer internship at one company because my boss was too busy to help me learn and assign me meaningful tasks. He was a great guy but he was working 50+ hours a week.
In my new job I am very productive and working very hard, 50+ hours a week. This is for a small business enjoy your job ? This is a yes or no question, there is no inbetween.
"A Brand of Whiskey"?!?! (Score:1)
"A brand of whiskey" my ass...damn kids...
Re:Too many folks have a "Hero" complex... (Score:2)
My father is a particularly scary example of said hero complex. And it has taken a toll on EVERYthing -- his other friendships, his marriage, and more recently his physical health. He's convinced that the place will fall apart without him, or something. Not cool.
I had that complex for a little while -- taking half an hour out of a one-hour lunch to "get things done," working overtime literally EVERY time the boss was looking for someone to do it, skipping breaks, and never calling in sick -- I went to work with a 102-degree fever and no voice rather than stay home because "people count on this department."
The thanks I got for the above? A review that admitted I was an excellent worker, but criticized my perceived arrogance. Thanks for nothing.
I gave myself the Christmas present of quitting the damn thing, and briefly went to the other extreme (slacking too much at work). The temp assignments ended, and I ended up floating around being unemployed for about a month.
Now I've got a new job, one I really like, and I'm working pretty hard at it (Slashdot is reserved for lunch-breaks and the couple of minutes I might get to work early now, at least until I get better net-access at home
However, I've learned my lesson, and I have no intention of repeating my father's mistakes.
After all, what do you get out of working yourself too hard?
More money? Not usually, if you're on salary.
Besides, when do you have the time to enjoy it?
The boss is happier? Again, not too likely, speaking from VERY bitter experience.
Control over "your" job? Um, more than likely, the stuff's going to be obsolete in the future, and your name won't be immortalized by it.
Besides, if you're sleep-depriving yourself constantly to do more work, work is controlling YOU
Re:But work is fun (Score:2)
But that scares me (Score:3)
One trend I notice to be very disturbing is the amount of overtime in the tech industry, observed from friends and internships. I can think of two reasons this is, and I don't know which is the greater cause. One is the obvious lack of workers.
But second, and what frightens me more, is the thinking that since college students coming out of college have alot of energy and no life, they can work 60, 70, 80+ hours a week and not miss a beat. There are companies that were hiring straight from college at my university this past year, and they just wanted the overachievers. It wasn't unheard of to be up 24-7 during training, and put in ungodly hours once they got out of that as well. The average time one was with that company was only 3 years. I suspect burnout.
I'm also currently working in an internship where if you're here after 5PM, something is terribly wrong. The environment here is very 8-5, suit, meeting driven, etc. etc. And I don't feel fulfilled. It's like I don't feel productive.
Yet at the same time, I don't want to go somewhere I can't back out of. I know that in a few years, I'm going to want to start a family. I want to come home every night and kiss my wife. I'm starting to wonder if there has to be a trade off.
But from the patterns I've seen, most companies like the out-of-college type because they can be overworked. And I don't want that. That scares me.
Maybe I should just go get my MBA and become a management drone. -sigh-
Texodore
Prospects Dim? (Score:3)
Tools evolve at breakneck speed, skills don't. (Score:2)
Give us an example of what 'skills' you need. Or is it that you don't give much of a damn about 'skills', but just people who know a particular assortment of tools. Tools evolve at breakneck speed, skills change slowly,
OO is a skill, Java/C++/Objective C/VC/EGCS are just tools.
Database programming is a skill, Oracle/Developer/Db2/Informix are just tools.
CGI programming is a skill, Perl/ASP/Php3 are just tools.
(even-driven/threaded/message-driven) GUI programming is a skill, Win32s, X windows, Mac, those are just tools.
Do you really want skills, or do you just want people who know a few specific tools?
My business at Carnegie Mellon University is to learn skills, not to learn tools.
Whom do you want? Someone who understands the skills, or someone who just knows how to use some particular tools, tools that will be obsoleted in 2 years?