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Hackers vs. crackers, security, & fun at Defcon 93

Posted by Hemos from the under-stand-the-subjects dept.
XLawyer writes "In an article about Defcon, a reporter from the New York Times tried reasonably hard to explain and observe the difference between hackers, who like to figure out how things work, and crackers, who like to get into other people's things and sometimes stop them from working. An interesting item in the article shows how crackers make reporters' jobs harder by calling themselves "hackers." " The article itself is well written, and lucid with some telling interviews; (NYT requires free login, BTW) .
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Hackers vs. crackers, security, & fun at Defcon More

Hackers vs. crackers, security, & fun at Defcon

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  • stop misusing "cracker" (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    OK, so those of you who explore your own systems don't want to be called by the same name as people who explore others' systems. Fine, but could you stop abusing the term cracker? Crackers are people who crack software, and don't want to be lumped in the same category with someone else any more than you hypocrites do.
  • "Nerd" was always too negative for me. So is "geek"...

    "SlashDot: News For Nerds. Stuff That Matters."?

    Seems to me we (at least ought to) embrace the appellation "nerd" as much as "geek".

    I've been meaning to hash this out for a while, and it's close enough to being on-topic now, so here goes:

    I've always thought of myself as a nerd, but to me it does not mean the "Poindexter"-type image (goofy, pocket-protector-wearing, glasses taped together, etc.). I've never even known anyone who fit that stereotype, and I've always been offended by it. To me, "nerd" generally means "someone who is smart, and therefore finds intellectual things interesting which are above the heads of the non-smart non-nerds, who therefore think the nerd is weird and unfairly stereotype him as the Poindexter-type because he uses big words that they don't understand".

    For a while, it seemed to me that "geek" should really mean what they meant by "nerd", while "nerd" remained a good thing, though some others seem to have it the other way around, but now I think these are both wrong: it's not that one means "smart person" and the other means "goofy guy with broken glasses". Rather, they're pretty much synonymous. "Normal" people use both to mean "goofy guy", but, in a sort of "geek pride movement", we reject the negative connotations in both cases, wearing our SlashDot and "Blood, Sweat, and Code" t-shirts, etc.

    Maybe it's a situation where: they use some word to insult us; we start calling ourselves the same thing and meaning it in a good way, considering some other word to mean the bad thing; they start insulting us with the new word; we adopt it as well; etc. When I think of it this way, it's actually kind of silly, like most of "Political Correctness" in general.

    I suppose "dork" might mean all the bad things that people usually have in mind when they say "nerd" or "geek", and to me it does not seem to have any of the good connotations, i.e., a dork is just Poindexter-ish, without necessarily being particularly smart. The cycle doesn't repeat because "dork" doesn't mean anything good, and I for one have no intention of taking it as a compliment. Then, the problem with non-geeks' perception of us is not that they call us nerds or geeks, but the fact that they think that nerds and geeks are also dorks. Hence, I am a nerd and a geek, but not, as most of the people I went to high school with seemed to think, a dork.

    As for the difference between "nerd" and "geek", they are, as I said, pretty much the same, but with slightly different connotations. How about this: I tend to think that a nerd is someone who is generally smart, including computer nerds as well as math nerds, physics nerds, chemistry nerds, and even literature nerds, while geeks are specifically the computer-oriented subset of nerds.

    Thoughts?

    David Gould
  • ...is very easy to avoid. Cut the TX wire on your NIC. (check the history about 'Beferd' for more).

    The biggest threat with respect to sniffing is in an ISP environment, where many folks are transmitting passwords in the clear (POP/IMAP). Suppose one machine out of the 10 in the racks get compromised. First, the intruder has no physical access to the hardware, so cutting that wire will be impossible.

    Besides, consider that many r00tings are commited by script kiddies. These are kids who can barely manage to compile scripts and rootkits. Even if they physical access, it's not very likely that they'd know what to cut.

    In a corporate LAN type of environment, bringing in your own NIC, chopping the TX wire, installing and sniffing isn't likely to go unnoticed. After all, you DO need to get some work done, right?

  • o.0

    I think there would be a number of people that would take exception to your assertion that "people on the math end of the cryptography game, or any one else doing abstract algo stuff" can't be considered to be hackers.

    I think they have just as much claim to the name as anyone else here. Of course some more than others, but that's just the point...

    Hacking is a mindset; it has nothing whatsoever to do with some specific ability.

    To be a coder, you have to be able to code.

    To be a hacker, you have to have an innate curiosity about the world around you and how it works. Whether that is restricted to the computer world, or whether it encompasses the physical, mental, natural or electronical (or any other) worlds...

    It so happens that most "computer hackers", as a result of this curiosity, want to find out how the computers work; what makes 'em tick... and this in turn leads to an ability to at least understand (if not write) code.

    But it's not a requirement.

    Don't get your causes mixed up with your effects.

    Hacking most definitely does not rely on an ability to code... or an ability to do anything else for that matter.

    It is a mindset.

    And a "mathematician" (your term) who has the correct mindset, would be just as much a hacker as I (a coder) am... probably moreso.
    --
    - Sean
  • He who is without sin throw the first stone..

    Anyone out there who is proficient in more than 2 programming languages that have to be compiled, though awk and sed scripting does count, that haven't been guilty of some sort of hacking and cracking in their lives is a total dork, and is living in a basement somewhere and afraid to face the real world. I haven't done anything script kiddie-ish in at least 15 years.

    Still, I think that is one of the rites of passage for a creative, ambitious mind.

    Hacking, and cracking (in every definition) do have one thing in common, they require creativity, and problem solving skills. This is good.. We need more creativity and better problem solving skills in this industry. Also, we need these people pounding away at our stuff keeping us honest. Anyone whining about script kiddies is an idiot who can't secure their boxes!!

    Get a grip, and let it go!

  • I'm going to explain it one more time. Only a yound adolescent that watched too much TV, or a grown-up with a sick mentality, would spent his time cracking systems belonging to others. I am too curious about the design and internals of the OSes, machines, programs, ..., but I explore them on my own machine. Of course! It is something completly surrealistic, to watch people seriously telling that they crack, because of their curiosity. That's simply not true. They crack, because they love to invade some kind of privacy of others, and because of TV. But what would you think of someone that would dismantle your car on the grounds that "he is curious about cars internal" ?
    Probably that he is on crack (see, a bad justification for the "crackers"). "Why the FUCKING HELL aren't you dismantling your car and explore his internals ?" will you probably shout. And you'll be right. And people despising intruders are similary right. And no amount of slashdot kiddies will change this fundemental fact.



    You speak like you are 12. When I defend the use of Hacker, I am not speaking of 14 year old script kiddies whacking websites like they are popping pez. I am speaking on behalf of myself and my friends. I no longer do any "black-hat" stuff. I have no desire. But I will say, that in the mid-80's it was much harder to find a Unix box to play around with, than it is now. Unless you were a university student at that time. The availability to most people to have one in their home to explore was rare. I have friends that were prosecuted for having nothing more than informational documents to the use of phone systems in their possession (They didn't take it. They just had it on their box.)



    Now as with any community there were people that wanted nothing more than that feeling of power that comes with getting root and 0wning your box. The hackers I defend were out for information, not simply to intrude into your property. The drive to learn, was the goal..



    Jarod

  • Adding the was a good idea :)

    Seriously though, I think you're right.

    A "Cracker" is a criminal, no matter what the justification, "Cracking" is a crime. A Craker may dislike a company, but does the Cracker stop to think about the knock on effect...?

    Boss: We've been hacked * he'll mean "cracked"
    Sys-Admin: Erm, yeah, I'll fix it.
    Boss: You f*cking *@~&$
    Sys-Admin: Sorry, some kids messed around, won't happen again...
    Boss: Better not you complete....
    Sys-Admin: Hey, if you let us spend some money on... [blurb]
    Boss: No, I give you enough, if you can't do your job, then you're outta here.

    Guy gets sacked....

    Sys-Admin goes home, fights with Wife, Kids upset etc... Now has no job, bad marriage. Wife in mood at her work, pisses off friend. Kids do badly in school etc...

    I'm not talking crap here, these are real consequences of "victimless" crimes.

    I rank "Crackers" along with makers of Viruses. I'd like to kill you all. I lost some work recently, my Virus Scanner was just over a month old, some stupid Excell virus cost me dearly... Thanks.

    Hmm, guess this one's hit a sore spot :)

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • The "the" was actually a close-bold html tag (/b) - read previous if this means nothing to you :)

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • The "crackers vs. hackers" debate come up on slashdot every time the media uses the term. People were debating this on Usenet and BBSes when I went online in the '80s, and the "trekkers vs. trekkies" debate has probably been around even longer.

    I call it the Starfish Syndrome: most people don't know or care about the difference between a boy starfish and a girl starfish, but it's a big deal to the starfish. That's why John Q. Public doesn't care about "hackers" vs "crackers" and "trekkies" vs. "trekkers," but people on computer networks will endlessly debate the distinctions.

    P.S. Someone mentioned "script kiddies." Awesome term! Really useful for d00dz who found a copy of AOHell on a web page.
  • It just occured to me that, given most Media companies have to cater to an audience, many of them might not want to use the word "cracker" due to its racist background. I can see it now:

    "Crackers Break Into Maryland Bank"

    Now, most people on this list would think of the computer cracker, but the majority of the people in America probably would think this was a racist title. You know the paper or magazine that printed this story could get deep trouble for it.

    Am I off base here?
  • Just a little loose thought:

    If a hacker is only a hacker when another hacker calls him as such then there are no real hackers, since the first hacker is a fraud since no hacker has called him a hacker.

    --
    "take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"

  • Re:stop misusing "cracker" (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Fine, but could you stop abusing the term cracker? Crackers are people who crack software, and don't want to be lumped in the same category with someone else any more than you hypocrites do.

    Well, for software, people come with standard/clever protection schemes, and crackers have fun breaking them. For systems, people come with standard/clever protection schemes and intruders have fun breaking them. Both activities are illegal (albeit reverse-engineering protection of program might not be in some countries). From hackers' point of view both are similar; albeit of course not identical.

    A solution is to use the names "software cracker" and "system cracker" (can be generalized to "house crackers", kids intruding into houses, or thiefs, etc...), and as usual, when only one of these meaning is used from the context, to use just "cracker"


  • Hmm... a hardware engineer who can't code (what about VHDL ?), sounds a be strange these days. But this may be a valid exception.

    Are you saying that a systems engineer (i.e. someone who spec's, designs, assembles, installs and troubleshoots systems) needs to know how to program?

    They have a special name. They are called "mathematicians" ; not "hackers". Abstract algorithms has to do with design (so they are called designers ; but a designer should know how to code, otherwise it is a manager) or more often computer science (but then they are called "professors", not "hackers"

    Well, in that case, aren't people who can "code" called "programmers"? Or is an educational qualification in software engineering proof that you're a hacker?

    The Dodger

  • So what does hacking have to do with cracking and what do either have to do with computers? Computers are just a tool, hacking covers a lot more then computer systems and their security. Just because you can gain root on Joe Bob's porn server doesn't really mean you're a hacker. Computers are a tool, not a definitive medium that all hackers must know and all crackers must break into. People were cracking past security systems before Babbage was born. It could be said that fire was the first hack. I think people really don't understand what hacking entails, otherwise they would see this as a truly absurd discussion.
    What this whole debate (generally) is really about is whether or not hacking a computer necessarily entails breaking past it's security measures. I'd say that answer is obvious to everyone. For instance If I don't like the way a piece of software conducts itself I may attempt to change it, this would be a hack. Whether it's at the hardware or the software level, hacking your own box is still hacking and usually does not necessitate breaking past your own security. Some times you may want to change the way someone else's system behaves, or bypass it's occasionally arbitrary restrictions on the information held within it. You may hack this system, you may be hacking it to crack into it, like cracking into a safe. These two process are different, just often used together to gain access and break through the systems security. I don't see why the difference isn't obvious. It's the same as the difference between driving a car and hot wiring it. You may need to hot wire it in order to drive it more effectively, but no one is going to say, "hey look at that guy hot wire that car though the drive thru".
    Hacking is simply put, the implementation of superior knowledge to facilitate superior need (I hacked that car because I need to go faster).

  • Hack or Crack? (Score:3)

    by mong ( 64682 ) on Tuesday July 13, 1999 @02:01AM (#1806073) Homepage
    Yeah, sometime back, my beloved BBS was invaded for an hour or so by a small group of stupid sub-14yr Norwegian Kids - the ringleader claimed to be a "hacker". When I asked "what do you code", he got rather insulting and told me that I didn't know what I was on about.

    Earlier this year, I was on irc (sorry, but we all do it sometimes) and a 13yr old Turkish kid proclaimed himself as a "hacker" - refusing to admit that he was wrong and actually wanted to be a "cracker". He said "it's up to me what I call myself". On this basis, I'm a Nuclear Brain Engineer.

    The term "hacker" probably has a lot to do with the term "hack", a "hack" being a particularly dedicated journalist, or member of newsroom staff who slaves away to beat the deadline etc...

    The point? In my experience, people who wrongly call themselves "hackers" are either;

    • So young, that they believe that the mainstream media definition is the correct one.

    • or
    • So incompetent at "cracking" that they even get the terms wrong (this is often the case)


    None the less, ill-informity is nothing new, and nothing to get too heated about.

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *

  • Yeah, sometime back, my beloved BBS was invaded for an hour or so by a small group of stupid sub-14yr Norwegian Kids - the ringleader claimed to be a "hacker". When I asked "what do you code", he got rather insulting and told me that I didn't know what I was on about.

    So, are you saying that to qualify as a "hacker", you have to be able to "code"?

    The Dodger

  • Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit about the difference between a hacker and a cracker? I've been listening to the same sort of thing from trekkies for years ("I'm a trekker"), and I've no more sympathy for hackers than I do for trekkers.
    Language is a fluid thing, and it's controlled to a major extent by the media. If the TV calls you a hacker, then you're a hacker.
  • The distinction between "hacker" and "cracker" is a useful one
    I'm not saying that the distinction isn't useful, or that there isn't one. I'm saying that "hackers are bad" is one of those facts that Everyone KnowsTM.
    Toilets flush in the opposite direction down south, bridges collapse if soldiers don't break step, Armageddon is a great movie, hackers are evil bastards. These are truths, they're just not true.

  • Re:Hack or Crack? (Score:3)

    by jarod ( 15787 ) on Tuesday July 13, 1999 @02:30AM (#1806077)

    The point? In my experience, people who wrongly call themselves "hackers" are either;

    • So young, that they believe that the mainstream media definition is the correct one.
      or
    • So incompetent at "cracking" that they even get the terms wrong (this is often the case)


    In my experience the only people that I hear whine about some "big bad evil cracker guys" being called hacker are kids on Slashdot.


    You need to get over it already, HACKERS have never been referred to as crackers, except by you.


    I'm going to explain it one more time. Hackers are explorers, fiddlers, we like knowing what makes things tick, whether that be a computer, a phone system, a network, a squirrel's nervous system, etc... Hacker does NOT necessarily mean programmer. Crackers defeated software copyright protection.


    You've already lost

  • I'm not saying that the distinction isn't useful, or that there isn't one. I'm saying that "hackers are bad" is one of those facts that Everyone KnowsTM.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that. The term "hacker" already passes MomTest v1.0 (i.e. with my mom). Well, sort of. She's semi-computer-literate, but describes me as a "hacker" sometimes, even though I'm not really a coder in the strict sense of the word (I don't do C or Perl, but do DHTML, JavaScript, Apache junque, etc.).

    Toilets flush in the opposite direction down south,

    You mean...they don't? ;-)

    These are truths, they're just not true.

    All the more reason to jump on the ramparts and try and do battle to explain the difference. Sure, it gets tiring, but somebody's gotta do it.

    cya

    Ethelred

  • The thing is that if some hear you are a 'Hacker' they allready pressed the speed dial button on their phones or wonder if you were the one responsible for the last crash of their system!
    Even worse is that if you try to explain they care even less!


  • Personnally, I can't see how you can be a Hacker without any coding ability.


    Okay, so requirement #1 to be a hacker is an ability to code. Does it have to be a compiled language, or would a scripted language, like Perl do? What about Javascript?


    Any other requirements for being a "hacker"?


    The Dodger

    "I ask merely for information..."

  • If the TV calls you a hacker, then you're a hacker.

    Not quite true. The distinction between "hacker" and "cracker" is a useful one--to wildly generalize it, a "hacker" is essentially non-malicious, a cracker is not. Many (most?) of /.ers would describe themselves quite proudly as "hackers", and obviously do not take kindly to being portrayed in a negative light because of it.

    I see no reason, therefore, not to try and defend that distinction.

    cya

    Ethelred

  • Out of curiosity, what OSes does the US goverment use. I can imagine that there will be quite a few and I guess the newer ones all run NT. If that is so what will the implications be with BO2K out!!!
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Personally I dont like the word hacker because
    of the bad connotations. Makes me think of the
    l33t hax0rs.
    For programming i prefer the word "coder" as it
    sounds a lot better.
    Coder would be a great official substitute for
    "hacker".
    ---------------------------------- -------------
    "Annakin! Drop!"
    "What was that Mr Qu-" *SPLAT*
  • Nowadays, I call myself a "nerd".

    Dunno. "Nerd" was always too negative for me. So is "geek"...then again, maybe I'm old-fashioned. :-/

    cya

    Ethelred

  • Usually, yes a hacker is a coder. See, it's all about perceptions. I always think of hackers being particularly dedicated to improving, perfecting and tinkering via the mdeium of code.

    Personnally, I can't see how you can be a Hacker without any coding ability.

    Maybe a Cracker is an anti-Hacker?

    Mong.

    * Paul Madley ...Student, Artist, Techie - Geek *
  • The term "hacker" already passes MomTest v1.0 (i.e. with my mom)
    That's a good start, but let's face it; a mom is someone who'll tell all her friends that you're a Spacelord if that's what you insist you are.

    Sure, it gets tiring, but somebody's gotta do it.
    Tiring? It's positively Sisyphean. Especially when you consider that a lot of TV editors are fully aware of the difference, but to many people cracker is a fat Scots police psychologist; a hacker is a bad guy. TV time is too precious to waste on corrections, so the error is deliberately perpetuated in the name of advertising space.
    About the only place you'll see the correct term is where the journo wants to belabour the point.

  • Profiling on hacking/cracking at Defcon. (Score:3)

    by jcostom ( 14735 ) on Tuesday July 13, 1999 @03:09AM (#1806089) Homepage
    The various articles have been pretty well done, but have left out some interesting things that were going on at Defcon.

    First was the announcement by the Hack-Sec Klahn [hacksec.com] of their joint venture with IEC [getsecure.com] to put together an incedent response database based on profiling attackers. This is some pretty cool stuff..

    Also at Defcon was a group of cognitive psychologists that were interviewing DC attendees. They were looking for insight into hacker and cracker mentalities. I was a test subject (I hung up my black hat years ago..), and I saw several of my fellow hackers, as well as some crackers being interviewed. We talked about when I got started hacking (20 years ago on a VIC-20!), when I was the cool kid in town because I had the 1200 baud modem, motivations behind my work with clients (in general, not specifics, of course) in helping to lock down networks.

    I think that profiling efforts like this will be a great service to the infosec community for determining proper incident response techniques.

    The cDc guys were their typical loud, light-show assisted selves, and bo2k may or may not be the hacking tool of choice for owning Windoze boxes, but it is at the very least useful in the context of remote administration of Windoze boxen. As for the ISS commentary about it being "child's play", I'm reserving judgement until I have a look at the source and play with it in my lab. The ISS guys are typically straight shooters, but recall that they are also a publicly held company, thus have a serious PR group to consider. The ISS announcement is definitely PR driven, we just need to know if it's accurate.

    The l0pht guys announced "AntiSniffer", software to detect the presence of a sniffer (ie someone with a NIC in promiscuous mode, thus collecting every frame that passes over the wire) on a LAN. Cool stuff.


  • There isn't even agreement within the /. community and others like it about the precise differences between a "hacker" and a "cracker."

    On other /. discussions I've seen several options:

    Option #1:

    Hackers and crackers are nothing alike, and how dare you confuse the two!?

    Option #2:

    Hackers and crackers are two separate groups. Some hackers are crackers; some crackers are hackers. However, belonging to one category does not imply membership in the other. (This is my personal take on the subject.)

    Option #3:

    Crackers are a "specialized" form of hacker, but not all hackers are also crackers.

    Option #3a:

    Crackers are "immature" or "underdeveloped" hackers that either need to grow and mature or need to be ignored by the more "mature" hackers.

    Unfortunately, with all this confusion, we end up with Option #4: Just call 'em all hackers because it's less confusing.

  • From Marc Maiffret, cracker turned security professional:

    He said the raids have frightened some of the young hackers. [sic] ... "People are afraid," he said. "There is a lot of pressure to go legit."

    Good. This means the FBI crackdown is working. I'm generally skeptical about the "get tough on crime" approach, but it seems likely to work in the case of computer crime, in which the criminals are intelligent people with a potentially bright future: people with a lot to lose, and who know it.
    --

  • "If TV calls us hackers, then we're hackers..."

    Does that mean that if TV calls us "seamonkey breeders", then we're "seamonkey breeders"?

    "Informative" TV is mostly produced by clueless sensationalists for the mindless majority of the public. Next thing you know we're gonna have "hackers" (angry script kiddies) fighting it out on Jerry Springer.

  • >Toilets flush in the opposite direction down south
    Ewww... sounds messy! Glad ours go down up here in the north!
  • You may be right about "coder" having a better face image than "hacker", but it just doesn't carry the same feeling.

    Say these two things out loud:
    "I'm a coder"
    "I'm a hacker"

    Now, which one makes you want to sit back all night in front of your computer with a pack of cola? Some people may prefer to be generically called a "coder", but the "hacker" title carries alot more weight and culture.

  • Well... In its usual context I tend to translate hacker as being a bit different than just a coder. It's really more of "slightly obsessed specialist in some computer-related area". (as in a sendmail hacker or a Perl hacker) Those people who might use the term hacker but want to emphasize expertise usually switch to 'guru', but what word could we use to emphasize the commitment of being a hacker while disassociating from the whole negative cracker confusion? 'coder' is clearly inadequate. Perhaps fanatic? acolyte? Perhaps the reasonable thing to do is to pervert the usual meaning of some other term... "I'm a Perl nerd"?
  • For better or worse, custom is king when it comes to language usage. If the masses decide to call x a 'hacker', the a 'hacker' x is.

    There's always a slight chance that geekdom could maintain a distinction within geekdom, but even if we do so it will always be a matter of trade jargon, and unlikely to make a dent in the behavior of the public at large.

    Our best bet, I suppose, is to play on the current Star Wars mania, and instill in the public an awareness of the distinction between us and Dark Side 'hackers', so at least they won't confuse the world's most constructive geeks with the world's second-most destructive.

  • > According to the alt.folklore.urban faq

    I used to read that, but I finally came to the conclusion that they were merely replacing common tall tales with their own "official" tall tales.

  • > Toilets flush in the opposite direction down south,

    > You mean...they don't? ;-)

    I learned all about it on The Simpsons: they do everywhere down under except in the US embassies, where expensive machinery forces them to spin the other way, for patriotic reasons.



  • its all respect (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This makes me remeber back in the days of arpanet then it was a closed network between military/goverment and universites. Back in the dasy then everybody using InterNet had respect for the whole thing, you could leave your unix system wide-open with guest/guest or games/games acounts and let unknown people log in to play games, surf the web (lynx/gopher) or program/compile. no firewalls, no proxies, no care for security. All users had respect and enjoyed the net with all its services. Then came the commersialation and public of the net that ruined the whole InterNet community that existed on USENET and IRC, etc.

  • Cracks? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    When you had a game with copy protection on your C64 then some 31337 cracker group would figure it out and produced a cracked version of the game.

    As far as I remember, the "cracker/hacker" definitions given today by your friendly neighborhood free software hacker was cooked up a few years ago (can't remember who it was). Previous to that, I do not believe there was such a distinction and in fact, the term "cracker" was reserved mostly for programs who would break the copy protection of your game.

  • I wouldn't even give them as honorable a name as cracker. Script Kiddie fits so much better. One kid around here "discovered" FTP and thought he had broke into our systems once. No, he simply logged in with his username and password, and had all the usual access that brings.

  • Well, a discussion about the meaning of Hacker was forced to arrive on /. with this article i guess ;)

    Yes a word can have many senses in different context but the problem is that hackers (in the definitions dating back to the 60's) and crackers (that call themselves hackers) are in the same context. Ok, not exactly the same but for people from outside (i.e. non-geeks) this is the same context: the computer world.

    given that for 90% of the population this is the same context this is bad to have a word to refer to two things when one of these is legal (hacking) and the other is illegal (cracking...unless you are a samourai (i.e. a hacker paid to make a security audit by tempting to crack his client)).

    Of course you may say that the word cracker also have another meaning: to rip off the copy protection of softwares in order to make warez.
    The fact that cracker has two meaning if we stick to call website-intruders crackers is less problematic for two reason:
    1. Both activities are underground and illegal.

    2. You can consider the act of cracking as being the act of breaking a software security. Security against duplication or security against data intrusion.

    If the hacker (in the first computer meaning) scene was dead I would see no problem in calling website-intruders hackers because this would mislead nobody but because the hacker crowd is far from being dead I see no reason why we should give up this meaning to them.

  • names (Score:1)

    by zenray ( 9262 )
    When the Security professionals misuse the term hacker to mean cracker there is no hope for mainstream people to know the difference. Try not to be to conserned about names. In the /. world you're not a hacker untill other hackers call you one - according to ESR, et al other hackers. This is based on your coding skill and how much you give bask to OSS. When a hacker stops coding how long is it untill they are no longer hackers? If other hackers need to call you a hacker before you are acknowledged as one, when they stop calling you a hacker are you no longer a hacker?
  • >Okay, so requirement #1 to be a hacker is an ability to code.

    more exactly, the requirement to be a COMPUTER HACKER is an ability to code.

    Hacking is the love of understanding things and constructing things. This can be in other fields than computer but this is mostly used in the computer world. of course this also have taken the meaning to destroy things now (meaning hackers are fighting against) but I don't refer to hacker with this meaning in this post.

    Knowing how to code is a requirement for a chacker in the computing field because you can't understand a computer if you never did some coding.

    So yes, a computer hacker most know how to code. this don't made all coders hackers and this is not needed to be your main activity (ESR is a hacker but I'm not sure he has got a lot of time to code these days). Hackers are people that generally consider coding like an art and do it for the sake of doing it as much as because they need it.

    If you want to know more about hacking check the hacker's howto, the loginataka and the jargon file . You can find them (or some link) on ESR webpage (check www.tuxedo.org/~esr et www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings)
  • bridges collapse if soldiers don't break step

    Hmmm....You imply that this is impossible. Wouldn't it happen if the soldiers happened to be marching at such a pace that they matched the bridge's resonant frequency? Ever seen footage of the Tacoma Narrows bridge collapsing? All it took was a nice steady breeze that happened to set up the wrong kind of resonance in the bridge.

  • the requirement to be a COMPUTER HACKER is an ability to code

    I don't know about that...I've seen some people who were really into circuitry.

    Other than that pickiness, though, I'm inclined to agree with you. A hacker is not "someone who can code well", but a more general "someone who does something really well and loves doing it really well".

    Your reference to ESR's Hacker's Howto is a good one, and I was going to include a hyperlink to it, but I don't remember the exact url, and tuxedo appears to be /.'ed or something.


  • Yep, this is possible and this happened at least one time in France. I don't remember where exactly but given that most American (i say American, not /.ers) couldn't place their state on a map I wouldn't even begin to ask them to place another country on a map (France or another country) at the exception of Italy tha is easily recognisable with is boot-shape.
  • >Language is a fluid thing, and it's controlled to a major extent by the media.

    You are right. but why do the media call those we call crackers hackers? because they had the limelight before the hackers (the true ones) in the 80's (it's more interesting to talk about people cracking computers than to talk about people constructing things)so they had plenty of time to impose their definition. Now that the Free Software movement is gaining momentum this is a unique occasion for us to revert this trend and impose our definition.

    Oh, and why would our definition be more accurate than theirs? it's not more "accurate", it's a name, a label. It just occur that we used this word in this sense before and we love it so we want it back.
  • It seems that the same people who whine about "crackers" being called "hackers" will then go ahead and tell you that "seti@home was hacked"...

    I'm not even sure what "hacker" is meant to connotate - just a hardcore programmer, or someone who's expert level? When I started out professionally in the early 80's (UK), "hacker" was actually a negative term for a undisciplined programmer who didn't really know what he was doing. Only if you were obviously NOT a hacker would you ever call your activity hacking! (e.g. "I just hacked together an assembler last night" - somehow I doubt today's "hackers" are that good..).
  • You imply that this is impossible
    According to the alt.folklore.urban faq (my primary source for such things), it's believed false.
    And that's good enough for me.
  • That's a good start, but let's face it; a mom is someone who'll tell all her friends that you're a Spacelord if that's what you insist you are.

    Er, well, I meant that she calls me one _without_ my prompting her to do so. I never told her "I'm a hacker" any more than I told her "I pick boogers from other people's noses".

    Anyway, just to clear that up.

    cya

    Ethelred

  • Just because a person has never had the desire to crack does not make them a dork. (Many would in fact argue exactly the opposite, that its those of you who need illegal activities to feel fufilled who are the 'dorks'!)

    There are many, many hackers who expend their time and skill in constructive programming pursuits: making more efficient utilities, writing games, sending useful scripts to their friends...

    Personally I'm relatively proficient in at least six programming languages, but have just never had the desire to crack or engage in cracking. Perhaps I'm too tied up in this, or really am more oddball than I believe, but I'll need to see some evidence before I accept that.

    I'll agree pretty much wholesale with your last paragraph, but I don't see how that applies to the issue at hand, which is that a perfectly reasonable word denoting dedication and expertise is being corrupted with negative connotations, and we don't have a good replacement. The only options I see are:
    1) create a new word without the negative connotations to replace the traditional use of 'hacker'.
    2) fight these negative connotations as they are being established (what many here are trying (somewhat futilely) to do).
  • The meanings for the words Hacker, and Cracker do seem to have changed over the years. I used to call myself a cracker because I cracked the copy protection on various programs. This required a great deal of programming skill, and a thorough understanding of the operating system, and some hardware.

    I also did alot of coding, and never tried to hack into anything.

    Of course, this was 10+ years ago.. The word doesn't mean anything, its the respect associated with the word that means something..

  • When does the language change? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I read a lot on this site about people "incorrectly" calling computer criminals hackers. But remember, languages change over time, for no reason other than everyone's using the words in a different way. Remember when "gay" meant "happy?"
    So my question is, How long before we give up, accept that "hacker" means "computer criminal" in the dialect used by the rest of the country, and start using that dialect ourselves to communicate more clearly?
  • "I want to get to know the hacker community better," he said. "These
    people are America's future."

    Is this because so many of them are kids or because they "know" computers? I do know that the job I currently do (and probably 74%) of IT jobs will be done by normal employees who have lots of comp. exp. in another 10 years or so.
    Most of it just isn't that difficult.

    Anyway, just because it's now obligatory, I consider myself a hacker, in the sense that I don't know how to be subtle and hack the crap out of code as if with a dull ax. Crackers are silly white folks.

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