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The XMMS Future in an interview with Dev 50

Posted by Hemos from the we-look-and-sound-good dept.
Hexdancer wrote to us with the latest interview at theLinux MusicStation with Dev Mazumdar, co-founder (with Hannu, the guy who wrote the original OSS kernel sound drivers) of 4Front Technologies the commercial Linux/Unix sound driver guys. He's talking about the future of XMMS, and trying to make sound w/XMMS a killer app for Mac/Windows people, as well as the problems with working with some of the high end sound cards.
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The XMMS Future in an interview with Dev More

The XMMS Future in an interview with Dev

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  • ALSA GPL good (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Disclaimer: I'm not an ALSA person. I follow their mailing lists, and know Alan Cox personally (maintainer of the OSS/Free code, second in command to Linus), but otherwise I only speak for myself.

    My understanding is that ALSA has Alan's blessing, and Alan's blessing will basically imply Linus' blessing once it's finished.

    The GPL should not be a problem. Binary-only drivers (as SBLive!) lock users into a specific kernel version. This isn't so bad now, when you are usually only a few minor versions behind. However, when Creative releases their next sound card, and stops supporting the SBLive!, you'll eventually have to ditch your sound card, ditch Linux, or stay major versions behind. When people realize this, the ability for binary-only won't seem so important. You also don't see non-GPL in any other arenas (ethernet, etc.) in the Linux kernel, and there's no reason sound should be different.

    It is my impressino that as far as Alan, and most of the other kernel developers are concerned, it looks like OSS will be obsoleted, despite 4Front's commercial interest to the contrary. Linus hates binary-only in the first place anyways (see some of his posts on the topic).

  • Re:x11amp and XMMS? Gqmpeg! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Some of us don't buy CD's because of MORALS, dude! Like, $23 for a CD, when an artist only gets $1 is joke!
  • I can't be certain, but I've hear rumours to the effect that ALSA will be replacing OSS in the kernel, maybe for 2.4. NOTE: this was being discussed on the kernel mailing list back around 2.1.125 or so, and I don't think Linus got involved in the discussion, but Alan Cox did (brief comment saying it was desirable). As to the GPLedness of the API, I really don't know. I haven't looked that closely as it doesn't matter to me. I'm not sure, but I think the API being GPLed is irrelevant (Linux's API is GPLed, AIUI) so that shouldn't be the problem. If you really mean the libs, well, the API is documented, so any vendor wishing to interface to ALSA can create their own. Defeats the purpose of a library I know, but I believe a political statement is being made (assuming the libs are GPLed rather than LGPLed).

    Maybe alsa-project.org got slashdotted?

  • Does #include count as linking?
    I don't know. I've seen discussions of this somewhere (egcs mailing list? can't remember) and I think #include does count as linking, but I'm not certain.
  • How is a clone of Windows software supposed to draw people from Windows to Linux? They could just run the original software and stick with Windows.

    Perhaps there's something about XMMS I'm missing? Is there anything it provides that doesn't exist in an equivalent Windows tool?
  • Winamp is uncrippled shareware that costs $10 to register. Legally and ethically, it costs $10. In practice, most people use without paying.

    As for performance, I don't see a problem with Winamp. It consistantly uses less than 5% CPU on my pII 266, and uses very little RAM. It has a fully customizable interface, and you can modify virtually everything, even including the mp3 decoding (if you want to write your own mp3 decoder plugin to replace Nitrane).

    It's never crashed on me.
  • To the best of my knowledge, one just opens /dev/dsp (or whatever its alsa counterpoint is; forgive me for my memory is less than good) and uses the common ioctls. What Alsa does is both give backwards-compatibility through /dev/dsp, but also Alsa-compatibility through different devices. You don't need to use its header file, as far as I know.

    However, if the Alsa guys were to make an AlsaLib, that would be different...

  • I don't know, I guess OSS and 4front rub me the wrong way. I don't see XMMS becoming a huge program capable of playing movies, sound, and having vis plugins as a good thing. Isn't the idea to have small, efficient programs?

    However, this really bugged me.

    If you look at asound.h - they always refer to OSS as "Obsolete" - except the irony is that 99.99% of the apps are OSS and ALSA support has to be bolted on. We have remained silent about this because it's unprofessional to dis other people's hard work.
    Well, to tell the truth, if ALSA does its job, OSS is obsolete. If it is what everyone wants, supporting new cards and new features (I like multiple-open of the sound card!!) OSS will go the way of the dinosaur.

    However, it isn't that way right now, and while ALSA is working on obsoleting OSS, the majority of programs were developed in the time when OSS was the only solution. How else can you support ALSA but by adding its support? (If you need to bolt it on, your program is broken to begin with.)

    As for the whole proprietariness.. I'm more mad at sound card vendors than 4front. Obviously if a sound card vendor is brain damaged enough not to release specs, support has to come somehow.. Even so, as ``pragmatic'' as the 4front guys are, they are selling something which should be Free. By using binary-only drivers, you're tying yourself to one or two kernel versions, and if 4front went out of business (probably not going to happen, but within the realm of possibilities) you're up the proverbial polluted tributary without a means of locomotion.

    Personally, I hope alsa's header files stay GPL'd. The ALSA development team has worked hard to create an entirely Free set of sound card drivers, and I'm one who thinks that people should come to us on our terms, not any other way. Our way is the GPL, so do what Trident did and release GPL'd drivers, or do what .. creative used to do .. and release detailed specs on the card so we can release GPL'd drivers. Anything else is undesirable and difficult to work with.

  • If they can only sustain 3 full time people that says a lot about the level of interest in commercial audio on UNIX. Operations in the Windows world usually have double digit full time staffs.
  • Mayby there are other advantages to mp3. E.g. I have terrible dicipline, and cannot help scratching my CD's. Having all my music on a HD enables me to protect my music from myself.

    The size of an mp3man is also a good argument.

    As for players, I like Freeamp :-)

  • OSS vs OSS/free (Score:3)

    by mattdm ( 1931 ) on Monday July 26, 1999 @03:45AM (#1784812) Homepage
    I'm sort of annoyed by the fact that the commercial product has advanced features they won't put into the free (both senses) one. But I can see that that's entirely within their moral rights etc., etc.

    What I really hate is the way there's bugs in the free drivers which don't exist in the commercial ones. For example, the free CS4236 driver has a problem where (even if the module is already loaded) the speaker pops loudly every time a sound begins playing. The commercial driver works perfectly.

    I guess my point is: it's slighly annoying to have features withheld for commercial gain, but withholding fixes to sell more product seems sleezy.

    --

  • Re:OSS vs OSS/free (Score:3)

    by mattdm ( 1931 ) on Monday July 26, 1999 @03:45AM (#1784813) Homepage
    sleazy, even.

    --

  • Hannu made two versions, OSS/Free which was GPL-ed, and commercial OSS. He refused to put certain features in the free version as that would have destroyed the market for his paid version which had those features. Eventually, people got sick of someone holding back Linux' development for the sake of his commercial product, and ALSA was created, with Hannu bypassed as the kernel sound developer. Sorry, Hannu, but in my opinion you had a conflict of interest.

    The GPL on the alsa.h file is not a problem for applications or kernel sound driver modules. Linus specifically makes an exception to the GPL for drivers that are loaded as modules (which must call into the GPL-ed kernel APIs) and in the same document where he makes that exception, he states that applicaitons that run on top of the Linux kernel are not derived works of the Linux kernel and need not be GPL-ed.

    Thanks

    Bruce

  • If you want a small, limited mp3 player, there are plenty out there. When you load plugins dynamically, you don't necessarily loose effiency. XMMS is trying to be something more, for good or bad, it is tying to really grow into its name. If nothing else it makes it more interesting than yet another mpg123 frontend. Personally, I'm happy that it now acts as a nice mp3/wav/mod player, and look forward to seeing what else they can do.
  • Perhaps the moderator guidelines need definitions added.

  • It has the mikmod engine as a standard plugin. In fact, that's the same module engine Winamp's module plugin uses.
  • Only reason the CVS ain't public is due to I host it on one of my mashines and I don't have the bandwith to host a public XMMS CVS server.. so there you go.. set us up with a FAST CVS server we'll have it public!!

  • ALSA (Score:2)

    by Fizgig ( 16368 )
    Is the ALSA API really GPL'd. While that seems very nice, surely it will inhibit acceptance of the API and the amount of support it will receive; they're not exactly in a position to dictate terms, are they? Or has Linus blessed them? It just seems like an X-style license would be more approriate. Any ALSA people reading want to explain the decision (I have no doubt they put some thought into this)? Also, any reason alsa-project.org is down?
  • I see. Well, the interview mentions alsa.h being under the GPL and this being a problem. Does #include count as linking?
  • somebody moderate this one down. some people read /. from work, where they scan proxy logs for things like porn sites (like the link that this asshole posted is to)
  • But will non-GPL programs (not necessarily proprietary-- think BSD, MPL et. al.) be able to use ALSA? Or is alsa.h (asound.h?) only needed to hack a sound driver?

    (My concern is with apps that just play sound-- if they HAVE to be GPL'ed, should they be targetted to ALSA, then there's a bit of a problem there)
  • I guess the header was a little unclear. The article states that XMMS will draw users FROM Mac and Win TO Linux. Sounds like a good idea to me!
  • What the hell are you buy on cd? I buy the cd's because the bands need support. But I don't deal with any of that major label bull, so the bands do get the support they need.

  • TECHNICALLY xmms is not a port.. it is a clone.. a port requires source code of the original :) Besides, after reading the article you find out that xmms is going into the video playback arena to more closely fit its new name (hard to be a 'multi-'media system when all you do is play audio...
  • I was kindof interviewing a member of the devlopment team informally on IRC out of curiosity, he mentioned quicktime (yes, even 4.0) and mpeg video, but not indeo and stuff... for mpeg they are using the mpegtv SDK, according to this guy.. I have no idea about the others, but of course they *have* to be binary-only... I think it would be cool to work with xanim and try to make the video codec archicecture binary compatible with xanim's... then things would take off much faster and have a better support base.. Of course the feasibility of this might be low... but then again, xanim is opensource so the loader code is right there for exanimination, and since this is a completely new feature, I don't see how it could be infeasible..
  • Well, I can see it, as long as we forget that XMMS is for X :) I personally think development towards windows would be a waste of resources, they already have these tools... I think the community would best be served by focusing on linux and trying to make a good multimedia player.. with the audio flexibility of what was x11amp, the video flexibilty of xanim+mtv, and the interface features of mtv (full-screen playback is cool), then there would be far fewer complaints about multimedia lacking in linux..
  • Despite all the supposed good intention of buying x11amp, I suspect a bit more sinister motives... They already shut down the cvs server to the public (public access only through tarballs). And the statement about the mpeg support already being done obviously indicates that development isn't released even to the cvs available to the public. I see this as closing development off bit by bit... My extremely paranoid theory is that they saw OSS being overtaken by ALSA in the future, and will be closing it up and making it a commercial product in the future.. Well, even if they did it, if they made xmms a good product with true multimedia support that would interface with ALSA, I would be tempeted to buy it, provided that they conduct business sanely. I see a lot of comments of comments talking about how evil OSS is because they don't make all their source code available and free of charge. I think it is stupid that people REQUIRE that a person give away this/her work in order to be accepted. GPL is nice, but after someone earns a reputation, they ought to be able to sell a product without being put down.
  • 4Front made the following claims wrt ALSA:

    1. ALSA copied the OSS API and added a couple of things to it.

    2. ALSA is for experimenters, not people who need commercial support

    3. ALSA's use of the GPL will taint every product that uses it.

    4. ALSA is spreading FUD about OSS, calling OSS "obsolete".

    5. OSS hasn't challenged the claims in 4 publically, because polite people don't dis others hard work.

    6. ALSA has managed to come up with a decent MIDI interface, which OSS will take and credit the ALSA team for.

    Item 5 confuses me. I mean, except for the MIDI stuff, all the 4Front rep did was dis ALSA. He acted as if the unreleased ALSA as is now in development was a reasonable thing to compare to a released, commercial product -- ALSA doesn't have software mixing, but OSS does (yet software mixing is a major things ALSA will have that OSS/lite lacks); ALSA is for adventurous developers only, without any commercial support (true, but it's a system in development, not released yet), etc.

    Who is spreading FUD?
  • hey, if i can run all my Windows programs (WinAmp, Netscape, et al) I will. That, and GiMP will soon make me a convert. But, for now, I'll stick with Windows. (My ethernet card isn't supported by Linux, and I'm too lazy to do anything about it. But when my laptop arrives...)


    ..................................@ @
  • The OSS/free may be obsoleted (a good thing - all principles aside, having something which is related to a specific commercial product in the kernel is confusing) but OSS is another matter. As long as hardware vendors want somebody who they can sign an NDA with, we're going to need an alternate available with the pragmatic attitude, as another poster put it, of 4front. Some people have posted vehemently that it shouldn't work like this, but unfortunately it does. We need to keep the ability to have binary-only drivers for a fall-back position if the only other option is not to support certain hardware at all.

    Once Linux is a major platform, existence of binary vs. open source drivers will begin to be a selling point for hardware, instead of something that only a handful of people are concerned with. At that point at least some vendors will notice that cards with open-source drivers are selling better, and there will be enough choice that the community can begin pushing ALSA as the One True Way without worrying about cutting off the best cards. Right now we just don't have the numbers to convince anyone.

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