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Internet Tax Moratorium Over? 209

Posted by Roblimo from the still-time-to-fight-it dept.
clawson writes "Looks like Congress just can't resist it anymore. This story, mentioned in The Naked PC e-zine, is in ComputerWorld. Yeah, right, the tax will go to fund teacher salaries. This is pretty lame when the current congressional mindset is pretty much doing what it can to ensure that there aren't TOO many smart people in the future, but lots of semi-literate, idiotic consumeroids."
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Internet Tax Moratorium Over? More

Internet Tax Moratorium Over?

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  • They get you someplace else. I spent a year in Texas once. No income tax, but car registration was high as hell. Delaware has no sales tax, but big highway tolls and some other "hidden" fees. Commercial limo licenses there, for example, are high as hell.

    BTW, Maryland (where I live now) *theoretically* has the power to levy sales taxes on items bought out of state and shipped here, no matter how you ordered those goods. Now and then a state official rants about this, but then someone saner realizes that enforcement would cost more than any revenue enforcement could possibly generate and the idea dies down for a year or two.

    If you want to see a *real* tax rip, check hotel taxes. Tourists don't vote, and locals don't usually stay in local hotels, so they're easy to levy without getting flak. They're over 10% in some places, including some states and localities that have low or no sales or income taxes -- and no, you don't get to duck the tax if you reserve the room online.
  • ...and taxed again if you invest the income and make money off of it

    ...and taxed yet again if you use that money to buy something

    ...and taxed again if you leave that something to your children after you die

    ...and taxed again if they sell it and make money

    Many people will be paying taxes on their income long after they've died.

    I'm not averse to paying taxes in general, there's a lot of things government can do better than me. What I do resent is the absolute duplicity, misdirection and outright lying the government uses to hide how much they are really taking. It started with Income Tax withholding in the 40's and gets worse every year.
  • If we can be mature enough to set aside the usual ridiculous arguments that get thrown around every time someone mentions the possibility of a tax on Internet commerce ("No fair! Shipping makes up for no taxes!!") and defending teachers' rights to decent salaries, the entire concept of enacting a federal sales tax on Internet transactions is ludicrous.

    Local sales taxes (state or city) serve to benefit the municipality in which the item was purchased. If the state is unable to collect, given the prohibition on regulating interstate commerce, that would be the inherent problem, but replacing those lost local taxes with a federal tax does very little to help the state. Yes, some small part of the money would eventually "trickle down" to the local level, but on the whole, the state loses out. The consumer loses out too, by being penalized for seeking better prices and more convenient shopping. Finally, the Internet merchant loses out when unable to compete with local brick-and-mortars. It's a classic Federalist approach which only impedes fair trade and open markets.

    Of course, all of the above presumes that sales taxes are a Good Thing (tm) for local municipalities. Here in NYC, sales go through the roof during the few weeks of the year that sales tax on clothing is suspended; the rest of the time, consumers simply cross the bridge to shop in New Jersey. There's no clearer demonstration that sales taxes only hurt the economy.

    If the government wants/needs to tax my income, fine. It's got to get its money from somewhere. I have no problem with high income tax in order to provide needed communal services. But to punish someone for keeping the economic flow in motion runs contrary to all logic.

    - Richie

  • Because of the way the odds are setup, it is sometime said that the lottery is a tax on people who aren't good at math. OTOH, the money will help the schools. Duh. I guess the key is to just teach two of the R's, reading, riting, and forget the rithmetic.

    But there could be some real nice benefits from an internet tax. The money raised could pay for the printing and distribution of Ten Commandment Posters! Or better yet, it can go to purchasing new science books that don't mention evolution! And if they do increase teacher salaries, then the NEA can raise union dues so that they can give more campaign contributions to the politicians. It's a win-win solution!

  • yo fool, origin of USA was revolt against excess government, including taxation, gun confiscation, and otherwise heavy-handed misgovernment. Which seems to be in vogue lately.

    And we don't derive rights from Constitution neither - it only guarantees already-existing rights (subtopic: 10th article of Bill of Rights could be construed as preventing even constitutional amendments which remove rights).

    Primary ostensible purpose of salestax is to retire bonds. In many cases the shell game of fund accounting allow local governments to plead empty pockets with millions or billions tucked away under the hat.

    It's always acceptable to question motives of those advocating of taxation...don't you think?
  • Improper reference to Big Brother there. Think about it.
  • GEEEZ, Folks !!

    Y'all have GOT to pay MORE attention !
    This bill was introduced on 07/26/99,
    and reported on 08/02/99.

    Also, it doesn't JUST tax Internet sales,
    It takes the SAME piece from ALL
    interstate commerce. Order by phone,
    by mail, by internet, by carrier pigeon,
    etc..

    Like I've always heard: There's not much
    we'll stand for, but we'll SIT through anything !

  • You do realize that there's not much difference between an electronic transaction including/excluding sales tax, and an electric register (or manual) transaction including/exclusing sales tax?

    The states that levy sales taxes also have enforcement divisions, and from time to time you do find a business that has been cheating. (Since generally businesses reimburse the government in lump sum payments representing the tax for many, many transactions, it is always tempting for a tenuous business to hold back some of that cash for itself -- something like adjusting withholding. You end up owing the same amount of tax; it's just a matter of whether you've paid it or not.)

    Right now, the government DOES have the right to come in and examine your books, if they suspect tax cheating. So this really has little "internet" relevance.
  • Income tax. If you live in Oregon, you "get" to pay federal income tax as well as state income tax. In Washington, we don't pay state income tax, but we do have one of the highest sales tax rates of any state in the union. It all works out the same in the end.

    -B
  • Yeah why is this being talked about again??
  • unless the gummint is prepared to accept the receipts of electronic businesses and take on faith that they are accurate,
    Why wouldn't they do that?

    When a brick-and-mortar business reports a certain amount of income coming from cash transactions, the government takes those reciepts on faith, unless the auditor has a reason to suspect fraud.

  • The whole concept of internet tax is a joke. And to the delusional fweeb that said we need this tax? Get a clue for starters no tax is constitutional unless voted on and ratified by the people,go read YOUR constitution. Secondly why should I pay a tax for public schools if my children are in private schoool? Last time I checked that would be unconstitional taxation. There is only one way to handle crap like this,contact your senator and ask his/her opinion of the bill be sure to reference the Sentaor who posed it and then state your opisition. Email is great too,however only about 50% of the senators of HOR Reps actually check it, so do both. If enough oppisistion is shown something will happen.

    BTW. If your in Atl Senator Coverdale opposes this tax

    Ned
    House Republicans 860-240-8700

    House Democrats 860-240-850

    Senate Republicans 860-240-8800

    Senate Democrats 860-240-8600

  • . . . and Indiana. Amusingly enough, the governor at the time (Evan Bayh) refused to buy the first lottery ticket as suggested by his media advisors. He knew the whole thing was a rip-off (and probably didn't approve personally of gambling).

    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • Yes, you do have to pay sales tax if the site you purchase from is in your own state. However, it is unconstitutional for Congress to pass a law levying a tax on inter-state trade. It is laid out that the Federal government can not do ANYTHING to regulate inter-state trade. Whether or not this would hold up, I am not sure, I'm not a lawyer. However, from the way I understand it, Congress "shouldn't" be able to levy this tax.

    Just a thought - anyone know for sure?

    "Life is too short to take seriously"
  • > You claim that the teachers work harder than techs? I don't see many teacher cars in parking lots till midnight (or even 5 PM for that matter) like I do in the office park where I work

    Not generically. Rather, I claim it's not uncommon. In teaching there's little reward even if you work hard. In tech fields the rewards are high even if you hardly work.

    Merit based pay might fix this, however so far the people who have proposed this for education want to base merit on really stupid things, like norm reference test score results.

    > the teachers work less than half of the days of the year and go home long before 5:00 PM

    ... long before 5:00 PM so they can cook dinner for their family and then stay up until 2am grading papers. (speaking, again, from the teachers I know personally).

    It's been pointed out previously that working only part of the year is a myth. Tons of preparation goes into being ready for the school year.
  • What a great idea to give the kids a better education...

    Pffft


  • If you buy over the internet from a company in your own state, and your own state already charges sales tax?

    George
  • This may be overly simplistic, but here goes:

    To paraphrase an FCC spokesman:

    The Internet is too big, too important, for Congress not to want to regulate it just for the sake of regulating it, simply because most Congressmen have egos that are too big to comprehend something such as the Net existing without them having some kind of control over it.

    Furthermore, Congressmen know almost nothing about the Net. Most of them are too old to think in terms of the Net, and even if they're not, they're not ever going to learn enough about it to avoid making stupid decisions about it.

    Case in point: How many times do you think Fritz F$%#ing Hollings has pulled up a website? It doesn't matter if it's him, Orrin Hatch, or Ted Kennedy, the answer's still going to be the same - squat.

    They're listening to lobbies that, by sheer signal-to-noise ratio, deemphasize the importance of cyberspace (such as the AARP, the NRA, and large business interests like agriculture and King Oil), and ultra-conservative constituents who are more worried about the potential of pornography to harm their children.

    They specifically DO NOT listen to 18-35 year olds who may or may not be cyber-sympathetic because only about 9% of those people actually VOTE in the elections that get them their jobs.

    And like your favorite upper management executive, knowing too much about any one thing obscures the "Big Picture" vision that made them such shining leaders in the first place, even when that one thing is to our society like factories were to their grandfathers'.

    The only way anything's going to change is if people who know something (about how beautiful and important is the Net) actually hold politicians accountable at the ballot box, not only for sensible policy about the Net, but for more than a casual knowledge of the Net. And if there are no politicians who can meet that qualification, to BECOME ONE.

    It frosts me neverending how many cake-eating artistes there are in my town who are my age and actually have sensible political insights, yet do nothing but bitch and complain. Meanwhile, I turn out for every election, vote my convictions (those of a free thinking 30-something who considers the Net extremely important and realizes that schools and transpo must be funded to function), and get my ASS handed to me every November 20th by all those semi-literate consumeroids someone mentioned a while back.

    I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir (at least, I damn well better be), but picking out some half-dead Net tax bill sponsored by some half-dead redneck Senator and then bitching about it is such a supreme waste of time.

    Instead, I recommend that each of us harasses and otherwise beats on ten of our young buddies until they show us their voter registration cards. Then we follow them to the polls in November (forcefully, if need be), and make sure they vote their convictions, whatever they may be. Until that starts happening a LOT, America is going to look less and less like we'd like it to.
    _______________________________________
  • Whatever. I pay taxes on a lot of stuff I buy via the net already (since they have offices in MA). The things I do buy usually have a better than 5% (MA local tax rate) difference between what I get online vs. meat world store, so I'm not going to quit buying some stuff online.
  • It's just one more reason we have to see as a collective that our governments are corrupt, fat, bloated, innefectual, stupid and clueless.

    Enjoy the winfall now, because what we have now is almost certain to crash down if we continue the things we live with today.
  • However, I don't see the point in taxing "the internet", per se. I mean, if you're going to do it, be fair about it...tax every out of state package, be it mail order, fax order, internet order, phoned in, whatever.

    I am going to have to smack you. ;) If they read /., they might get the idea to tax all of those methods.
  • Um Congress is in the August recess at the molment. So no bill has been submited at this point.
  • Well, we all knew this was coming. What I want to know, as a resident of the Great White North, is if this will increase prices for us Canadians?
  • if i operate a company out-side u.s., but major customers are americans, e.g. sell music on-line .. what can the government do?

    Any other government in the world having the similar tax?


  • What Congress gives, Congress can take away. This capriciousness without consequences is the definition of True Power.

    The three-year moratorium on new Internet tax may end prematurely if a new bill is passed ... Hollings' proposed bill infringes on the Internet Tax Freedom Act, enacted into law last October.
  • Help me out here, does any federal money go to
    pay teachers now? I don't know.

    If they aren't paying for teachers now, this law
    would allow them to start. And you know what
    happens when the feds put money into anything,
    they start to control it.

    If only we could vote!

    It's for the children! Won't you help?

    Kind of like the line the state govt. fed us about
    the lottery. The money will help the schools!


    Sheeple
  • -any dumbass can get a elementary edu degree.

    Introduction

    I attend Southwest Missouri State University [smsu.edu], which started life as Missouri Teachers' College or similar. Consequently, we have a pretty large Elementary Education contingent on campus, and I spent plenty of time in lower-level general education classes with them.

    Now, I make no claims to speak for everyone. However, I'd have to say that the E-Ed. group was, as a whole, the ditziest, least educated, and generally dumbest group around.

    A Personal Example

    As a non-traditional student, I live off-campus and work full-time to provide for myself. At one point, I was spending my evenings and nights behind the front desk of a local motel (0) - many of them with an E-Ed. major, "Jenny". She was a very sweet and kind girl, but as dumb as the proverbial box of rocks. Dim. Slow. Whatever; she was it. Anyway, I helped her with a lot of her homework, because motel work isn't exactly the most intellectually stimulating thing you can find yourself doing. Unfortunately, neither was said homework. I'd swear on a stack of Bibles that her pre-exam study sheet for "Geography for Educators" class was a U.S. map with blanks for you to write in the states and their capitals.

    Jenny was struggling.

    Yep, that little exercise you whipped out in what, 3rd grade?, was almost her undoing.

    On one occasion, another co-worker ("Mindy") was helping Jenny with her math homework, when suddenly J. started getting upset. "Well, just because you're some kind of genius doesn't mean that I can't be smart, too", says she. What had Mindy done? She made a practice worksheet of fractional arithmetic (you know, 1/2 + 1/4, 2/3 x 3/8, etc.). Mindy was so surprised that Jenny was completely stumped, that she couldn't help but to start laughing.

    I thought that maybe Jenny was just a slow learner, until she graduated with a 3.8x GPA (out of 4) - on the Dean's list, and all. She wasn't a slow student; she was one of the star performers.

    Conclusion

    As I said, I full well expect others' experiences to be different than mine. (2) The above are just what I've seen first-hand. I fully believe that at least one school is slapping degrees on the dumbest students on campus, and these slow-burners are then going out and teaching our children. I don't have a teaching degree, but I'm confident enough in myself (especially compared to some others) that I plan to home-school my children.

    Refs

    (0) Which is actually not bad work, if you're more interested in people-watching and being alone with your schoolbooks than you are in a large paycheck.

    (1) Disclaimer - I have no interest in arguing my opinions, for that reason.

  • ...when I check the price/availability on line, and then call in my order? Lots of those online "malls" have 800 #'s buried in their website somewhere...
  • The fundamental grievance behind the Revolution was taxation without representation. If the government of Buttscratch, Kansas wants me to pay sales taxes (with or without Federal proxies), they can bloody well give me the same vote as a Buttscratch resident. Otherwise, no dice.
    /.
  • Bend over for gates? Yeah right. I think you're the one bent over (with your head up your ass). Last time I checked schools weren't buying hardly any software, and when they did they used it until it was 5 years obsolete. So yeah they could not use windows software, so they could possibly give each teacher another $50/year. Of course then they'd have to hire a bunch of linux people to setup the computers, not to mention the fact that 99% of high schoolers wouldn't be able to use it. I hate the people that hate MS just for the sake of hating MS. Get your head out of your ass.
  • You do not have a Constitutional right to freedom from taxation. Right to free speech? Check. Protection from unreasonable searches? Check. Right to not be taxed? Not in there.

    Amendment IX: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

  • Count yourselves lucky... They promised us that not only would lottery money go to help schools (which it hasn't in any noticeable amount), it would go to reduce taxes (which it hasn't) and fund economic development (which has been a big joke).

    They fed us the same line when they pushed through horse and dog racing. "This time for sure" they would raise enough money to keep their promises. Until the horse tracks went belly-up (leaving the taxpayers on the line to pay the bonds).

    Then they fed us the same line when they pushed through slot machines at the horse tracks (to bail them out) and riverboat gambling.

    We still aren't seeing the money go where they promised it. What has happened? All the money seems to go to construction companies, vendors and advertising agencies, all of whom are owned by political cronies.

    All of the "economic development" money seems to go to either big companies that use extortion techniques to get it ("either we get money or we move our plant" "either we get money or we will locate our locate our new plant somewhere else"), or startups that are owned by political cronies that go out of business as soon as the grant money dries up (after spending most of the money on executive salaries and "consulting" fees).

    State sponsored gambling has definitely brought out government at its worst here. Gambling in general is only a win for an area when it can bring in significant tourist dollars (like it does for Nevada and New Jersey) to offset all the problems it causes in-state. Its a total pipe-dream that gambling will ever turn a midwestern ag state into a tourist draw, so it is a major losing proposition here.

    I'm not anti-gambling in general, or on principle, but it sure isn't delivering on its promises here.

  • Try buying or renting a house there, and you'll find out.

    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • And the internet is international. How do you impose taxes on that?

    If a company has a web site in Canada, but operates in the US, how do you collect taxes from them? The sale, in traditional terms, took place it Canada.

    I agree that money needs to be generated, and it's NOT pleasent, but to try to tax something like online sales is silly. The medium is international, and NOT simply the US..
  • Here in Seattle, we (the taxpayers) are paying for a $500M baseball stadium that was VOTED DOWN in the first place. Meanwhile, our public school teachers had to go on strike for a measly 5% salary raise, which (if I remember correctly) they did not get. If state and local goverments had their priorities straight in the first place, nobody would even be talking about a ludicrous and unconstitutional internet tax.

  • I'm not rich, but I'd put "paying less taxes" in the Good Thing column.

    And I've still never had a non-liberal explain how a "regressive" (1) tax hurts the poor/unemployed more than the rich/employed.

    (1) Regressive - flat, constant, equal, fair. Pick one or more: in this case, they all apply.

  • >Okay, so they only work 9 months a year. But for those 9 months, it's very often 50-60 hour weeks.
    >Then you've got the inflexibility of the job itself. No vacation time (aside from when everyone else is on vacation), limited sick time, and few real freedoms during the day (can't skip out early for lunch, for example, limits on phone calls, and so on).
    >In NY, I believe you need at least a masters in education before you can take the teaching exam.

    At my former school, teachers worked approximately 200 days a year( 180 school + conferences ) which means they get 165 days off a year. The starting salary is 30k yr + benefits for a half year's work. In NY you only need a teaching certificate, which simply requires taking the test( most people have 4 years of college ), you don't need a masters. As for the priveledges, I manage a restaurant and I'd love all weekends off( fact is, it's been since 1994 since I had a full weekend off ), summers off, all holidays off, paid medical, etc. I get 55 hour weeks, ignorant people who've never washed dishes and need to be taught, limited sicktime, no phone calls, can't leave early, etc and I get paid less than these teachers do( in addition to working on my comp eng degree ) for their half a year's worth of work.
  • So you would rather have EVERY state be as fucked up as the rest? I'm sorry but I think the Federal system of government is a good idea. If one state goes too far, there is always the option of moving out of state. Likewise, if another state offers you a better deal, move there. Competition is good. The founding fathers knew this.
  • How does "implied powers" apply to this?
  • Yes...they have students 9 months of the year, plus a week before and after the students come/go.

    And during those 8 hour days, they don't get to leave the campus - have to be on duty almost the whole time, and are usually busy with something or another during their "break" and planning time...and since they don't actually get to do any of the work preparing for their classes while at work, they have to spend a lot of (personal) time at home doing this work.

    Where the hell do you get your "facts"?

    The only fact I've seen is that you are proof that education needs some work.

  • This is a federal sales taxe like the jackass
    Forbes is promoting. Mr Forbes wants a flat income
    tax and when asked about lost revenues he talks
    about some sort of VAT like the Europeans got
    screwed with. The VAT is the biggest shaft
    a government can do to the population as you
    get taxed on anything you buy or do.

    People shouldn't be too concerned about this
    one at this time for a couple of reasons.
    The elections are very close and congressmen don't
    want to be easy targets at the next elections
    since they know that people are alergic to taxes.

    As for double taxation, if that ever happens
    you should realize that there are precedents
    to that. Look in Canada for instance, they have
    a federal tax called T.P.S. which is about 7.5%
    and a provincial tax T.V.Q. which is about 7.5%

    First the federal tax is calculated and you
    add the amount to the tax. Then you calculate
    the provincial tax on that.

    Even if we were to get that stupid 5% tax we
    would still be ahead of Europeans and Canadians
    who pay 17% and 15% VAT on products and services.
    We would still have among the lowest taxes
    in the world.

    This tax isn't likely to go anywhere, the moron
    who presents the tax project is in the minority.
    I don't think he has much support among his
    fellow democrats, let alone among the republicans.
  • Teachers first, then students. You want to put all those teachers through tech training?
  • This is always the objection liberals raise, and it is always false. Every national sales tax plan includes a universal rebate system, which gives X dollars per year to every person or family. This way poor people effectively pay zero or negative taxes, because the sales tax they do pay is more than offset by the rebate. Richer people spend more, so even if they get a rebate they still wind up paying. When a liberal says that a national sales tax is regressive, he is lying through his teeth. He just doesn't want the IRS deprived of its power over American citizens. (I'm not accusing the previous poster of trying to mislead anyone, the universal rebate component is not as well publicized as it should be, so it is easy to come to that conclusion if you hear the simplistic explanation of the sales tax.)
  • The Federal government has _no_ right to take income taxes at all, and rely largely on ignorance of the law in order to collect them.

    Indeed, the government did not have the right to levy income taxes until congress passed and the states approved the 16th amendment:

    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

    This was approved in 1913. I'm afraid you're a bit behind the times. Nothing about taxes needing to be "voluntary."

    My opinion: Down with sales taxes, from federal, state, or local governments, in stores real or virtual. They take a larger chunk out of the pocketbooks of people who spend more, and people with lower incomes have to spend a larger portion of their income. Progressive income taxes are a fairer method of taxation.
  • Property taxes are just wrong. I mean, on one hand the government encourages property ownership by giving you tax breaks on mortgage interest. On the other hand they have property taxes. Talk about mixed messages and disincentives. Let's all just sit around in homeless shelters....
  • It costs $79.99 in a store, so you must owe someone $3.99. Maybe I'll just buy my teacher sister-in-law a beer instead.
    Now _there's_ somebody who knows what they're talking about, and how ridiculous this whole affair is.. at least, IMO.
  • So you never went to school?

    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • I don't understand the whole idea of taxing one to make money (income tax) and then taxing them on spending that same money...
    Well, theoretically, the government could get all of its revenue from one tax (an import duty, an income tax, a sales tax, a property tax, whatever). However, such a tax would run into two political problems:
    • The tax would be very large, and therefore there would a large incentive for people to evade it, legally or illegally. For example, if the US government got all its revenue from a sales tax, then people would have a powerful incentive to spend as little money within the US as possible, which would not be good for many US-based businesses.
    • The political interest groups who engaged in the taxed transactions would envy those who did not. For example, if the only taxes were on imports, then managers of companies that purchase lots of imported goods would envy the companies that do not depend on imports; eventually, they would translate that envy into political lobbying.
    • Since "socialist" is a dirty word in the US political culture, a legislature is more likely to pass a tax break to benefit a given group than to pass an outright grant of money -- even when, from an economist's point of view, the two are equivalent.
  • First off, a US-directed sales tax on Internet-distributed goods is great if you're interested in big issues like claims of ownership, national sovereignty and imperialism. Sorry to be political, but politics are the root of all taxes.
    It's not so great if you're interested in growing markets and creating new channels for access to goods.

    European 'net access is a good example of how taxes and questions like this can slow every initiative down to a crawl. Most of my friends in that area don't use the Internet much at all because of the high charges for phone use. And some countries (this may have changed) were taxing the Internet connection fees as "other than local" calls, making them subject to different tax structures and ultimately higher rates. While it's obviously tihsllub to say that we should all be tax free, there needs to be a smarter concession than what's being offered by Sen. Hollings.

    A previous commenter noted that the Canadian purchasor should not (and, ultimately, will not) be charged a sales tax on their purchase of goods from an originating US seller. If the tax structure is not smart enough, then the next big Internet thing will be the offshore intermediary. It's pretty easy to write an app that automates this whole process. Drop it on Jamaica and avoid all taxes. Better yet, get a name like WalMart behind it and see how "brand equity" overcomes what would normally be politically problematic. It's pretty easy to see how this process could (and, I argue, WILL) develop. So now its up to our resident regulatory brain surgeons to redefine taxes. A national sales tax? That's NEVER worked. But its an easy model for some country bumpkin from South Carolina to say "hey, um, let's do this!!" At a local level, sales taxes are great. From a state level, they're difficult to manage but still effective. At a national level (and even international)?? Fuggedaboudit.

    So, what's a country to do? Catalog and Internet sales are booming (well, compared to the GDP of a small African country, but it makes good headlines!). You could tax the sellers, but that makes producers move off-shore. You could tax the buyers, but that only works until an international billing address is found. I think, instead, we need a new model (sorry, I haven't thought it through yet...no real headlines here, no matter what my Econ degree says).

    Oh, wait. This is the big flame opportunity: to tell me to my face that you're going to tax every Internet purchase and use this to fund teaching is the strongest sign of disrepect I can think of. They're full of shit and they know it, and this pisses me off terribly. Any initiative at your national, state or local level that's done with the intent of "providing funds for teachers" is lying to you (except for bonds...). Vote against it. Instead, look to vote in legislators who will allocate their budgets towards education. That's the only "tried and true" method of increasing funds. BTW, I'm including initiatives like STATE LOTTERIES in this list of worthless stuff. More money has gone to the administrations for the California State Lottery and the California Board of Education than to any of California's schools.

    Moderate Democrat, Berkely Alum. Troubled youth.
  • Congress can too regulate interstate trade. They can't regulate intra-state (within the same state) trade, and in this case, state law says that you have to pay the local/state tax on items purchased. Congress can easily write a law that says "if you buy something from joe schmoe in idaho, you pay idaho state tax on it" or your local tax on it, or whatever. Paying the vendor's state tax rate would probably be easier for all around.

    The instant something crosses state lines, Congress has authority.
  • You're mostly right, except that MS's pricing strategy is one of the oddities of the modern business world. Pretend they were normal. They see the cost of computers go down from an average of $2000 to an average of about $1200. This means their demand curve has shifted (since the complimentary good--actual computers in this case--have fallen in price). A perfectly competitive firm would just sit there since they're not supposed to be making any profit and it doesn't behoove them to shift prices. But not even Bill Gates would claim they fit the description of "perfectly competitive". A normal non-perfectly-competitive company would then lower the cost of their good, since the demand curve has shifted. And yet for some reason they've chosen to keep the price of their product at exactly the same price that it's been at for the past several years. It boggles the mind--actually they did use this in their defense, though I doubt anyone was convinced.
  • Let's assume for the sake of arguments that
    there would be a sales tax on the net.

    --> This would not apply to products going
    outside of the USA.

    As for products going to Canada, many US companies
    are allready charging TPS to Canadian customers.
    This is an arrangement between the Canadian
    government and companies who want to do business
    in Canada. Check Barnes and Noble and JC Penny
    if you don't believe me.
  • Anyone who has take an AI class should understand and be able to explain why $50 is worth more to someone who has $100 than it is to someone who has $500,000.
  • New York too. The fact is that the lottery money does go to the schools, but to make up for it the politicians cut the normal budget for the schools (they're getting it from the lottery now! And anyway, our median IQ is still 100! Let's go spend the money on our campaigns.)
    --
  • First off . . . this country supposedly has a giant tax surplus, right? Why are smhucks thinking of bringing on new taxes?

    Well . . . first off, the "surplus" is sheer bullshit. Its based on a 10 year economic forecast. The odds of it being accurate are about the same of the odds of Microsoft suddenly casting aside its nasty business practices (lets just say a snowball has a better chance in hell . . . though it always could happen). Additionally, if any company did their accounting the way the government does, the accountants would be thrown in jail. Do you know that things like Medicare and Social Security don't count against the national debt or count as spending? Well . . . obviously we are spending big $$$ on them, and we are not reporting them in our ledgers. What does that do to the projected surplus? I doubt there will be much of a surplus at all.

    But you may be wondering what all this has to do with the Slashdot article. The fact of the matter is, the government is already to big and bulky as it is. With the worst case scenario, they should just freeze taxes (not levy any new ones), and they should spend their money smarter. You would be amazed at how much waste there is in the government. There are tons of agencies whose functions overlap and who can be downsized.

    The representatives claim that education is in a crisis may be true, but that still doesn't give them the right to tax net usage (which I doubt is very feasible anyway). Why don't the dipshits stop building 20 million dollar airplanes and dragging us into every squabble on this mudball and spend that money on education instead?

  • ...and anyone who has taken arithmetic should understand and be able to explain why $50 is the same to someone who has $100 as $250,000 is to someone who has $500,000.

    Put another way: my 5% is the same as your 5%.

  • Taxes go down all the time but people don't sit around and exclaim joyous phrases for months on end the same way people bitch about tax increases. Here in Massachusetts the governor is trying to lower the income tax from 5.95% to 5%. People rarely, if ever, talk about it. It makes the news maybe once every few months.

    If it were a tax increase every person on the sub would be bitching about it. Every issue of the Boston Globe would have an article about it.

    People have selective memory.

    [BTW, 100% of your income going to one tax or another is not communism. Understand what you are talking about before you sling around words intended merely to incite an emotional reaction.]
  • From article 1:

    Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

  • In case you're wading through the wailing and moaning of the "I like a nice society, but I don't want to pay for it" crybabies, and you feel like a change of venue, you might want to check out this [nwc.com] editorial in Network Computing. It's pretty reasonable. (Hence, it was not posted on slashdot when I submitted it.)
  • s/two political problems/three political problems/

    "Our three major weapons are..."

  • Re:Check your constitution, Boys! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Direct Quote
    "Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United
    States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

    To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

    To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

    To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

    To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

    To establish post offices and post roads;

    To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

    To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

    To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

    To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

    To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

    To provide and maintain a navy;

    To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

    To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states
    respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress,
    become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be,
    for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

    To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United
    States, or in any department or officer thereof. "

    Nothing about payment of educators. Hell, if you include a strict interpertation of the 10th Amendment, the power to use tax money for anything not on the list is reserved for the states.

    They do have the power to collect income tax though.

    "Amendment XVI

    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or
    enumeration."
  • It is laid out that the Federal government can not do ANYTHING to regulate inter-state trade. Whether or not this would hold up, I am not sure

    They may not be able to levy interstate taxes, but they sure as hell can regulate interstate trade, this was one of the priciple reasons for creating a federal government - Interstate trade was in a shambles with all sorts of tariff wars.

    -josh
  • Americans for Fair Taxation [fairtax.org] is a group promoting the replacement of federal income tax with a federal sales tax on retail goods.

    One of the goals of the group is the repeal of the 16th amendment (the amendment which gives the federal government authority to tax income directly). They also plan to disband the IRS. The proposal is backed by Representatives John Linder (R-GA) and Collin Peterson (D-MN)

    I have mixed feelings about a national 23% sales tax. Mostly, I'm afraid that we'll enact the sales tax and never get around to repealing income taxes. At this point, though, I'm starting to think just about anything would be an improvement over the status quo.

  • Re:...to fund TEACHERS SALARIES!!!! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    -they only work 9 months out of the year, with 3 months vacation. given a starting salary of at least $23k, thats like 23/0.75 = 30k a year? starting?

    Yeah, and I'm sure that when they take that extra $7,000 and try to buy groceries during the summer they have no problems whatsoever at the supermarket. Not that it matters to you; I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you think teachers hibernate during June, July, and August.

    By your logic, if the only work you do all year is $100 for an hour's Perl scripting, why, that's like making $192,000! So where's your Ferrari, dipshit?

  • Oh, er, one more thing: Sec. 4059, Imposition of Tax, (c) specifically gives credit for sales tax paid regarding state/local sales tax. So, if that total already is at least 5%, it would appear that no additional tax is levied.
  • You ignored the fact that she's aspecial ed teacher, which places extra responsibilities.

    I do know for a fact that she has a masters. I doubt she makes $23k. I have no idea what she makes, nor does she know what I make. She's been teaching for 15 years, so I imagine it's more than that.

    The amount of planning time is usually very limited, as she's keeping track of 15-25 children in the ages of 7-10 with learning or physical handicaps. I have no idea how that relates to high school or junior high teachers, but I do know she comes home with plenty of work to do. Plus the frequent meetings with parents. Plus the children who show up who she has to rate and see if they need to be in her class or not. This is for a good sized (maybe 15-20k students from K-12) school system.

    Teaching isn't a profession that's glorious, easy, or going to make you the next Bill Gates. Perhaps that's my point.
  • This bill has just been offered in committee by a minority-party senator. It has not been passed even there! Senator Hollings has zilcho influence over final Senate Legislation. Majority leader Trent Lott won't even schedule a vote on this bill (assuming it would make it out of committee, which it wouldn't.)

    Why is slashdot so often a place where we can read about things that have not happened?

    Today a wretched bill was not passed in the Senate or the House, and wasn't passed or even scheduled for a vote in its originating committee. Furthermore, these things will likely not happen.

    How's that for a more accurate headline?

    This is almost as ridiculous as the story posted earlier about how there was no news last week from Amiga. Thanks!

  • You're already most likely triple-taxed on your income, anyway (city/state/Federal).

    Well, once you get enough deductions to beat the std. exemption (like mortgage interest) you can deduct state and local from fed - not sure how that'll work out w/ a fed internet sales tax, along with all the states trying to collect mail order sales tax. However, it'll make things a little more complicated and once again those who remain ignorant will pay for it and those who study it will be able to save. Also, any internet tax scheme will definitely add to a business' overhead and those just marginally skating by will go under. I can see the spam now.

    Chuck
  • Saying teachers get 3 months to goof off is total bullshit. Both my grandparents, my aunt and uncle, and now my cousin are all teachers and I can tell you from experience that pretty much all summer is to a teacher is 3 months of work without pay. Any teacher worth the paper his/her certificate was printed on works almost all summer on lesson plans, getting books, buying supplies (often with their own money), fixing up the classroom, and generally getting things going so when children of unthinking, ungrateful people like you get to school, they can start the teaching immediately and not have to wait a month for the teacher to do all the foundation work "on the clock."
  • Hm. It's not a GOP proposal, though, unless Sen. Hollings has suddenly chosen to defect.

    The other thing is that this isn't your average sales tax. Odds are, most people buying online aren't your average pauper -- you're affecting a different market. How many people buy their basics (like groceries, etc) online? Not too many, so far. So it'll be hitting those who buy their books or cars online, in constrast to those who go down to their local Albertson's or Fred Meyer's.

    This also hits the people who want the latest from fashion catalogs, or those who buy computers (caveat. Big computer companies probably won't be heavily affected, because they tend to have presences in many, many states).

    That's in constrast to your average in-person-transaction sales tax, which hits those in everyday transactions and *is* blatantly regressive. Then again, so is the lottery, with the fundamental differences that a) the latter is completely voluntary, and b) it's mathematically a bad transaction...
  • >They are horrible

    And what do you base this crap on? Norm referenced test scores? There's a glaringly obvious problem of sample sets when comparing public & private schools. In short, higher average test scores of private school students do not imply that your child will learn more or perform better on tests (two different problems, btw) than they would by attenting a public school.
  • First of all the education system is so fuxored as it is we should be starving it like we did NASA for years to force and induce growth. Systems always get screwed up when they contain inflexible close-minded people or where money lies like the medical industry. Times are changing though, in the computer industry you need talent not the want of money to succeed, this is demonstrated by how many kids think microsoft certification will mean a easy buck and they're being rejected like mad because they have no experience. I see many industries shifting toward this in the future. We should be starving schools not giving them MORE money. We throw money at schools and get jack back. or perhaps isnt this the way the govt wants it to be? all the more stupid people who cannot question authority.
  • I want grassroots organization here. Something must be done and sitting here ranting in a fricking slashdot thread does nothing!! Nothing at all. I'm located in Los Angeles and am very interested in starting a localized slashdot activist organization. Anyone in the area who would like to join me send me email at chind@hotmail.com We cannot sit here and just let the gov't take away all our rights. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The internet is shattering every power structure including government. If you think mp3 was a bloody fight just wait till you get the dying cries of the gov't. Its not going to be pretty. We can subvert the government with software and hardware by making it open source and using simplified designs so people can do it themselves just as many people with playstations installed their own mod chips. PLEASE! Before all our rights are gone.
    Hail the future forth reich :(
  • Not according to utility value,l actually. The entire $100 of someone who has only $100 is going to be used for survival. It's utility value is higher. The 'second' $250,000 of someone who has $500,000 does not have the same utility value - it is going to probably going to be applied to nonessentials (perhaps invested, it is true.)

    In other words, the value of money is not a linear function.
  • It failed to pass in the minimum number of states. Moreover, different states voted on different wordings of the proposed amendment.

    The 16th Amendment was merely proclaimed to be ratified.

  • One of the best things about a flat sales tax, IMHO, is that it makes it has a built in incentive to save moey. You don't want to pay taxes, don't buy taxed items. The national savings rate for the U.S. last year was -.7%, IIRC. The highest level of consumption, per capita, comes from the higher economic classes. The "soccer moms" and their ilk, who absolutely HAVE to have the latest and greatest toys for their kids, and their husbands.
  • Dont worry about a 23% sales tax, we pay 25% plus rather high income taxes, but ofcourse we get free medical care etc.
  • Thought 1, concerning using such revenue for education:

    Yeah, right. I'm sure they will have a separate tax pool for education. They don't have a separate tax pool for Social Security.

    Money for such a task would go into the general pool, and thus be used anywhere and everywhere. Saying otherwise is counting on bleeding heart gullability. While I am very interested in funding education, doing it with a special Federal tax is not going to happen, no matter what they say.

    Besides, states and municipalities do it pretty well, thank you. IMArrogantO, the Fed should keep its fingers out of things that the states are competent at.

    Thought 2, about a specific Internet tax

    IIRC, the bill taxes Internet and catalog sales. Why you tax something based on the way it is sold is beyond me, unless it is to get the word "Internet" in there. Remember, the word "Internet" means more money--maybe the bill is trying to go IPO? Or maybe Congress is? That would legalize buying Senators, at least...

    If they just taxed interstate sales, this would make a lot more sense to me. This would be applied to most Internet commerce, catalog sales, etc. It also gets around the definition of "Internet commerce". Interstate commerce is pretty well defined. And regarding non-US sales, standard tariff law and/or NAFTA already regulates this. I live in a zero-sales-tax state (NH), and this makes sense to me.

    Thought 3: regarding constitutionality

    Article 1, section 8, US constitution: the Fed has the right to tax us, and to regulate interstate commerce. I don't see congress overstepping constitutional bounds here.

  • It would be all nice and dandy if we had direct democracy, but get with the program: we live in a world where you elect a few people to take care of things for you. These "lazy" people you refer to have real jobs and other more personal concerns than making sure the country is run correctly.

    The problem is that the few people we do elect serve certain special (read: their own) interests first and the constituency that elected them second. Eventually they run into the roadblock of not having anymore money so they have three choices: a) don't spend anymore b) borrow c) tax. Choice (a) is the first to go out the window. Choice (b) ... well we didn't get a trillion dollar debt from being frugal. And choice (c), well.. at least we're not Canadians/Europeans.

    You want us all the go run the country, but then you sit back and say complaining is bad. "Go to Cuba" you say. What kind of ignorant nonsense statement is that? "Oh, so you don't like paying taxes? -- go to a communist nation" "Oh, you don't like your government -- Go to Cuba. They're much better at dealing with dissidents." Yeah, that's bright.

    I have no idea what orifice this is all coming out of. "Be vocal, but shut up and don't complain" - "hey it could be worse". You sound like a Microsoft user. :)
  • The original poster may have exagerated, but I have to agree with him that teacher training is a joke, and, statistically, they score a lot lower on standardized tests. This does not mean, of course, that every teacher is stupid. A very bright friend of mine is working to get his teaching certificate so that he can teach in the inner city schools. He constantly complains about how inane the teacher training curriculum is, and how lacking in basic reading, writing and arithmetic skills some of his classmates and working teachers he has observed are. True, teachers don't have to be Einsteins, but if a significant percentage of them don't even understand what they are supposed to be teaching, then we have a problem.

    -----------------------------------
  • Close the public schools! They are horrible and detrimental to kids anyways! Private schooling baby!
  • Reasons not to panic:

    * If you already pay state or local sales tax on the merchandise, that amount (up to 5%) is credited towards the tax. So it's not additional to state/local unless your s/l taxes are below that amount...

    * Retailers that do business in your state, and are subject to taxing jurisdiction of the state, qualify as 'local merchants' and are excluded.

    * The bill *does* specify a fund for education spending. Nominally, salaries, but states w/ above the average (mean, presumably) in teacher salaries (although it says nothing about adjustment for cost-of-living... !) can use the money for other educational purposes.

    * It is an excise tax that only applies to products both bought and sold within this country. It's not attempting to tax international sales.

    Reasons to go nuts:

    * The funding can be withheld, basically at the Secretary's (read: President's) discretion. Read: blackmail opportunity.

    * It includes a vague reference to excluding non-local transactions. Possibly, that'd make for an interesting political poker game as to what sort to exclude -- so more patronage.

    How odd. Puerto Rico's explicitly included to benefit from the tax, but they won't pay it...
  • Ahem, the US const. GRANTS specific powers to the fed govt, all others NOT SPECIFIED are reserved for the states and locals. Cheezus, if the const. has to spell out everything the feds CAN'T do it would have to be infinitely long!! It's a documents designed to LIMIT the power of a fed govt.

    Then again, in practice the const. seems to be pretty much null and void where prohibited by law anyway.

    Chuck
  • You expect me to believe the $23K number? Even here in Alabama, experienced teachers with a PhE can make over $50K, and new teachers can make almost $30K in most districts. The only people I see making that little are teaching assistants who aren't certified.

    Teacher's salaries vary wildly depending on what state and county you're in. My mother in law, who taught in PG County, MD for something on the order of 30 years, was making less than $50K when she retired. Meanwhile, where I grew up in PA, it wasn't entirely unusual to meet public school teachers who's salaries topped out near the six-figure range.

    This is a particuarly bad area on which to apply anecdotal evidence. Public schools get the teachers they can afford, using the money from the property taxes the district residents can afford, allocated by whichever boneheads with delusions of grandeur can manage to get elected to the school board. IMHO, the wild variance of teacher salaries, competency, and school quality is an argument for more federal involvement in the school system, not less.

    Then again, I'm a commie pinko liberal. What the hell do I know?

  • Everybody, we stil live in a democracy!

    If you are not happy about the idea of taxes call your senator and register your opinion! Send an e-mail! Tell them what you think! Sometimes it does work!

    This bill at this point is in the Senate Finance commite. Go here [senate.gov] for a list of representatives on that committee. If enough calls are made the bill can be killed at the committee level.

    Believe it or not our reps do listen to what we say. So make sure you make your opinion know if your reps doing something you don't like.
  • Ummm... So how does a sales tax just hurt the poor? Poor people do not buy as much stuff as rich people (especially on the internet). I don't see many people buying water, food, shelter on the internet. How would this hurt the poor?

    I'm not for a internet tax, but atleast it is more fair than income tax.
  • Software prices actually do go down for old products -- or, perhaps, you're saying that your local stores sell old software at full price?

    Also, occasionally something like Quattro Pro gets marked down... it does happen, one somebody wants more market/mind share.
  • If memory serves...(all to often it doesn't) the Florida lottery money was intended to go towards 'special' programs and services (ie magnate programs etc) and not regular costs like teachers saleries and administration costs etc.. Unfortunately that's exactly what the politicians in Tallahassee started to do with the money (use it for regular school costs so they could lower taxes and get reelected) until they were sued over the matter and forced to use the money according to the Lottery laws original intent. At least I think they were forced to start using it the way it was intended. I didn't follow it very much after that. (I tend, like many do, to suffer from a certain dissafected apathy.) This kind of behaivor is just SOooo typical of politicians. Disgusting!
  • Hm, ok well whether it is a good idea or not (I vote not), they [the government] can tax thingys like that... and I agree that the government has got to get money some how... But what about the talks about taxing e-mail because the postal service isn't making as much money as they'd like to?... well you really can't tax outgoing e-mail can you? Sure your ISP can say "hey according to our logs you send 25 messages", but if that's the case, use a free e-mail service based in England. One of the biggest problems with the whole taxation issue is that the people making the laws about this kind of thing are 60 and 70 and 80 year old men who can barely use a VCR (not to say that it's impossible for a 79 year old man to use a computer...but you get the idea)... I guess my point is that most of the politicians don't understand the technology they are trying to tax, and my other one being that no matter what you tax, there is always going to be a way to get by it - such is the flexibility of the internet. [id.]
  • Now people, remember...opposing this tax means that you want teachers to starve to death. Not only that...you also hate children...and kittens...let the demagoguery begin!!!

  • Import Tarifs? We have been doing those since 1789.

  • Here is the text of the bill (Score:3)

    by konstant ( 63560 ) on Monday August 30, 1999 @07:36AM (#1716467)
    Introduced by Sen. Hollings from South Carolina and currently before the Finance Committee:

    S.1433 Sales Tax Safety Net and Teacher Funding Act [loc.gov]

    Note that this is only a bill, and has not passed committee. There is nothing at this point to distinguish this bill from any of the other hundreds of proposals submitted by "our" representatives every year. No need to panic just yet, unless you are from South Carolina. Here is the contact info for Senator Hollings:

    Ernest "Fritz" Hollings [senate.gov]

    And here is the webpage for the Finance Committee so you can see whether your senator might be influential in this process. If so, please contact him or her!

    Senate Committee on Finance [senate.gov]

  • Check your constitution, Boys! (Score:4)

    by HipNerd ( 74562 ) on Monday August 30, 1999 @07:37AM (#1716492) Homepage
    You do not have a Constitutional right to freedom from taxation. Right to free speech? Check. Protection from unreasonable searches? Check. Right to not be taxed? Not in there.

    We need taxes. Sad but true. Nobody likes them, and few people like the government. But taxes are necessary. Especially sales taxes, which help fund local and state governments.

    Local governments depend on sales taxes for 36 percent of their annual budget. They use that money to do practical, everyday things like:

    * Pay for teachers salaries
    * Put police on the roads
    * Or, for those who hate the police, they put firemen on the roads.
    * Hey, let's be honest, they build the roads and other necessary infrastructure with that money
    * Put on your local Peach Cobbler festival

    When people talk about government excesses and waste, they are seldom talking about local governments, they are talking about the Feds. It's okay to hate the federal government. That's almost the national pastime.

    I would like to add that the taxation bill discussed here is no a good idea. It is poorly thought out.

    The money would be collected by the federal government and used to to fund grants for teacher salaries exclusively. What if you need money for road improvements or more police? You're out of luck.

    Also, I think that it is too early to tax the net. While we will need to do it eventually, e-commerce is not a large enough piece of the retail pie to make taxing it necessary yet. I'd vote to let it grow more before we take the drastic step of implementing taxes.

    Just my $.02.

    HipNerd
  • It strikes me that the only reliable means of enforcement for a bill of this kind is to bring government into the loop on every transaction. But consider that commerce over the internet is at least supposed to be conducted over SSL. So... unless the gummint is prepared to accept the receipts of electronic businesses and take on faith that they are accurate, the only way that a bill like this could be enforced would be to require the IRS to snoop on secure transactions.

    If a bill of this kind ever makes it out, the IRS might mandate that every secure sale also be encrypted to their published key and sent to a massive Audit-bot hub. Imagine the incentive to crack that key! But even if no third party gains control of the information, the blow to personal privacy would be immense. Not only will they know what you're buying, but also when, with what credit card, to what address, etc etc.

    Another means of enforcement (and I'm sure this sends guilty erotic shivers up and down some spook's spine) is to require that secure transactions be performed using a key-escrowed or otherwise governmentally-crackable protocol. Then they could perform random audits. Of course, this capability would never be abused...

    -konstant
  • It should be pointed out that Sen Hollings is a Democrat and that the bill does not have any co-sponsors. So it will probably die in the commite. It is at best a very *LONG* way from becoming law.
  • Let's start off by saying my mother is a special ed teacher, and has been for about 15 years.

    Okay, so they only work 9 months a year. But for those 9 months, it's very often 50-60 hour weeks. Teacher conferences, parent meetings, meetings with therapists (in my mom's case anyway) and so on. No to mention time to create the curriculum or grade exams or other tests. That's all done outside of work, since that's the only time you have to do it.

    Then you've got the inflexibility of the job itself. No vacation time (aside from when everyone else is on vacation), limited sick time, and few real freedoms during the day (can't skip out early for lunch, for example, limits on phone calls, and so on).

    For all that, teachers are supposed to do that, make surekids actually *learn* something, and make only $23k? If I'm expected to work that long, I'd like to make more than that. It's not like schools are going to have an IPO anytime soon.

    And in response to your education question, it's really on a state-by-state basis how much training you need to be able to teach. In NY, I believe you need at least a masters in education before you can take the teaching exam.
  • Wouldn't it be better to not tax food and shelter? There are basic "essentials" of life. Perhaps a tax-free low cost (generic) grocer, and tax-free income housing. I also noticed someone else mentioning a fixed rebate level that would cover the taxes of the lowest income brackets, who really don't contribute all that much anyway.

    A luxury tax isn't needed, since if you can afford any luxuries at all, you would already be paying taxes on them. This can work and still treat everyone the same, while benefitting those that need tax breaks the most. Our current system benefits (i.e. pay less taxes) those with the income to hire a tax attorney/accountant to find the holes in the law or claim the deductions they deserve.

    20% national sales tax + $3,000 tax credit ($15,000 (roughly the poverty level) * .2)

    Everyone has the same taxes and low-income families recieve a higher benefit.

    You could even do the credit as a credit card (like the Validines I had in school), after the cashier rings you up, you slide 'em the card and it subtracts the tax + debits your tax account.

    The "cost" would be the government tracking what you use the credit for, but, and you have to trust me on this (it's what I do), your spending habits are already VERY well tracked by the real government of this country, the corporations.
  • In simple terms, they have a fairly high state income tax, and the property taxes in the Portland area are horrible, which subsidizes alot of the rest of the state. Not counting taxes on gasoline and vehicles which are truly outrageous.

    Finally, it doesn't hurt that the most heavily populated areas of Oregon enjoys fairly comfortable weather year round, and (IIRC) a fairly low crime rate.

    When my family moved to the Midwest, our percentage of spendable income to wages went up by about 10% just in the reduction in taxes, even though where I live now has sales tax on basically everything ('though at a lower rate on food.)

  • This yutz makes it through because he defaults to +2.

    Methinks we are in violent agreement. The section I quote (article I, section 8) gives Congress the right to pass an internet tax. I was using it to oppose amendment 10 (loose translation: anything we don't cover in the constitution and amendments is not a power given to the Federal Government). I simply showed what piece of the constitution did give that power to the Fed, so amendment 10 is irrelevant here. As another has noted, Congress may or may not have the right to fund education, but that's another story.

    Again, I agree that singling the Internet out for taxation, though legal, seems fairly stupid in my book. Too many loopholes.

  • heheh! I thought he was talking about Florida... I guess we all got hit with the same scam, eh?

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