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Toshiba Settling Billion Dollar Lawsuit 151

Posted by CmdrTaco from the thats-billion-with-a-b-kids dept.
male writes "A couple of ambulance chasers found out that Toshiba ignored a minor bug in it's hardware ten years ago, and is now suing them over it. Now Toshiba could be out 2 billion (with a B) dollars! The guys who brought the suit get a couple thousand, and the lawyers get a over 100 million... " You should read this article. It's pretty freaky.
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Toshiba Settling Billion Dollar Lawsuit More

Toshiba Settling Billion Dollar Lawsuit

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  • Since their whole free registration thing (which does bug me) makes it rather easy to create an account, I usually just make a new one each time I follow a NYT link from somewhere such as slashdot. This way I grow their database (though insignificantly) of users, throw off their data collection attempts (as I randomly place myself in some false demographic) and use invalid but well-formed email addresses and ask for all the spam they want to give me.
  • "The Toshiba settlement is much greater than those reached so far in the case of computers and software infected with the so-called millennium bug..."

    Wow, I didn't know it was contagious ;)

    tom

  • You don't have to use a real email address or any other important information. I give them (NY Times) new bullshit information every time I want to read something linked from Slashdot.

    paranoid.android
  • This story is exactly why everyone and their mother can tell dozens of lawyer jokes. Toshiba ia a pretty decent company. They make decent, relaiable products, they treat their employees relatively well, they don't (AFAIK) try to get away with serious, corporate crimes (dumping toxins, hiring 6 year olds to work 20 hour days where tthey lose fingers, eyes, etc). They didn't make that guy from Australia pay the MS tax on his laptop. So, because they sold laptops which have a chance of corrupt data on every 512 byte, deserve to get nailed? It's not like life was at risk by Toshiba using this floppy drive in their laptops. Data might have been at risk. Of course, from the article, nobody actually lost any data due to this flaw. So no data was destroyed. So Toshiba is expected to pay 2 Billion US because nothing went wrong? The part of this that angers me the most is some of the comments thus far. Talking about how evil big business is. Talking about people getting screwed by the man. Toshiba has just been screwed, and these two guys and their lawyers were the ones who made out like bandits.

    itachi, who asks (on topic) what one calls 5000 lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start.
  • I don't remember the name of the case, but while studying the law in economic terms, I ran across a case where a lady tried to kill herself by locking herself in the trunk of her running car, was stuck in the trunk when the car ran out of gas, and tried to sue the car manufacturer for endangering her by not having some way for her to get out of the trunk. Does the legal system need to be revised? Quite a bit, yes.


    itachi
  • Damages are supposed to cover the cost of undoing the wrong that was done to you. At least that's the way that they are supposed to work. Do you support the death penalty for jaywalking? Life inprisonment as part of getting a parking ticket? If no wrong was really done, why should Toshiba be paying for this? If Joe-Bob Company realizes that they have a problem with their widget, this is one of the things that they need to take into account. Well, we've already sold x wigets. If one of them fails to widgetify due to our little miscalculation, what goes wrong? Who gets hurt? Do they sue us? How much would it cost us to replace all the widgets that we've already sold. And you know what? If I was the guy at Toshiba who found that there was a little problem with these floppies, I'd say fsck it. I mean, floppies are the single most common point of failure next to windows and the person at the keyboard. Do you ever save important data on a floppy? Why not? Because you don't want to lose the data? Golly, what an odd coincidence. Nobody was hurt by this "buggy" hardware, not even the guys who filed the suit. 2 billion is silly.


    itachi
  • This lawyer canot be named lawyer.
    They are criminals!
  • Unfortunately, most software comes with a license that doesn't let you do that... For example from Apple's Quicktime:

    4. Disclaimer of Warranty on Apple Software. You expressly acknowledge and agree that use of the Apple Software is at your sole risk. The Apple Software is provided "AS IS" and without warranty of any kind and Apple and Apple's licensor(s) (for the purposes of provisions 4 and 5, Apple and Apple's licensor(s) shall be collectively referred to as "Apple")

    Which basically means that if it doesn't work, it's your problem.
  • It was possible (they had been notified by panasonic) that, while under heavy graphical or other load, data written to the floppy could be lost.

    Toshiba was unable to duplicate this in the lab. No customers reported lost data. But panasonic sent the memo saying that it *could* happen, and they didn't change the design. *wham*

    Look at your car. Any car. The manufacturor knows of all kinds of things that *could* go wrong and cause death, most of which could be fixed for a few dollars. The manufacturor chooses which ones are worth fixing, and which risks are too remote. If they fixed them all, all cars would start at $100,000, weigh five tons and up, and get four miles to the gallon.

    But then, when one of the remote risks does come true, they get hit not only for actual economic damages (which is not a problem; this much is really just a variation on insurance), but also general damages (loss of quality of life, pain & suffering, etc.) in whatever multi-million dollar figure amount a jury pulls out of thin air, and even punitive damages.

    And this is before class-actions get abused. The idea of a class action suit is to handle similar claims for damage together for judicial economy. But now, as here, we've eliminatged the "damage" requirement.

    I don't see the situation getting any better. And why did I close down most of my practice to head for law school? . . .

    hawk, disgruntled & disillusioned esq.
  • Smile when you say that!

    I grew up in Beaumont, and you are pretty much correct. It truly is the armpit of civilization.

    I'm glad I escaped.
  • Is this hardware really defective? To me (obviously Im not American) hardware is defective when it causes you some quantifiable loss.... and can be traced back to one of probably many bugs in every piece of hardware.

    If this was the case, we could have sued Commodore because we could play samples thru the volume register on a 64... Technically, that was a bug....

    Im glad I dont like in America (however, you still have your guns!!!)

  • I would love to see this kind of lawsuit extended to certain operating systems.

    To bad certain EULA's protect against this exact thing.
  • About six months ago, I received a letter from an attorney describing a class action suit that had been imposed on Fujitsu, which I believe had to do with eventual failure of the batteries. (I did notice that my battery didn't hold a charge, even after just two years of moderate use). They offered either a free new battery, or a (whopping) 16Mb RAM upgrade. I took the battery.

    It would be interesting to hear from a lawyer regarding this issue; if software/hardware bugs can be construed as illustrative of a 'defective' product, and whether there is such a history of these cases. It's a bit surprising that Toshiba backed down so easily from something that could have (probably) been fought.

    Maybe some similar lawyers are licking their chops with the prospect of going after Microsoft. I can't say I'd mind, to tell you the truth. I'm not one for trivial lawsuits, but I'm also sick and tired of buying buggy software, and being told to live with it.

    HebGb
  • $2 Billion for unspecified, potential harm...

    How much real damage could there be to having an occasional failure to the floppy? Who puts their only copy of critical information or files on a floppy?
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Man sites like the NY Times shits me, it amases me that some slashdot users actually log in everyday and post links to it.

    You would think that NY Times would be more respect for there customers.

    One of these years they will realise there mistake
  • I`l1 rapiab et ax son ax i fal lik ni

    i hob tes don't muke me loke dubm


  • Re: (Score:4)

    by Tomster ( 5075 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @12:47PM (#1575297) Homepage Journal
    I have been called to jury duty twice and served both times, so I have a little experience with the process.

    The last thing the court wants is a mistrial or a hung jury, as that is time-consuming, expensive, and unpopular with the public. (Plus the waste of time for the jury members (which granted is only a few days normally).) And in most cases there is a desire by all parties to see a fair trial.

    The purpose of the selection process is not to pick the "right" people for the case; it's to make sure the wrong people aren't selected. The questions asked by the attorneys are geared towards weeding out people who are biased ("Would the defendant's race influence your opinion as to his innocence?", have too much emotional involvement ("Have you, or anyone in your immediate family, been the victim of a robbery?"), or are otherwise mentally/emotionally unfit to serve. After these people are eliminated, twelve of the remaining candidates are randomly selected. These twelve people will usually be "average" citizens who are going to do their best to make the right decision. It's a weighty responsibility, to sit in judgment of someone's life, and most people do treat it with the proper respect and attention.

    I am a firm believer in the functionality of trial by jury. Yes, it can be twisted or bent -- but it's a lot more fair to the defendant than anything else I've seen.

  • It says the class action could have led to toshibas bankruptsy ($9 Billion dmages) if they didnt settle.

    And the fault was barely reproducable.

    Contrast this with Micrsosft, windows is clearly defective, BSOD and all. Would it be possible for all windows users to take class action and bankrupt microsoft.

    I think the only thing that would save MS is there is probably some legal clause saying microsoft is no way responsible for the software you pay them money for.
  • This is something of an analogy to the M$ trial. Big business is relatively invulnerable to litigation. Someone needs to step in and fix this.
  • Thank you. Now, can someone pleazse tell this to the "rest" of the world. I have worked in support and never ceased to glean amazement from the faith people placed in their disk. Yes, that is singular, the one that contains, oh, I dunno, their resume, thesis and any other irreplaceable data they might want to carry around in a nunprotected fashion in their back pocket. I'm surprised such a class action suit has neve been levied on support techs, seeing as we're the ones who always get blamed....
  • This goes far deeper than a simple excess by our jury system or parasitic lawyers. I sense a technology-induced backlash against geeks who are oblivious to the havoc we are unleashing by unwittingly destroying old hierarchies.

  • How can you agree with suing companies that make LEGAL products that are KNOWN to cause problems because they cause problems? If the products are that bad, outlaw them.

    Of course the guns are protected by the constitution, so people that don't want to take responsibility for their own actions go to the courts instead. They can't change the constitution so they make it too expensive to be in business.

    Should game manufactures get sued because a kid fails school by playing too much and not studying?

    Actually I believe DEC was sued for keyboards as part of a carpal tunnel lawsuit. The petitioner's employer didn't have enough money to make the suit worthwhile to the laywer so he added DEC as the keyboard manufacturer. Deeper pockets.

  • The "bug" (Score:4)

    by My Third Account ( 78496 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:19AM (#1575307)
    Jeez, read the article... the bug is sometimes the toshiba notebooks have errors writing to the floppy disk. Toshiba claims they haven't been able to reproduce the errors in the laboratory.

    It's even worse when you think about how universally unreliable floppies are anyways. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone if their floppy disk suddenly doesn't work.
  • Wow. I remember the good ol' days when people backed up their hard disks onto floppies. These days, I back up my floppies onto my HD :D
  • Login: wheredoyou
    Password: wanttogotoday

    --

  • can't read the article.... refuse to register
    (yes i registered for /., but only after being an AC for a while)

    from personal experience, i think floppy disks are the embodiement of murphy's law.

    if you need something that is on a floppy, the only way to retrieve it is to sacrifice your first born i believe.

  • At least... (Score:3)

    by Issue9mm ( 97360 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:23AM (#1575312)
    At least Toshiba has decided to take responsibility for their actions. I recall a situation in which I was on the development team of another (read= competing) laptop manufacturing company, that knew about what was also a rather inconsequential bug. Due to marketing and meeting deadlines, the bug was released intact with the product, and software programs that would invoke the bug (example : NT Service Pack 4) were simply labelled unsupported software.

    Users of 'unsupported software' programs were urged to regress to SP 3 by the help desk, a task which any other Wintel users can say doesn't always work for the best.

    It's good to see them NOT taking the same action. "Well, if the disk won't write in MS Office, we'll just bundle Smartsuite instead."

    Offtopic, does anyone know of the circumstances that would cause the floppy to miswrite/malfunction? How common was the error produced?

    One thing that does sadden me tho, is that ANY major company with a reputation to maintain, entrenched in competition by its peers, would allow anything known wrong out the door. NOTE FOR MANUFACTURERS - if there is a bug in your hardware, it WILL be found. There are too many myriad configurations of software/hardware for ANY single bug to go completely unnoticed. If you know about it, fix it before it hits shelves. Push deadlines back, the people will appreciate it...

  • Re: (Score:1)

    by hoovs ( 44014 )
    I couldn't agree more. Part of the problem is there is no way to quantify the "pain" of being sold a defective product.
  • I'm getting sick of all these trivial lawsuits. Toshiba, Wizards of the Coast, etc. These lawsuits are increasing my costs of living for silly reasons. If anybody decides to file a class action against one of these law firms for filing expesive but frivilous lawsuits, count me in.
  • Land of Litigation.

    And before you folks start going off about how all laywers are inherently evil (as some have already started doing), consider the possibility that it's our laws and judicial system that's at fault here. There will always be laywers stepping up when another one backs down due to his own ethics.

    Face it: Americans like being able to blame somebody. They like the security lawsuits give them. They know that if they do something pretty stupid, they usually have the ability to save face and sue somebody else. It's this mentality that has made our judicial system what it is today...
  • Sites that require free registration do so for only one reason: they want a mailing list. They don't gain any money from the registration, so where else would they gain it from? People should realize this and refuse to ever register for anything that is supposedly free. If every company that tried this found that it fails every time, I would not have to waste my time bullshitting them every time I want to read an article. While I'm at it, is there a reason why so many articles from this site appear here? Can anyone really tell me that nytimes is the ONLY place that has any news on this event whatsoever? Maybe that could be true, but I doubt it.

  • Implications (Score:5)

    by Eternal Darkness ( 107778 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @01:51PM (#1575319)
    I would like to know one thing: If a hardware manufacturer can be hit this hard because of a rather minor bug in one of its hardware products that hasn't really caused any damage...


    Then why can we not hit Microsoft, a software company, just as hard when their OS crashes and people lose data because of it? Damages caused by this one are quite well documented, and don't tell me Microsoft is ignorant of this fact.
    It is because of Microsoft that the general public thinks that having to reboot an OS every week or every few weeks is OK. To me, the OS is more important than the floppy drive, as I can do without one but not the other. I run Linux, but at work I am forced to use Windows. It has crashed on me numerous times while I was in the middle of something. I save my work frequently, and it still has cost me a lot of time spent redoing work that should not have been lost. What about the company I work for? When I have to redo work like this, they lose money.
    How many other companies out there are affected by this?

    While I think this suit against Toshiba is a bit blown out of proportion, this is a great thing if it is any indication of big business in the IT industry actually being held liable for shoddy products.

  • Re: (Score:2)

    by Eccles ( 932 )
    Beats what I "got" from a class action settlement from Cellular One. What did I "get"? $15 off any *new* service costing at least $75, which does *not* include paying my current bills with it. Sounds like they made a deal with the lawyers, so the lawyers get megabucks, the company gets off relatively cheaply, and the customers get diddly.

    I'm married to a lawyer, but she works for the government and thus I'll never see one of these settlements. (Oh well, at least I can live with myself...)
  • Umm, I think you meant Toshiba where you say Compaq.
  • There must be something more to this. If you brought a case forward, would you settle for 25,000$ when your lawyer gets 147 Mil? No way. If you were Toshiba and a bug arose that hasn't yet had a complaint, would you give out 1 or 2 billion dollars? No. Either the world is still feeling the affects of the pentium bug, or somebody's not saying something.

    -- Moondog
  • When will I get reimbursed for the Windoze fiasco? Maybe somebody should hire a lawyer...I think they would be doing the world a favor...
  • On one hand, I have a Toshiba laptop that qualifies for a nice "rebate". On the other hand, I've been happy with the laptop (Satellite XCDT series), have never had a problem with the floppy drive, and think Shakespeare's quote on lawyers lacks sufficient creativity. OTOOH, Toshiba made a gutless call by settling, rather than taking a chance on a jury trial (even a likely rigged trial) and appealing the case as high as it could go if necessary.
  • I lived in Beaumont for 2 years.... and it sucks! It is an east Texas city full of chemical plants and prisons. The unions are very strong and Charles Manson would win an election there if he were a democrat.

    There are several law firms in town that make a good living finding marginal lawsuits from across the country and filing them in Jefferson county, especially product liability cases. The average citizen there thinks all corporations are inherently evil and want to stick it to the man.

  • Re: (Score:1)

    by gargle ( 97883 )
    Sites that require free registration do so for only one reason: they want a mailing list.

    I've registered for the NYTs, using my real email address, but I have never received any spam from them. They're a model in this regard as far as I'm concerned. I gave them my real address (and other demographic information) because I think they provide a valuable service -- it's a fair trade for the numerous quality articles.

    While I'm at it, is there a reason why so many articles from this site appear here?

    Yes, because the New York Times is a great newspaper.



  • Re:Implications: $150M to play with... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Plaintif lawyer's work in the tobaco lawsuits was largely financed with money from the litigation over aspestos; once a Law firm has won a large suit, they will often invest some of their winnings in further suits. $150M is ton of money to play with - I imagine they will have a lot of fun scaring other hardware/software companies in the future. Plus there must be hundreds of other law firms salivating over a payday like that. This could be just the tip of the iceberg as they say.

    So does anybody have a clue what the bug was? I don't remeber seeing a work around for it in the list of kernel options - funny since linux includes lots of fixed for hardware bugs/wierdness.
  • They say they'll post fixed drivers on their site soon. I hope their Linux driver will be GPL'ed. Toshiba's MS drivers never saw the light of day on my laptop.
  • An Etch-a-Sketch only crashes when you drop it. 8-)
  • While you are a student in the US, I would advise doing some research on the jury system. I am not sure where you are from but the jury system works. It is not perfect. I don't know of any man-made system that is perfect but it is far better than any other system in place today. Before you make uninformed judgements about the jury system, do a little research to see if you're on on firm standing.
  • Actually all you need to do is find a company who was aware of a flaw in their system for 10 years and did nothing to fix it. Then you deservedly will reap a windfall lawsuit.

    Your post is amusing but it's nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to lawsuits in general. There is a general antagonism to lawyers and legal recourse. Much of this has been fostered by republican legislators who have attempted to protect corporations from these such lawsuits. When corporations put as much as effort into their products as they do in making profits, they won't be put in these situations.

    More power to the plaintiffs in this case. Toshiba got what it deserved.
  • Install Windows 95,98,NT,2000 If it turns blue then the hardware is defective. File a class action suit against the manufacturer. The legal army of the M$ will somehow prove to the court that the OS could not possibly be to blame.
  • Is there anything inherrently different about keeping data on a hard drive as opposed to a floppy disk? People are advised to keep floppy disks away from magnets and the sun. If they were similarly advised that the floppy controller possibly will miss writing data every now and then, and the user still used the floppy drive, then the user would be at fault. Since Toshiba knew this could happen, for 10 years no less, but did not do anything to correct the situation or inform users, they are liable for any data loss.

    I don't feel sorry for Toshiba at all. Lawyers are always getting knocked but they performed a valuable service here. Only in a society where we have become accustomed to shoddy quality and bug laden software and hardware can we blame lawyers for Toshiba's screwups.
  • If Toshiba pays out against all claims, the lawyers per centage of the take amounts to less than 10%. That is a fair fee.

    It's simply amazing to see people defend Toshiba. Let me ask you a question. Would you feel differently is there was a manufacturer whose faulty materials was causing planes to self-destruct and blow up in mid flight? You probably wouldn't object to a legal "award" in that case. Now what would you say if the design for the piece was incorrectly saved on a laptop because of a faulty floppy disk controller?

    Toshiba knowingly and negligently put out a faulty product. Just because you personally weren't damaged and can't concieve its serious is your problem. You can blame the attorneys all you want since that's the easy thing to do.


  • Toshiba sold a lot of laptops, it's that simple. If you read the article you would see that the personal awards are very small. Toshiba will probably not have to pay the majority of the decision anyway.
  • I myself own a GW2K and about a year ago, I guess gateway sued the maker of the monitors that gateway was supplied (Vivitrons..) , line 245 or something was defective and is only slightly more darker than all the other lines. They sent me a card and had about 3 pages in GW2K Magizine (sent out about quarterly to all customers) about this suit. If I remeber corectly, i could have gotten 25$'s out of the thing... but i ignored it, i didn't ever really care that much.. line 245 doesn't bother me anyway.
  • >I don't know about you buddy, but I like the judicial system the way it is.

    You like the outcome of a case such as this? 140 Million for the law firm? This is nuts.

    Lawyers should get paid by the hour (200 dollars an hours is pretty nice) and never get any of the settlement money. EVER. This is one of the MAIN reasons our judicial system is so forked, it allows lawyers to suck our blood.

    Other countries laugh at us. A couple ladies in California suffered bad burns after a drunk driver plowed into their car and it burst into flames. Who did they sue? General Motors! Worse, the jury awarded these ladies 10 Billion dollars. GM was pretty surprised, so was I. They MIGHT get it down to a Billion on appeal.

    Bet you a US dollar that nobody on the jury could even write out 10 Billion, being the lowest educated people that the prosecuting lawyers could find.

    So, 2 things are needed immediately. Flat rate lawyers and review of jury members by an independent party (judge).

    Since > half of our lawmakers are lawyers (big surprise), you will never get legislation passed and we will continue in this spiral till the whole thing falls apart. It will take the bankruptcy of Boeing or GM to actually get anything to happen. Too bad, eh?

    -kabloie

  • How about Dow Corning for a product that has never even proved to be defective (breast implants). Our system is definatly messed up.
  • Now if only the greedy lawyers would send some over there as well rather than spending it on 30 cars, 10 houses, etc...

    It's amazing that all you can get out of this article is how much the lawyers are making out like bandits. The lawyers per centage of the take is less than 10% of the take, which is extremely low for a class-action suit. The law firm put up the expense to prosecute the case and are being compensated justly.

    Toshiba abused its relationship with its customers by not providing a fix for a problem that it was aware of for 10 years. Corporations that don't view there customers as partners don't get my sympathy. If they look at us like cash cows, then the hell with them.

  • The bug is worth a billion dollars. You know why? Because Toshiba said so. I trust their opinion more than yours.

    How do you know whether anyone was hurt by this bug or not? First of all most Toshiba laptop owners are probably not aware of this lawsuit. I also doubt whether they are technically inclined to debug their floppy controller micro-code when they encounter missing data on their floppy disks either.

    Toshiba got what it deserved. Glad to see the Young Republican clubs are still churning them out.
  • This may be a precedent setting lawsuit. Hopefully it will portend a dark and gloomy future for companies like Microsoft who continually shirk their duties when it comes to giving us quality software and/or hardware.
  • The lawyers got less than 10% of the total award. I personally have no problem with tobacco companies, gun companies or any company that knowlingly peddles unsafe or defective products being sued. I have a hard time feeling sympathy for them.

    car companies aren't immune. Their products kill more people than guns and smokes combined.

    Yeah, ok. Do you have a bridge to sell us too?
  • Couldn't disagree more. Lawsuits provide a valuable tool with which people can try to right a wrong. If punishment is applicable, punitive damamages can be assessed also.

    Civil lawsuits are out of control in the US

    Outside of cute anecdotes, give me some facts to back up your assertion.

    If Toshiba had done the right thing in the first place they wouldn't have been placed in this situation.
  • It's amusing to see people sum up in 2 sentences what lawyers do for a living.

    Heh, if I was a lawyer, I could easily make the comparison that M$ violates all the fundamental rights given to American citizens and thus must be annihilated.

    Don't quit your day job as an anonymous coward.
  • I am sure it is completely random selection process with my experience but how many of hardworking citizens can be a jury.

    I've been called up twice. When your employer won't pay you while you're on jury duty, though, and the meager compensation provided to jurors won't pay the bills, you end up with no choice but to seek an excusal. You end up with juries full of old people and housewives who'd probably be watching Jerry Springer if they weren't in court...just the kind of people you want in court. Not.

    But I hear many educated people are dropped during jury selection process. Do I want my life decided by unemployed alcholics? Or somebody hischool drop out working in the corn fields. Sure No.

    Lawyers on both sides tend to have dismissed from jury duty all but the most pathetic skulls-full-of-mush. How else do you think the Menendez brothers' verdicts or the O.J. Simpson verdict could have been reached? Those juries were stacked by the defense with a bunch of morons.

  • hehe..i was going to use that Exact same .sig good thing i didnt
  • I'm getting sick of all these trivial lawsuits.

    Then retire to a little island where you'll never have to be bothered again.

    These lawsuits are increasing my costs of living for silly reasons.

    How does this lawsuit increase your cost of living? Are you planning on buying another Toshiba laptop? Then you get what you deserve.
  • hey know that if they do something pretty stupid, they usually have the ability to save face and sue somebody else.

    Yeah, imagine people stupidly trying to save data on a floppy disk. I mean, what would possess them to do that?

    I don't know about you buddy, but I like the judicial system the way it is. When you think of a better system be sure to let me know. I'll do everything in my power to help you get elected president.
  • The lawyers got a percentage of the total judgement. The percentage comes up to less than 10%. Not unusual in these kinds of cases, and actually lower than normal.

    Toshiba settled to cut costs in the event that there was someone out there who had been harmed by this bug. If they thought it was a good idea, who am I to question them.
  • I don't think Toshiba should have settled for that much. If a jury had really awarded 10 billion like the article suggested, it would get reduced on appeal.
  • i simply dont understand the point in screwing over a corporation for 2 billion dollars when all they will end up getting is 25 grand. if they hadn't bothered with the whole thing, sure they would not have received the 25 000, but they would have saved someone else 2 000 000 000. i find this LUDICROUS

    peace

  • No offense, but what planet do you live on? (Score:4)

    by FallLine ( 12211 ) on Sunday October 31, 1999 @04:19AM (#1575370)
    I agree, lawsuits are necessary. What I do have a problem with is our (US) tort system. It is wildely expensive for both parties, even if one party is clearly in the right. It is very time consuming. Juries are technically incompetent (e.g.: law, medicine, science, business, etc), many times they're functionally illerate. And last, but not least, the awards are all too often far too high.

    I don't regard billion dollar awards against billion dollar companies to be anecdotal. It would be equivalent to calling TB and the bubonic plague an anecdote when talking about the dangers of diseases. Sure, they're both singular cases, but you have to look at the costs.

    None the less, there are plenty of high dollar awards that I can name in the past 5 years. These are things that any business man is all too well aware of. Beyond Ford and GM, billion dollar awards in California, we have other more aggregious cases. For example, Dow Corning (not to mention other silicon producers) who was sued successfully for producing breast implants; they're no longer in business. In this case, it was never proven that they even leaked in the case. Futhermore, it has been proven repeatedly that such nominal leakage has no such effects on the human body. Yet, you have billion dollar awards against multiple companies, and hundreds of millions in legal fees (even today). I can tell you from personal experience, that these manufactuers that are still in business REFUSE to allow their silicon products to be used in implantable medical devices, even if they have no direct involvement in its usage. The result? Silicon, the superior and safer product, can't be used in such devices cost effectively. These are real costs, in many areas. There is also Cesna aircraft, now brankrupt, in an even more absurd case.....

    I can also point to multiple cases against my parents', family's. and friends' companies. Cases in which, they've been told by their lawyers that it would be cheaper to settle than it would be to WIN. Cases in which the plantiff is clearly a fraud, who has been in and out of the courts on similar yet seperate cases, yet the courts refuse to allow this piece of information in the courtroom. Cases in which even the judge sent the award back to the jury, saying it wasn't high enough to warrant the time involved. ...I can go on.

    There is nothing anecdotal about this. They are huge costs of doing business. They discourage people and products from entering various markets. People lose their jobs. Frauds get recieve huge awards and settlements all the time. The costs are far too high, win or lose; they're not an effective means of settling disputes. Anyone who runs a sizable business, or really any organization, is painfully aware of this. There is A LOT of room for improvement, my ideas are some of them.

    Toshiba might be partially at fault. However, the fact of the matter is of more than a million laptops shipped, not one complaint was filled. We have no evidence that anyone was actually hurt. Toshiba is an OEM, and this part was purchased. It could very well have been an innocent mistake. You don't have any evidence to the contrary. Many companies are placed in such situations for more absurd cases.

    PS: If you wish read a good essay on tort reforms, try this: http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/reg19n1e.html



  • For a long time, certain ranks of professional people were excused from jury duty. That is not the case any longer. Jurors go through the peremptory challenge phase conducted by both sides. There is no inequity in that.

    Our lay system is fine. Trial Judges always have the option of lowering judgements, which they often do. Appeal courts are also an option too.

    Once again, the law firm's take is less than 10% of the total judgement. That is fair compensation.

  • Litigatory Lottery (Score:3)

    by cdlu ( 65838 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:24AM (#1575373) Homepage
    This just goes to show how much of a lottery the US legal system is now-a-days. And these lawyers are just the latest people to hit the court-room jack-pot (though, if they had settled in court, the article says, they stand to have made 5 times there 147 million US each). The problem is entirely insignificant, even in DOS, it probably would not be a problem since about DOS3, with the copy /v (verify) flag set. It would go "wow, there is a byte in the wrong place. lets fix it!"

    Why is the civil case system so far out of reach with reality?
  • Where's the problem? Use "cipherpunks/cipherpunks", as everone else does. I don't even consider this cheating, as the NYT people definietely know that account is being used by many people (and why should they care?).
  • what other floppy drive controllers have the same problem... True, it's a very bizarre bug to trip, but FDC's in general are all pretty much the same. Other companies could have not replicated the fix, which means that other floppy drives could have the same problem.

    Anybody have an idea as to how to test out if your FDC is flawed?

    --
    Jeremy Katz
  • Suing big business just because they have money to take is a bad idea. Notice in the story that the one who brought the suit, was also a lawyer. (and he wasn't really affected) And who got paid the most? The user? No. The lawyers.
    This is just a case of greedy lawyers seeing green. Just like suing tobacco companies for billions upon billions of dollars. And now it's gun companies.
    You may laugh, but one day someone is going to sue keyboard manufacturers, or mice makers.... car companies aren't immune. Their products kill more people than guns and smokes combined.
  • ok, I belive that companies should be breought to court for their mistakes.. this shouldn't be some sort of "untouchable" business.. BUT you have to draw the line somwhere, this lawsuit is just plain silly. Like he said.. it's a bunch of ambulance chasers

    btw. does anyone else think that maybe it really DOES pay to be a lawyer? I mean, you're one of the most hated people on earth, but for this kind of money.. maybe that's not so bad

    ---
  • Huh? If they've been successfully sued, how is this "invulnerable"?

  • But he said the error would only go undetected if it occurred in the 512th byte of the 512 bytes that are recorded at one time, not in any of the other 511 bytes. Also, he said, it appeared to occur only when the computer was heavily loaded, such as when it was playing a video while also writing to the floppy disk.
    They can sue Toshiba for that? Speaking of defective products..
    5 minutes later...
    sorry for that, I just BSOD'ed and had to reboot.
  • the issue is not that you give them information about yourself or whatever, its that they make you do something to get information.....

    its like if /. didn't let you read the stories unless you were logged in

    not having ever used the NYT's site, i imagine they hit you with ad banners anyhow, so theres no reason to inconvience readers with a login screen

    (i'm sure they also have a cookie option, but i for one do not always use the same computer)

  • Jury selection (Score:3)

    by OA ( 65410 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:31AM (#1575381) Homepage
    I have been in US as Student and Investiment visa holder. Sure I can not possibly be a jury. Voila, I was asked to come to court to be a jury. If not respond to the letter, there was threatning phrase.

    I am sure it is completely random selection process with my experience but how many of hardworking citizens can be a jury.

    But I hear many educated people are dropped during jury selection process. Do I want my life decided by unemployed alcholics? Or somebody hischool drop out working in the corn fields. Sure No.

    These legal sytem of unaccountability is hurting this economy. Thanks god, US economy is strong enough to over come this kind of drawbacks.
  • Toshiba should have fixed the bug. They only had 10 years to do so.
  • Hard Drives are sealed and high quality. Floppy disks are unsealed and floppy drives are crappy.
    --
  • So is there a technical explanation somewhere, more detailed than just saying that the 512th byte of a sector can be corrupted if the computer is playing video at the same time? We need more detail than that if we want to write a workaround for the Linux fd driver.

  • De Facto standards in law (OT) (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    As with many other posters, I think something like this would be great if it could be applied to certain vendors of software, if it were not for a EULA.

    Which leads me to thinking (and this is probably pretty out there, not being a lawyer): under US (or any country's) law, once a product becomes a de facto standard, is it treated differently for lawsuits, etc? I'm thinking in terms of something similar to trademark law, whereby if a company's trademark is strongly associated with a product for a long time and the term falls into common usage, the trademark is rendered invalid (I'm being brief).

    The argument being, because certain software is a de facto standard, people/businesses are forced to use it to maintain compatibility. But if this "standard" turns out to be unreliable and a financial loss results because of use of this product (which they were, in effect, forced to use), could someone successfully sue? Could this get an individual licence argreement declared invalid? Of course, the company involved would probably use arguments similar to Microsoft's at the antitrust trial ("It's not a standard, it's just...uh, ummm, uh...wanna see this cool thing called Linux?")

    Probably a dumb, thought, but just curious.....

  • Sites that require free registration do so for only one reason: they want a mailing list.

    A mailing list is only part of it, and often not a very big part of it. In the case of the New York Times, they don't seem to use your email address for much, if anything.

    Rather, they're interested in demographic information, including whether or not you're willing to provide valid information on the form. Knowing their typical audience (eg. income bracket, etc.) as well as their willingness to provide such information gives them some powerful tools for better targeting their site (both articles and advertisements) at the readership.

    If you use the same user-id each time, they also can build up statistics on readership patterns. This is likely why they have the "Save this ID on my machine" checkbox, in order to encourage this sort of consistent tracking.

    Building a spam list which alienates readers is probably pretty low on their priority list right now.

    --Joe
    --
  • Billion dollar awards against billion dollar companies do not prove that the law system is out of control. You've listed several companies but you have not given any evidence that would indicate they were the victims of unjust lawsuits. Corning, Ford and GM have all put out products that have caused the death and disfigurement of people at one time or another. I don't know about you, but I don'think billions of dollars are enough to teach them a lesson.

    You then go on to state that you parents and friends have been unjustly sued. Says who? What are the facts of the cases?

    You also suggest that Toshiba may not have been liable because they are an OEM and bought the part and that they may have made "an innocent mistake". That is false because they knew about the defect for 10 years. NEC fixed the fault. Why didn't Toshiba?
  • I, nor anyone else, is going to "prove" anything in a single slashdot post. However, it doesn't take a genius to see the flaws in the system. My personal examples aren't proof, but they're NOT anecdotes to me. I know it from personal experience, intellect, knowledge, and intuition; it just amazes me how individuals such as yourself can be so blind to it. I don't mean to be catty, but it is clear to me that you're not familiar with the courts or running a business.

    You have to look at each specific case. Ford and GM may have been liable at various times, but >billion dollar awards to an individual in a case where there is no clear malice, malpractice, disregard for human life, etc; is just absurd. Futhermore, these were rewarded to individuals. The juries arrive at these numbers arbitrarily, with NO understanding of business. To them, 1 million is the same as 15 billion, they're both "huge".

    McDonalds was sued recently because some old lady spilt hot coffee on her lap; it was "hot" imagine that. They didn't have a "warning", you'd think a lady of her years would be aware that "hot coffee" is hot. Or how about the guy who sued a lawnmower company for having his hands mangled; he tried to cut his hedges with his lawnmower by picking up. No warning, gasp, imagine a lawnmower with a blade spinning underneath it. Multimillion-multibillion dollar lawsuits. Where does this stop? You'll never have enough warnings.

    Give me a good reason why the plaintiff deserves punitive damages. The point of punitive damages is to PUNISH the party at fault; not to make the plaintiff rich. I realize that punitive damages have some functionality, but they're doing far more harm than good. They should be restricted. But if not restricted, they should be awarded to a third party instead (e.g.: charity). The effect would be the same, except the ambulance chasers and company would have less incentive to bring fraudulent cases.

    Sometimes the companies are deserving of such awards against them, but it is one in fifty. The circumstances are different in each case. With some evaluation in many of these cases, it becomes clear: who is at fault, how responsible the party is, etc. Read the Cesna case -- tell me otherwise, please. And read that URL that I gave you.


    The fact of the matter is that neither you nor I have a complete picture of the Toshiba case. One thing I do know, however, is that NO ONE claimed to have been hurt by it. One million computers sold, and not one complaint. That gives you some idea of just how minor a problem it is. Given this, perhaps some low level management person simply overlooked it. Perhaps they weren't really informed properly. You simply don't know. A lot of these factors affect responsibility. As such, the rewards shouldn't be the same. For all you know, this company could be highly principled through and through. Yet you're willing to play judge, jury, and executioner. Whats a mere 2.1billion? It may or may not put toshiba under, or near to it. Just because they settled doesn't mean anything in today's legal system. Does a good company deserve this? And perhaps more importantly, can our country survive this behavior?
  • This story is all the proof you need. A company sold millions of a single product (that is known to generally be unreliable...all floppies suck) and never once received a complaint, they receive a complaint that cannot be reproduced in the lab but yet have to pay $2.1 billion (or risk higher in court). Finally the plaintiffs (who did not suffer any damage) get $25,000 while their lawyers get $147 million.

    If you do not see a problem here I guess ....
    ...you don't.

    Bad Command Or File Name
  • I just wanted to point out that this jury court system sometimes makes me feel insecure . No offence to the good citizen serving as the jury. I also recognize some positive side to the society by having jury system.

    With all understood, I hear too many horror stories of the system. Blame it to US media but those are the messages many foreigners are getting.

    Maybe many American business institutions feels the same way too. That is why some business contracts specify that the conflict be arbitrated in a system outside of jury court system. (Sorry I was not law major Grad student, I forgot the name of the system.)

    By the way, I once translated a sermons against a big Japanese company for the product liability. One who asked me to translate lamented those big companies usually have better lawyers and are very selective in jury selection. He was highly worried to get bozos to his jury.

    I hope that I had a decent exposure to US legal system and did not make previous statement from my total ignorance.

    s/hischool/high school/g Never good at spelling --- Engineering geeks (myself)
  • The bug is worth a billion dollars. You know why? Because Toshiba said so. I trust their opinion more than yours.
    That's an abrupt turnaround...

    I only take a drink on two occasions - when I'm thirsty and when I'm not.
  • Actually all you need to do is find a company who was aware of a flaw in their system for 10 years and did nothing to fix it. Then you deservedly will reap a windfall lawsuit.


    With today's legal climate here in the U.S.?? I doubt the amount of time the company was aware of the problem would matter. I would wager that EVEN IF THE COMPANY WAS DEVELOPING A FIX AT THE TIME THE SUIT WAS BROUGHT they would lose a lawsuit such as this.

    I'm with the other guy that said this: You smell a lot like a civil litigation lawyer.


    --
  • Personally I feel that this was either
    1.) Toshiba has some really horrible laywers who don't understand the American legal system. Suppositivly they settled because they feared as much as a 90 billion suit if it went to court. Seriously I don't care how wacked the judge/jury was I couldn't see it being much more than the settlement.
    2.) The lawsuit wasn't really about the floppy drive at all. The guy had some really sensative information concerning something to do with Toshiba and blackmailed them for 2 billion. What better way to explain such a payment to the IRS.
  • Does a good company deserve this? And perhaps more importantly, can our country survive this behavior?

    As far as I can tell, using the latest economic indicators, I think our country is not only surviving this "behavior", it is thriving. Unlike you and the Republican legislators who are willing to give big business carte blanche to do anything they want without any of the requisite responibility, I don't look at big business as the victim.

    You mention the McDonald's case,which is a popular rallying cry for people on your side of the issue. At face value the case does sound like a crock. But when the case when to court, it was determined that McDonald's was serving coffee at some absurdly high temperature (50 degrees higher than what other establishments served coffee) that people were scalding their tongues left and right all over the place. McDonald's was aware of this problem because several employees had complained, yet they refused to address their concerns.

    The fact of the matter is that neither you nor I have a complete picture of the Toshiba case. One thing I do know, however, is that NO ONE claimed to have been hurt by it. One million computers sold, and not one complaint. That gives you some idea of just how minor a problem it is.

    Toshiba may have decided to settle to ensure that no one stepped forward who had been damaged by this problem. They made a legal decision and I have no problem with it.

    The legal system isn't perfect but it's better than anything else in the world. A fine balance has to be leveraged to ensure that the rights of the consumers are not trampled to protect the interests of big business. Capping punitive damages and substituting arbitration for jury trials goes away from that.
  • You're peddling pure garbage. You've obviously have never been on a jury in your life. People take that responsibility very seriously. Instead of watching Matlock, go out in the real world. You might find it interesting.
  • The majority of the settlement is in discounts for purchase of their own products. The real bottom line cost is much less than $1B.

    Still, it does smell like too much for this particular complaint. Could it be that they are really afraid that something else much more insidious would come out during discovery? What if they really aren't that concerned about loosing on this particular case, but that the information uncovered during discovery could lead to the real problem they fear?
    Never underestimate the power of wishful thinking to filter what the eyes see and what the ears hear

  • I couldn't disagree more. (Score:4)

    by FallLine ( 12211 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:38AM (#1575405)
    I couldn't disagree more. 2.1 billion is not chump change, even for a company of Compaq's size. Smaller firms are hit harder, but big business is hit hard all the time (eg: Ford, Cesna, GM, etc) -- they're running scared. In fact, settlements such as there are proof. The fact that they'd rather CERTAINLY shell out 2.1 billion, than go all the way and risk god knows how much to an uncertain jury. The fact of the matter is that, despite selling more than a million such machines, not one person has actually filed a complaint as a result of actual damages. No one has proven that Compaq acted with malice, disregard, etc.

    Civil lawsuits are out of control in the US. They need to be curbed. I recognize that they have their place, but I see far many more abuses than legitimate cases (for reasonable dollar sum). Some cases just shouldn't have layman (non-technical, non-legal, etc) juries. But in lieu of that, they need to cap punitive damages, or simply demand that they go to charity instead. That would eliminate a great deal of these suits. Not only would we see fewer frauds being awarded the big bucks, but you would get secondary and tertiary effects. Namely, companies would be more willing to litigate these cases, rather than settling anything with the potential for high dollar awards -- serving to further cut back on fraudulent cases. It would create a more equitable system.

  • While I understand (Score:3)

    by Shandon ( 53512 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:39AM (#1575406)
    <sarcasm>
    that Toshiba did something heinous and horrid by perpetuating this error-prone floppy controller chip for a decade, while the error was known, is it possible that we could pay the lawyers a little more, for the service that they have provided to mankind, nay, the whole universe. It would be worth putting several quality hardware vendors out of business just to help those guys buy a couple of new Mercedes...
    </sarcasm>

    But really, rather than the lawyers, or the justice system, doesn't the public also have a part to play in the ridiculous levels of awards (odd word choice, that) at trial? It is the jury that will award multi-billion dollar punitive damages - thus leading to exagerated settlements like the above. The lawyers work for a percentage, and will always be overpaid. But an under-educated, unthinking, under-clued jury is at the root of these types of settlements. It is the jury who says "These people are just awful - let's fine them 10 billion dollars", as if awards of that magnitude don't have social costs of their own. If juries were reasonable, then... oh, forgive me, what AM I saying.

  • The Most Troubling Aspect (Score:3)

    by Bob(TM) ( 104510 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @09:45AM (#1575408)
    OK, Toshiba dropped the ball - they should have fixed it when they found out there was a problem.

    But $2 Billion?!? What sort of accounting could you ever possibly do that would result in a loss potential for consumers of that amount. Even if you assume punitives, I couldn't see it.

    You don't even hear those kinds of numbers where people die (unless you count tobacco, where tens of thousands were hurt and killed).

    I respect Toshiba for settling. But, I wish they would slug it out in court.
  • I wonder if I could sue MS for my lost term paper when it bluescreened on me...

    Hmmm... that is comparable to an architect drawing his blueprints on an etch-a-sketch

  • You like to paint the world in black and white, good and bad, left and right, up and down; what results is a grey drab world. Over the years, I've observed the world becoming "safer", or people such as yourself like to say "erring to the side of safety". Well, I call it a greyer, more joyless existence.

    In the name of that one in a million freak accident, we can't live our lives out as we see fit. In recent years, this trend has been growing. Our children are that much poorer for it. You ever wonder where that diving board went at your local swimming pool? How about the slide? The swings? You name it, they're disappearing fast across the country. Childrens' blocks? We can't have those, they might hit one another with it. Hot coffee, nope can't have that either. Silicon encased medical devices? Nope. Private conversations with teachers? Nope, can't have those either too much liability. It just doesn't end...

    It is a shame. Quite frankly, ignoring the economic costs, this is all I need to throw my hands up in disgust; that you can advocate playing Russian Rullete with our companies, lives, and well being never ceases to amaze me. Every time a tort goes to trial, you would pull the trigger. Our tort system isn't equitable for anyone, regardless of your leanings, left or right. It is slow, inefficient, inaccurate, and highly costly.

    Jury trials have their place, such as in criminal trials. They don't belong in highly technical tort trials. The juries aren't pursueded by the facts, they're pursued by the lawyers and so called "experts". Whomever has the most pitifull case wins. Nor should they be given the power to determine a company's future when it is clearly unreasonable.

    I love my country, but the tort system is sick. We are one of the only countries in the world which still uses juries to adjudicate. We are certainly one of the only countries which awards over a billion dollars to an individual. Would you have us believe that the US is the only country where customers aren't trampled on, or that they're tampled on less? I, and many others would disagree. Infact, there is a strong argument that it is actually more hurtful than helpful....Products and services certainly are disappearing.

    Anyhow, I could go on all day long, but I've got better things to do than argue with a naive kid with out practical experience or legal training. No amount of words will change your mind, you'll just have to learn the hard way. No offense intended.
  • How, precisely, is settling for $2 billion dollars a demonstration of invulnerability? By agreeing to that amount (which is a significant fraction of their worth...), they've acknowledged that they may not be able to beat the suit -- despite the fact that apparently nobody's demonstrated actual data loss or other incidental, related damages at all.

    Um, right. Settling is often NOT a win for the defendant; often it's a Pyrrhic victory.

  • Hmmm.. (Score:2)

    by jfunk ( 33224 )
    Toshiba laptop... still under warranty... bought in the US...

    I have never had a problem with my floppy drive, though.

    Then again. I rarely use it and I run Linux.

    I like how all of the unclaimed pseudo-refunds are going to education. Now if only the greedy lawyers would send some over there as well rather than spending it on 30 cars, 10 houses, etc...

  • Need Some Quick Cash? (Score:4)

    by Bob(TM) ( 104510 ) on Saturday October 30, 1999 @10:00AM (#1575425)
    Hey, having trouble making ends meet? Follow Bob(TM)'s step by step guide:

    Path to easy street

    (1) Buy a piece of hardware from a big name company;

    (2) Test thoroughly to find all bugs (what are the odds that a given piece of hardware has a bug? Better to consider the odds of NOT having a bug).

    (3) Get a lawyer to bring a class action suit. Shouldn't have a problem finding these guys. Here are some possible sources:

    * Billboards or TV ads
    * Get a list of people who've bought scanners from Radio Shack. Should be pretty thick with 'em.
    * Stop by your county court house - look for the guys with briefcases and pencil-line mustaches.

    (4) Use the "what if I used my computer to control a nuclear medicine workstation" rationale for why the owe me big bucks. That gets 'em every time. You only need to show POTENTIAL harm, after all;

    (5) (Optional) Get the list of "guests" from the Jerry Springer show to help you demonstrate harm caused by the product;

    (6) Settle for bucks. Lawyers will get most. But, you know the real secret: VOLUME, VOLUME, VOLUME.

    (7) Lather, rinse, repeat (go to step 1).
  • Wow, what a neat little indictment against the American legal system. A trivial bug, foriegn companies scared to goto trial (or so they say) because of an insane settlement, and lawyers racking it in. Historians could just find this story and the OJ verdict and really understand the 90's.

    Sure, its a no-brainer that companies are responsible for their product, but is this bug worth anything near 1 BILLION dollars? Doubt it. They didn't even show us the obligatory, "My business lost 100 million dollars due to Toshiba's incompetance" sob story. Instead, we just get notice that this was a known bug, somewhat trivial, and somebody better pay us.

    But somewhere out there is a college student who was up all night writing out a term report on his Toshiba, saved it to a floppy and ran out to the computer lab to print it out, only to find his data corrupt. Right now he's saying, "Take that you bastards at Toshiba!" At least he's happy.

    Then again, who thinks floppy is a reliable media? I'm always worried about saving anything near a megabyte on a floppy.

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