![Education Education](http://a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/education_64.png)
![United States United States](http://a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/usa_64.png)
California Late Start Law Aims To Make School Less of a Yawn (apnews.com) 168
Hmmmmmm shares a report from the Associated Press: Beginning this fall high schools in the nation's most populous state can't start before 8:30 a.m. and middle schools can't start before 8 a.m. under a 2019 first-in-the-nation law forbidding earlier start times. Similar proposals are before lawmakers in New Jersey and Massachusetts. Advocates say teens do better on school work when they're more alert, and predict even broader effects: a reduction in suicides and teen car accidents and improved physical and mental health.
The average start time for the nation's high schools was 8 a.m. in 2017-18 but about 42% started before then, including 10% that began classes before 7:30 a.m., according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Middle school start times in 2011-12, the most recent available from NCES, were similar. That's too early for adolescents whose bodies are wired to stay up later than at other ages because of a later release of the sleep hormone melatonin, scientists say. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that middle and high schools start at 8:30 a.m. or later. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends eight-10 hours of sleep per night for 13- to 18-year-olds.
The average start time for the nation's high schools was 8 a.m. in 2017-18 but about 42% started before then, including 10% that began classes before 7:30 a.m., according to the National Center for Education Statistics. Middle school start times in 2011-12, the most recent available from NCES, were similar. That's too early for adolescents whose bodies are wired to stay up later than at other ages because of a later release of the sleep hormone melatonin, scientists say. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that middle and high schools start at 8:30 a.m. or later. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends eight-10 hours of sleep per night for 13- to 18-year-olds.
About time (Score:5, Interesting)
About time those knuckleheads in California did something that makes sense. Everybody knows high school kids are night dwellers and most teenagers are late sleepers. By forcing high school kids to come to school at 7:00 AM you're literally depriving these kids of sleep time. But don't take my word for it. Here [psd202.org] are the school start times in my district. Yeah, that's right. Kids who go to bed at 1 AM are required to show up at 7:05 AM, while elementary school kids whose bed times are normally around 8:00 PM start the school day at 9:05 AM. Gotta hand it to fucktards in my city.
The thing is, I understand a bit of what's going on, although I don't agree with it. They want parents who have a 9-5 job to be able to drive their elementary kids to school (which doesn't actually work, because 9:05 is too late a start), and then they want the high school kids to get out at 2:00 so that they can double time it to home and be ready for the elementary kids to have someone watches them while the parents are still at work. But it doesn't always work like that. First of all many families don't have kids who are in high school and elementary at the same time. Secondly, many high school kids actually go to work after school. So, the end result is that high school kids get little sleep and elementary school kids wake everybody up at 5:00 AM and then watch cartoons and TV for 3.5 hours. We sure know how to do things backwards.
Re: (Score:3)
IIRC, my CA high school had a few classes at 7 AM. In college, 7:30 AM. They were optional since no one had to go to them at early. They were later hours.
Re:About time (Score:5, Informative)
You missed the part about being hard wired to stay up later. Teens who go to bed at 9 toss and turn until 1 A.M. and so develop an even less healthy attitude towards sleep.
Perhaps you're one of those people who only has a couple flash bulb memories until your 20s?
Re: (Score:3)
No I didn't. No one is hard wired. People form habits and habits can be adapted and broken. Set that teen an alarm every day at 6am, see if after a few days they'll still be up at 1AM, or if they either a) nap to adapt, or b) go to bed earlier because they are tired.
Perhaps you're one of those people who only has a couple flash bulb memories until your 20s?
No I'm one of the people who had no problem adjusting my sleep pattern when I suddenly go a job that involved a morning shift in my 20s. I'm also one of those people who doesn't attempt to find excuses for my own failings.
Re: (Score:2)
Your circadian rhythm, which is your 24 hour cycle (calculated by a group of about 20,000 neurons), is driven by your choronotype, genetics, external factors like sleep schedule, stress, etc., which is something you can shift with a disciplined schedule (some studies show it shifting in 2 to 3 week
Re: (Score:2)
Sorry, but I'm going to go with the many studies and experiments by experts that say teens ARE hard wired towards staying up and sleeping later in the day over your bald assertion.
Given determination and a big freaking hammer, you CAN put a square peg in a round hole but that doesn't make your answer "right".
It's also worth noting that your experience in your 20s is of limited relevance since you were not by definition a teen at that time.
Re: (Score:2)
Take your neo-Lysenkoist bullshit elsewhere. Let me guess, you're claiming that ADHD is just bad habits too?
You are denying science, both neurochemistry and evolution, with your ideological claptrap, to such a degree that I'm starting to wonder if you're a psychopath.
Re: (Score:2)
My solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
Teachers can have a real 9 to 5 job like most people, not 7 to 3
What? Who has a 9 to 5 job? Nobody, office jobs are all 8 to 5. Less a half-hour lunch and two legally mandated 15 minute breaks, that makes an 8 hour day, which is the standard.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm here 9 to 6 and you like it or I find something else.
Nobody in their right mind wants me to work for them before 9am. Unless productivity doesn't really matter to you, then carry on.
Re: (Score:2)
I actually have had some 9 to 6 time, which was nice. I could come in an hour early or late to my Tivoli job. Most things about that job sucked, though, notably excepting beer on Friday. It didn't really make up for the IBMization of the place, though, and AFAIK it has not survived.
I am actually at my most productive between about 6 and noon, those are my ideal work hours. And plenty of them per day, I think :)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm most productive somewhere between 3pm and midnight, that one time I worked for a company in San Diego (from Europe) was maybe the one job where I was the best rested and most efficient because I could actually work these hours.
I have a coworker like you. He comes at 6 and by 3pm, he's gone. I come around 9-10, we can share information and exchange some ideas, but both of us have ample time to work peacefully. And the office is staffed 12-14 hours a day instead of just 8, so our boss is happy, too.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I live in the shithole commonly known as America.
Zero of my jobs have ever been 9-5. I have had several jobs which were 8-5, all tech. (All of the less desirable jobs had stupid hours, which is part of why they were less desirable.)
Re: (Score:2)
I have had several jobs which were 8-5, all tech
What shit tech job have you had? I have been working in tech for 25 years and never once have I been asked to be in the office before 10am. But I have actual skills that are hard to find and valuable. Sounds like you are a wage slave. Get a better job and you won't have to wake up unnecessarily early and might actually have time for this thing called 'a life'.
Re: (Score:2)
So I started napping.
So did I. Usually from about 8am to 1-3pm (depending on when school ended).
Re: (Score:2)
I knew in high school that I needed more sleep than the early start times allowed. So I started napping.
You seem to be the only sane poster here who recognises that sleep depravation is something within *your* control. Kudos for not trying to blame the government for your lack of sleep like every other poster here.
I hated waking up early for school but ultimately I figured going to bed at 10pm and getting a good nights rest was worth it. The problem then came on the weekends where I would literally jetlag myself suddenly switching a 10pm bedtime for a 3am one. :-/
Get off my lawn... (Score:2)
I had water polo practice at 5AM, "Zero-Hour" at 6:45, and first period started at 8:00. Oh, and water polo again after school.
While miserable, it did at least prepare me for college and having 20-30% more credits per semester for the first few years than "normal." (Needed to get all the prerequisites out of the way, or you would end up a year behind if you didn't finish them because they were only offered in the spring or fall.)
Re: (Score:2)
All my school taught me was basically how to sleep with my eyes open without the idiot droning on in front of me noticing. Which prepared me nicely for both military service and management meetings.
Banksy (Score:3)
Re:Banksy (Score:5, Funny)
The early bird may catch the worm, but the early worm gets eaten. Also, the second mouse gets the cheese.
Re: (Score:2)
Early to bed early to rise gets you laid often what a surprise. BURMASHAVE,
Funny +1
Great idea if you ask me (Score:3)
Good start, but not enough (Score:2)
If they want school to be less of a yawn, they might want to teach something the kids can actually use. We're still stuck in a curriculum of fact rote learning, in a time when that information is available at the push of a button, anywhere and anytime. What we need to teach is problem solving skills and cooperation tactics.
Ok, granted, we do that inadvertently, by students figuring out ways to cheat without getting caught and how to crib from the neighbor.
Re: (Score:2)
If they want school to be less of a yawn, they might want to teach something the kids can actually use. We're still stuck in a curriculum of fact rote learning, in a time when that information is available at the push of a button, anywhere and anytime. What we need to teach is problem solving skills and cooperation tactics.
Most parents and teachers would agree with you. Even the students would be on board with that. However, how do you grade problem solving skills and cooperation tactics? Even worse, how do you grade problem solving skills in a way that doesn't give Karen a means to contest the grade because her little angel got a 'C', and it's a child's word against the teachers? Understanding history is vitally important, but there's not a lot of problem solving involved in learning it. Group projects are commonly panned be
Re: (Score:2)
"Karen, fuck off, if you don't like it, take your kids to another school, or homeschool them ... oh wait, you won't do that, after all, you only abuse the school as a convenient place to dump your spawn so it doesn't bother you"
That being said, there's no need to grade anything. Teach kids and if they learn, they learn. If they don't, they don't. Finally drop a project on them that they should be able to solve if they learned something, if they manage it, great, if they don't, well, there's always food stam
Why so early? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Even that's too early. My school started at 9. I was often late. I've never been a morning person.
I now start work at 10.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
0800-0900 seems to be normal for most "Western" countries I've been to. The US is an extreme outlier in school starting (and in a lot of other school related things, but let's not go there).
The general reasoning for that is going back 100 years so children could go to school and then in the afternoon help their parents with getting the harvest in and with chores.
Like so many things in the US, the reasoning behind things seems to go back 100's of years sometimes and really aren't 'of this time'.
Re: (Score:2)
Typically start times for elementary, junior high and high school were adjusted to optimize bus usage because there weren't enough (costs too much) to accommodate all at the same start time.
Re: (Score:2)
Schools here (Scotland) generally start between 8.30 and 9. Why do they start so early in America? I can't imagine that teachers want to start that early.
Because in 'Murica they don't have 5 miles to walk up hill both ways to get to school? /sarcasm
Why do you start so early? (Score:2)
When I went to a, rather expensive, school in England some decades ago, there was a school assembly at 08:30 and the first lesson was at 09:00. That is reasonable. A first class at 08:00 or 07:30 is definitely not!
I am aware from films and TV that you want us to believe that you set your alarms to wake up at 6 but I assumed that this may not be true or, if it is, it is because you have no public transport and have to all drive into work on your 32 lane highways.
Am 07:30 start is really stupid and 08:00 is
Buses and aftershchool activities (Score:3)
What this is glossing over is two things:
There are only so many buses and drivers, by having staggered starts between the traditionally earlier high school time and the later primary school time - the same buses and drivers can be used to serve both sets of routes.
Secondly, by having high schoolers get out earlier it opens up scheduling that can be used for: after school jobs, sports, extra circular activities, and even being able to get home to take care of younger siblings before parents get home.
Re: (Score:3)
Repercussions (Score:2)
I have lived in 2 places where I knew the school schedule - eastern PA and eastern MA. In both places elementary school started at ~9, middle school started at 8:20-8:30, and high school started at 7:20-7:30. I always thought this was the norm, not the 10% exception, but apparently so:
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2020/2... [ed.gov]
The logic I was always told was that it was a bussing problem - a limited number of buses that needed to transport all the grades. I wonder if CA is supplementing school district budgets to be
Good! (Score:2)
I always thought it was flat out crazy that my kids had to get on a bus at 6:xx
(Which meant of course that I had to get up even earlier ... go ahead, brag about your perfect kids, but I had to, lol)
Good move (Score:2)
I think it's cruel to have school start before 9:00AM for teenagers; their bodies are just not wired for early mornings.
We all know the real reasons for early start times: To make it easier for parents to park their kids at school before they head out to work.
Re: (Score:2)
In High School, I had to be there at 7 am for 45 min in the weight training and the rest for drills. Then you had to shower and be in class by 8:30.
I wonder how this affects period 0. (Score:2)
My kids went to California public schools. The local middle and high schools had a period 0, where students could show up around 7 AM to take an extra class. Some used this for PE, others for an extra language or AP class. Lots of the kids doing this were pretty happy about it because they're all overachievers.
Regardless of whether this is good or bad, I'm curious what the law says about this. Without period 0, those kids might not be able to join sports teams and/or will be finishing school really late.
Per
Re: (Score:2)
Lots of the kids doing this were pretty happy about it because they're all overachievers.
Not acceptable to differentiate over/under achievers. It sounds like a great idea, IMO. But a 'period 0' showing up in students' transcripts will set them apart from their classmates.
Bucket of crabs.
Simple solution (Score:2)
Set your watch ahead two or three hours. Don't like getting up until 9AM? Fine. Just live your life in your own personal time zone.
Moral of this story (Score:2)
The moral of this story is that California passes WAYYYY too many laws, thinking they are going to control everything in people's lives because they know better, while all the time claiming that they are the guardians of democracy and freedom.
defeats purpose of HS (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Later wake up will just mean later bedtime and you'll push issues downstream.
Also you'd push the issues over to the teachers denying them time in the evenings. So this might mean that some teachers changes job.
Re:now the kids will fare much better... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pointless cynicism. When I was at school it started at 9AM and finished at 3:30pm, that wouldn't be denying teachers evening time.
what does that even mean? If you can wake up later then surely that means you have a better chance of getting more sleep.
I'm more inclined to trust the science than random internet nay-sayers.
Re:now the kids will fare much better... (Score:5, Interesting)
, that wouldn't be denying teachers evening time
Actually completely irrelevant to the discussion. Teachers don't have evening time as it is. Well it's Saturday morning, I'm sipping coffee and arguing with randoms on the internet, while the wife is grading her kids assignments, which she didn't get finished last night despite working until 1am.
what does that even mean?
I think what he was trying to say is the same difference between morning and evening people. I typically go to bed at 1 or 2 am, a colleague of mine is typically in bed at 10pm, we both get our 8 hours.
Mind you the science is there for a reason. Kids don't perform well when forced to turn into morning people.
Re:now the kids will fare much better... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm sipping coffee and arguing with randoms on the internet, while the wife is grading her kids assignments, which she didn't get finished last night despite working until 1am.
It's like someone said:
"I know, we can't pay teachers very much, how about we make up for it by burying them in vast amounts of paperwork."
Re: (Score:2)
"I know, we can't pay teachers very much, how about we make up for it by burying them in vast amounts of paperwork."
They should do what my daughter's 5th-grade teacher did:
1. Make most assignments multiple choice.
2. Use a bubble sheet for the answers with each kid assigned a roster number that is also bubbled in.
3. As they complete each assignment, the kids run their answer sheet through an OCR scanner on the teacher's desk that automatically scans, timestamps, and records their score.
Advantages:
1. Kids get immediate feedback.
2. The teacher's workload is greatly reduced.
3. The kids are prepared for the SAT, GRE, LSAT, an
Re: (Score:2)
They should do what my daughter's 5th-grade teacher did: 1. Make most assignments multiple choice.
Sure. Although at some point you have to understand that multiple choice doesn't work for everything, like critical thinking
3. The kids are prepared for the SAT, GRE, LSAT, and other MC fill-in-the-bubble tests that will determine their fate in life.
I trust you are being cynical here? A person's fate is controlled by themselves more than any silly tests.
I have not taken any of those tests.
What I did in the deep dark past was register as an adjunct student. After a few placement tests, and any remedial classes, and a few semesters, you become a regular student.
Drive has a lot more to do with fate than a silly test. Althoug
Re: (Score:2)
But this won't hide the stats from the kids that are failing to progress. We are trying to get rid of grades because they hurt people's feelings and lower their self esteem.
I had the kind of system you explain for Algebra 2 in 11th grade and it was pretty awesome. You worked at your own pace and if you got ahead of the class, good for you. This gave the teacher more time to help those who needed it while also letting the same teacher help the few gifted students push farther on.
We had one student doing calc
Re: (Score:2)
I'm sipping coffee and arguing with randoms on the internet, while the wife is grading her kids assignments, which she didn't get finished last night despite working until 1am.
It's like someone said:
"I know, we can't pay teachers very much, how about we make up for it by burying them in vast amounts of paperwork."
Teachers are paid well, at least in my state. Their mean annual income is far above average for the state. For nine months of work. It's higher than the mean for police officers, for example.
There's always this notion that teachers are paid "not enough", but little actual thought or justification of what that even means.
Re: now the kids will fare much better... (Score:2)
I've never heard of anyone choosing teaching as a backup job other than university scientists. People teach because they want to. And that fact alone puts downward pressure on teachers' wages.
Re: (Score:2)
I think what he was trying to say is the same difference between morning and evening people. I typically go to bed at 1 or 2 am, a colleague of mine is typically in bed at 10pm, we both get our 8 hours.
Mind you the science is there for a reason. Kids don't perform well when forced to turn into morning people.
Would it then make sense if all children be assessed for their sleep wake cycle, then have them come to school at whatever time is determined to be the right time for them?
Because not all children are morning people. Not all children are afternoon or evening people. Punishing morning people for people who perform better at a later time is just choosing a different group to punish.
You hit on it in your statement in fact. It's a very simple equation. If a person needs X hours of sleep, and needs to get u
Re: (Score:2)
Would it then make sense if all children be assessed for their sleep wake cycle, then have them come to school at whatever time is determined to be the right time for them?
Having some schedule flexibility is an interesting idea. Since most schools already break the day into multiple periods, they could add an additional period and students could choose whether to start early or late.
Re: (Score:2)
Children aren't morning people or night people they are human animals whose best sleep cycle is determined by natural circadian cycles which are currently being screwed up by modern technologies that emit light.
"That's too early for adolescents whose bodies are wired to stay up later than at other ages because of a later release of the sleep hormone melatonin, scientists say"
Re: (Score:2)
Children aren't morning people or night people they are human animals whose best sleep cycle is determined by natural circadian cycles which are currently being screwed up by modern technologies that emit light.
And yet, since artificial light has been around a long time. If you want to dismiss oil lamps (you shouldn't, but I suspect you will) Artificial lighting has been around since the early 1800's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] And if you perchance accept that oil lamps might be used to draw back the darkness, the timeline goes back a few thousand years.
"That's too early for adolescents whose bodies are wired to stay up later than at other ages because of a later release of the sleep hormone melatonin, scientists say"
You are quite prejudiced, my friend. A statement that claims all adolescents stay up late and are incapable of arising is very prejudiced.
And yet someh
Re: (Score:2)
Pointless cynicism. When I was at school it started at 9AM and finished at 3:30pm, that wouldn't be denying teachers evening time.
How?
I know teachers do work beyond class time, how will this end up making them work later, if it's that much of an issue why not let them come in earlier? Also many may prefer to start and finish later.
what does that even mean? If you can wake up later then surely that means you have a better chance of getting more sleep.
I'm more inclined to trust the science than random internet nay-sayers.
What it "means" is that kids won't get any extra sleep, which is utter bollocks for the reasons you mentioned.
Most of the world already does a 9-3 school day, or some variant of. I went to school in a very hot part of Australia and we started at 8-2:30. It was hot as fucking balls by 7:30 anyway (often
Re: (Score:2)
Pointless cynicism. When I was at school it started at 9AM and finished at 3:30pm, that wouldn't be denying teachers evening time.
what does that even mean? If you can wake up later then surely that means you have a better chance of getting more sleep.
I'm more inclined to trust the science than random internet nay-sayers.
Most people sleep what they need to sleep. If a person wakes up later, they will very likely go to sleep much later.
And between us chachalacas, The idea that science proves that a person who wakes up later will go to bed at the same time as before that extra time was granted is a bit sketchy.
It's rather like wanting a longer bath towel, so you cut one end off and sew it to the other end. If a student needs 10 hours of sleep, and has to get up at 7 AM to get ready for school, wouldn't they just go to
Re: (Score:2)
Give this man a microphone!!!
But then you know you are expecting some parenting and personal responsibility to kick in. USA is not about personal responsibility. Clearly society needs to change because reasons.
Re: now the kids will fare much better... (Score:2)
Science says you're wrong.
Re:now the kids will fare much better... (Score:5, Informative)
Later wake up will just mean later bedtime and you'll push issues downstream.
I'm literally giving up the ability to mod to post this: no. Yeah that makes for a catchy comeback, but isn't how biology works.
You can't push your go-to-bed time arbitrarily early, and in particular with kids and adolescents (i.e. "teens"), biology will push it towards later times in the night. They cannot, as per nature, go to bed early, and need, as per nature, to sleep longer.
Check Matthew Walker in this video [youtube.com], for instance. The whole podcast is gold, but you can skip to times like 1:10:00 for instance, to get some info about sleep, teenagers and schools.
(FYI, Matthew Walker is the sleeping pope of this planet. More than 90% of what we know about sleep we've only learned during the past 20-30 years, and everything of what we've learned during that time we learned because of Walker.)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
He's talking about himself, not teenagers. Some people just aren't very good at considering others that may be different to themselves.
Exactly, but we're placing all teenagers as a monolithic group, deciding that the start time for school is wrong, and depriving all teenagers of their 8 to 10 hours of needed sleep, and ruining them permanently.
Does the science say that all teenagers are identical in the amount of sleep they need, the times that they function best, and even better, give examples of failed adults who would have been successful if only they started school at a later time, leading to their increased knowledge retention and
Re: now the kids will fare much better... (Score:2)
If a student performs best at 8 in the evening, or 3 in the morning, who are we to deny them their best life and chance of success in it?
"We" are the faculty and school administration who have to design a schedule around students who will choose to wander in at any time between 6:00AM and noon. And soon, "we" will be your employer or local business who don't want to pay for extra shifts to accomodate your whims.
You need 8 hours of sleep? It's up to you to count backwards from when school/work starts and hit the sack then. Can't get to sleep until it's been dark for 6 hours? Take a look at how people in Alaska or Iceland deal with 24 hours o
Re: (Score:2)
If a student performs best at 8 in the evening, or 3 in the morning, who are we to deny them their best life and chance of success in it?
"We" are the faculty and school administration who have to design a schedule around students who will choose to wander in at any time between 6:00AM and noon. And soon, "we" will be your employer or local business who don't want to pay for extra shifts to accomodate your whims.
You need 8 hours of sleep? It's up to you to count backwards from when school/work starts and hit the sack then. Can't get to sleep until it's been dark for 6 hours? Take a look at how people in Alaska or Iceland deal with 24 hours of daylight. It's a solved problem.
Talking to the wrong person. I get 5 hours per night, no more no less, and I have this thing - If I am supposed to be at a place at 30 seconds after 6:57 in the morning, I darn well will show up at exactly 30 seconds after 6:57 in the morning, as determined by GPS.
My point in all of this is that the idea that we are making life intolerable for the poor children who are mentally and irreversibly damaged by the torturous hours we force upon them is fresh bullshit.
We already have a generation of adult ch
Re: (Score:2)
Talking to the wrong person.
Sorry. I was aiming this at the general population of snowflakes that can't wake up.
High school is, in part, intended to teach life skills. Among these are how to allocate time for sleep and other stuff. How to set an alarm clock and other things that will be required of them once they graduate and step into the adult world.
the workplace will just get that much weirder
The workplace will get along just fine without them.
Re: (Score:2)
Talking to the wrong person. I get 5 hours per night, no more no less
Not sure of you're one of those, but if you are, kudos to you: there is a genetic modification that allows people to come by with 4-5 hours of sleep per night, on average. But here's the catch, as Walker himself puts it: "The number of people who have this modification, expressed in percent, and rounded to the next integer, is zero." So there's less than 0.5% of the population who have this.
For all of those who don't, bad news: significantly larger dementia, cancer, cardivascular failure risk in old(er) age
Re: (Score:2)
You need 8 hours of sleep? It's up to you to count backwards from when school/work starts and hit the sack then.
Yeah. Sounds just about as good as "you need 8 hours of sleep per day? Take 2am-4am, 8am-11am, and 3pm-6pm."
Repeat after me: "THIS ISN'T HOW BIOLOGY WORKS".
Can't get to sleep until it's been dark for 6 hours? Take a look at how people in Alaska or Iceland deal with 24 hours of daylight. It's a solved problem.
First, it isn't just about "hours of darkness", it's about the circadian rhythm. More than the time elapsed from last light plays into that.
Second, regions with extreme days / nights are not without their own set of problems (higher depression / burnout rates etc), in particular when they're forced into a regular 9-5 "must earn money or die" rhythm.
Have
Re: (Score:2)
What I want to know is how do you get that salmon to start smoldering and give off enough smoke to get you high?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You can't push your go-to-bed time arbitrarily early
Of course you can. You just can't do it in a big step in one go. If what you said was right then people would never be able to change timezones, something that billions of people cope with every year via holiday or simple DST.
Just because one youtuber struggles with it doesn't mean there is some scientifically accepted fact that people are cognitively pre-wired for a certain sleep cycle. Hell it doesn't even properly follow light as anyone who live north or south of the equator and deals with a thing called
Re: (Score:2)
You can't push your go-to-bed time arbitrarily early
Of course you can. You just can't do it in a big step in one go.
You can adjust, you can adapt, you can cope but I have my doubts you can really adapt your sleep schedule arbitrarily without consequence. I never quite get used to the DST switch, my bedtime doesn't slew earlier or later, I just sort of wind up ping-ponging between up too late and falling into bed too early and then sleeping in very late on weekends to make up for it.
During lockdown I was able to start the work day somewhat arbitrarily and before I knew it I was going to bed when the sun rose and getting u
Re: (Score:2)
Of course you can. You just can't do it in a big step in one go. If what you said was right then people would never be able to change timezones, something that billions of people cope with every year via holiday or simple DST.
It's called a circadian rhythm.
People can change timezones is the perfect example why you can't: if you could, there would be no more jetlag, people would simply live by their hometown timezone. But their rhythm slowly changes to match the day-night rhythm of where they're at. It's actually f-ing difficult to stop your body from doing that.
Oh, and DST: every year, among the 1.6 bn people that do the switch, the heart attack rate following the shorter night, are up by more than 20% (I think around 23% or so
Re: (Score:2)
"(FYI, Matthew Walker is the sleeping pope of this planet. More than 90% of what we know about sleep we've only learned during the past 20-30 years, and everything of what we've learned during that time we learned because of Walker.)"
Bullshit. Plenty of what Walker claims to have discovered was discovered already in the 60's by various air forces and navies, many of those studies were also publicised(I know the Swedish studies done by FOA and Flygvapnet were publicised already in the 60's for example). Walk
Re: (Score:2)
OTOH, what good is starting at 8 if the kids don't actually wake up and start forming memories until 9 or 10?
Re: (Score:2)
Later wake up will just mean later bedtime and you'll push issues downstream.
Best
Summary
Ever!
There is a peculiar thing going on these days where people somehow believe that there is no difference in sleep/wake cycles, that all people need exactly the same amount of sleep.
You must be a morning person. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Setting a start time in the morning doesn't deny you sleep. Your own inability to manage your time denies you sleep. The arsehole is within.
That said I'm with you, totally not a morning person here so I do get grumpy when I'm forced to go to bed earlier in an effort to not torture myself.
Bullshit. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Nature doesn't tell anyone to stay up until 11pm or later. Electric lighting and other crap does. Without all of that stuff, people would go to bed at you know, sunset.
Re: (Score:2)
Wrong. A lot of people are wired to stay up well until after sunset. In terms of evolutionary history, they were our nightshift sentries against nocturnal predators etc, and then the real early risers would take over.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Nature tells you when to go to sleep and when to wake up.
Yes it does. So stop staring at your screens until odd hours of the morning and actually go to sleep when you feel tired. You'll find nature gives you a metric fuckton of scope to adjust your sleep patterns to suit what you need.
Set an alarm every day at 6am. Nature will quickly remind you after a day or two that you're no longer going to bed at 1am. But I get it, that requires will power to enact a change, to understand nature and use it to achieve your goals, rather than just blaming the world for not sui
Re: (Score:2)
You're talking a lot of bullshit in this thread. Adenosine/Dopamine balance is pretty hard regulated in your body, and different people are hardwired for different schedules. And before you start yapping like a neo-Lysenkoist, no, you can't just WILL yourself to healthily adapt to a new schedule. Adaptation is something that takes several generations.
Already in the 50's and 60's, sleep research in air forces and navies all over the world identified just how deadly improper sleep could be. And sleep patterns
Re: (Score:2)
Setting a start time in the morning doesn't deny you sleep. Your own inability to manage your time denies you sleep. The arsehole is within.
Exactly. It would make a certain amount of sense to attempt young people to get the sleep then need, rather than assume that if school starts later, students will all go to be at the same time they did before.
As a person who was once a teenager, I tended to stay up as late as I could. Having an extra hour before school started in the morning would just enable me to stay up an extra hour at night. Seems like the innate nature of teenagers to do that.
Re: (Score:2)
Still better than Reuters, whose primary revenue stream is apparently now selling information about you to trackers (you can't view their content without javascript any more...)
Re: (Score:2)
Correction, looks like they changed it back.
Re: (Score:2)
I have to wonder if some of the high schools that reported starting at 7:30 are actually for elective or non-accredited classes. I can't imagine first period starting that early for regular classes.
[Edited]
Holy crap. I just checked the start times for the schools around here and found our local high schools start at 7:20AM ! I guess the shortage of bus drivers has caused the school district to stagger the start times of the elementary, middle, and high schools so fewer buses can handle more students bot
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm surprised we didn't have more injuries with all the tired students in that period trying to work the power tools. So many close calls.
Re: (Score:2)
My high school started at 7:45am and finished at 2:10pm. Awful. In college I didn't schedule any classes before 11am.
Re: (Score:2)
Or as people in the cooler areas call it "The time when it's still dark outside before 8am".
Re: (Score:2)
Or as people in the cooler areas call it "The time when it's still dark outside before 8am".
Obviously OP is a troll, but temperature has little to do with it. The UK is further north than the contiguous US. London is about on the same latitude as Goose Bay, and Inverness is almost as far north as Hoth. In winter, I set out for school before dawn and arrived after sunset.
Re: (Score:2)
Taking a crap curriculum and papering over it with smartphones and youtube doesn't make it more interesting.
Watching a dull ass-youtube video then doing a bunch of pointless, repetitive exercises is crap which ever way you slice it. It doesn't matter how colourful and shiny the textbooks or how glittery the animations on some sort of learning app.
I'm thinking of maths in the US, since I did a little bit of tutoring for a friend's son, and holy shitballs was it awful. No amount of smart tech will make that
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Well, some of us don't have kids that aspire to be galley slaves when they grow up.
Re: (Score:2)