Why the Widening Gender Gap In Computer Science?

ruheling writes "From yesterday's New York Times: ' What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science?' In many US universities, over the past decade, there has been deliberate effort to integrate and encourage women and girls to get more involved in the 'hard' sciences, engineering, and math. However, instead of the proportion of women to men increasing, in Computer Science the opposite is actually true. Specifically, in 2001-2, only 28 percent of all undergraduate degrees in computer science went to women. Now many computer science departments report that women now make up less than 10 percent of the newest undergraduates. What's going on here, folks?"

Obvious....

You guys are being creepy. Girls don't like creepy dudes leering at them all the time.

Re:Obvious....

No doubt that the CS field is "socially challenged" at times. However, there are plenty of women in the military. These women face an almost institutionalized form of sexual harassment. This has not dimensioned the enrollment of females into the armed services.

I second your call for male nerds to dial down the stalker instinct. You aren't the first to complain of it.

While we're Blue Skying, I'd also like to call for wider adoption of deodorant in the CS field.

Re:Obvious....

I think nationalism is something that has a stronger appeal to people than geekdom. "American" has turned into a somewhat creepy religion.

Re:Obvious....

well... yes. Sexual harassment is a huge issue for female students/workers. One girl to a dozen guys, you're going to get hit on, a LOT. Even after I got married, I still got chatted up left and right (don't guys check for rings anymore?) and I really don't like it. It feels like the only reason half my co-workers talk to me is because I'm the only one with tits in the place... not because I'm smart, not because I can code with the best of them, not because I'm funny, or cheerful or anything else.

The "OMFG BOOBS! Let's go talk to them" effect creates a really hostile environment, which causes many of us to change majors/jobs... which makes women even more rare, which makes the next set of boobs even more rare... vicious cycle.

Re:Obvious....

"don't guys check for rings anymore?"

Why bother? With divorce and infidelity so popular these days, who cares about a piece of metal on your finger?

BTW, I'm not the harassing type. My workplace seems mercifully free of that and reasonably well balanced (for a software house). Just my observation on modern society.

Re:Obvious....

tits || gtfo

Women don't want to do CS?

For some reason its hard to accept that a lot of women simply aren't interested in studying CS, engineering, or hard science.

Its a similar problem to something like Nursing, in the other direction. At my graduation, the CS group sat right behind the nursing group. There's lots of comments at how the CS group was 80% male. There were no comments at how the nursing group was 97% female.

At some point, the reality has to set in that women on average simply aren't interested, and all the incentives in the world won't change that.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

Women and men are different, feminism seems to think "Equal"="same". This is simply incorrect, the sexes are different and so are attracted to differing professions. Maybe men have a higher aptitude for the hard sciences because the simply find them more interesting and so pay more attention? Nursing requires an ability to deal with blood, urine, and shit of other people, I find women aree more able to deal with this kind of thing. Why is it important for more women to do "hard sceine /mathematics" jobs anyway? Let women do what they like/are good at, and men can do the same, k.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

Unfortunately, the article mentions that in the 80s, female enrollment in CS was closer to parity with males. Something has changed since then and I doubt it's biological.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

Women and men are different, feminism seems to think "Equal"="same". This is simply incorrect, the sexes are different and so are attracted to differing professions.

Well said! While there is nothing preventing a woman from pursing a CS degree, why do so many people fail to see the obvious.. Women are generally not interested in CS and/or engineering. I have several female friends (non slashdot reading females) who have absolutely no interest in CS. When I talk to them about computers they look at me like I'm a freak. They are more interested in jobs that are more "social". This could be why men prefer action/horror movies, and women prefer drama/romance movies such as "Sex & the City".

Rather than forcing women into CS, I say let them choose what they want to do. Women tend to be more in touch with their emotions than men are, and hence tend to prefer jobs that allow emotional freedom and creativity. Many men would be find in a non-emotionally stimulating environment.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

So that's obviously the case, but the point of studying the topic is: "why?". It's also important to determine if this is by their own choice or if women are subtly coerced into their disinterest.

I helped out with FIRST LEGO League at Georgia Tech a few years back. FIRST LEGO is a robotics competition for middle-school students using LEGO automation parts to perform various tasks. There were tons of girls participating at all levels, and it was pretty noticeable how different the demographics were between the middle school competitors and the typical college-age engineering students at Gatech. Thus, it's worth asking whether girls seem to lose interest in engineering as they get older, and if so, why?

If it's purely biological (the parts of the brain that determine interests are gender-specific), then so be it. If, however, it's due to upbringing and society's pressures, then it's a topic worth discussing. Indeed, it is probably desirable to change it. Why limit the pool of intellect in a field to men? You're potentially losing 50% of the problem solving skills, assuming men and women are equally capable.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

For some reason its hard to accept that a lot of women simply aren't interested in studying CS, engineering, or hard science.

Now for fifty comments about how "men and women are different" without any recognition that historically, "male" and "female" professions can and do change.

Medicine, for example, used to be almost entirely dominated by men. Now many medical schools have 50 percent or more women in their entering classes.

The real issue, I believe, is that most people need to feel comfortable in their chosen career, and for many women the culture of computer science doesn't seem to have a place for them.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

Key paragraph from TFA:

What's particularly puzzling is that the explanations for under-representation of women that were assembled back in 1991 applied to all technical fields. Yet women have achieved broad parity with men in almost every other technical pursuit. When all science and engineering fields are considered, the percentage of bachelor's degree recipients who are women has improved to 51 percent in 2004-5 from 39 percent in 1984-85, according to National Science Foundation surveys.

"Women aren't interested in X" has historically been applied to X = medicine, business, politics ... and it's always been wrong. There's something specific about CS here, and I don't think it's the field.

Women aren't a "minority", either....

Last I checked, they comprised about 51% of the population....

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

A few years ago, I was approached by someone canvassing for support as a candidate for the post of Women's Officer in my student union (there is no Men's Officer). She said 'Women make up 52% of the population, don't you think we should protect this minority?' Needless to say, she didn't get my vote.

Re:Women don't want to do CS?

You should talk to a few RN's before you make the assertion that a nursing graduate has a more healthy lifestyle than a CS graduate. One of the nurses at the flu clinic recently had just come off of three straight "twelves." I was glad that it was the other lady who was giving me my shot . . .

Widening gap in first posts

Why do they pick and choose industries to focus on. No-one raises a stink about shortage of female garbage collectors.

And I haven't heard a big push to increase males in areas dominated my women, e.g. elementary education.

Re:Widening gap in first posts

And I haven't heard a big push to increase males in areas dominated my women, e.g. elementary education.

Actually, from today's Boston Globe: Hunt is on for more men to lead classrooms [boston.com].

Re:Widening gap in first posts

Actually that does hit the news every so often, usually in relation to the daemonisation of men seeking to work with kids.

Males are in decline, leaving the traditional female sectors even more to women for fear of being branded "too interested" in working with children etc. Some folks are decrying it because kids won't have any male role models left. I think it's just what you get when society consumes itself with frivolous fears and scares itself with a new pretend evil each week.

Comes of people being comfortable and having nothing to really be afraid of, they have to invent or inflate stuff.

Re:Widening gap in first posts

daemonisation of men

I got fired from my last job, so I'm staying home with the kids. I suppose that means I got Terminated, and I Stay Resident instead.

This Is the Part ...

... where everyone jumps on me, the young white male programmer in a low level position. For everything I've done, for all the women I've sexually harassed out of computer science, for all the minorities I've laughed and jeered at through entire classes, for all the old men I've found in my field and killed A-Clockwork-Orange style, for all the alienating I've done by creating an "aura" or "mood" set against women.

Has anyone ever once argued that maybe--just maybe--I really really like computers?

What's the ratio in nursing? 20 females:1 male? So here's your solution: take all the entry level students from these two professions and even them out regardless of what the individual wants to do. See how happy you make everybody.

Or better yet, unfairly weight the minority sex in each of those classes, that's fair because I definitely was given a detailed account of the outside world while I was in my mother's womb and then filled out a scantron card for what I wanted to be--a white male in the United States with no heritage whatsoever.

Brain size

With props to Will Ferrell, the funniest man alive:

A woman's brain is one-third the size of ours. It's science.

The brainy girls are going to med school

The smart girls are going to med school or veterinary medicine. They see the creepy geek guys leering at them like they've never seen a live female before and figure if they're going to need to deal with some horse's butt, they might as well go to vet school.

Why is gender 'equality' so important?

Seriously, why does every career or activity have to have an exact 50-50 mix of males and females? Last time I checked, the hormonal balance in men and women were quite a bit different and each sex has a general preference to what interests them. The examples of teachers, nurses, and garbage collectors are excellent examples. The two sexes are different. Why do so many people have a hard time accepting that?

Re:The girls are smarter

In terms of money, that seems to be true.

I've recently read a Groklaw article that mentioned a salary dispute between two lawyers. Both claimed to usually charge $400 per hour. AFAIK even highly sought after IT consultants rarely get away with that kind of fees.