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Mafiaboy Gets His Wrist Slapped 373

Posted by CmdrTaco from the what-a-lame-sentance dept.
An anonymous reader writes: "Mafiaboy, the Canadian 'hacker' that did the DOS on Ebay, Amazon, Excite, CNN, etc. has gotten 8 months in a youth detention centre and 1 year probation. Prosecuters think this will be a message to 'hackers' that do this kind of thing. I say the message should be to the scriptkiddies who obviously don't know how to cover their tracks, to at least learn to do so before they download malicious software." The other message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy.
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Mafiaboy Gets His Wrist Slapped More

Mafiaboy Gets His Wrist Slapped

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  • Wrist? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mwillems ( 266506 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:04PM (#2292886) Homepage
    Seems to me 8 months in juvenile detention is not 'getting his wrist slapped'. At 17, 8 months is an eternity. This will n ot be nice for him.

    Michael

    • Re:Wrist? (Score:4, Funny)

      by Foggy Tristan ( 220356 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:11PM (#2292937)
      "So what you are in for?"

      "Denial of Service on EBay. You?"

      "I put my sister in the hospital because she was hogging the computer."

      "Eeep."

    • Re:Wrist? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by dirtboy ( 139266 )
      I agree. Having know various people that have spent time in "juvie hall" and assuming mafiaboy fits the stereotype of a kid way into computers it quite likely will be the hardest 8 months he ever has to endure, the amount of time is guaranteed, what can and will happen to him while he is there is undeterminable. It could range from constant boredom to constant fear and terror.

      I think of foremost importance is the fact that the rehabilitation opportunites there are more focused on drug abuse, and obtaining a high school diploma, he's personal growth and certainly his computer knowledge will be stunted.

      It's certainly not a slap on the wrist, but I also strongly believe that the punishment, sentence, whatever, will do little in the way to address his mischieviousness.

      • Re:Wrist? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by xonker ( 29382 )
        From all the accounts I've heard of "juvie," it's not much better than prison, with all the attendant horrors of prison. I think this is a little too harsh for computer crimes committed by a minor.

        My fear would be that he either will not survive the experience or that he would leave a far worse person than when he enters...

    • Re:Wrist? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dragons_flight ( 515217 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:18PM (#2293524) Homepage
      I agree, it's not really a slap on the wrist. Seems to me like it strikes a pretty good balance between the need to recognize that this is a serious crime and deter him and others from doing it again, and the need to recognize that he's still young and should be allowed to show that he can mature and become a productive member of society.

      In many prison systems there is an emphasis on simply locking people away and doing little or nothing beyond that to rehabilitate them. This kid, like a lot of other people commiting sophisticated crime, probably has a good intelligence and real potential to contribute to society.

      I truly believe we need a system of criminal justice that effectively deals with the mental illness and lack of education that contributes to crime. We should foster productive life skills and punishments that are appropriate to rehabilitation. Non-violent white collar crime certainly isn't deserving of long sentences on first offense. When people have shown that they won't or can't change and continue to offend then it's reasonable for society to consider locking them up for long times merely to keep them out of society.

      Compassion and forgiveness have a place in justice, whenever promoting society's respect for life and liberty can be balanced against our need for security. Overly strict law will promote hate, mistrust, and fear among the innocent as well as the guilty.

      Those 8 months will be a life altering experience for this kid, as most certainly the arrest and trial already have been. This is a pretty reasonable solution.

  • hmmm (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Spagornasm ( 444846 )
    So, basically, the message is "Don't try to fight us - you'll be slapped?"

    That's not a good message at all. It should either be: Don't even try cause you can't break through (which is crap) or Don't even try because we'll use our lawyers to grind you into a financial and legal pulp.

    Neither of these are very helpful to the government, or to industry...

    What a wishy-washy end to a case that could have set some important precedents and lessons...

  • I dunno... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by boinger ( 4618 ) <boinger@@@fuck-you...org> on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:09PM (#2292921) Homepage
    8 months for a scrawny nerd in a juvenile detention center? He's going to get the shit kicked out of him regularly, I would surmise. That's a pretty hard sentence for running some other idiot's code.

    • Re:I dunno... (Score:3, Informative)

      by CaptJay ( 126575 )
      He's going to get the shit kicked out of him regularly, I would surmise. That's a pretty hard sentence for running some other idiot's code.


      No, he's not. Juvenile centers are nothing like jails. There are always educators with the kids, and bullies would not get away even with threatening to beat him up. They'd be brought back before a judge before they know it.


      Most juvenile centers also have kids from the "Youth Protection Department" (DPJ in French) that have been taken from their families for their OWN safety. Therefore, the centers know very well how to protect their "residents".
      p>

  • At least there is some punishment... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mfarah ( 231411 ) <{miguel} {at} {farah.cl}> on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:09PM (#2292924) Homepage
    Over here (Chile), a 15-year old script kiddie cracked a webhosting company (Meganet) [presumably abusing a very stupid security hole]. Guess what he got? A job... in the very same company as an apprentice.



    At least, this Mafiaboy has gotten a "bad boy!" message...

    • Re:At least there is some punishment... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by update() ( 217397 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:17PM (#2292990) Homepage
      Over here (Chile), a 15-year old script kiddie cracked a webhosting company (Meganet) [presumably abusing a very stupid security hole]. Guess what he got? A job... in the very same company as an apprentice.

      I don't know how common it is for that to happen but the belief is common among script kiddies that their antics are going to lead to high-paying jobs at the sites they attack. I recall a Slashdot article a while back about an article on some h4x0r website that was actually complaining that it wasn't working out that way for the author. Slashdot search is broken now but maybe one of the people who post those "We had this two years ago! Morons!" bits the moment a duplicate story is put up can confirm my memory.

      Incidentally, while 8 months in juvie isn't overkill, I've got to disagree with Rob that it's a slap on the wrist.

      • Yeah, it's kind of funky. One site I was doing some work for was using a well known chat server. Some kids would find out what the new exploit was whenever a new version came out, and take over admin within a few days. We finally started talking with him and he told us he just wanted to prove that he was good enough to be the chat admin for us!

    • You say that as if its a bad thing. I would think that a job in which a kid could learn and develop new skills is a far better form of 'rehabilitation' than 8 months of getting the crap kicked out of him.

      • You say that as if its a bad thing. I would think that a job in which a kid could learn and develop new skills is a far better form of 'rehabilitation' than 8 months of getting the crap kicked out of him.



        It IS a bad thing: the company treated him as a genius that deserved a good job (blah blah blah). All the people who know a bit about how things work know this is just show in order to save face, but the script kiddies are dumb enough to believe it, and now have a powerful signal saying "D00d, if u br3ak d law, u get reward3d w1th a j0b!!!", or some crap like that.

    • He's not the first person that's happened to. In the past, I hired one person primarily experienced as a 'hacker' -- and he was not only our best engineer, but within years was the CTO of a very well-funded startup (that lives yet).

  • 1.3 Billion.. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ..was the figure listed in the article. I swear, do they pull these numbers out of air? I can hardly see that ebay, yahoo and the like being offline for half a day is worth 1.3 billion.

    Especially seeing as they, as business entities, aren't capable of making that much money. And money that fails to move isn't 'lost in damages', it just doesn't move.
    • I know, they dont even bring in any profits in the first place.In fact, by being offline for half a day, I think Mafiaboy saved them millions if anything. The combined quarterly revenues of those companys doesnt even equal that figure.

  • How tough is Canadian juvenile detention? Does this mean he has to play hockey without a stick?

    • Re:Canadian Detention (Score:2, Informative)

      by WebBug ( 178944 )
      Depends on exactly where it is that he gets sent. The "detention" centre near where I live uses the "detainees" as labour to keep the 160 acre centre looking like a park. They maintain the gardens, fences, fields and forests in pristine park like conditions.

      They are given the full provincial standard education. No skipping, no slacking.
      I don't know if they learn anything or not. I guess that's up to them.

      It certainly isn't something that this young fellow is going to enjoy.

      The recidivism rate in Canada, last I checked, for these centres is less than 1/3.
    • Does this mean he has to play hockey without a stick?
      Consider this, hocky is the only game I know where you field 12 guys on a surface hard and slick enough to break bones and skulls, put sticks in their hands, knives on their feet and chase a 90mph pojectile, and where fighting is okay if it's one-on-one. If anything, a little hocky might give the boy some perspective of what it means to get his ass kicked.

      On a serious note, I agree with the call that the punishment should fit the crime. I'm wondering if there is a way of handing the pup an old machine with and made to write a solution using assembly language.

  • Easy? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by geek ( 5680 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:13PM (#2292955)
    I don't know what you think is easy about it. I spent time in a youth detention center and now as an adult every body I know that spends time in jail for DUI or otherwise tells me they would rather be in an adult prison than a youth detention center. In jail you get a TV, a matress some luxuries. In a youth center you get a thin matress resting on a concrete slab and that's it. No bathroom in your cell, no TV nothing.

    Also consider he will be surrounded by criminals who will likely kick the shit out of him regularly for being a "geek".

    There is nothing easy about this. Adults have rights, youths do not as a matter of law. It's a kangaroo court system. They sentenced him to 8 months but that could eaily turn into 8 years as he is likely to make fuck ups in there and will have to defend himself against the others which will make his time harder and longer.

    I feel sorry for him. Most people who go to a youth detention center often times become criminals as adults.

    I don;t know the details, he may very well deserve this, but I honestly from a first hand perspective don't think anyone deserves what the youth detention centers dish out.

    • Easy? ... yea let's put taco in one for 8 months (Score:5, Insightful)

      by disc-chord ( 232893 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:29PM (#2293078)
      I spent 4 months in the San Jose Juvi. I was not a total geek, but I sure as hell was not a gang-banger... which is exactly what everyone else was in there. I only got into one fight, but fights are the least of your worries. Try to imagine what it's like to be surrounded by murderers and rapists all day long. I will assume that he is relatively bright, and will have to deal with being in a confined space with people who are not only ignorant and poorly educated, but also very intolerant of educated-types.

      4 months was way too long for me, 8 months would be an eternity. Granted... he will likely not have to deal with the sort of racism I faced (I was 1 of 4 white people, our of 600) in San Jose, but he is definetly not getting off easy.
    • Most people who go to a youth detention center often times become criminals as adults.

      I find this assertion a little backward. I would be more inclined to believe that people who did things as kids that land them in juvie will continue to do those things as adults, and land in jail.
    • Maybe these juvinile detention centers need better adult supervision so inmates can't be ablused by other inmates. That's a real and serious issue. But his illegal actions resulted in possibly a billion dollars in damages. The billion dollar figure is probably exaggerated, but he commited a serious crime, and should be facing a serious penalty. I don't think losing 8 months of his freedom is that serious of a penalty considering the crime he committed.

    • Re:Easy? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by CaptJay ( 126575 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:28PM (#2293591) Homepage
      I don't know where you are from, but it definitely does not sound like Quebec (where Mafiaboy happens to live).

      Juvenile centers here are geared towards rehabilitating the kids. The kids are followed by psychologists and educators, forced to take standard provincial education (skip class and you end up before a judge who will most likely make your sentence more severe).

      My mother has been working in a juvenile center for over 25 years, with kids who murdered their parents, stole from almost everyone in their town, drug addicts, and worse. Some of the kids are irrecuperable, but most you CAN get to change and to function in society. Not once as she been physically attacked by kids there.

  • Canadian Law (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BluedemonX ( 198949 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:13PM (#2292956)
    Keep in mind Canadian Law is goverened by the Young Offenders Act.

    Maximum Sentence for ANYTHING (mass murder, etc) is three years.

    By the standards of that act, he was punished very hard.

    • Re:Canadian Law (Score:2, Informative)

      by Pez69 ( 244209 )
      And of course once he turns 18 he losses all preivous criminal records. So a big company could hire him and have no way of know what he did as a kid.

    • Re:Canadian Law (Score:2, Insightful)

      by krikke ( 248069 )
      This sounds very reasonable to me. Who, as a teenager, hasn't done something incredibly stupid? I am all for children getting second chances. They haven't lived long enough to realize that their actions have consequences. These children should be closely monitored when released, though. They may have a tendancy to do stupid things.
    • What's the canadian law's take on monetary damages? Because I don't really think sending him to prison does a lot of good...but how about 'restitution'? You could pick any amount, since the attacks literally caused millions in damage. (Even my own extremely peripheral involvement could have been billed for thousands of dollars worth of consulting time) Maybe his paying a $100k tab or such would help people realize this is serious.

      • Re:Canadian Law (Score:2, Informative)

        by Kallahar ( 227430 )
        Financial penalties would not help anything. I, for example, am having a hard enough time just trying to make rent. Add an unreasonable amount to what I already owe and I may be forced to sell drugs just to cover the costs. That's definately not what anyone wants to see happen.

        Financial penalties usually make things worse, not better.

        Travis
      • What's the canadian law's take on monetary damages?
        Hardly. Québec civil law makes it illegal to seize any assets from anyone who has less than $6000 worth of assets, as well as basic home furniture (beds, tables, chairs, cutlery, applicances - but not TV, though) and tools of the trades.

        So, anybody thinking "monetary damages" is SOL.

        Which is good, because it protects ordinary people from sharks.

  • I think Mafiaboy's age has to be taken into consideration. We don't want to go wrecking people's lives here just because of some childish mistake.

    Mafiaboy obviously did this just for the attention. What he really needs is a little love & compassion, hopefully at home.

    If he was American (or perhaps Russian *cough*Dmitry*cough*) would you think this sentance was lame?

    Also I'd like to point out that Taco's postscript editorials are getting more and more annoying.
    • Mafiaboy obviously did this just for the attention. What he really needs is a little love & compassion, hopefully at home.
      This french article [cyberpresse.ca] states that the judge blasted the parents:
      Ses parents, présents dans la salle, ont été écorchés dans le jugement, le juge déclarant qu'ils ne sont pas en mesure d'assurer un encadrement adéquat pour le jeune homme. Ils sont séparés et Mafiaboy vivait chez son père au moment de ses méfaits. Bien qu'ils le savaient recherché par les polices du Canada et des États-Unis, les parents n'ont pas dénoncé l'adolescent, ni sévi sérieusement contre lui, a souligné le juge Ouellet.

      His parents, present in the courtroom, were [skinned alive] by the judgment, the judge declared that they are not able to give a suitable living environment for the young man. They are separated and Mafiaboy was at his father's when he did his mischief. Even though they knew he was wanted by canadian and american police, the parents did not turn in the teenager, nor punish him seriously, said judge Ouellet (pronounced "well-let").

  • From the crowd that normally screams at how 'harsh' penalties for hackeres are, this shocks me.

    A 17 year old kid.. under our legal system, he's a *kid*, a jeuvenile. Why should he do hard prison time for this? How will that benefit society? 8 months in juvie is *plenty*, especially considering he didn't really hurt anyone. Sorry.. he may have, on paper, cost some *huge* *foreign* companies some cash..... but that's about it.

  • Ridiculously easy? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by p3d0 ( 42270 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:15PM (#2292972)
    What kind of sentence do you want? Will you not be satisfied until his life is ruined?

    8 months is a long time. Think of all you have done in the last 8 months, since January, and imagine being in a youth detention center instead.
  • Isn't this the same /. that said Mafiaboy was a scapegoat?

  • Sentence seems fair in Canada (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Malc ( 1751 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:18PM (#2293001)
    "Mafiaboy, [...] has gotten 8 months in a youth detention centre and 1 year probation. [...] The [other] message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy. "

    That seems fair to me, and in line with society's expectations. Was the crime so heinous that he needed to be tried as an adult? No. Was the crime so heinous that he needed a sentance as long as those handed down to rapists and murders? No. Please don't forgot, other countries aren't as keen as Americans seem to be when it comes to locking people up, and for how long they get locked away, e.g. murder in Britain might get you 20 years, but in the US life or even execution.

  • hopefully he doesnt... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by L-Wave ( 515413 )
    hopefully he doest get the "been there, done that" attitude, I mean sure 8 months, will this "scare him straight" or will it not scare him, and cause him to do worse acts because he's "been there before"?

  • bah! cane the wanker (Score:2, Insightful)

    by quackPOT ( 100330 )
    I think a public caning and the revoking of his access to computers for a year or two would be better. If more people got an ass beating for being a punk, I think it would have a better effect than locking them up with other criminals.
  • I am not going to say what Mafia Boy did was right. You can justify it however you wish or let the courts decide (which they have).

    I will say this: Let the punishment fit the crime.

    I did a small stint in a "work farm/community service" facility for something stupid I did a long time ago. Heh, you'd be surprised how much a loss of freedom of only a month will affect you.

    I gained no insight besides one: even the most intelligent person is capable of doing the stupidest things.
    It's ok to do something stupid, just learn from your mistakes.

    Moose.

  • Bah! (Score:2, Troll)

    by sys$manager ( 25156 )
    Bah! I say to all of you! If you don't want to go to jail, DON'T BREAK THE LAW!

    It only makes sense to me!

    • Your aditude disturbs me (Score:3, Insightful)

      by stuce ( 81089 )

      While I will refrain from commenting on this individual in this case, it must be said that we in a free society need to always be on our guard as to what the laws are, why they are, and how they are being carried out.

      Why can a man in Virginia be throw in jail for going down on his wife in the privacy of their bedroom?

      Why does crack cocaine have harder sentences than powder?

      Why do blacks make up 15% of the US drug using population but 36% of the drug arrests?

      Why can consenting adults be jailed for what they do behind closed doors? [ prostitution, assisted suicide, drug use, sodomy ]

      Why, when people break the law, do we enroll them institutions that teach them how to harder criminals and then let them back into society?

      Why do we say we are rehabilitating criminals when we only punish them?

      The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance.

      Sheep like you are the reason things are the way they are.

    • Bah! I say to all of you! If you don't want to go to jail, DON'T BREAK THE LAW!
      Which law? The DMCA???

  • 8 months is severe by Canadian Law (Score:3, Informative)

    by myamid ( 179896 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:30PM (#2293087)
    I just wanted to point out that By canadian Juvenile law, the 8 month sentence plus probation the kid got is quite severe! And let's not forget that Yahoo, eBay and company never even bothered to try and prove during the trial that they suffered any losses at all!! I guess they figured out they wouldn't get any of their money back... What's a judge to do? Give 5 years when nobody's really complaining??

  • nice double standard.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by _Mustang ( 96904 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:30PM (#2293092)
    Looking back to stories and posts about these types of offenders leads me to believe there is a serious double standard around here.

    Think back and you'll remember everyone complaining that Kevin Mitnick received too harsh a sentence for his hacking/cracking actitivies. I even recall some posters mentioning that a rape/murder gets less time than Kevin's sentence. That was for an adult - maybe even the adult who is considered the *definitive* hacker's hacker, cracker's cracker and such; but that sentence was perceived as totally out of line.
    Now we get this teen ager who is pretty much the poster child definition for the term "script kiddie" and a sentence of 8-9 months in juvie is too light a sentence..

    Seems to me that the sentence should fit the crime. What he did is really the equivalent of spray painting the front of the local wal-mart - vandalism for sure but hardly a capital crime; he got a reasonable sentence.

    • Re:nice double standard.. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by alexjohns ( 53323 ) <almuric.gmail@com> on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:13PM (#2293468) Journal
      A lot of people were upset about the fact that Kevin Mitnick sat in jail for 4 years without a trial. Due process and all that. If he'd gotten a speedy trial and all that, I think fewere people would have been upset. It showed the rest of us how easy it is for 'The Man' to do whatever he wants to us. That's the lesson most of us learned from Mitnick.

      It's also a different country. Contrary to popular belief, Canada is not the 51st state.

    • Think back and you'll remember everyone complaining that Kevin Mitnick received too harsh a sentence for his hacking/cracking actitivies.

      Big difference here... Mitnick was held for four years before seeing a trial. Let's hear it for the sixth amendment ("speedy trial", and all that jazz).

      Further, Mitnick's "economic damages" are farcical at best. Mafiaboy, script kiddie that he was, chose to take down Yahoo, Ebay, Amazon, and Dell. Mitnick peeked at AT&T's source, and stole some calling cards. Mafiaboy knocked the primary sales channel for several companies out. Mitnick was (ostensibly) driven by the challenge. Mafiaboy was out to screw companies over.

      What he did is really the equivalent of spray painting the front of the local wal-mart

      Only if the act of spray painting the local one closed down every Wal-Mart across the country for a few days.

  • H4X0RZ (Score:5, Funny)

    by Kengineer ( 246142 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:30PM (#2293095)
    h3110 l4mUrz,

    1 4m a 15 yr 0ld h4X0r/cr4ckX0r, 4nd i th3nk th4t t3h s3nt1nce r1lly SUXX0RZ!!! i 4m more s/\/\a4tur then 4ll j00 0lde phart PUNKX0r S1S-4DMINZ c0mbinde!#% JOO PH33R MY 5K33LZ, i w1ll p1ngn00k joo and fr4ggX0r jur ARSE in c0uNtArStRiEk!!! i am 1337.. 4LL J00R B4S3 R B3L0NGZ 2 US!!!!!

    ---===[[[{{{N33T-0 31337-0}}}]]]===--- [xRc]

    PHR33 MAPHIAB0Y!!!!!

    /s

    /save

    /exit

    /qut

    /quit

    h0w do i sa3v? th3si sint pien!!$ GRR!! greppin tarball

    • You know, with the all the trauma going around the US now, I read this and just had to laugh. Thanks....

    • H4X0RZ translation. (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I've seen enough people who are unable to read this type of 'l337 sp34k' before so I'll translate:

      Hello Lamers,

      I am a 15 year old hacker/cracker, and I think that the sentence really sucks. I am more smarter than all you old fart punk sys admins combined. You fear my skills, I will ping nuke you and frag your ass in Counterstrike. I am elite. All your base are belong to us.

      ---===[[[{{ Neato Elite-O }}}]]]===--- [xRc]

      Fear Maphiaboy!!!!!!

      /s

      /save

      /exit

      /qut

      /quit

      How do I save? This isn't pine! Grr!! grepping tarball.

      • Not translated enough (Score:5, Funny)

        by Tony Shepps ( 333 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @04:04PM (#2294356)
        That's not enough of a translation yet. Here is the final version:

        Greetings to those for whom I hold some degree of low regard.

        I am a young computing/networking enthusiast who is disappointed with the punishment assigned to a fellow enthusiast. I have come into knowledge that is not universal; and because I have few other avenues through which I can gather respect, I intend to use this knowledge to randomly punish others. To accomplish this, I intend to display my knowledge through both gaming and non-gaming-oriented activities. I am also assigning myself a title to indicate my status. My long-term goals include assuming ownership of all facilities where personnel and equipment are centrally gathered.

        I shall now attempt to determine the correct usage of the program with which I am composing this message.

  • What a contradiction. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MongooseCN ( 139203 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:37PM (#2293147) Homepage
    What does the outside world think of slashdot when one day everyone is yelling that Dmitry Sklyarov should be set free even though he violated the DMCA and created and sold illegal software. Then the next day a 17 year old script kiddy who DOS attacked a few sites and got a punishment of 8 months in a detention center, and everyone is angry that his punishment isn't enough? How could the common person get any understanding what slashdot's ideology is?
    • How could the common person get any understanding what slashdot's ideology is?

      That's a good observation. I don't think the common person will ever get what special interest groups like slashdot are all about. That's why it will continue to be News for Nerds. This is a safe gathering place for nerds, where you don't need to dumb stuff down to interface or share with the "common" world. It's all good for us.
    • What contradiction exactly?

      As far as /. can be said to have an ideology I would say that it is obvious:

      The DMCA is wrong.

      What Mafiaboy did was wrong.

      What do the two things have to do with each other?

    • while you raise a good point, you must understand that there is no slashdot ideology. Ever heard the phrase, hearding cats? It applies here very well.
    • CT is still a young man, and likely doesn't have a unifying ideology himself. That carries through to this site.

    • Re:What a contradiction. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Dr. Awktagon ( 233360 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:04PM (#2293350) Homepage
      Well besides the fact that many posters don't consider the 8 months detention too little, we also don't think of those two "crimes" the same way. To me, the only similarity is that computers are involved.

      Sklyarov was the victim of a misguided and unjust law. He didn't actually do anything to any company, the way MafiaBoy did.

      A DoS attack is an actual disruption of business, I have no problem with fair justice for that. Writing a general-purpose program to decode files is different. We don't throw people in jail for writing "ping" which may be used as a DoS tool, and we shouldn't throw them in jail for writing a program that decodes computer files in the privacy of your own home!

    • Because We're Not Sheep (Score:5, Insightful)

      by waldoj ( 8229 ) <<waldo> <at> <jaquith.org>> on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:27PM (#2293587) Homepage Journal
      As much as a surprise as this might be, there is no unifying Slashdot ideology. Being as how we're all capable of free thought, some people believe things that others don't.

      I can't believe that I've had to state something so blindingly obvious.

      -Waldo
    • How could the common person get any understanding what slashdot's ideology is?

      Yes! Everyone, please. Pick a pigeonhole into which every last user on slashdot can be conveniently grouped, and then ensure that your posts never deviate from that philosophy.

      Dealing with a collection of people who have different values is too confusing.

  • Globe and Mail Article (Score:5, Informative)

    by tb3 ( 313150 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:41PM (#2293169) Homepage
    Here's another article from the Globe And Mail [globetechnology.com] that has a little more detail, and describes the terms of his parole.

  • Lets look at the figures (Score:5, Funny)

    by Jeff Knox ( 1093 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:42PM (#2293171) Homepage
    Lets look at the figures of damage supposedly caused by Mafiaboy and see if he deserves a rewards, not a prison sentance. The estimated figure of damage was 1.3Billion combined from eBay, Yahoo, and Amazon. Lets first look at revenue and losses of these companies. They dont make any profit, which is what will be my point. This information has been culled from finance.yahoo.com (Interesting how yhoo's profile on finance.yahoo.com is more flavorly and flattering then any other stocks).

    Yahoo (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/y/yhoo.html )

    "For the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues decreased 28% to $362.4 million.
    "Net loss totaled $60 million vs. an income of $120.9 million."

    Ok. So in the first six months of this year they only had revenue of 362.4 million, and had a Net Loss of 60 million. Devide 60 million by (365/2/2, or 91.25, a figure for a half a day of revenue) and you get $657,534 dollars of Losses they did not have because their site was down. So in this case Yahoo loss 3.97 million in revenues, which would of resulted in $657,534 of losses. So Mafiaboy saved Yahoo $657,534 in all reality.

    eBay (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/e/ebay.html )

    "For the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues rose 82% to $335 million."
    "Net income totaled $45.7 million, up from $9.2 million."

    Ok. So eBay is making a profit. So revenue losses in ebays case is very similar to yahoo at $3.67 million. And actually profit losses are $500,822. So their is real loss associated with his attack. $500,822 dollars in eBay's case (if at all, because in reality, the auctions still went on, and eBay still collected all their fees).

    Amazon.com (per http://biz.yahoo.com/p/a/amzn.html )

    "For the the six months ended 6/30/01, revenues increased 19% to $1.37 billion"
    "Net loss before acct. change fell 37% to $392 million."

    Amazon has a significantly higher revenue then eBay and Yahoo as we see. So revenue loss for that half day would be 15million. Net loss Amazon.com was saved from that 15 million, $4.3million.

    Summary

    Adding up the total half day losses of revenue for all the companies equals $22.64 million in loss revenue. Of that $4.96 million would of been losses, and only $500,822 thousand would be profit. So the net amount of money it could be considered that Mafiaboy saved these three companies is 4.45million dollars. If you add up the half year revenues of these companies it was only around 2 billion. And thats for HALF A YEAR. Amazon.com accounting for most of that. No way Mafiaboy caused 1.3 billion in damage, not matter how you look at it. I know their is more then revenue, such as employees over time and whatnot. But still looking at the figures 23 million of damage at best (because no one can say these companies actually ended up loosing sales, and in eBays case, it probably did not have much of a effect if any), or looking at it from another viewpoint, you could say Mafiaboy saved these companies over 4 million dollars.

    PS. Dont take this as an approval of Mafiaboys actions. What he did was wrong, no matter what way you look at it.

  • Hypocrisy (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Lagos ( 67371 )
    It's pretty sad to see this kind of hypocrisy on Slashdot. The dichotomy between the attitude towards "Script Kiddies" and the attitude towards those considered truely elite is disgusting: Hackers are met with sympathy and understanding; script kiddies almsot face a lynch-happy slashdot posse.

    He's a minor. I think 8 months is sufficent.
    • can you please explain why being a minor means he should be held fully responsible for his actions?

      are you suggesting that a 17 year old isn't capable of coprehending the consequences of his actions? That's a big steaming pile. They most certainly are, and they should be held responsible like any other human being.

      • are you suggesting that a 17 year old isn't capable of coprehending the consequences of his actions?

        Yep.

        I think you'd have to be 17 years old to really think that 17-year-olds know anything about the world.

    • Re:Hypocrisy (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Lyka ( 162251 )
      Not to defend the hypocrisy involved, but I think the significant factor here may be that this was a DOS attack. Many consider DOS's the most contemptible form of vandalism -- something like throwing a big pile of rubble in the middle of a busy freeway for the fun of it, as opposed to spraypainting your name on a wall.

  • Easy Sentance (Score:2, Insightful)

    by antistuff ( 233076 )
    One of my friends served a year in a so called "detention center". I say so called becouse it just a prision for kids. He got into fights everyday and go the shit kicked out of him. 8 months might not sound like a lot, but dont think thats its easy becouse you have never been there.
  • I'm not 100% sure, but I think that because of his age, he gets his record wiped clean later. (You basically have to murder many people to make a permanent mark on your record when you're 17 in Canada).

    Now that sucks! Anything like that should be a permanent part of your record. That's part of the problem with idiot teens like this. They know darn well that basically anything they do before 18 doesn't get punished or have any permanent consequences. (Course most are too stupid to stop when they turn 18).

    Canada needs to ditch the Young Offenders Act and get something with some teeth. 'course I've been saying this since I was 15, but those bleeding heart idiots WHO LET TERRORISTS IN BECAUSE THEY WHINE THAT THEY'RE REFUGEES, aren't ever going to do anything.

    • LET TERRORISTS IN BECAUSE THEY WHINE THAT THEY'RE REFUGEES

      Whoa there cowboy! A little evidence please? And what would you suggest we do with the refugees who face persecution in their homelands (women from Afghanistan, for instance)? Turn them around and send them home? I realize you're upset about what happened on Tuesday, but please keep the hatred away from off-topic subjects.
  • Seems fair, maybe even excessive. He didn't break into the systems, he didn't steal confidential data, he didn't risk life and physical property, he just denied some traffic to websites.

    Imagine someone dropping a tree or something across a major highway, and stopping traffic.. would we add up the lost business from these people not reaching their destinations, and then punish the perpetrator based on that?

    The punishment should fit the crime. It's easy for a small action to have great consequence on the internet, but that doesn't necessarily mean we should inflate punishments proportionately.
    • Seems fair, maybe even excessive.

      I cocncur. What was his crime? Being a dick. Now as much as I hate dicks, 8 months does seem liek a long time for this. I think they should have just let the CEO's of all the companies he harassed take turns kicking him in the nuts or punching him in the gut. That seems a tad more apropos.

  • A wrist slap is all he should receive! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ryanvm ( 247662 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @01:58PM (#2293283)
    Get some frickin' perspective.

    Exactly what losses can a company claim when they are victim of a DOS attack? Damaged hardware? No. Theft of goods? No. The only "loss" one of these companies had is potential income for that short period of time. And even that is completely subjective. Realistically, if you were going to buy a book from Amazon and you couldn't get to their web site, chances are you'd just try again in a few hours. The same goes for all the other web sites - especially the portals. Would you change your home page if the site was down for a couple hours?

    Also, consider that this was a 16 year old boy. For Christ's sake, do you remember how stupid you were when you were 16? How much time do you think a kid should serve for a foolish mistake that didn't really harm anyone?

    • Realistically, if you were going to buy a book from Amazon and you couldn't get to their web site, chances are you'd just try again in a few hours.
      If I want to buy a book now and I can't get to Amazon, I'll go to a different bookseller. Borders, B&N, Fatbrain, whatever. No way I'd wait 'til Amazon came back up.

      I think it would be easy to prove loss of income on Amazon's part. Take the period of time they were DOS'd, plot numbers/$ sold in that time period to same period in previous days/weeks/months. Easy as pie - or a pie chart (or some other kind of chart.) Statistically, it should be very straightforward.

      Trouble is, Mafiaboy has no money for them to recoup. Aside from that, you tend not to get money from a criminal trial, only a civil one. They can still sue him in civil court.

  • Light sentence? More like different approach (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CaptJay ( 126575 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:16PM (#2293493) Homepage
    The other message is that even if you get caught, your sentence will be ridiculously easy.

    Before judging on a sentence on a juvenile in the province of Quebec, you need a crash course on the approach that is prevalent here with kids, and works very well.

    • Kids are NOT sent to jail. Whatever they commited. Why? Because jail is not where you learn about life as an adult.
    • Juvenile centers are not vacation centers. My mother has been working in one for over 25 years, and the kids are severly watched, and most definitely not free to do what they want. They are locked in their rooms at night, and whenever they cause any kind of trouble. As long as they behave, they get to interact with other kids there, and they are forced to go to school.
    Most of Canada wants tougher laws towards the kids, but Quebec's system has the lowest rate of kids being sentenced that commit other crimes when they grow up. By any means, 8 months is not a light sentence, and the kid will have that time to think about what he did, and perhaps find something else he is good at, instead of thinking how he will make society pay for his incarceration when he gets out of jail.

  • The original sentence (Score:4, Funny)

    by cowboy junkie ( 35926 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:17PM (#2293507) Homepage
    Originally he was sentenced to correct Taco's grammar and spelling for a year, but it was deemed cruel & unusual punishment...

  • You're on crack. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by citricacid ( 521482 ) <citricacid@@@hotmail...com> on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:21PM (#2293544) Homepage
    Slap on the wrist? Exactly how do you call this a 'slap on the wrist'?

    Mafiaboy is a seventeen year old - a teenager, probably misplaced socially - who decided to see what he could do with his computer. What you deride as 'script kiddieism' is nothing more than curiosity travelling its logical path. The only reasons he didn't bury his nose in *nix programming like you probably did is because one, he's young, and two, it's boring.

    This isn't to say he's any sort of innocent. Obviously he has some anger issues or something to work out, and these should be dealt with. Eight months in juvey is going to be a dragging hell for him as it is, and probably won't resolve any of his social aberrancy. It's not just harsh, it's ineffective.

    What would you advise as an alternative to this 'slap on the wrist'? Throw him in prison and let him rot? I have to say, then, that you are one hard motherfucker. His crimes were economic, nonviolent, and those of youth: more annoyances than anything, and ones that show us that . It would immoral to steal his life to pay for what it can't.

    Ideally, he should simply be seperated from technology and forced to work excessively in the community. Make him go out and meet people. Make him help people. This isn't an evil, violent person. Locking him in with his fellow misanthropes is going to help no one.

  • eight months is easy? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by option8 ( 16509 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @02:30PM (#2293612) Homepage
    certainly it's at a YDC and not at a federal, pound-you-in-the-ass penitentiary, but still, eight months.

    that's a full year of school you'd have to miss, and take again with kids 2 years younger than you. and a year after _that_ you still wouldn't be able to leave the state or be out after curfew.

    imagine you're back in high school, and remember the pain of persecution and social awkwardness of being a geek. add to that the weekly visits to your parole officer, and think that's not at least a little trying for a kid who, essentially, downloaded some software and ran it.

    personally, i think it's light in comparison to the damage and loss of commerce in dollar amounts floating around from the "Attack" - and i hope his parole terms include not being able to use the Internet unsupervised - but considering the age of the of the offender with no priors (i presume) this isn't "ridiculously easy" or a wristslap. a wristslap would be a fine (which his parents have to pay) and maybe parole.

    being confined to a cell, your movements and actions constantly under scrutiny for eight months, essentially without any liberties, is an appropriate sentence for someone who intentionally committed a severe act of vandalism. the travesty would be giving the same sentence, or less, to people who maim or kill while drunk behind the wheel of a car, which happens every day in the courts.
    • that's a full year of school you'd have to miss, and take again with kids 2 years younger than you. and a year after _that_ you still wouldn't be able to leave the state or be out after curfew.


      Actually, in Quebec, that's a full year of school you'll actually be forced by a judge to attend every single of your classes. There is no calling in faking to be sick, the educators at the center know better. Instead of being withdrawn from society, you're being supervised and forced to face it, which gives pretty good results.

  • time served (Score:3)

    by passion ( 84900 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @03:24PM (#2294054)

    on the other hand, hasn't he been in detention for about 1.5 years?

  • A different justice system (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Lac ( 135355 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @03:29PM (#2294096)

    What you have to understand is this: you cannot compare this sentencing to the kind of sentencing he could have received had he been tried in the US or even in Ontario. Mafiaboy was not judged on US soil, by the US judicial system and under US laws.

    If you compare sentencing in the US with sentencing in other countries of the industrialized occident, the US in no way comes out as an average nation. Comparatively speaking, the US judicial system is extremely harsh. Prison sentences are much more common and much, much longer. Another example of this harshness is the death penalty, which is much more widely used in (parts of) the US than in the rest of the industrialized occident.

    Mafiaboy was judged and sentenced in Quebec, Canada. The Quebec judicial system operates on Canadian federal laws, but with largely distinct underlying values and interpretations. Whereas what is usually called "English Canada" generally wants to move towards a harsher, US-style judicial system, Quebec gererally wants to go towards prevention, leniency, and re-integration. This is especially true for young offenders. Young offenders in Quebec are not sentenced to five-year prison terms, even for violent crimes. Their anonymity is secured and they are sent to youth centers.

    Interestingly, it seems that the efficiency argument is on the side of lenient Quebec in this case. Quebec has a very good track record at maintaining low crime and violence rates amoungst youngsters. Prevention and re-integration obviously fails in many cases (as we all know), but apparently works "often enough" or "well enough" to give Quebec very good results.

    (My personal opinion? All other things being equal, I prefer shorter sentences. I will favor any solution which just works, but luckily, it seems that the one naturally prefer does precisely work. Yet if you must know, I am definitely for a "dangerous offender" clause which keeps total, dangerous lunatics off the streets for good.)

    So whoever was expecting a 15-year prison sentence (or anything vaguely similar) is not very well-informed. That is of course understandable: Quebec and Canada are not very well known outside or... Quebec and Canada. Some would even say respectively. But the amount of surprise apparent here just goes to show how much many US citizens believe "their way" to be "the standard way."

    And please remember: this is a DDOS attack; not a mass rape, not a murder, not a bloody beating. And if you stop thinking about magical, crime-banishing 25-year prison sentences for just a second, you might realize that 8 months in a youth detention actually is no small deal for a 17-year-old. I rather enjoyed beeing free during my teenage years.

  • Hardly a slap on the wrist (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Ryan Amos ( 16972 ) on Thursday September 13, 2001 @07:50PM (#2295334)
    America is so caught up in this "Punish them so they realize how dumb it was" phase. What they don't really realize is what putting someone away for 10 years (especially at the age mafiaboy is) can do to a person. Release a 25 year old who has been in jail for the past ten years, and they have no shot at a normal life. While some people say "Good, what he deserves," I honestly doubt if he has any brains he'll try something like this again.

    Sure, the kid got a rise out of slowing the internet for a few days, but we all did stupid stuff when we were 15. Hell, some of my friends went out and threw rocks at cars off an overpass on the freeway. Sure, we realize how utterly dangerous this was now, but it seemed like something fun and rebellious in 8th grade. It's hardly a reason to take the rest of someone's life away. This kid is going to have a hard enough time getting a decent job or even into college with this on his record.

    The point of prison is to pusnish, but I doubt any of you know how hard even eight months in a controlled environment like juvenile detention is. This is pretty harsh, I have a friend who were caught for posession of a rather large quantity of marijuana and only got 3 months probation because he was 16 and federal drug laws didn't apply (had he been 2 years older, the min. sentence is 25 years, which is absurd for having some ganja) The moral of this post? We as a country are so hell-bent on the punishment of criminals (I'm mainly talking about the non-violent ones) that we fail to see the punishment does more harm to society than the crime itself. I doubt many of you can fathom what jail is like. Even a year in jail is not something you forget easily.

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