Computer Engineering Degree Most Valuable

Anonymous Squonk writes "CNN reports on the National Association of Colleges and Employers quarterly salary survey. Computer Engineering degree holders once again command the highest starting salaries at an average of $53,117, but Chemical Engineering is gaining rapidly, and Computer Science graduate's salaries are up 8.9% over the year before. Most of the other geek disciplines rank high on the list as well." While starting salaries for some degrees are up, the overall situation is not very good - indeed, your salary may be decreasing.

It got bad, but it's getting better

[31415926535897]

When I started college over 4 years ago, the average salary of a grad (from my school, for my degree) was over $60,000/year.

When I graduated last year, it dropped below $40,000, and it was extremely difficult to find a job. I have a friend with the same computer related degree with a 3.92/4.0 gpa who still hasn't found a job yet. And yes, I know that gpa doesn't always equate to ability/productivity, but this guy is really good.

I'm glad to see that things are back on the upswing for technology, even if this is just a start.

College DOES affect starting salary!

[Mukaikubo]

This comes as a bit of a revelation to me. I sat and compared these figures to to my school (Georgia Tech's) published figures on average offer granted to graduates in each field, and Tech comes out consistently about 4-5 thousand higher than these figures.

If you're an out of state student.. like me.. this gets eaten up by extra loans quickly, but if you're fortunate enough to be in-state this can probably be a real help.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[leerpm]

Yes, I believe computer engineering is much more closely related to electric engineering. You are dealing with mostly hardware. They normally cover software too, but probably not beyond Assembly and C.

Computer science often tends to take a more abstract view of the hardware. You deal more with the details of computing/programming like algorithms and data structures.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[Will Fisher]

Most universities in the UK only offer one of these, and the courses are almost identical in content. The main difference being if you end up with a BSc or a BEng, and to an employer this difference matters a lot less than the class of degree obtained.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[Tower]

Computer engineering is often an electrical engineering base with focus on computer architecture and design, with more programming than a EE degree would give you. Computer science is primarily math and programming based, though it certainly varies between schools and individuals - you can usually tailor it to a more theoretical or practical curriculum as you prefer, though you should be getting a heavy dose of both.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[N3WBI3]

A good CS program will focus much more on the actual science and less on the application. A good engineering program will focus much more on the process and application than the science.

Like Chem and ChemE, a computer scientist is hired to solve problems and an Engineer is to find real world applications using those solution..

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[mj2k]

I don't know about CompE, but in nuclear the department claims that the average salary is just above $55k. I've personally known some guys with gpa's just above 2.5 that got jobs paying close to $60k with only a B.S. (some of the guys with navy nuke experience get even more). I think in all branches of engineering you get paid well if you can get a job. At this time the market seems to be saturated with CompE/CS degrees - I know a guy that's in the EE/CompE track at Texas A&M who has close to a 4.0 that's worried about even getting accepted to grad school.

Another view from the AIP

[apirkle]

Here's a similar chart [aip.org] from the American Institute of Physics (Fall 2003). They give a range of typical salaries for each degree type, which is an important fact - ChemE students earned 50-55k, while students with a Physics BS pulled in a much larger range, from about 32-52k.

Interesting to note that secondary school teachers seem to have the least opportunity salary-wise (as far as that chart shows); not only is their salary low, but they're locked in to the narrowest range, from about 27-32k.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[3waygeek]

It depends on the school, but engineering programs usually have a hardware component that Comp Sci programs lack; the best programs will provide a balanced menu of hardware & software classes.

Back when I studied Computer Engineering at Iowa State in the mid 80s, the program was mostly the same as EE, but with the analog design classes replaced with Comp Sci.

Note also that the software component of many Computer Engineering programs tends to be of a more practical, hands-on nature, whereas many Comp Sci programs concentrate more on the theoretical aspects of programming.

Re:I work in Human Resources

[ekidder]

Never heard of wuarchive.wustl.edu [wustl.edu]? Such a sad world we live in. I used to download insane amounts of stuff from there.

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[devilsadvoc8]

Actually economic crises start when countries not companies get into tariff wars. Companies don't inact or enforce tariffs, countries do. History shows us that protectionism of domestic industries gives those industries a short term prop but damns them in the long term.

Good luck to anyone who thinks China will decrease tariffs on US goods. If you think that will happen I have a bridge to sell ya

Comp Eng

[geekboxjockey]

I recently transferred from a Computer Engineering program into Computer Science for a couple of reasons. Computer Engineering seems to be much more oriented around getting people ready for cubicle work on team projects, alot of emphasis goes into group work and labs. However the subject matter covered in my second year computer engineering courses was quite questionable in terms of how much computer education you get with the degree. I would say, at least at my school, the engineering programs are sold as highly structured, rigorous and competitive programs. The biggest problem I had with computer engineering was the subject coverage, we were in 90% of the electrical engineering courses, including electromagnetics. You work hard for the degree taking harder *base* knowledge courses but get less involved in specialized areas. Computer science, at least where I go to school (Queen's University, in ontario), seems to be a much more involving program that deals with alot of in-depth material that actually covers the wider spectrum of the computer world.

To sum it up, *in my opinion*, Computer Science covers the theory to application process and is closely tied to the real world of Computing, whereas Computer Engineering gives you a broad view of the possibilities while crunching through alot of busy work to "build character". When I added up the pros and cons of transferring I was almost in tears of joy to learn that playing with the linux kernel, tinkering with OpenGL were courses, and not distractions as such activities were in computer eng. Then again, I am a person who benifits exponentially from applying knowledge and not just memorizing and reading till the cows come home.

Re:Starting salary? feh.

[Equuleus42]

I'd rather know about the money I'll be making five to ten years into the job.

Try the Princeton Review's Career Research and Planning [princetonreview.com] website -- they list information about whether job conditions (including salaries) improve or worsen for your career field at the 5 year and 10 year points.

Re:Damn, I shoulda partied down with the CE slacke

[Darken_Everseek]

So 35% of them get in? And you're complaining that you have to bust ass? Wow.

The Engineering program at the U of Alberta has a common first year, with usually around 750 students. about 30% of the fail out of engineering altogether, and only the top 15 get into the coveted Engineering Physics program. Another 30 get into Chem E: Computer Process Control, from there, the rest of the programs fill up. Never more than 120 students per program. If you wanted something other than Civ E, Mec E, or EE, busting ass didn't even begin to describe it.

Re:Another view from the AIP

[duffbeer703]

What the chart doesn't show is that teaching is a union job where salaries are based on service.

A teacher's base salary is $30k, but you get a $2-5k differential when you get your masters degree, plus you get guaranteed annual "step" raises until retirement.

My sister started as a teacher five years ago making $29k. With her Master's (paid for by the school) and tenure she now makes around $48k and will retire at 50 with a salary of at least $80k.

Then she gets a 55% pension, guaranteed by the state constitution until she dies.

Hope others have better luck than myself...

[skedastik]

Being a recent CS graduate from a large State university, and currently working in data entry I wish all of you better luck than I have had. The competition, at least here is insane. I had 18 interviews last year and was passed up on them all. Worked at an italian restaraunt for a few months, now am doing data entry for about half what I spent on my college tuition. Though, I have a few friends that have become very successful with their degrees. The key to their advancement, they all worked networking jobs throughout college, I didn't. Thus the experience is lacking on my resume. I wish all those seeking CS or engineering degrees the best of luck, and get as much experience as you can. For those that do find jobs are doing very well for themselves.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[Mmmrky]

I'm a CompE at Purdue.

We take the same 200 level (sophomore) classes as EEs except for an additional programming class. Aside from a few signals and probability classes, the rest is pretty different. You don't have to focus on hardware, although that is an option. You'll learn assembly in a microcontroller class (best class I've ever taken). You are required to take ASIC design and Computer Architecture in terms of hardware, but that's all done in software. Seniors take a class in either compilers or operating systems.

You can pick your electives as you want. I've taken a few additional programming classes because I think it's good to know and much more valuable than a class I'm just going to forget in a semester.

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[Padrino121]

We are hiring right now (software developers, and systems engineers) and I know a lot of other companies we work with who are hiring. The problem is that a lot of the graduates we interivew may have a degree with a decent GPA but when you talk to them face to face a lot don't have any connection at all between theory in class and actual practice. For us a degree took a back seat to practical experience.

I've hired 10 people in the last 2 months and I don't take more then a glance at a degree at this point.

I was hired right after I droped out of school three years ago by someone who had the same problem with new employees and I've been moving up ever since.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[CuriHP]

This is completely wrong.

As most of the other posts correctly pointed out Computer Engineering is a EE/CS hybrid. The emphasis is on system design. More or less and EE degree with the fields and higher level analog stuff replaced by computer architecture, assembly programming, control systems, and some higher level programming.

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[the_2nd_coming]

that would be bill clinton.

Right..

[Anonymous Coward]

And for someone who claims to be making over 100,000 a year, I find it odd that you can't buy your software but instead resort to warez [kuruption.net] (first picture right hand side).

Tsk tsk tsk...

Yeah right

[bluGill]

I took a job for slightly less than average, because I knew the company, and it was a fun job and all. Better yet, they were established and had been around for along time. Well 5 years and a new CEO latter the company decides the project that was critical to the future of the company is worthless and gets rid of our entire division. The company itself is still around and making money. The product...

Don't fall for the 10 years down the road line, they won't pay you more. Truth is you get two chances to get more wages, when you start, and when you threaten to leave. It is dangerious to use the second one, they may call your bluff, and even if they don't they are likely to look for your replacement because of it. So you start out a little more, with the promise that you will get rasies... Well guess what, the guy who didn't fall for that line and started at 10,000 more than you also gets rasies. And current salery isn't taken into account until you reach the top of your pay scale, at which time they consider promoting you. If you two do = work, you both get a 4% raise, but he is getting 4% of a larger number! Then when he hits the top of the current position scale (sooner than you, remember the position scale is also going up every year!) he gets promoted even though you both are doing essentially the same work.

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[cluckshot]

I would suggest you check out the US IRS website. You have to go to: "Tax Stats" "Statistics by Topic" "Individual Tax Statistics" "Collections" "Treasury Department Gross Tax Collections: Amount Collected by Quarter and Fiscal Year, 1987-2003. " You just might get a shock!

The reality must be noted in the Payroll Taxes which were not affected by the tax cut. Note that they should be rising about 3.5% a year to account for population changes. Also note that the cost of the programs covered by this tax is going to rise >10%/annum for the next 15 years! Bluntly the collections are Flat, the average US Worker is getting about 3% less this year than last year and we are in trouble DEEP!

But then I don't lie for the Administration. If you really want to get the point, not that the just released data in this report ends in June 2003. They have not released the data for later obviously for Political REASONS

The simple fact for those who don't understand is that we are slicing a shrinking pie thinner!

For Graduates this is a forecast of trouble! As to paying to get a college degree, that is getting seriously questionable. If one considers the lost income to get it and the cost of the study and books etc, one finds that most college degrees NEVER PAY OFF ANYMORE. A simple rule of thumb is that in order to pay off a Degree, the increased income must be double in annual salary the cost. That might seem not quite right but remember taxes and compounding of money come into play. It is pretty much of a finance rule.

This is actually the real serious issue that as Americans desperately push education their government is undermining the results and shortening the pay off period. About 5 years ago we passed the profitability line and now we are going on "belief" and not on fact.

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes more than a market crash to start a depression (see the recent crash), it was a combination of factors that caused and SUSTAINED the depression. It was the depth and length of the depression that made it so bad, and that is why something can happen after the start and still be counted as a "cause". ONE of which was the trade wars.

Defense cannot be outsourced.

[dswartz]

A year ago I found a software engineering job at a small defense contractor in the northeast. What enabled me to get the job was leg work. While most of my friends complained about the job market, I sent out resumes and tapped every resource I had. What stopped them from getting jobs was their perception of the market. I know too many people who gave up on the job search without sending out more than a few resumes. Some went to graduate school or settled on low paying temp jobs. Provided one is flexible about the location and does his homework ,the jobs are out there. I say work at a good small defense contractor. The work is stimulating, well funded, and cannot be outsourced.

Re:Computer Engineering?

[whorfin]

Think of it as a degree in Computer Science, with a minor in Digital EE, and with the majority of your humanities electives replaced with science or engineering electives. This is how it was, at least, where I took my degree.

Re:Computer Engineering vs. Computer Science

[Ateryx]

Like Chem and ChemE, a computer scientist is hired to solve problems and an Engineer is to find real world applications using those solution.

Why do most people die in airplane crashes (other than the initial impact)?

It's actually the fire, burning and release of toxins from all of the plastic seats/overhead bins/walls/etc--think about the inside of an commercial airplane--90% of what is inside the cabin is plastic. So the airplane company decides to create a new plastic that is non-toxic. Brilliant--the chemists create a non-toxic plastic, which hardly burns in the first place gives off a minimal amount of toxins.

Why isn't the plastic used in airplanes now?
Because chemical engineers cannot create a cost-effective and efficient line of machines to mass produce the plasic. The chemical engineer takes what the chemist has invented and creates the entire process. In order to build a process, chemical engineers need to grasp not only chemistry, but physics, biology, and plenty of math. This is why many refer to a chemical engineer as the "universal engineer" because chem. eng. are really a combination of many engineering degrees.

Re:It got bad, but it's getting better

[(trb001)]

BS. Standards of living for the particular area you're living in should determine how much you make. I went to school in Blacksburg [vt.edu], I now live in NoVa. Want to know what the difference in SOL is [msn.com]? My $50k starting equated to $38k down there. It's all relative.

Not to mention, you should take a job you enjoy with work you're interested in and an employer you respect. I would gladly (and did) drop a couple $k off my salary to find a job that I could be happy with as opposed to hating or enduring going to work each day.

--trb

Re:Computer Engineering?

[madcow_ucsb]

Or the opposite. Mine was practically a major in EE (emphasis in digital circuits, VLSI, and HDLs) with a minor in CS. Really the major had enough flexibility that you could go either way.

That's part of what was so cool about it. We had way more choices than the other engineers. If I decided I didn't like hardware, while I'd still need the core digital circuits, etc., I could have taken, say, compilers, AI, etc. instead of VLSI and system design stuff.

That said, I emphasized in hardware and am now a software engineer. Go figure. But I do firmware, so it ain't so bad. And the hw background is a major help.

Re:Starting salary? feh.

[carn1fex]

Well alot of huge engineering places will offer you up these massive starting salaries to entice fresh outs. However its often basically a ruse and you have no opportunity for advancment and your job security is questionable. I graduated with all my friends 2 years ago with a comp-eng/ee degree. They all started making 55k right off the bat at the big defense companies, woohoo. I started out at 45k in a much different place. (I went through ALOT of soul searching trying to decide what would be the better option). Now im making 55k and guess what, so are they. I have my next raise in promotion in site already and they are realizing now that their job sucks. When youre in your interview, put the guys on the coals. What is the promotion potential? How long did it take you to get promoted mr interviewer? Don't settle for a one sentence answer like "you'll be rewarded down the road" because thats BS posturing. Get numbers. Get dates. Get specific accomplishments. The place that can give you those things is a good place to work, otherwise youre basically going to las vegas.

Re:Good luck to new graduates!

[theycallmeB]

While I don't know about the grain dispute, or the total number of times disputes have gone to court, Canada has not won everytime. The most recent ruling on the softwood lumber dispute was mostly in favor of the US. The court determined that Provincal governments were selling timber on public lands to lumber companies at below market value and that this constituted an illegal subsidy. The court did continue to disagree with the amount the tariff was set at (and I see to remember 33% being the highest, but that was a couple months ago).

Also, I think that US-CAN trade disputes are settled under NAFTA provisions, which are more restrictive than the WTO treaties with regard to tariff levels. China is currently a WTO member and is supposed to be phasing in tariff reductions by the 2005/2006 timeframe. Chinese imports to the US are currently charged a very low tariff rate due to the granting of 'Most Favored Nation' trading status by Congress. The imbalance is not so much that China unilaterally increased its rates, but rather that the US unilaterally reduced its rates.

Re:It got bad, but it's getting better

[eples]

Maybe that's because CS majors know how to do more than just "program".

In fact, starting out after college I was surprised by the sheer number of folks who thought they could design and implement enterprise systems when their field of expertise was not software. And those projects all failed. ALL.