Northface University - Computer Science in Half the Time? 666
prostoalex writes "Associated Press runs a nationwide story on Northface University. The school, founded by a pair of venture capitalists and former technology chief found a niche with its highly intensive curriculum and corporate software development specialization. For example, a BSCS degree can be completed in a little over 2 years, and it comes with IBM's WebSphere and Microsoft's MCSD certification. Northface is also promoting its corporate partnerships, which allow current students to feel more secure about future employment. Grady Booch from IBM is quoted to be 'jazzed up' about the program, although there are many who oppose such approaches to college education."
Technical school? (Score:5, Insightful)
Taken in that light, 2-year technical schools are nothing new. Any university could get you through in 2 years if you took nothing outside your major.
Interesting, but Not Good (Score:5, Insightful)
Nitpicking Symantics (Score:5, Insightful)
I've said this before, and will again. A collection of certificates is not the same as a computer science degree.
Learning to program or to operate a specific set of programs if valuable, don't get me wrong there. But that is not the same thing as understanding the workings of a computer (which I consider Computer Science).
Learning a set of skills is very job-applicable, and very practical. But it should not be called computer science.
this is just a damn shame (Score:5, Insightful)
these kids are going to come out of school with a CS degree and very little of the knowledge that a COMPUTER SCIENTIST should have.
Now Im not saying that there isnt a place for a 2 year degree that is focused on programming for corprate america. corprate america needs more programmers, especialy ones that have been custom made for the type of work that corps need, but to call them CS majors? I have a hard time beliving that they will realy learn much of the science side of CS in 2 years, while also training in 2 certifications.
Perhaps Im wrong and this cariculum will teach excelent data structure usage, and algorithim analysis and AI and compiler design and low level architecture. But at this point i kind of doubt it.
Is a BSCS just BS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless changed in the last few year's, the 'Big 6' liked anything but CS majors. EDS (I know bad example) even went so far as to prefer MUSIC majors. Their argument was that anyone can be taught to code - the 'free thinkers' in the BA degrees were where their employees resided.
Add to that the out-of-country outsourcing (where specific programming disciplines are taught), and a BSCS does not appear to be a good career path, 2 OR 4 years.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:3, Insightful)
What they cut (Score:4, Insightful)
Nothing wrong with that, but nobody should be under the impression that this is as good as a traditional degree with a full curriculum. Unfortunately, the students who graduate from such a program will think they are well rounded, and well educated. That's because they will lack the thinking tools needed to realize that they don't have a full education.
IT Degree (Score:2, Insightful)
In theory you could teach a full computer science degree without even touching a computer. Computer Science is the theory behind computation, IT is the practical application of the work.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:3, Insightful)
Not a "University" (Score:4, Insightful)
I do not approach such an approach. I oppose such institution being called "Universities". If you're getting two certs, AND a CS degree, where's the Humanities, History, PE, and other pieces of a well-rounded, universal education?
OT: Some people do not like general education, and that's fine. Go to a two-year (like this one), or another vocational training program. Unfortunately, administrators, wanting to attract these people are "modernizing" university education, and cheapening it at the same time.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally enjoyed my non-major classes every bit as much (in a lot of cases, more) as my CS classes. Hell, the CS classes were largely boring, I already knew a lot of that stuff. The physics, biology, history, etc classes were where I really learned stuff.
Sure, I don't use biology in my job. I do have an actual life though, and friends who sometimes want to talk about things other than computers (believe it or don't on
If all you want is get a piece of paper so you can get someone to pay you to warm a seat, knock yourself out.
it's a good idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally i'm sick of university, i was sick of it after the first year and I wish it was over. My attendance rate is near zero percent (literally), and i still manage As? Seems rather ridiculous and a waste of my money, considering everything i've learned about programming is at my current and previous development positions.
More than just programming (Score:3, Insightful)
a certification teaches you how to answer questions and follow a set of instructions. a real education teaches you how to think and solve problems.
i'd rather hire one CS student that went to a 4-year, second tier school, than a thousand 2-year certified programming monkeys.
This is a great idea (Score:3, Insightful)
People don't go to college to learn things. They go to college to get a piece of paper that qualifies them for certain jobs.
This is a program that lets you walk out of there with 2 useful certifications and a degree under your belt. It's a "cut the crap" kind of education.
These people aren't out there to bilk you out of your money, or to brainwash you. They're there to provide a service to a niche market. And you're it.
Yawn. (Score:5, Insightful)
Course Descriptions [northface.edu]
So
Nothing new here, just another technical institute trying to sell their courses as something they aren't... I have no idea if it is a good program or not, but it isn't a CS degree.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
Learning how to program is NOT the same as teaching you how to THINK!
Anyone can learn how to program in any language. I'd rather hire someone that has had a liberal arts degree. I can always teach them Java, ABAP, C++, or whatever. At least with a liberal arts degree, they've learned somehting about thinking and planning and collabaration. They may have even taken some business or finance classes, where they can at least understand that debits are supposed to always equal credits.
This is NOT Computer Science (Score:5, Insightful)
These people are not going to be taught a wide spread of stuff like in Computer Science that goes from lots of maths and theoretical stuff through to real world stuff through to hardware and all that.
You can but hope that this course will create people that are more than unthinking code monkeys or button clickers.
Half the degree (Score:2, Insightful)
Wow (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to get through your undergrad program really quick, take the AP tests, don't go to some fly-by-night college....
Re:Interesting, but Not Good (Score:3, Insightful)
But thats just IMO.
Theory much better...but not ideal (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember, eventually, there will be another IT crash. Just studying CS gives you little head start on another career. If you think school is hard, changing careers 10 years down the line is even harder.
Re:This is a great idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Getting a degree shows an employer certain things, amongst which are:
1) You lasted university, didn't give up, didn't flake out
2) You are clever enough to do a full degree
3) What university you went to
these are useful. The degree itself hardly matters. What matters is the university you got it from.
These degrees are short 2 year monkey degrees. They are useful if you are in your thirties, want to change career, have a degree under your belt in something else, and you want to do an intensive retraining course. You already can show that you have the ability to work hard enough to get a degree.
What this course shows is that Programming is not a specialist thing anymore, it is a job for code monkeys, nothing special. It won't create Software Engineers though. Software Engineers (real CS people) will design stuff, and offload the boring stuff to the Code Monkeys (these trained people). Not much difference from an Architect or Engineer offloading the creation to the Builders.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
Our College/University system is getting watered down as more and more kids just want to get in/out and get a job...
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
As for degrees as job qualifications, this is seriously beginning to irk me. On one hand, companies supposedly want the best and brightest employee possible. On the other hand, they shirk the guy who's got the experience, the knowledge, and the proven ability but no degree, for some degreed idiot who doesn't know the first thing about software development.
Of course, these are the same companies that think that more warm bodies == faster development. In their never-ending pursuit for more warm bodies, they've outsourced to more warm bodies in India so that they can get even more warm bodies for the same price! Next they'll cut costs by going for more cold bodies!
Maybe Google will finally teach the business world something about proper engineering. Then again, maybe not.
What's so weird about it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Students attend classes and work on projects from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m., with one hour for lunch, five days a week. Most assignments are performed in groups as part of lab and project work.
This seems possible. In fact, it seems exactly like what most universities offer - less the out-of-faculty electives.
At my university, a full degree takes 8 semesters, or approximately 4300 hours of coursework (estimating 3 hours in class, and 6 hours out, per week). This can be done in as little as 32 months if one really tries hard. (read: doesn't fail anything, and takes 5 courses a semester with not summers off)
This place is advertising 3980 course hours, a 9-5 school environment, and 47 weeks of class a year.
Really, you are getting the same ammount of education. In fact, you are likely getting more (the 3980 number does not take into account homework time, my 4300 hour estimate does). What you are losing out on is diversity. Which many students don't want.
True, diversity is a valuable asset, and a valuable experience. I enjoyed taking english and writing classes, and found them very useful as well. But if you really want diversity, go to this school, get your first degree in just over two years, and then enroll in a second degree program somewhere else.
Math. You need math. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:it's a good idea (Score:3, Insightful)
The first two years should focus on math, the Sciences, English, etc. Very necessary coursework.
>My attendance rate is near zero percent (literally), and i still manage As?
Sounds like your college has very low standards.
who cares what companies think? (Score:4, Insightful)
The difference between a trade school and a university is that the university aims to not only equip you with the knowledge to perform in a job, but to make you a better all around person as well through exposure to other studies, people and ideas.
In no other situation in life will you ever get a chance to experience such a fascinating breadth of humanity in such a period of time. Its a sad shame some people see this as a BAD thing.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:3, Insightful)
Work for 40 hours a week
Sleep for 60 hours a week
Life for 68 hours a week
Seems to me that 'half the fluff removed that will have no bearing on real-world employment' has full applicability to living. Work is one of the least important parts of my life, strictly on an hourly basis, and if I could get away with even less I'd be even happier.
Training or Education? (Score:3, Insightful)
On the flipside, maybe college can be completed in 2 years if you take away all the fun, alcohol, and women
Accreditation? (Score:1, Insightful)
Not the same thing (Score:2, Insightful)
I would think that all the people with CS degrees here would know that by now.
Anyone remember Ars Digita University? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of the best coders I've ever encountered were under 20. It doesn't really take that long for someone with the right sort of intelligence to develop the skills. So the idea of a two-year crash course isn't unreasonable.
The real problem is, that sort of intelligence isn't all that rare. Which is why a coding career isn't as lucrative as it once was, I guess. These crash courses beguile their audiences into thinking they can be fabulously wealthy just as coders. You need a great deal more to convert computing skill into something other than a moderately paid high stress job.
Know computing, but also know something else, is my advice for most people. What else? Something that you can apply the computing to, basically. There's a lot of choices. Pick one.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:3, Insightful)
-kaplanfx
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, actually, in theory it's because we are expected to choose our own goverment and therefore need to be able to think on our own.
Well, it's your life. But as someone employed as a sysadmin with a Liberal Arts degree, I would humbly suggest that you might think about reversing that order. Get an education first, then worry about getting job skills. An education will let you figure out what you actually want out of life; you can then decide what if any employment will help you achieve those goals.
And broad education is *not* about "people skills" particularly. It's about breadth of knowledge, ability to tie together ideas from different fields, and ability to learn diverse subjects quickly. Or, as they used to say at my alma mater, it's about becoming a free and happy human being.
Personally I think the university in TFA sounds stupid. They may call that degree a BSCS, but it's just not a Bachelor's degree. A Bachelor's degree is not an industry certification. It's not an industry certification. It's not a sign of fitness to work at a particular job. It's a sign that you dedicated 4 years of your life to beer^H^H^H^H learning in an at least nominally interdisciplinary environment.
Northface is a trade school. There's nothing wrong with trade schools. But it shouldn't call itself a university or its certification a "bachelor's degree". The article even says it's not intended for students out of high school but rather to retrain current workers -- people who, hopefully, already have an education.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:4, Insightful)
You seem to have confused going to college and getting educated, with a vocational training program and certification. Sounds like what you want is a two-year degree.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:5, Insightful)
Even more so, most people change careers regardless of the market. A lot of people are in CS because they enjoy it, but a lot are there for money. Even the ones that enjoy it might not forever. When they see a chance to do something they've always dreamed of, they are going to want to know about more than just programming. Someone that hasn't had economics, or statistics can be crippled in many real world situations (and often not even know it. If they knew it, they could learn.)
Extra exposure also gives you insight to do your programming. Sure, you can write code to spec without knowing what it's doing, but you can make better designs if you understand the problems you're working on. The design team for an accounting package should involve accountants, and programmers who know something about accounting.
I also question whether they drop the less used CS stuff, too. I got my mechanical engineering degree, and, as they say, I wan't immediately useful as a designer. They could have made the curriculum more practical, and I would have been more useful straight out of school, but it would have sacrificed theory and fringe situations. Part of what sets me apart from the non-engineer people around work is knowing the theory, so I understand what's happening and why, and can design better for it. The fringe situations are those rare occurrances that we almost never see, but when they happen they're very hard to figure out, or they could kill someone. I have to keep those in the back of my head, just in case they ever come up.
This school sounds like a glorified trade school. It's very useful, and I'm glad somebody is teaching people how to program, but I don't know if they should call it a BS degree if it isn't well rounded in worldly matters. Someone with a degree should be educated, not just skilled.
trade school (Score:5, Insightful)
Computer Science is Applied Math (Score:2, Insightful)
It's impossible just to get through the MATH! (Score:3, Insightful)
This is impossible, along with CS courses, in two years.
The problem is they should call the program a degree in "Computer Technlogy" and degree holders should be "Computer Technicians."
I may trust them to crimp connectors on my Ethernet cables, but they're not going to be doing any heavy lifting!
Re:Everything will be half (Score:2, Insightful)
Although I partially agree with you I think that the main reason is not so much kids just want to get in/out and get a job but the fact that the age of the average college student has been going way up over the past decade.
Most adults going back to college really do want to complete college as fast as possible and they don't want a bunch of extra classwork that does not directly relate to their major. Hell, if you are a thirty year old high school dropout trying to raise two young kids and working as a minimum wage IT help desk support then a Bachelors degree in two years looks pretty good.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually by compartmentalizing yourself you end up as one of the consuming worker-bees. The far reaching exposure you get from a 4-year degree is designed not just to train you to work, but to become a leader and contribute not just in the workplace but also society. Things like political science and business may not directly apply to your job, but they do apply to your life.
Hate your job? If you understand entrepreneurship you have a leg up on starting your own business.
Tired of outsourcing? Understanding political science lets you know how you can change things
If you learn to be a leader, you are many times more valuable to your employer and society than just a worker.
true, it might make me less "employable" wrt "people skills" etc., but that's my problem. i don't think i'd like a job that depended heavily on that anyway, over the long run. just let me do my stuff and go home, without the water-cooler chit-chat and office politics.
Pretty much every job people and communications skills are important.
Most big projects require work with many people, making sure everybody is on the same page and not just doing their little thing in a vaccuum is important. Being able to clearly communicate what you are doing, and understanding what other people do, arguing constructively, discussing, and eventually making decisions on how to proceed is very important to prevent having to redo, rewrite, and troubleshoot problems.
Even in a 1-on-1 situation you should have good people skills to effectively create a requirements document from your customer. If you don't have people skills both sides tend to end up frustrated, and little issues might just slip by that end up being a big problem in the end.
It is not a computer science degree (Score:5, Insightful)
computers than astronomy is about telescopes
Anything that brags about java and
It is probably a programming course.
Re:this is just a damn shame (Score:3, Insightful)
Nonsense. A number of people have relayed accounts here today of the value they received from their college education.
For someone who is really into programming, by the time they get to College they know 1/2 the material or more that will be "taught" to them.
Evidently the many posts stressing that there is much more to computer science than programming have been wasted on you.
Gen-eds are a waste of time. And the forced non-computer science aspect of a degree is worthless. The college wants your money.
A well rounded eduction forces you to experience things you normally would not chose. Whether that actually includes anything you find interesting or useful depends mostly on you. But any time you exercise your brain, especially in ways you're not used to, it makes you smarter. So if you apply yourself rather than just doing the minimum to get by, you get more benefit.
And of course there is the reason that led me to take (and enjoy) liberal arts classes when I was young and dumb -- all the hot chicks were liberal arts majors.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:4, Insightful)
If the trend of tech is following the same trend in farming and manufacturing, it makes sense that (in order to breath life into tech as a career possibility for future generations) it needs to be made cheaper and accomplishable in a shorter time.
For example, it took farming about 80 years to go from being very profitable to needing subsidy. And it took a goodly amount of time to get a large farming operation going (sometimes generations).
Manufacturing took 40 years to complete that same cycle of going from extremely profitable to "commodity."
Now it is looking like CompSci/Tech is coming in around 20 years (or so); with outsourcing looming as the death-nell to high salaries, who's going to want to go spend 80K on education at university when they'll only be able to make a job that pays $30K? They'll never be able to pay off the investment in their education in a reasonable time.
*If* the trend continues, then I worry about how rapidly the "next thing" is going to come up and shut down... and the thing after that... and after that.
We'll be headed into a society based around *constant* training/retraining; the concept of "career" will have completely vanished.
Hmmm... I really did follow that point down the rabbit hole. 8)
College Experience Worth Less? Sort of... (Score:3, Insightful)
And yes, there are scattered cases of people who eschewed college and did very well. I'd wager there are even more people who didn't attend college and wound up in fast food. A degree gets your foot in the door.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:1, Insightful)
If there is an "itch" in your brain, scratch it!
College does not teach you how to *think*. It merely hones the process and provides more grist for the mill. If you are a dull tool going into college, you're just gonna end up like a lawn mower blade after a season, i.e., even duller and pitted.
I have an underlying interest in what makes Art Deco, FLW and Mackintosh's art styles, Tiffany lamps, etc., but did I take any art classes to figure this one out? Nope. One look at a picture of Fallingwater, and it's like, "I wish I had that house!". Or just about any other FLW house.
Or seeing FLW's or Mackintosh's stained glass or furniture designs. Sure, going to an art class might infuse me with the book knowledge that says why it is right, but that does not seem to satisfy the itch to want to create new things based on it.
Or the surreal qualities of the Impressionists.
But other people love French Louis XIV-related architecture, art and interior design. To me, it's about as ugly as white wigs or Windows XP.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:2, Insightful)
- Copying is cheating
Yes and no. Taking credit for someone else's work is cheating (most of the time), usually unethical, and often illegal. Copying with attribution is useful, and often allowed in school.
The school needs to find out what you know, and what you can do, though. You can't prove you know how to program a mathmatical algorithm by calling a math library, or copying OS code. Those are useful skills, but they want to know that you can do it yourself when needed, hence, you have to do your own work.
- If you can't take a standardized test for it, then it isn't really knowledge
I had very few of what I would call a "standardized" test in college. They were all made up by the professor for his class. They tested the things we were supposed to learn. It's not that hard to do in an engineering curriculum, since there are actual right answers to most of the questions. If you don't like tests at all, how do you know whether someone learned what they were taught?
As for knowledge that can't be tested for, the hope is that it happens as a byproduct. You're going to have to learn about studying, managing time, getting work done, and whatnot if you are going to pass the test.
It seems to me that school isn't that far off from the real world in many cases. My employer gives me an assignment, and a schedule. I have to provide the completed assignment by the due date. The difference is that instead of evaluating it and giving it back, they build the thing (and it had better work without killing anyone.)
- Everyone starts with an A, and works their way backwards the less they conform
(sigh, typical Slashdot anti-establishment comment)
Grade inflation is a problem. A "C" isn't good enough anymore, even though it's supposed to be average. Most grad schools will drop you if you don't have a "B" average, which means they should lose most students by the end of the program. It's the modern "good enough isn't!" crap again. How do you break the cycle? If you grade properly again, your students can't get a job because of low GPA.
As for conformity, I never noticed a problem. My classes mostly had right and wrong answers, so if you got the stress calculations right, you got the points. The subjective classes might have more of a problem, but the professors I knew were reasonable and like to read something different.
I think you'd like grad school more. In undergraduate curriculums, they have to teach everything in small amounts to a lot of students, so the quality isn't as good. In grad school they can provide more personal attention, and the students get more in-depth, detailed, semi-real-world work. They work far more independantly, and not based on a standard curriculum. You always reference other people's work, and build on it in novel ways, as part of your thesis.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm the only engineer, and one of few people with degrees, at the place I work. Most of our people are smart and talented, and learned by doing. They are very good, and I often ask their advice on designs. However, there are some things that they will never be able to do that I can, which is why I am here. The sad part is that most of the engineer we've had don't credit them with any intelligence, because they don't have the education. The opposite is true as well, the production guys don't think the engineers know what we're doing, because we can't actually build it ourselves.
Few people will learn calculus on their own, fewer differential equations. One of our guys was trying to do control systems calculations, and it was totally hopeless because he didn't have 4 years of math that he needed.
Book learning is great for things that are hard to learn or figure out in practice. Math is a great tool that is easier to learn from a book than from practice. Practice is required to do anything well, though, and can be all that is needed for things that are simpler in concept, but require finesse to do well. Used together, they work best.
The primary goal of college is the book learning, leaving it up to the workplace to provide the practice. Some schools put more emphasis on practical skill, though. As for "learning to learn", well, that's something that just takes practice. Hopefully, you have to work hard enough at school to get that practice, but it's not always the case.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:2, Insightful)
As much as I hated those classes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:MIT and Stanford avoided CS major at beginning (Score:3, Insightful)
Does anyone else remember the TV adds for "Control Data Institute?" I rember seeing them watching afternoon TV as a kid in the 70s. (CDI adds ran between the "Meet Chuck" mechanic school ads and the DeVry ads.) CDI was on offshoot of Control Data to teach programmers in a trade school environment.
The plumber/electrician analogy is very apt. You wouldn't hire an electrical engineer to do the work of an electrician. An engineer may understand and specify an electrical system on paper, but it takes the equally important skill set of the electrican to get installed efficiently and properly. The problem is that many employers inappropriately focus on BSCS degrees for all IT jobs, probably because there are a lack of real quality "programming" curricula out there. (As a side note, while I'd probably agree some of the best IT people pick up the knowledge on their own without getting a technology degree, I would argue that there may not be enough of that type of people around...)
My alma matter, Purdue has addressed this situation with two programs. One is a Conventional BSCS program [purdue.edu] in the School of Science [purdue.edu], the other is a rigerous Computer Technology [purdue.edu] program in the School of Technology [purdue.edu].
--zawada
The Final Word on this Retardation (Score:2, Insightful)
The commercialization of education is a giant bowel movement on the Arts and Humanities educational system that has served our planet so well for so long.
Keep your fucking "job skills" movement out of my university.
"Now earn your Bachelor's in Food Service Online from the University of Phoenix in half the time!"
Well rounded education (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want to go to one of these trade schools and in two years hit the job market, go for it, but the guy who waits another two (or four or six, depending on degree) years is probably going to be able to better mold his career path to the needs of his life.
Programmer != Computer Scientist (Score:2, Insightful)
There's a difference.
From working with developers of all sorts as part of what I do, I can tell you that there's a clear difference between someone who simply learned to code from reading a book on EJB development and someone who took enough courses in networking protocols, systems design and compilers to know that using HTTP to send 4 bytes of data from point to point is a bad idea.
It takes more than simple practical knowhow to actually be thoroughly trained in a field. A two-year certification program is just that...
jfr
Re:who cares what companies think? (Score:4, Insightful)
They will all give you fascinating breadth of humanity experiences, but they won't give you the same fascinating breadth of humanity experiences. I went to college, got my degree in CS (BS/CS under the dept of Engineering) and it wasn't until I spent a month in Europe behind the Iron Curtain that I saw how rich the lives of the American 'poor' really are, it wasn't until I saw four generations of family living in the same 1 bedroom apartment (about 800 square feet) that I learned to appreciate my little crap garage apartment that I had all to myself. It wasn't until I saw that night's dinner walk into the butcher's area and get hacked up to pieces with a sharp knife
Re:Everything will be half (Score:3, Insightful)
They may have even taken some business or finance classes, where they can at least understand that debits are supposed to always equal credits.
But even our government doesn't understand that.
Re:Everything will be half (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm sure we could just teach kids only the stuff they needed to know:
How to push the little picture of the burger and coke.
How to click on "buy this now".
How to operate their car to drive to the local mall where they turn over income.
How to drive to the church where someone tells them how to think.
How to turn on the TV where someone tells them what to think.
I think we could fit the entire education into a year.