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Education Books Media United States Book Reviews

The Underground History of American Education 1346

Chris Acheson writes "John Taylor Gatto is a former New York City school teacher. During his 30-year career, he has taught at 5 different public schools, has had his teaching license suspended twice for insubordination, and was once covertly terminated while on medical leave. He has also won the New York City Teacher of the Year award three times and the New York State Teacher of the Year award once during the final year of his career. The whole time he has been an outspoken critic of the school system. Nine years after leaving his career, he published The Underground History of American Education (full text available here), in which he puts forth his insider's vision of what is wrong with American schooling. His verdict is not what you'd expect: the school system cannot be fixed, Gatto asserts, because it has been designed not to educate. Skeptical? So was I." Read on for the rest of Acheson's review.
The Underground History of American Education
author John Taylor Gatto
pages 700
publisher Oxford Village Press
rating 9
reviewer Chris Acheson
ISBN 0945700040
summary A damning look at the institution of modern compulsory schooling and the factors which brought it about.

The true purpose of schooling, according to Gatto, is to produce an easily manageable workforce to serve employers in a mass-production economy. Actual education is a secondary and even counterproductive result since educated people tend to be more difficult to control.

Over the course of the book, Gatto exposes many of the individuals, organizations, and crises (both real and manufactured) that helped to make our public school system what it is today. Such architects as Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford, and a handful of teaching and management experts sought to benefit directly from a dumbed-down citizenry. Others contributed in a naive attempt at Utopian social engineering, mostly unaware of the harm that they were doing. There was never any master plan, though. The author puts it best:

With conspiracy so close to the surface of the American imagination and American reality, I can only approach with trepidation the task of discouraging you in advance from thinking my book the chronicle of some vast diabolical conspiracy to seize all our children for the personal ends of a small, elite minority.

Don't get me wrong, American schooling has been replete with chicanery from its very beginnings: indeed, it isn't difficult to find various conspirators boasting in public about what they pulled off. But if you take that tack you'll miss the real horror of what I'm trying to describe, that what has happened to our schools was inherent in the original design for a planned economy and a planned society laid down so proudly at the end of the nineteenth century. I think what happened would have happened anyway-without the legions of venal, half-mad men and women who schemed so hard to make it as it is. If I'm correct, we're in a much worse position than we would be if we were merely victims of an evil genius or two.

Gatto maintains throughout the book that all individuals have an innate curiosity and desire to learn. Examples are given in the first chapter of prominent historical figures who prospered with little or no formal schooling. But I found the examples of desire for substantive education on the part of "the masses" to be most compelling:
When a Colorado coalminer testified before authorities in 1871 that eight hours underground was long enough for any man because "he has no time to improve his intellect if he works more," the coaldigger could hardly have realized his very deficiency was value added to the market equation.
The real function of the school system is not to empower people by giving them knowledge, but to crush this instinct toward self-improvement before it makes the workers too independent and troublesome. Another compelling example is the "Jewish Student Riots" described in chapter 9:
Thousands of mothers milled around schools in Yorkville, a German immigrant section, and in East Harlem, complaining angrily that their children had been put on "half-rations" of education. They meant that mental exercise had been removed from the center of things.

The book does have a few problems. Gatto is by his own admission somewhat casual about citing his sources. This is important because there are some assertions made that many will find dubious. For example:

Looking back, abundant data exist from states like Connecticut and Massachusetts to show that by 1840 the incidence of complex literacy in the United States was between 93 and 100 percent wherever such a thing mattered.
This would be a great fact to toss out when trying to convince someone that schooling is unnecessary. But where does this statistic come from? What does "wherever such a thing mattered" mean? Some readers may be willing to simply take Gatto's word for it and accept this assertion, but skeptics will be left unsatisfied. According to historical census data from 1840, the national average literacy rate for white adults was indeed approximately 93%, and the literacy rate for white adults living in Connecticut was 99.67%. Why not simply say that the statistic refers to white adults? The omission hurts the author's credibility in the eyes of a skeptical reader.

The other thing that I found disappointing is that Gatto doesn't discuss solutions to the schooling problem as thoroughly as I wanted. Throughout the book examples are shown of educational methods which have worked well. As I read, I mulled these over, and anticipated that the final chapter (titled "Breaking Out Of The Trap") would be a comprehensive look at these methods and ways to promote their implementation. But that final chapter is mostly a collection of anecdotes. Gatto does provide a short list of positive suggestions and a promise to cover solutions more fully in a future book.

The picture that Gatto paints for us of our school system and society is frightening, but I also found it comforting to see evidence that ignorance and apathy are not the natural state of humanity. I found hope in the fact that things were once different. Having a clearly defined problem that can be solved is preferable to having a vague suspicion that something is wrong, but no clear idea what it is.

The ideas presented in Gatto's Underground History have the potential to change our society and our individual lives for the better. Even when we are trapped within the system, knowing how it works and what it is really up to can help us retain our wit and our humanity. If you are a student, if you are a parent, if you know or care about anyone who is in school, or even if you are just concerned about corporate and government control versus individual freedom, you need to read this book.


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The Underground History of American Education

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  • Quick Intro (Score:5, Informative)

    by Euphonious Coward ( 189818 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:19PM (#10179638)
    A quick intro to the ideas explained at length in the book may be found at The Six Lesson Schoolteacher [cantrip.org], from an article by Gatto published in Whole Earth Review in 1991.
  • by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) * <akaimbatman AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:20PM (#10179645) Homepage Journal
    Please mod this nonsense down. The author did not claim that "religion" in schools was a problem, he claimed that the school IS A RELIGION!
  • On a similar topic: (Score:5, Informative)

    by Tar-Palantir ( 590548 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:20PM (#10179648)
    I haven't read Gatto's book (though I should). I do have a recommendation for a similar work though: James Loewen's "Lies My Teacher Told Me". It doesn't take on the whole education system (it's American history specific), but he does show at length that American history is deliberately taught in a way that discourages critical thought, heroizes the government, and suppresses historical dissent. Great read. Now I have to read the book actually reviewed...
  • by fbg111 ( 529550 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:28PM (#10179762)
    The true purpose of schooling, according to Gatto, is to produce an easily manageable workforce to serve employers in a mass-production economy. Actual education is a secondary and even counterproductive result since educated people tend to be more difficult to control.

    To anyone interested in this topic, I'd suggest also reading Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt's book, The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America [deliberate...ngdown.com] . It'll make you want to homeschool your kids.
  • Not available online (Score:4, Informative)

    by Quixote ( 154172 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:29PM (#10179784) Homepage Journal
    Full text available here

    No, the full text is not available (as far as I can tell). From this page [johntaylorgatto.com]:
    Each month we will post a new chapter on this Web site. If you are patient, in 18 months you will have read the book in its entirety.

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:31PM (#10179823)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • nerds (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:33PM (#10179846)
    I think that the "Why Nerds Are Unpopular [paulgraham.com]" essay by Paul Graham would also be appropriate here. Some people do try to learn and improve themselves, while others simply don't care or only want their piece of paper.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:33PM (#10179851)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:45PM (#10180015)
    Yeah, really.

    Or you can cough up a whopping US$6 to get a print copy. Hardly a cash cow.
  • Mirror (Score:2, Informative)

    by Chris Acheson ( 263308 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:46PM (#10180041) Homepage
    I set up a mirror here [rit.edu], from my "offline reading" copy. Please use the main site when it comes back up.
  • by santos_douglas ( 633335 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:51PM (#10180102) Journal
    Actually it is, just click on any of the chapters. The full text is available all the way through the epilogue. I'm guessing that message was put there some time ago while they were still gradually releasing chapters. Someone probably forgot to delete the comment.
  • by Solder Fumes ( 797270 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @02:54PM (#10180161)
    Homeschooling works. If the public schools were eliminated, along with the associated massive government expenditures, maybe taxpayers could actually survive on one income. You could still have private schools for certain situations, and teachers would become journeyman tutoring consultants to teach where needed.

    Don't tell me this would be worse than our current system. It's not possible to be worse. Maybe it would be a little tougher for people to not have government daycare, but then maybe they would realize that those last 12 years of childhood are the most amazing.
  • by CWCarlson ( 2884 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:01PM (#10180305)
    While the idea is vaguely outlined in both of those books, it is explored in greater detail in My Ishmael [amazon.com]. In it, Quinn goes on to explain that another significant goal of the educational system is to keep young people out of the workforce. If young adults started flooding the blue-collar job market (as they certainly would if compulsory education weren't the law), we'd have an even more severe unemployment problem than we do currently.

    It's nice to see that a person as public and respected as Gatto is starting to say these things.

  • by Short Circuit ( 52384 ) * <mikemol@gmail.com> on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:06PM (#10180376) Homepage Journal
    Uh, what school system are you thinking of? In my high school [k12.mi.us], we had a class called "Global Issues" that exposed students to many different perspectives on many different issues. Here's a list:
    • Terrorism (Both domestic and abroad.)
    • Religion (covered Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and Islam). We had to study about an inch stack of worksheets and information packets about half an inch thick on each one. Then give a presentation.)
    • Abortion. (I got fired up on this one...then I got in an email flamewar with a prominent person on the issue, got scared, and have stayed out the debate ever since.)
    • Foreign wars and genocides
    • Female circumcision (I got sick thinking about that one.)
    • WWII and the Holocaust. (We were shown much more disturbing photos than the ones you see on the History channel.)
    I think it really opened my eyes to what was going on around me, stuff that most people don't hear about and don't want to hear about. I took the class because I'd heard a lot of mixed messages from other students. Some thought it was horrible, others though it was boring, and others thought it was great.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:07PM (#10180401)

    If you bothered to look at the page, you would have seen that not only are all 18 chapters there, but the epilogue as well.
  • by meganthom ( 259885 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:11PM (#10180457)
    Perhaps the majority of Western Countries based their laws on the tenets of Christianity, but America is one notable exception. Our rules were based largely on Deistic principles and on general ethics and were specifically engineered not to value religion. Dubious? Read The Godless Constitution [amazon.com]. Or consider this: despite the fact that many Americans claim the US Constition was based on the Bible and that it was founded by Christians, so we are a Christian nation, the founders specifically chose not only to exclude Christianity from the Constitution (which was a cause of debate throughout the States), but to specifically prohibit religious tests as requirements for holding public office. One can be ethical and can have morals without religion.
  • by Chanc_Gorkon ( 94133 ) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <nokrog>> on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:12PM (#10180481)
    How do you explain that even though they get no tax subsidys, most private schools spend LESS per kid then the Public schools do?

    Check this out [cato.org]

    That article was talking about vouchers and the 3000 (only half of what it costs the public district which means the district KEEPS HALF!) voucher would almost PAY for MOST private schools. Sure, they are not the expensive primary equivalent of Yale, but most are better then 80 percent of the public schools.

    Oh, and when I was in school, besides the Iowa tests, there was no state required test. The minute one was added, actual teaching went out the window and everything that students are being taught were about the tests. The test should TEST your knowledge not have your knowledge be the test.
  • by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) * <akaimbatman AT gmail DOT com> on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:13PM (#10180494) Homepage Journal
    So you're saying that those who believe in Christianity (or perhaps Judaism, Muslim faith, Buddhism, etc.?) should be told to "get with the program" and have their freedom of religion stripped from them?

    Or should the state declare the official religion as atheism? "You must believe that there is no higher power, and that you are worthless and have no purpose other than a product of the Universe's machinations."

    1. That would be unconstitutional. It's in the first "right" granted to every American for a good reason. For those of you who have forgotten it, it goes something like this: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

    2. I submit that if you think religion is dying (especially Christianity), you aren't paying enough attention. Many of those around you are quite possibly of a faith, but choose to keep it to themselves instead of beating it over your head in an inappropriate forum.
  • by mtaco ( 520758 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:17PM (#10180553)
    Why No Child Left Behind is the most important law ever

    NCLB has been getting trashed a lot, and pretty unfairly, so lets talk about what NCLB is really about.

    It's about using phonics to teach reading.

    It seems that there are two camps in education: the phonics camp, which is pretty much how everyone in the world actually learned to read: Sounding out words.

    Then there is the whole language camp, which basically consists of putting books under kids pillows and hoping they learn how to read.

    You're probably assuming that I'm rabidly partisan in the phonics camp. Nope, I'm not.

    See, neither camp is 100% correct. Phonics is how you start learning to read, and its a necessary step. You can't learn to read without phonics. Enjoying reading is how you learn to read well. So designing a reading program will mean you'll have to start with phonics, and then build up from there.

    So what I'm rabidly partisan for is measuring what works, and doing that. That's what NCLB is really about. Schools must test their kids between 3rd and 8th grade and make sure that they're learning to read. If they aren't they have to try to do something about it. If they try and fail, then they have to provide alternatives to parents: busing them to better schools, or vouchers.

    Now my mother was a schoolteacher, and I saw her do some interesting things:

    1. Every couple of years in California, they would "dumb down" the textbooks again. So my mom would go to the district office and get the "obsolete" text books and that's what she would use in her classroom.

    2. My mom would test her kids every year at the beginning and end of the year, and if they were behind, she would spend extra time working with the kid to bring them back up to grade level. She didn't believe in learning disabilities.

    3. My mom would start with phonics, which she called "primers" and then move on to regular children's books.

    Also, my mom disliked several things:

    1. The State Board of Education was constantly coming out with these programs to do various things. Invariably, my mom would point out that they were worthless, because they didn't provide extra materials to the classroom. One time, she got this program from the state, and the principal had her evaulate it. She trashed it, saying it didn't give her any materials for the classroom, and all it had her do was waste her time filling in boxes with colored pencils (I kid you not). The principal yelled at her for giving the wrong answer.

    2. My mom also disliked Title XII, which was supposed to help the learning disadvantaged. First off, instead of adding extra classroom time for the kids that were behind (which just makes sense), they would take the kid out of her classroom. If you realize that the kid would have to leave, go to a different classroom, settle down, get some "concentrated" attention, then get up, go back to my mom's classroom, and settle down again, then the kids that were behind would actually end up with an hour less teaching time then the regular kids. That was just dumb.

    My mom, as a schoolteacher could tell you: the schools don't need more money, they need less State Board of Education, and less School District. Now my mom was also the shop steward for her union. She hated the union, but she hated the School District more.

    Which brings us to NCLB. NCLB is all about telling the education establishment, and by that I don't mean teachers, but I do mean the Teachers Union and the State Board of Education, ENOUGH It's a very blunt instrument. Schools must reform, or face drastic measures. Is it severe? Perhaps. Yet I think the population has gotten so frustrated with the educational establishment that it was an idea whose time has come. It will, and has been lighting a fire under our educational s

  • by flint ( 118836 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:20PM (#10180600)
    My intent was humor which apparently only the moderator noticed ;)
  • Re:German schools (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:23PM (#10180646)
    That's not a good point to try to argue. The schools themselves are already segregated, in the German system. You can get a minimum education, learn a trade, or prepare for university. There's no in-between, though you can improve your degree later on. That is one way in which they are "more regimented" than in the USA. One thing which I do think is preferable to the typical USA system is scheduling - instead of six to eight periods of the same classes every day, the schedule is actually different on different days of the week :P


    Here [thinkquest.org] is an article detailing the comparison.

  • by wormbin ( 537051 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:26PM (#10180694)

    There is already a working example of this: : the German school system [thinkquest.org] (warning, this link contains cheesy midi music)

    They have have several different schools, some of which are geared for a working occupation and one (Gynasium) which is for univerisity bound kids. Kids are slotted into these schools at a very young age--10yo I think. One of the things that makes this work is that (supposedly) training in a tradeskill is not associated with low prestige like it is in the states. Being a cook or a car mechanic gets a fair amount of respect and does not result in a salary that is 1/10 of a doctor.

    I'm not German so if there are any Deutchlanders out there that can comment on their experiences with this system I would appreciate it.

  • by finnhart ( 653695 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:31PM (#10180763)
    For those who would like a shorter essay by the same author on the same topic, he wrote an article entitled Against School [spinninglobe.net] in the September 2003 [harpers.org] issue of Harper's Magazine. [harpers.org]
  • by matima ( 790264 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:38PM (#10180863)
    Teachers are paid just fine, on an hour by hour basis they start at what a Civil Engineer makes. I have never known a poor teacher they have always been middle class.

    You are correct, but perhaps I should have clarified and expounded on my statement. I wasn't implying that most teachers were the working poor, simply that they should be paid more than they are currently. Also, I am from Texas, where teachers' salaries are ranked 30th in the nation.(average $40k/year, not starting). Suffice it to say that what I make with only a two-year degree and less than a year of real work experience, I find that average salary rate of Texas teachers absurdly and offensively low.

    Many people that could teach (and would enjoy teaching) in public schools do not because other industries offer them higher salaries, more opportunities and advancements, and a more empowered working environment (where their syllabus is ruled by common sense and general standards, rather than by an impotent administrative body.)

    I do believe that increasing teachers' salaries will draw more potential teachers to the area and give schools a better selection to choose from, but of course that's only one part of the solution. The other part is to free the teachers from their administrative- and litigation-fearing shackles and let them do their job.

    Unfortunately, I think we could pony up the extra cash much easier than we could resolve the latter problem.
  • Re:This is brilliant (Score:3, Informative)

    by identity0 ( 77976 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @03:53PM (#10181102) Journal
    I think I should interject some of my own experiences.

    When I was little, I went to school in Japan for the first bit of elementary school, then went to American schools while taking saturday classes at a Japanese expatriate school until 3rd grade. I noticed a few things:

    1) In math and a couple of other subjects, the Japanese schools were about a year ahead of the American ones. This actually hindered me later in life, because I became lazy in the American schools and 'coasted' without putting in much effort, until I started failing classes.
    2) Japanese schools had much more regimented and controlling feel to it, whereas American schools actually let kids be kids. I think the American schools were better in that respect.
    3) American schools don't expect as much from their kids academically, and seem to act as more of a 'babysitting' service or daycare, at least in the elementary levels.
    4) Japanese schools put a lot more pressure on kids academically, and force them to comptete even to get into a 'good' middle school or high school through standardized tests. This puts a lot of stress on kids, and I hope that the U.S. won't become like that with the "No child left behind" act.

    I have other things to add, but I have to go for now, will post more later.
  • by The Ape With No Name ( 213531 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @04:22PM (#10181485) Homepage
    'Docile Bodies' is a big ole MF hammering point. Discipline and Punish has a whole chapter devoted to it. I hope he cited it....
  • by Tar-Palantir ( 590548 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @04:25PM (#10181531)
    Most schools have reasonable admission policies for homeschoolers, and some even actively recruit us. In general, you will have to come up with a transcript (I wrote mine myself, with the aid of my parents) and the usual letters of recommendation. Some schools require you to get a GED as well. There are a few more hoops to jump through, but overall it is not odious.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @04:26PM (#10181541)

    The unholy alliance of lazy large busineses looking for replaceable cogs and schools willing to crank them out is what we have these days. Unfortunately people trained to be good little cogs don't do great things. Bill Gates for example is not a good little cog. Bill doesn't have a CME either, I bet.


    I don't want to spoil the ending, but the point you're making was the subject of an Asimov story, "Profession" [abelard.org].
  • by swagr ( 244747 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @04:52PM (#10181883) Homepage
    Christopher Lasch wrote about this in 1979 in "The Culture of Narcissism".
    I'm sure he wasn't the first.

    Nice to see people are finally catching on.
  • by gwn ( 594936 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @04:55PM (#10181917)
    I am a certified teacher as is my spouse; we both have multiple university degrees, and two school age children. I have taught in both public and private schools and found both to have good and bad qualities. I agree fully with Gatto (read his work a while ago) about the purpose of public schools and where they are taking our children, to the factory floor (or lower with off-shoring). In the private school I saw the tuition dollar driving educational and advancement decisions, students advanced because the tuition cheque cleared. If you want to make the most of your student/child's education and give them the opportunity to grow and develop into their full potential remember the following: 1: Parents are the first and most important teachers. Your kids will follow your example; read a book, have a discussion, take a course, learn something new, and do this with them. 2: Know what happens in your student's school (public/private/home); call the principal, visit the teacher, send notes, follow up tests, question policies, etc. Don't let a problem be the first and only reason you talk. 2: When they are in a school you must provide positive support both direct (volunteering) and indirect (reading to kids, having books in the house, shutting off the tv/Nintendo/ps2/computer/etc) participation is paramount. 3: Talk about school with your kids; what did they learn, can they teach it to you? 4: Empower them with their right to a good education, and their responsibilities as a student 5: Take opportunities to expand their worldview; take them out of school for family trips, special events, bonding opportunities. 6: Finally, help them learn to make decisions and then let them make decisions. Yes, they will make mistakes and learn from them and grow... Of course there is much more you can do. If you do some of what I suggest you will be part of the solution. Of course you may drive some teachers and administrators nuts first and your kids will want you to walk way behind them at the mall...
  • by Teach ( 29386 ) * <graham@grahammitchel l . c om> on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @05:58PM (#10182671) Homepage

    So two teachers married make more than 80,000 a year? Thats not a bad haul considering they get the months of July and August off. They also get a week for Winter and spring breaks, and on top of that their sick and vacation time. Do you get that much time off, do you work on call? Do you always have a fixed hour day?

    Actually, in Texas we get June and July off, not July and August.

    However, the idea that teachers have a "fixed hour day" is laughable. I have four preps, because that's what they ask me to teach. Last week, I was at school Monday night until 1:45 AM grading, Tuesday until 6pm, and Wednesday until 10pm. I have evening commitments Thursday and Friday, so I left "early" at 5, but made up for it by coming in for a couple of hours each on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday of the Labor Day weekend. And I'm not married (as you'd probably guess from my hours worked), so it's just the one salary.

    Elementary school teachers have it worse. I've virtually never seen an elementary school teacher who wasn't grading. Admittedly, my grading schedule for last week was worse than average, but not by an order of magnitude or anything.

    I have a CS degree from one of the top-ten CS schools in the US, and seven years of teaching experience, but I make just over $35K. And I don't think I'm being selfish in saying that's too low for my level of education/skill and workload. Now, I'm not complaining, because I enjoy my job and knew the pay would be low before I got in, but the point is, most teachers deserve higher pay.

    And, in fact, the only reason I get paid as well as I do is that my school district spends slightly more than 80% of its overall budget on salaries. And so I don't have any budget whatsoever (so the $50 CD-burner I'm going to buy for my classroom will come out of pocket), but that's the breaks.

    Until you can fire a teacher for being bad at their job you will not have good teachers (and this is very hard to do). Youll simply have better paid bad teachers.

    Here, however, is where I agree with you. Not all teachers take their mandate as seriously as I do. Some teachers are terrible, and the current system (in Texas, anyway) is basically such that a school district can only "non-renew" a teacher after their first year with the district. If they hire that teacher for a second year, they pretty much can't be fired unless they 1) touch a student (sex or violence) or 2) touch money they shouldn't.

    Most districts handle that by waiting for bad teachers to leave through retirement or attrition, and just make damn sure that all new hires are "good", as far as you can tell such things, anyway.

    If we had a workable system of teacher evaluation and could easily get rid of bad teachers, then people would probably be comfortable paying the remaining "good" teachers more. Probably.

    Anyway, just my $0.02.

  • by TiloB ( 783192 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @06:29PM (#10182986)
    You are right in your main points.

    Just some supplements:

    There were great discussions about our educational system after our terrible PISA results (I for one think it is a statistical problem). A lot of politicians believe that a all-day school system would help.

    I believe that pupils should be slotted at least 2 years later, parents should care for their children again and education should be better standardized between the states. Especially our school books are a mess, teachers are forced to base their lessons on copies from other sources too often.

    A lot of people in Germany don't go to a College after normal school/gymnasium but start an apprenticeship which is a semi school/job training where one already receives money. That seems to be very effective.

    And they want to displace our 4 year Diplom system at universities with a 3+2 year Bachelor/Master system, which should be seen in about 20 years as a terrible mistake.
  • by Matt Moyer ( 763238 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @06:56PM (#10183302) Homepage
    Speaking as a homeschooled senior in high school, I can say that very few of the schools I have talked/applied to have had any special requirements for homeschoolers.

    A few schools (Reed and Cornell come to mind) do require that homeschooled students take SAT II subject tests, others require a personal interview only from homeschoolers. In most cases though, the school will just give a higher weight to the students SAT/ACT score and essay rather than to their GPA.

    Another thing myself and a few of my homeschooled peers have done is to take classes at the local community college, which provides an outside verification of ability.
  • by brianerst ( 549609 ) on Tuesday September 07, 2004 @08:46PM (#10184558) Homepage
    Actually, the US foreign-born population is just under 12 percent [state.gov], with about half that number from Latin America.

    Though I couldn't find any breakouts purely for foreign-born, Sweden's foreign-born and first generation immigrant mix is 20 percent [state.gov]. The majority of immigrants appear to be from other Nordic countries, with large numbers of refugess from the former Yugoslavia and a sizeable Iranian/Iraqi population.

    Canada currently has the second largest percentage of foreign-born at 18.4 percent [wsws.org]. The majority of these are from Asia (56%) and Europe (20%). If the US figures are a guide (and they may not be), Asian and European immigrants tend to have higher educational achievement levels than Latin Americans, which are the majority immigrant group in the US, and would thus tend to depress international standing less than in the US.

    Once again, I am not arguing for or against such immigration. Latin American immigration has provided many benefits for the US, but it does have a negative effect on educational achivement levels as a percentage of population.

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