Steve Jobs In Praise of Dropping Out 1014
atlacatl writes "Wired reports on Steve Jobs giving a graduation speech: 'Jobs, 50, said he attended Reed College in Portland, Oregon but dropped out after only eight months because it was too expensive for his working-class family. He said his real education started when he "dropped in" on whatever classes interested him -- including calligraphy.' The irony: that most students were graduating. I wouldn't invite him for a high school graduation. Imagine all the 'hard' work teachers, parents and guidance counselors put into brainwashing every kid that he/she must go to University." (Jobs was speaking to the graduates at Stanford University.)
Not for everyone (Score:2, Interesting)
Students might want to consider there own abilities and motivation for success before eagerly taking such advice.
Life, don't talk to me about life.
Congratulations!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
Not Feynman. (Score:5, Interesting)
up the machine," electing to go with sensory deprivation instead of drugs to get a hallucinogenic experience going.
--grendel drago
he doesn't seem to advocate dropping out... (Score:3, Interesting)
college degrees, especially these days, are a guarantee of nothing other than having a piece of paper. for many people and many fields the real learning is accomplished by doing rather than absorbing theory.
i dropped out, and luckily i have done very well for myself. but if asked by younger people who are still in the system, i certainly wouldn't RECOMMEND people leave school unless they already had a very clear plan of their future.
the educational system is geared towards very specific professions at the exclusion of many viable, valuable professions that don't require their teaching. i don't believe it's done out of any malice but rather just a lack of information.
Education can be an impedement (Score:1, Interesting)
The guy had lost a job plucking chickens because he did not have grade 10. He never did get an education but he did start a multi million dollar business. At a party someone said to him: "Look what you've done without an education. Imagine what you could have done with one." His reply was something like: "I'd still be back plucking chickens."
Education trains you to be a good employee. If you want to be the boss, work on starting a business. You may fail a few times but many of my friends have found one thing that really worked. We have a local self-made factory owner who regrets having sent his children to university. He strongly believes that they should have learned a trade like him (he started out as a machinist).
Re:Just because Jobs dropped out... (Score:3, Interesting)
--Mike
Re:Not Feynman. (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you certain that sensory deprevation is safer than LSD? Furthermore, evidence that LSD is damaging to the mind is suspect (There is aboslutely no evidence that it damages the brain). Stories about people who've 'freaked out' on acid or other drugs were most likely already insane or mentally unstable. Remember, *a lot* of people did *a lot* of drugs in the sixties, and you don't see every middle-aged baby boomer in the asylum, do you?
Unfortunately, because of the war on drugs, it's difficult to get good data on what LSD does. We really don't understand currently how it works on the mind.
I dropped out... (Score:4, Interesting)
Two years later, I was driving a cab. I did that until I saved enough money to build a small recording studio, which I ran while playing in another band and doing live sound on the side. By the mid-'90s, I had a gig as a 3D animator and graphic artist, skills that had previously been hobbies for me. That led to a partnership in a media services company that also did software development. We sold out before the bubble burst.
Right now, I'm vice president of a company that does system administration on a contract basis. Small company in a small market, but profitable nonetheless.
Not having a degree pretty much precludes working for a large corporation, but I've never wanted to work for a big company. I do regret not getting a liberal arts education, and it's something I'd like to pursue soon, even though I'm in my forties. I'm looking to retire in about five years anyway, so I'll have the time.
To make it without a degree, it helps to be in a field that doesn't require one (like the arts), to be willing to do menial jobs now and then (like driving and dispatching taxis), and to be able to teach yourself the skills you need (technical, entrepreneurial, etc.). I can't stress the last one enough: without the support of a company behind you, sending you to training seminars and paying your way, you have to be your own teacher.
k.
Re:Sure, a few people drop out because they are sm (Score:2, Interesting)
Considering my BS was in EE can you guess what got me my first job out of college? Thats right; some perl coding I did in a part time job while in school! My knowledge of semiconductors has completely atrophied. However, I've gone on to get my MS in CS and the A's came with only a bit of hard work because I was motivated.
That being said, I did learn something of great import while in undergrad. After getting mediocre grades throughout I somehow matured a little bit and taught myself how to learn. This was the most important thing I got out of undergrad. I understand that this anecdotal, but if that is the only lesson some one learns after 4 years of higher education than its worth all the debt they took on.
Re:Guess what (Score:3, Interesting)
Eventually, I earned enough that I could afford 25 hours per week with a lighter schedule.
If you really want to go to school, you can. I didn't realize what was out there for folks in the way of grants and stuff... probably good, or I'd be more in debt
Why don't you share what you think you want to do with your life, and mayble we can figure out a way to get you in school...
Re:Bah (Score:3, Interesting)
> his younger days. That a
> good thing too??
Let me rephrase this: "He also hired John Sculley in his younger days. That a good thing too??"
Re:What a dick! (Score:2, Interesting)
There are lots of people at universities for which university is way above them. I remember a number of Computer Science topics at university in the 3rd and 4th year where half the populous couldn't grasp the idea of non-decimal numbering and basic logical operators (and/or). They were there because it was the start of the dot-bomb boom and CS degrees were looked upon as a way to get filthy rich quickly.
I used to know a girl who dropped out of CS to get a job with a well known web portal company in Sydney. She walked out of a course she was failing miserably at second year level into a $100k job.. Her $100k job didn't last long and last I heard she was sweeping floors to pay the rent!
Same went for engineering (that was actually the course I studied) and the arts (we were required to take a couple of free electives from non engineering/science topics). So many people in so many courses have no clue about what they've been studying.
University is doing nothing more than running them into debt. They'd be better off leaving and getting learning a practical trade. At least they'd pass and be able to hold a real job in their trade at the end of it.
Here's the basic flaw in his speech. (Score:5, Interesting)
Looking back on his life, there will be certain items that he deems to be "important".
Looking back on anyone's life will also yield certain "important" choices or events or whatever. Those are items that shaped your life.
But that does not mean that someone else can imitate those choices and get a similar life. As you noted, some drop out because they're smart, but more drop out because they aren't. It isn't the dropping out.
And I don't believe that Steve's "experience" with cheap college life and calligraphy would mean much if not for a certain Steve Wozniak.
Re:Avoid ask.slashdot for a few days... (Score:2, Interesting)
Bottom line, just because someone has a degree does not necessarily make them better. Its the "real world" experience that counts the most IMHO.
If it wasn't for those hits of acid... (Score:1, Interesting)
Then again if those same hits of acid was found in Bill Gates car when he was arrested, it's quite possible there wouldn't have been a Windows after all.
Such is fate.
http://homepage.mac.com/hogfish/PhotoAlbum2.html [mac.com]
Why then does Apple *require* degrees for IT jobs? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hypocritical fuktoads
Bill
Re:Sure, a few people drop out because they are sm (Score:3, Interesting)
1. William Gates III
2. Warren Buffett
3. Lakshmi Mittal
4. Carlos Slim Helu
5. Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud
6. Ingvar Kamprad
7. Paul Allen
8. Karl Albrecht
9. Lawrence Ellison
10. S Robson Walton
Not Really... (Score:3, Interesting)
I've known a lot of very intelligent people but not all of them had the drive or the passion. Unfortunately, many children growing up, especially the intelligent ones, forget the other ingredient needed and assumes their natural talent will bring them success. They neglect school and somehow expect their talents to just kick in and solve all their problems when they need it. Memorization shouldn't be the only part of education but knowing things in advance will save you a lot of time from having to solve them again, probably in a worse way. So, for the rest of us, schooling and formal education are useful. There's no doubt that Jobs is an incredible person, very rare among people. His path to success will no doubt be different and inaccessible to the majority of students.
In Defense of College (Score:5, Interesting)
People who might benefit by going to a university:
1) Anyone who doesn't know what they want to do:
Before I started college I had never heard of Linguistics. Because there were no other courses available, I took a Linguistics course my first quarter, and immediately loved it. I'll be graduating with bachelors in both Linguistics and Computer Science soon. Without going to a university (one large enough to offer Linguistics, at that), it would have been very difficult to stumble upon that passion. This broader background will help me to do the natural language processing research I am (now) interested in. Similarly, backgrounds in many fields (e.g. Biology, Physics, Geology,
2) People who like variety:
Depending on who you work for, the variety of the type of work you do will vary. By design, the courseload in a undergraduate CS program is varied, including architecture, ethics, algorithms, automata theory, and of course, programming. I've programmed in Scheme, Prolog, C, C++, C# over the past four years on projects including a networked filesystem, a unix shell, a raytracer, a scheme interpreter, and device device drivers in NetBSD and WinXP. All of these projects were great fun.
3) People who like to challenge themselves:
Anywhere you go, smart people will be able to find ways to challenge themselves. At a university, you have the advantage of a knowledgeable faculty who have plenty of pet projects they'd love to let you loose on. I've also found it very easy to get faculty to supervise research projects of my choosing. It's a great environment for getting a lot done, if you are self-motivated and hardworking. And there is something "pure" and refreshing about doing work without commercial motives - many great projects were birthed and/or nurtured in an academic environment.
I was reluctant to go to college, under the same opinion that if you are smart enough, you don't need it (plus I was just lazy). However, I've found that the university environment is ideal for smart people: lots of challenges, lots of variety. Anyone with the intelligence, curiousity and passion to succeed on ther own would thrive in a good program. Sure, college is expensive. But, again, if you are that intelligent and motivated, you can get scholarships, assistantships, and grants.
I am extremely grateful that I decided to go to college, it has been a great experience and worth every cent.
Steve Jobs' experience was unique.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, my experience was a lot like yours.. I was doing well until around two years ago, but I'm struggling again now..
I don't think my experience is that atypical.. The powers that be are getting their revenge on those Internet geeks for screwing up their plans for global domination..
Seriously. The Internet changed everything, and they want to make us pay..
In the 70s (and I met Steve then, when I was in high school, and he was selling his computer kit to 'telephone enthusiasts') and like us, he was in the right place at the right time.. with the right product...
But its all changed..
These days, millions of Americans who are forced to drop out of (or who never attend) college because of money find it really hard to get decent jobs (read - jobs with health insurance and retirement benefits) nomatter how skilled they are...
The US is now more economically stratified than western european countries, including the uk, canada and australia/new zealand
we need open source education.. some kind of accredited open internet university for people who cant afford the rich kids colleges.. or who don't want to go into debt for 20 years
Why cant the open source community get behind an open source college?
Its an idea whose time has come..
Re:Sure, a few people drop out because they are sm (Score:2, Interesting)
drop out, tune in, turn on (Score:2, Interesting)
I moved to Europe, traveled the world for almost 10 years, and then went back to school. Got a 4.0 for several years, taking tough courses about subjects that I really wanted to understand. Then bailed out again and got a job in computing- and have done that ever since.
A few years ago I got my own consulting gig at $120 per hour, and made 1/4 mil per year for the first time in my life.
I think Jobs and I agree on these points: success comes to those who are smart and motivated. Jobs and I are motivated by love of what we do. We knew enough to find out what we love, and had the courage to follow our hearts: all the way to success and good money. Notice: those are not the same. The money came because I was lucky enough to enjoy a field that is in demand. Success also comes to self-fulfilled but poor artists.
You want money? Go to college, get degrees, get well paid work.
You want success? Find out what you love, do it well, and wholeheartedly
drop out, tune in, turn on...
Re:Sure, a few people drop out because they are sm (Score:3, Interesting)
Higher ed isn't the only measure (Score:3, Interesting)
It's known that geniuses, by their nature, simply do not fit in. I wonder how someone like Einstein would do in today's invironment.
Re:Arrogance of Good Looks (Score:3, Interesting)
So don't look at Jobs and see the Arrogance of Good Looks. Look at yourself and consider the arrogance of thinking Jobs only made it because of good looks.
Re:Not Feynman. (Score:4, Interesting)
According to James Gleick's biography Genius, Richard Feynman experimented with LSD during his professorship at Caltech. Somewhat embarrassed by his actions, Feynman sidestepped the issue when dictating his anecdotes; consequently, the "Altered States" chapter in Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! only describes marijuana and sensory deprivation experiences.
Re:Sure, a few people drop out because they are sm (Score:4, Interesting)
Now I'm a math major and hope to go on to get a PhD... not because I want to "do something" with my degree (I like programming, so I'll just keep doing that) but because leaning is fun.
Dropping out was really a great thing for me, really. I had fun and crazy times rather than sitting in school wishing I was having fun and crazy times. Now I'm older (and know how to manage the somewhat-less-crazy fun around a schedule better) and can be in school and enjoy it.
Education not the be all and end all (Score:3, Interesting)
Most likely he was talking to a large bunch of smart and educated young people and telling them that today was the first day of the rest of their life, i.e. getting an expensive education is not the end. Some people do not have the same level of education as they do, yet can be successful and smart too. Doubtlessly in the audience there were people who graduated because their parents had money.
At a college like Standford with the degree also comes the network of peers. It would be a mistake to think that because suddently they are part of a high-level clique they are more intelligent and deserving than others. They still have to go to work and achieve something on their own to deserve any significant accolade.
In Europe we have some prestigious schools too. At one of them the president was a military man, and always made some speech at graduation. He was fond of telling his graduating students that (1) there are stupid people everywhere and (2) the more educated they are, the more dangerous they are.
My own university president was fond of quoting movies. There is a classic French movie called "a taxi for Tobruk", a war movie with great dialog, where a couple of people are in a jeep who breaks down in the desert. The two people are a grunt and an officer. The officer decides to stay near the jeep and wait, while the grunt decides to walk and find help. The officer tells him he'll soon die, but the grunt replies "un con qui marche va toujours plus loin qu'un intellectuel assis".
An idiot who walks always goes further than a seated intellectual.
Perhaps this is not very different from the Jobs attitude.
Cheers.
Sometimes it's the right option.. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's a lot tougher to guage wether it's the right decision when you're making it though. When I first dropped out of high school I thought I was moving into a long term career in fast food. In hindsight I saved myself about $20k and gained 4+ years of work experience on my friends.
Since I'm also moving into self-employment the glass ceiling that would face me if I was in a corporate environment with no paperwork is not an issue.
For those of you who are at a crossroads; When you're making this choice, remember, either way you're actually blessed with good fortune, and making either choice isn't the end of the road, by far.