When to Leave That First Tech Job 689
An anonymous reader writes "Chris Wilson has an interesting piece about a scenario all CompSci/Engineering students dread, getting a job out of college and having it quickly turn sour. He writes: 'The first layoff is tough. After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward? To summarize how I felt: Disillusioned.' He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward "Getting out". An interesting read, especially for aspiring engineers or engineers out on their first job."
When to leave the industry.. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:When to leave the industry.. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:When to leave the industry.. (Score:4, Funny)
God bless tabbed browsing!
FIST SPORT! (Score:4, Funny)
Then, when everyone else has gone, start a fire.
Re:FIST SPORT! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:FIST SPORT! (Score:5, Funny)
Bob Slydell: Milton Waddams.
Bill Lumbergh: Who's he?
Bob Porter: You know, squirrely looking guy, mumbles a lot.
Bill Lumbergh: Oh, yeah.
Bob Slydell: Yeah, we can't actually find a record of him being a current employee here.
Bob Porter: I looked into it more deeply and I found that apparently what happened is that he was laid off five years ago and no one ever told him, but through some kind of glitch in the payroll department, he still gets a paycheck.
Bob Slydell: So we just went a ahead and fixed the glitch.
Bill Lumbergh: Great.
Dom Portwood: So um, Milton has been let go?
Bob Slydell: Well just a second there, professor. We uh, we fixed the *glitch*. So he won't be receiving a paycheck anymore, so it will just work itself out naturally.
Bob Porter: We always like to avoid confrontation, whenever possible. Problem solved from your end.
Re:FIST SPORT! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:FIST SPORT! (Score:3, Interesting)
article text (Score:5, Informative)
When to leave your first job in the technology field
Editorial by Christopher Wilson
It was early May of 2004, and I was almost at the finish line for my degree. Between me and graduation: Just two summer classes. I was in the process of finishing what could only be described as the most intense spring semester of my college career. As the semester's end finally hit, I realized something. I was going to need a job, and I hadn't even started looking.
Then, almost on cue, the phone rang. The president of a small and local software company was looking for computer engineers with
I was to be part of a team of highly skilled, versatile,
It did not go as planned.
One stressful year later, while I was staying late with a few other developers to finish up on some work, I was asked to report to the president's office. My manager was already there, sitting on the same side of the desk as the president. They explained to me, in a level and professional tone, that due to financial factors, I was going to be let go, with only an hour's severance pay. Thanks for all the hard work, and best of luck.
The first layoff is tough. After bending over backward, after being a loyal employee, this is the reward? To summarize how I felt: Disillusioned. Only one thing kept me going -- pure ego. You know when the schoolyard bully says something about your mom in front of everyone? But, ignoring the size difference and the fact that he's already shaving daily at age 14, you step forward and say "Oh yeah?", with a Brock Sampson-like eye twitch the only warning of the impending ownage? That's the kind of ego that kept me determined to give software engineering a second shot.
Over the course of the previous year, my friends quickly learned I liked to talk about work less and less. When I did open up about it, they were astounded by, well, let's say various factors of the work environment. Each and every time it was discussed with my peers in the field, time and time they gave me the same advice: Get out.
I have to say, they were totally right.
All the signs were there, but I blazed on, telling myself that this was just a rough patch for the company, and that we'd pull out of this tailspin in time to land safely at our destination. I was ignoring the pilots screaming "Mayday, Mayday".
Now, while I was blind to obvious signs that it was time to leave, doesn't mean that you have to be. I would like to present the 4 signs that you should leave your workplace (for software engineers):
1 It's the environment, stupid!
In the University of Pittsburgh's Computer Engineering program, there is a mandatory department seminar, where the department informs us about our career options. Oftentimes, alumni come back to speak about the career opportunities in their field. It's all very, very dry, and as a result, nobody listens. They also fail to give one piece of advice that I would at the first seminar of every year, if I was ever asked to give one:
Don't work in cubicles, ever. Working in cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company. Imagine the smartest person you know, working in your field. Now imagine how they would react if they were told they're going to work in a box with no door or roof,
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Run for the hills (literally), and try to get 100 miles from their nearest customer.
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nuclear plants would really be good off with some really old boxes running single threaded os's on them ( and that are backed up by some failover boxes just to be sure ). this way you have no lockups , no blue screens, no nuclear mushrooms over your city.
Waste of time. Run a modern design incapable of meltdown and use simple monitors where possible. Old, reliable is good, but address the root problem first. Oh, and nuke plants don't explode.
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Chernobyl !!!
Stuff it. You were talking about mushroom clouds, not overpressurized steam. Anyway, pebble-bed reactors don't behave like chernobyl.
Re:article text (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, for someone who really seems to hate 'stupid', you are making a pretty big assumption. Just because they were writing sortware for the nuclear power industry, doesn't mean that they were writing reactor control systems. I mean, the nuclear power industry needs infrastructure databases like any other businuess.
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I will grant you that all of this was directly associated with the operation of the reactor itself, but even if you're talking about somethin
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How about Wonderware, another prevalent suite of process control and data tools. They are moving to
How about all of the
And yes, I know for a fact that the nuclear power plant about 20-30 miles from me has
How about Mole? I have no clue what is running to actually collect the data (I did at one time, but it's been a while). It uses a SQL database as it's historian, so I would be incredibly surprised if someone wasn't developing or running some
As far as fear of nuclear plants goes, I don't have much. My fear is paper plants. Especially old paper plants that run the entire process from wood chips to paper. I'll never forget almost being forgot in one of the control rooms the day before christmas when they were evacuating half the plant due to a chemical leak...I don't remember what it was now, except that it was insanely deadly, in extremely small doses (.5 ppm?) it would kill your nasal receptors in a few seconds, so while it wasn't odorless it wasn't exactly something you could smell either...not to mention that that same small dose was capable of killing, not just you, but the person that tried to save you (clothing, skin contact), etc. There wasa case at a paper plant in SC or georgia where 5 people were taken out. Two ambulances took two of them each, bythe time they gotto the hospital the medical personal were already showing symptoms. The 5th guy was taken by his boss who had followed some safety procedures (get rid of the clothes, wrap in another cloth, then go to the hospital) and they still had to replace the backseat of his car...
Lastly, it would take a lot more than a computer crash to take down a reactor in such a waythat it would go critical, somehow ignore the multitude of safeguards, etc. I'm not sure you could purposely cause tht to happen, as so many safeguards are engineered in (there is no "Make it go boom" button). On top of that, there is a significant difference between sending a set of commands to a specific device in it's manufacturers specific protocol for that device and sending a burst of gibberish. What you do lose is some of your monitoring. I don't know as much about the monitoring at nuclear plants as I didn't work on that part at all, but at standard turbine plants they have two systems, the computers in the control room (Windows, Solaris, VMS, whatever) and either whatever equipment is left form the 50's (analog (pneumatic?) equipment, yes it's still out there) or LCDs. Either way it runs completely seperate from the data control software and systems.
Sorry for the extra ramble
Re:article text (Score:5, Interesting)
This a big fallacy. When I started my job I shared an office with a coworker, but due to various moves to different buildings through the years I'm now in a cubicle. In fact, almost everyone in my building (all 5 floors) has a cubicle. The only people with offices are either high-level managers or executives. I would hardly say my company isn't successful, and the cubicle isn't so bad considering that I can work from home any time I want.
And I think you've heard of this company, it's called IBM.
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Here were the signs that led me to leave:
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While we don't have kids, we do have a house and deep ties to the area.
SirWired
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The bottom line, and my response to the article, is this : with rare exception, there is no such thing as company loyalty. A business is a business, and they will do whatever it takes to stay in business, even if it means laying off their most loyal employees. I learned a long time ago to treat a company as a shark while I act as the lamprey. Find "resume building activities" that can help you while helping the company reach their goals (making shitloads of money). Always look out for yourself and your family and your career first so you're not stuck when the company decides that your department no longer meets the companies needs.
I know it sounds bad, but I've been burned too many times over the past 10 years as a developer. I've also seen way too many friends burned as well. I've worked for some high profile companies in the past several years, and all of them ultimately put their needs over the needs of the employees. The faster you learn that this is the way the world works, the better off you'll be!
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I don't want to imply that happiness on the job is overrated, but very few of us can claim to be happy all, or even nearly all, of the time with our work--even the self-employed. For most of us, a significant chunk of whatever our given job is involves Sadly Boring Shit. Drudge work, waiting for work, paperwork about waiting for drudge work.
Do look out for warning signs about when to quit your job, sure. But make sure those aren't just signs of a bad day (or week, or even month). And if at all possible, get the next job before you quit the crappy one.
If you don't do that, make sure you're prepared for unemployment. Try to follow all the standard cliche advice: have enough money to live on for six months. (This means figuring out what your minimum outflow--housing, food, gas, utilities, other debt payments--is per month. A whole lot of people I know have no idea what this is.) You can expect to spend a month looking for work for every $10K of salary in the range you're looking for (I know people who've spent a lot less, yes, but I also know people who've spent well past that time)
Re:article text (Score:5, Insightful)
Great point. The cubicle backlash is a tad extreme and the idea of being always happy at your job is probably getting too much airplay. You CAN be happy working in a cubicle and you can be miserable working in a job with an office.
Also, chances are, you're not working at Adobe or Microsoft, so you may need to realistically redefine what the employer has to provide for you to be "happy"...or you need to get a job at Adobe or Microsoft. Just because you boss doesn't let you bring your dog into the office, it may turn out that you can live with that concession if you try.
You make several other excellent points in a post worthy of a +5 insightful.
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Depression limits focus and creativity, which will make any job more difficult, which leads to more depression; when little shit starts to bothers you, maybe its time to look at the comp package and use one or two of those sick days for mental health.
Everybody is going to go through a sitsuational depressions/burn-outs, and the first time is going to be a real whammy, after you've learned how you react to it and develope some compensitory behaviours it easy to nip it in the bud before its too self-reinforcing for self-help.
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In short, office != quiet.
My advice is to get an iPod and a pair of noise cancellation headphones. Make sure you turn your desk, or put up a mirror or something if you're easily startled...Every place I've ever worked, someone has thought it would be funny to try and "scare" me while I was doing this, and while this has never happened more than once, the reputation that goes with being a tightly-wound stress hound whose "fight" reflex beats the crap out of his "flight" reflex is no fun to live with, and hard to live down.
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Had a boss once who liked flicking me on the ear when I was coding, and when I'm coding, I put on the headphones, get into tunnel vision mode, and tune out the whole world. Having someone sneak up on me and flick me on the ear when I'm like that is the psychic equvalent of getting smacked with a 2x4. I was pretty rational about it at first, but we were pretty good friends, and he thought it was funny...
He did it about 3 times, and on the fourth time I snapped. I can't remember ever being so mad...I was so mad it wasn't even like being mad. I had a real moment where I really thought I might attack him, not a little scuffle or anything, but seriously out for blood...really wavered on it for a moment...then I turned and put my fist through two layers of a prefab wall.
Not my finest hour. Though it does mark the only point in my programming career where I found a use for the ability to repair drywall.
That kind of crap is hardwired with me. Normally it's not much of an issue, because how often do you end up with people literally sneaking up on you in a business environment? Used to be really useful in college...I could crash on a couch after a party and no one would even think about pulling post-party pranks on me.
But the first thing I do when I get a new job, is find a place to put my desk where no one can walk up without me seeing them. Better safe than sorry.
Re:article text (Score:5, Interesting)
besides it's no fun how can you have nerf wars in offices? and what happens when your neighor's gear catches fire while he's at lunch (happened to me) you'll notice in cubes (sniff sniff .... something's burning ...) maybe not in offices ....
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Environment as a warning (Score:3, Interesting)
> cubicles is the sure sign that you're not working for a successful company"
> is... well, a sure sign that the article's author hasn't worked at many
> companies.
Agreed. Cubicles can be an indicator, though. There are so many different styles. I would look at the working environment provided in the cubicle, and determine if it's mindless penny-pinching or part of a reasonable plan.
- Is the desktop space adequate for the
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Agreed. I've worked for some truly craptastic companies where everyone had their own office. I've also worked for several Fortune 500 companies where everyone except directors on up had cubicles. It has nothing to do with the success of the company whatsoever.
One naive, ignorant kid (Score:5, Interesting)
You're absolutely right. I don't know of a single large company that *doesn't* use cubes. It makes me question the writer's knowledge of...anything. He admits he didn't do anything to look for a job, didn't even bother to listen to alumni dispensing career advice because it was "all very, very dry." He grabbed the first one that made an offer, and got disillusioned when they canned him. Well, duh. Put a little effort into that job search, you'll have less chance of that happening.
There are other signs that make me think I'd like to hear management's side of the story. For one, he sounds like a prima donna. His sole qualification is a Bachelors in CS from a middle tier school, and he acts like he should be given the golden boy treatment in his first job. An office for a kid who knows .NET? Company car?!?!? Sorry, Charlie, the 90's are gone and that crap's over.
Also, he sounds a bit arrogant - implying that anyone over 40 doesn't know what they're doing, mentions that management didn't take his advice, etc. That could be true, or it could be that he's an arrogant little man who can't constructively work as part of a team.
I also wonder how good he was at his job - he says that management told him he wasn't picking up the work fast enough, and that he was just "barely middle of the pack." He says that was them "setting the employees up for failure." Yeah, that's one option. That or they don't think he's getting the job done.
Finally, this wasn't a mass firing. The impression I got was that he was selected to be let go among the team. He claims they blamed it on finances, but legally they would anyway, in all likelihood.
We only have one side of this story - it could well be another case of a kid coming out of college with a ton of arrogance, no respect for people who have a ton more experience than he, skills that didn't translate to his job, and a problem working with others. Perhaps there's a reason he was canned?
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You should think of yourself as somewhat of a free agent, not totally unlike a professional athlete. Money is the bottom line with any company and is independent of the behaviour of anyone in the company. Even employers "who put their money where their mouth is" are helpless if the money just isn't there for whatever reason.
So while your boss may be the nicest guy in the world able to inspire the troops through any adversity, if the money ever runs out then the troops will die, period. And blaming the employer is pointless, even if they deserve it. You have to think "I'm in this situation...how do I get out of it and if possible, how do I guard against it in the future". Let others waste time and energy whining. You can join in later...after you get your new job.
Some people may read this and think I have a totally self-centered attitude...and that'd be true to an extent. However it doesn't mean that you have to become a callous asshole. You can still be a nice, moral person. However, being nice doesn't mean you're a naive pushover. You have a duty to look out for yourself.
We're still in the growing pains of a new era in the American/Global economy where getting a job doesn't mean you can retire there if you so choose. Let this layoff be a wakeup call.
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On the contrary. I have a house, a wife and two kids to feed and take care of, and I applaud you for being determined giving them top priority. That means standing firm when management keeps asking for more.
I've heard colleagues regret putting their work at #1, only to be surprised when their spose says she was leaving tomorrow.
Very very wrong, IMHO (Score:5, Insightful)
Money is a means, not an end. You can't eat money, you can't get much entertainment out of just looking at a bunch of 100$ bills, etc. The question is what you can do with them to improve your life quality, not the number alone, like some screwed-up game score.
And before you lash back with "well, duh, with more money you can buy more stuff and be happier", no, that's still not getting it.
Yeah, you can buy a bigger plasma TV or some high-end stereo or whatever, but if you end up in a job where an asshole demands your presence there 14 hours a day, and occasionally that you bring a sleeping bag and don't leave until he sees some program ready (yes, I've actually seen such an asshole)... you won't actually have the _time_ to actually _use_ those. You'll just have time to eat and flop into bed.
Additionally, let's talk about happiness on the whole. Even if money could buy some happiness, it's not a linear scale. Twice the money doesn't make you twice as happy. So you gain, what? Maybe 5% extra happiness in those 4-5 hours at home. If the price to pay is anywhere between 8 and 14 hours of pure hell at work, I'd say on the average you're actually worse off.
Guarding against the future? Hah. I'll tell you what's more likely to happen, because I personally know people who chose to work for an asshole for a lot more pay. You know how much they've saved for the future? Well, one was telling me at the end of last week that he's some $2000 in debt... right after salary day. (And that's not counting the debts for his car, the house, etc.)
Welcome to the deathtrap of consumerism. See, most people who try too hard to believe that success is measured in money alone, and that more money can literally buy happiness... end up literally trying to buy it. Or failing that, trying to convince themselves that theirs is the right way. ("Hey, look how much stuff I can buy with that money! Of course it's worth it! Why, that's what success is all about!")
The guy I was mentioning above, we're good friends, so I hear about it each time he gets a raise or a promotion. Also when he buys new stuff. Guess what? Each raise was followed by an even bigger increase in how much he spends. Each time he'll just get a bigger car, a bigger computer, then military-grade IR goggles for when he goes fishing, then now a bigger house in a whole other (more fashionable) town. (Just in case those 12 hours a day at the office weren't enough, now he'll also spend an extra 2 hours commuting.)
Those in turn just dig the trap deeper. Now with all those monthly payments and being in debt he _has_ to keep at it.
So what did he _really_ get out of it? Well, from where I stand, it looks like he's got $2000 debt, plus the loans for the car and house, and some 12 hours a day of high stress. Now with the extra commuting, he only gets to see his infant son briefly before going to sleep, and on weekends. Yeah, way to go.
My advice? Forget it. I've saved a lot more on a lesser wage. Not falling into the "money is everything, and consumerism is the way to show it off" trap tends to have that effect.
Right. Now some practical advice... (Score:5, Insightful)
The social contract is broken irretrievably, and we all need to adapt to the new reality. The new reality is, don't get too comfortable, keep the resume up to date, and move on the minute things are the slightest bit fishy. Some signs to look for:
o No more free pens in the stockroom, now the admin hands them out one by one and makes you sign for them.
o An all-company memorandum from the CEO shows up suddenly, responding to hallway rumors or soft-pedaling bad news.
o The perennial blame game between Sales, Marketing, and Engineering stops simmering and comes to a full boil in the hallway.
o A top executive (any top executive) leaves mysteriously.
o Sales guys start leaving (more than one is big trouble)
o "The Board" starts poking around and introducing themselves to people.
o A routine purchase request for equipment is turned down, regardless of justifications presented.
o There is an odd new emphasis on collections activity.
o "Investors" start showing up for tours of the engineering department.
o The annual customer conference is canceled or postponed.
o A delivery date is moved forward inexplicably, without consulting the engineers on the project.
o It is impossible to get a reasonable explanation from your boss for a clearly unreasonable situation or request.
o You are asked to stop work and "document" your project at a time that seems inappropriate and wrong.
o You are asked to sign any document "acknowledging" your equity position (if any), when it should be abundantly clear what your equity position is.
One small way to protect yourself (and to acquire information about the company's activities that they would not normally share with you) is to take advantage of any stock purchase plan (real stock, not options) put forward, and buy a few shares (preferably as few as possible). This will at least make you privy to the legal documents around acquisition scenarios and so on.
But the best way to protect yourself is to get the resume engine revved up the minute you see the warning signs above. No need to delay. Get the hell out.
Re:Very very wrong, IMHO (Score:3, Insightful)
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Offices are expensive. If you're THAT bothered by distractions, you can buy huge jars of very good foam earplugs for like $8 at your local drugstore. You don't need to hear everything going on around you. You don't need to see it either. Wear earplugs for a few weeks. Realize how little you're missing by not paying attention to everything around you. Soon, you'll likely develop virtual earplugs that will serve you just as well, and cost nothing.
Demanding that your employer provide the workforce with offices is saying "I require that you quadruple your rent to suit me." It is very, very unlikely that you are that much better than everyone else, nearly all of whom work just fine in cubes.
Your complaints about poor management, though, are spot-on. That is the telltale of a bad company. If you realize that the management is dumb, get the hell out.
THAT'S your sign, not cubicles.
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As for "companies with cubicles are doomed", how does that explain Intel? IIRC they were kicking ass and taking names under Andy Grove's watch, and HE worked in a cubicle along with everyone else at his insistence.
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The article's author should consider himself fortunate to have landed a job without even looking for one. The next time around, when he actually puts some effort into finding a job at a good company instead of taking whatever falls into his lap, maybe he'll actually have a job he enjoys at a company that treats him right.
.NET Ninjas (Score:5, Funny)
I don't think that I've bumped into any of those, are they like Tae Kwon Do-Dos?
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The one time I worked in a cubicle, it was not only hard to concentrate over the noise, but you lacked privacy and it seemed Big Brother was watching you, plus it also seemed like you were valued less, this was a step down from my offices of past.
It did help you not work and chat to your neighbour instead though.... Nice one management.
"2 Just How Dumb is Management, Anyway?"
Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side.
I've worked for managers who are knowledgeable ex-progra
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".NET Ninjas"
"our kung fu grip on
"We all hoped to have company cars..."
"Only one thing kept me going -- pure ego."
"Don't work in cubicles, ever."
"knowledge workers, so they can get into the zone"
"Put it as close to your ear as humanly possible"
"disregards your technical advice...If they were smart, they'd actually take it"
"I studied up on the re-install procedures...That task was going to another employee"
"Schedule Bullies...I'm writing this, I'm the only one who can tell how long this is going to take"
"have you developing in-house tools, when you'd rather be developing next-generation user interfaces"
"What about management classes?"
"If you are confident your compensation is inadequate, extend your superior the opportunity to rectify this mistake"
Perhaps some of this was involved with their decision that there wasn't enough money to continue your employment??
Re:article text (Score:5, Insightful)
Cubicles are indeed the massive suck. But
TFA missed an important point on my list though.
Death By Meeting
If you find yourself in a repetitive slew of non-technical (read: sales and marketing) meetings filled with the scum of the earth (ok, maybe only if you work at a law firm), and you aren't either (a) some sort of S&M liason or (b) upper-management, something is very very nordically decomposed.
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The company I work for is moving to a new office. I was quite directly involved in the space planning for the new office. I fought long and hard for private offices for our development staff, but the budget simply didn't allow it. Its not that offices are particularly more expensives than cubes, but the fact that a private wall arrangement takes up a LOT of space.. and space is expensive.
Instead, we really worked to put together a cubicle arrangement that optimizes the work space. We have social/meeti
You just described bad management (Score:5, Insightful)
No, not everyone. Only PHBs act like that. If the company you work for has to do all that charade, and you _still_ end up with massive overtime, you've just told me you have a complete idiot for a boss. And let me get back to one particular management idiocy there:
"If they didn't reduce the schedule from 8 to 6 days then they wouldn't be "productive"."
No. Measuring productivity like that has got to count as not just clueless, downright surrelistic lack of clue. And let me give you just one reason why.
In this job everything can be done in 1001 ways, and about 900 of them are bad shortcuts. They involve write-only code, lack of testing, and generally just hoping that the quickest and dirtiest and most unmaintainable hack will just work on the first try. If you cut someone's time by 25% you've just told them to take such a bad shortcut.
The result isn't just bad unmaintainable code (which _will_ bite you in the ass when you want to make a v2.0), and not only just buggy, but it might blow the deadline even worse. Debugging bad code takes a lot longer, and debugging (in one form or another) is what you do some 90% of the time. A shortcut that's nearly impossible to debug, and nearly impossible to change into something else (e.g., when debugging says that your very choice of algorithm was wrong) will likely take longer to be ready.
Or it may never be ready. Someone I know is still stuck in a project that should have been finished in the last quarter of _2002_. But yeah, they were always under pressure, so they skipped testing almost completely until the end of 2004, they always fixed bugs via the quickest hack that can sorta work, never had time to figure out a _consistent_ way to implement that spec, or to get a good spec out of the client for that matter, and so on.
Having to add fluff to justify the deadline wrangling game, again, adds complexity and adds places where bad shortcuts will bite you in the ass.
So that kind of approach "productivity" just means making a bad product.
A product's architecture and the allocated time should involve understanding the pros and cons of each approach. That's what design is all about: making an informed choice, and knowing the price you pay for that choice. (And there will _always_ be a price to pay. In some cases it will just be much smaller than the gains.) Replacing it with a sad game in which management pats just themselves on the back for imposing an arbitrary 25% to 75% without even asking what's the effect, is pretty much _the_ nemesis of any kind of good design.
what's wrong with cubicles? (Score:3, Insightful)
obligitory question (Score:3, Interesting)
Then how do you get B players?
Pro tip: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pro tip: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pro tip: (Score:5, Funny)
Soko
Re:Pro tip: (Score:4, Funny)
I always think "I would kill everyone in this room for some chilli cheese fries"
That's the only think that gets me through the day.
Interesting side thought... (Score:5, Interesting)
I work for a Doctor who owns his own practice. I recognize that he went through years of medical school to get where he is, and I respect that.
However, med school does not teach you Programming/Networking/System Diagnosis and Repair. It appears to have barely taught management.
When your boss thinks he knows how something should be done because he is a professional in another field, it is time to type up the resume and start passing it around. When you can't convince him of something because he "Knows" how it "Should" be done, your sunk.
Re:Interesting side thought... (Score:3, Funny)
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hint: don't bend over backward.
Re:Well... (Score:4, Funny)
>Hint: don't bend over backward.
An excellent point. Bending over forward works much better, as it allows you to at least rest on the desk (table, etc) with minimal stress.
As a bonus (?) this position gives management easier access to your rear entry, thus expediting the procedure.
Over-loyalty (Score:3, Interesting)
This is something I noticed about graduates in particular - they often try too hard to please. (I did the same thing at my first job, and a few years later could recognise it the new hires.) It's your first job, so you are eager to impress, think that your performance and not 'office politics' is what will primarily determine your advancement etc., so you bend over backwards - lots of extra hours, neglect your personal life, etc. This phenomenon makes graduates particularly ripe for abuse - employers know t
Cubicles (Score:5, Insightful)
I worked at Google. We had cubicles. Good thing this guy came along to tell me it wasn't a successful company or I never would have known.
Re:Cubicles (Score:3, Insightful)
He's new, big supprise he's unrealistic (Score:5, Insightful)
Guy strikes me as one of those. Ok, so maybe he really did get in a bad situation but his gripes scream of lack of experience. Cubicles are not always bad, maybe even not often. Personally, I wouldn't want an office at my current job. If we were all in offices, it would just make shit much harder and necessitate twice weekly staff meetings. As is, with us all in one room, we just talk as needed. If you are busy, you put your headphones on and people leave you alone. If not, you listen. Maybe people are talking about something that relates to you.
Not saying that's the case at all companies but to pretend cubicles are universally bad is stupid.
Same thing with the management gripe. On the surface it's some valid stuff, but tech people often get too caught up in thinking management is stupid. Well guess what? Just because they don't agree with you, doesn't make them dumb. There are realities in business that most tech people don't deal with. If your boss is good, you won't have to. However that doesn't mean they aren't there and that they don't have to be dealt with. Just because they have a different view than you, or won't do what you want doesn't make them stupid.
I mean I'd really like to spend about a million dollars upgrading labs in our department. That would be enough for all the top of the line hardware, software, desks, presentation equipment, etc that I'd like to have. However my boss would not be stupid for telling me no if I asked. Would it improve the education of our students? No question, and that is our prime goal here, it would be our product if we were a business. However it's not at all cost effective, nor within the amount of money available to us. Each year our group requests several hundred thousands of dollars for upgrades, and we never get near that much. However, we don't cry about management not supporting us. They want to know what we'd like, and we tell them. They weigh that, and decide based off of our resources what we can afford to get.
It's valuable to know when to leave a company but "when you work in a cube" and "when you and your boss disagree" aren't valid times. Also, when you are new to the market, espically wiht no work experience, consider lower pay. I'm ot saying lowball yourself, but look at what's offered. Often people who hire newbies for insane saliries are doing so because their expecations are unrealistic, much like yours. Realise that you aren't worth a ton and find someone who understands that. If you find a good place, you'll be given realistic tasks to your skills, chances to learn and grow, and people who know what's going on to guide you.
Company in trouble (Score:5, Funny)
* Paying you in pizza and food stamps
* Managers being overly nice to everyone in meetings while looking very nervous
* 'Minor unexplained troubles' when pay fails to make it to the bank on time
* Large men standing at the doors of the company in pinstripe suits telling everyone to go home for the day
* Leaving the office late in the evening, seeing the company accountant loading what seems to be company property into the back of his SUV
* The CIO borrowing lunch money from you
* Sudden and unexplained 'asset stocktake' undertaken by little men you've never seen in the company before, calling themselves 'administrators'.
* You get an e-mail alert from the stock exchange warning you that your company has announced that it has been placed into liquidation.
Cubicles (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know if that's true. I know very smart people making decent money who work in them. The problem with this advice:
1. it disregards smaller companies who can't afford to give its engineers offices. That job you turn down for making you work on folding tables could be the next microsoft (or google or whatever). Find a job you enjoy and that lets you live comfortably in your lifestyle.
2. engineers who aren't that valuable to a company will find it hard to get a job in an office. I know what you are thninking: that's exactly the point of not working in a cubicle. The unfortunate truth is many people, straight out of college, are simply not competent enough to get their dream job.
3. your first job is often not your last. Think of it as experience for when you are looking for a better job (or promotion). Yeah, cubicles suck, but if you work hard you won't be there for long.
Cubes (Score:5, Insightful)
Huh. I work at one successful company with plenty o' cubes, my girlfriend at a very successful company where practically no one below VP has an office. So, there's probably something more going on here.
First off, a small company, or a startup, has a hell of lot better things to do with its money than build offices for its employees. If it's not demonstrably benefiting the customer, it's not worth the investment.
Second, yes, cubes do allow more noise in, and yes, it can sometimes be a problem. But the root cause is usually not the absence of a door and ceiling: it's the lack of self-discipline that causes some folks to holler back and forth over cube walls, and it's the lack of an ability to focus that causes some folks to be distracted by any conversation in earshot. As engineers, we shouldn't be paid big bucks just because we can crank out good software under ideal working conditions. We should be able to do quality work under less than ideal conditions, and we should have enough discipline to not create those conditions for others.
Now, if your company doesn't recognize that excessive noise is a distraction and a productivity killer, then that might be a good reason to leave. But at the end of the day, demanding complete quiet and isolation is a prima donna attitude. Learning to filter out minor distractions is achievable, and greatly increases the range of places you'll be able to be productive in. That will only help you in the long run.
He's not in a position to offer career advice. (Score:5, Insightful)
Welcome to reality... (Score:5, Insightful)
At all times you should have 20+ people you could call to have a resume on the right desk the next day. Network (the people kind). Then network more.
You are in a place where job turnover is worse then at McDonalds. Outsourcing, cutbacks, takeovers by another company, etc. Your job is about as safe as a house below sea level in New Orleans - you WILL lose it, just a matter of time.
So plan ahead.
would you like some cheese with your WHINE? (Score:5, Insightful)
He's complaining about cubicles??? I recall one time a client (the president and the head of technology) came to visit us and they commented that it's too quiet in the office. They said that they wanted to hear and see people talking, discussing, and creating new ideas, etc. Sorry, kid, but you don't get a shiny office straight out of college, or even ever in life. He's got his expectations way, way, way too high. (I wonder if this carries over in his interpersonal relationships, or not, with the fairer sex.)
And yes, management is dumb in some areas, but really, really, really smart in the one area that counts - longevity. If a project fails, management doesn't get the can. They find the "problem" in I.T. and fire them. They can always shift the blame, pass the buck, and fudge the bottom line. The question to ask is how can you stay on managements' good side? Time to put your pride aside and learn how to suck up.
Personal growth is something you do on your own time not on company's time. They ain't paying ya to discover your inner calling.
Compensation & Overtime has been ruled null & void by the the greater supply of IT people. We are interchangeable. If you don't like and tell that to management they'll find a replacement for you, not pay you more. Every programmer thinks he's the hot shit. Don't let that get to your head. You're not.
I think this kid needs to growing up to do. It's funny because the older guys at the office just smile when I complain. It's the "been there, done that" experience that you learn as you grow older.
Re:would you like some cheese with your WHINE? (Score:3, Insightful)
Possibly. But, as an "older" guy I think it's better to keep trying to improve your life rather than just let it beat you down until you accept whatever slop they want to put on your plate. I'm all for checking the ego at the door, but this time I'm with the "kid." If we didn't push for things that we wanted or felt would be better for us we might as well live in some feudal society so
Re:would you like some cheese with your WHINE? (Score:5, Insightful)
Who really needs to "grow up", I wonder-those who know what they are worth and are not afraid to shoot for it, or those who constantly are telling them to "grow up" and accept mediocrity?
If that's "growing up" for you...well then, I'm sure thankful that I (apparently) never have.
Re:would you like some cheese with your WHINE? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:would you like some cheese with your WHINE? (Score:3, Insightful)
If they allow you to make your own decisions on details, fine. Unfortunately, managers who make uninformed decisions about minor details D
Here are my tips (Score:5, Informative)
When to start looking for a new job
1) You notice that the best engineers are systematically leaving the company
- They are leaving for a reason. Maybe it's bad management, maybe it's bad pay. Whatever it is, you don't want it either.
2) You are forced to take a pay cut
- If you take a pay cut, take it when switching jobs. Your salary at a company should always be increasing, and never decreasing.
3) The coffee delivery man stops refilling your coffee machines
- Amenities getting cut in a budget crisis are one of the signs that further budget cuts are on the way.
4) The network gets locked down
- Some companies will lock down the network in an effort to eliminate wasted time. It leads to bitterness among the employees and rarely works out the way the management wants it to.
5) The company get-togethers become more frequent, but less extravagant
- HR is one of the first departments to know when things are going down the tubes. They respond by trying to raise morale with fun company get-togethers, but with a limited budget these get-togethers are less banquet celebrations and more confused standing around a punch bowl in the lunch room.
6) The CEO position has changed hands twice in one year
- It is not uncommon that a CEO will quit after a certain amount of time at the top. It is a bad sign, though, when a CEO can't last a year. Something is wrong with the business and he is getting out while the getting is good. You should follow his lead.
7) The CFO position has changed hands twice in one year
- CFOs are relatively harmless glorified accountants. Except when it comes to budgetary issues. If a CEO can't keep CFOs around, it is because they don't want to work for your CEO. Maybe you shouldn't either.
8) Your company announces a Brand New Direction
- Companies can't just change their direction. Every move should be calculated and based on the strengths of the company. If your company designs software to run banking systems, be wary when the CEO declares that the company will begin work on medical systems.
9) The atmosphere is acrid
- In a company where things are going well, there is usually a very strong atmosphere of comraderie. When things are going bad, or people are overstressed, that atmosphere turns sour. This cascades from the upper levels of management on down, so be aware when your coworkers stop being friendly.
10) The company opens a "research center" or "development center" in an impoverished country
- Companies have found that they can increase headcount by hiring low-cost engineers in impoverished countries like India. They will typically declare the foreign site as a development center to handle development overflow from the main office, and that no current employee will be let go (so relax, because you're safe). This seems to be okay until you notice that headcount in the local office is decreasing because the employees that are leaving aren't being replaced. Brain drain at any company is a serious issue, and one that is directly caused by this type of off shoring.
Re:Here are my tips (Score:3, Funny)
- Amenities getting cut in a budget crisis are one of the signs that further budget cuts are on the way.
Amen. When a previous employer announced that there would be no more coffee bread on fridays (to save a tiny bit of money and to underline the seriousness of the condition the company was in) my first reaction was to walk over to the payrolls office to cash in the overtime debt. Turns out that most people reacted the same and as a result the
Re:Here are my tips (Score:3, Insightful)
The voice of authority? (Score:3, Interesting)
And it shows. Take advice number one: "don't work in a cubicle". You'll be looking a long time for a job that comes with its own office. Most corporations, especially, make sure that offices only go to managers above a certain rank. That's just how it is.
On the matter at hand, though, my advice to anyone wondering if they should quit is this: quit if going to work makes you feel sick to your stomach every day, and even then, only if you have a choice. If you have a mortgage or dependents, find another job *first*.
Oh, yeah, and one last piece of advice: it's called "work", not "happy fun playtime". Most jobs suck. Come to terms with that, and you'll be a man, my son.
Easy really (Score:4)
1. Not getting the promotion you felt you deserved.
2. Being stuck using older technologies.
3. Having so little work to do that you become a slashdot "obsessive-compulsive reloader"
Oh My... (Score:4, Insightful)
A) This was your fisrt job. If you truly feel you can judge everything about the working world from your first job, you're shallow, incompetent and pathetic.
B) If you think succesful companies don't have cubicles, you're in for a very rude awakening when you get jobs #2 and #3, etc.
C) You were working for a startup. You should have demanded a very lucrative stock package. Most startups (and I really need to stress most--ask the SBA) fail! That's a risk you take and the stock package is the payoff if the comapny succeeds.
D)
Hey Chris, if you're expetations are this high for your first job, I pity you. You've got a long way to go and a great many things to learn.
--James
What a doofus (Score:4, Insightful)
As far as I'm concerned, since he put NO effort into looking for a job, researching companies and talking to people about the company, he has little right to complain about the way things turned out.
There are plenty of students in their senior years who put some effort into their job hunts. Depending on your school, you may have a quality Career Services department that can be a lot of help. Or they may be idiots who don't know a thing about it.
If he got a job by doing nothing and waiting for a phone call, he should thank his guardian angel that he had the opportunity to work for a year.
Hold the phone! (Score:5, Funny)
Signs you're going to get fired (Score:3, Funny)
1) 6 months before leaving: Snack room no longer contains free snacks. Just a water cooler.
2) 3 months before leaving: Water cooler no longer contains water, janitor stops coming frequently, VP takes a "sabbatical."
3) 1 month before leaving: Secretary is now cleaning the toilet and answering the phone; more employees go on "sabbatical," storage boxes begin to appear in my office.
4) 2 weeks before leaving: Secretary is now on "sabbatical;" bathroom is getting funky; I am now replacing the urinal cakes out of good will; my office is now doubling as a storage facility, "why is the DEA at our office?"
5) 1 week before leaving: "where is the CEO?"
6) Day I leave: I have been asked to go on "unpaid sabbatical"
7) 2 years after starting my unpaid sabbatical: I have yet to be called back to work.
true story... urinal mints and all
good one! (Score:3, Funny)
Loyalty to a company? (Score:3, Informative)
The thing about loyalty (as well as trust, respect, etc etc) is that it should be earned. We all know the expression 'command respect' - what a load of nonsense. You can't order people to respect you, you have to earn it by giving respect - being worthy of respect or 'respectable' if you like. The same goes for loyalty: it has to be earned. Is the company loyal to you? No? Then you don't owe them any loyalty beyond what the contract says you are paid for.
Some have voiced the opinion that (most) companies display the characteristics of a psychopath: they will shamelessly and without remorse manipulate and exploit their customers and employees, and they will dump you when you no longer seem to be of use.
Re:Loyalty to a company? (Score:4, Insightful)
I learned long ago that corporate loyalty is an outdated concept because companies are no longer loyal to their employees.
The expression about "commanding respect" does not mean that someone demands respect without earning it, but rather someone that has earned and controls respect.
Example: Linus commands the respect of the open source software community.
Cubicles? (Score:5, Informative)
A Huge Stretch (Score:3, Interesting)
If you won't work anywhere that doesn't give an office, it'll be a rough ride with plenty of missed opportunity. I've never worked for a company that gives everyone their own office. The closest I've come to having my own office was a shared office with 3 of us, but that company only had 4 employees and 2 rooms, one office was the boss's, the other was ours. Everywhere else I've worked, it's always cubicles. In most companies I've worked at, no one below the 2nd tier of managers got their own office. Getting an office is a comfort and convenience issue, we make do with what we have. My girlfriend works for one of the most prominent local software companies, there's 2 offices, one for the boss, one for the manager. The other 20 employees have cubicles.
The article is okay, but everyone and their dog has advice on bad job warning signs. 20 years from now, your insight is going to be a lot more focused, and these reasons to think the company is doomed won't be as astute an observation as you think. The same things you list as warning signs to get out are also the same things I've seen in numerous successful companies, and they weren't signs of impending doom, they were signs of business-as-usual.
warning signs (Score:3, Interesting)
He discusses warning signs you should look for in your own work environment that point toward "Getting out".
Yes, it sounds like it's out of a fiction story, and in fact the first thing happens in the movie Office Space. But all three happened in one of the companies I worked for, before laying off a bunch of people.
What you SHOULD look for (Score:4, Interesting)
Cubicles? (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, he makes the point that you should have your own office, and while that would be ideal, does anyone know of a company that has the resources to give each of its programmers their own office? I've worked for two organizations, both had a history of success, and at both I've been put in a cube-like structure. It might be good to look out for places that will give you a lot of personal space, but really, how common is that?
Okay, but too many nits to pick (Score:3, Interesting)
The Access example given is a good strawman arguement, but in other cases the boss is there to say we don't need a fully fault tolerant tool to count to 10, where a for loop works just as well.
Learning is a two way street here. Sometimes things need to be done in a way which answers other questions to which you are not even aware of their existance. If your boss asks you to do it in a particual way, pehaps you should ask Why? and see if there is a need or reason from some other requirement that answers that.
Boss: I need application foo to do x, y, z(prime, delta, gamma...)
Me: Okay, sure. 6 Weeks.
Boss: 3 Days.
Me: !!?!?!
And while I did get the hell out of that job, I did learn that I was pushed to build tools quickly and design application that where able. Plus I learned another lession- build tool kits. In my current job (4 years and counting), I've built a huge took kit, everything from logging tools, to database handlers, to user sub-systems, and even a complete help system which will taken an entire directory and translate the word files into a help file.
Since 90% of the stuff we're developing is simplely made of problems that we've been solving since our first programming classes, having these toolkits makes life so much easier and less stressful, especially when you do have those insane deadline bosses.
If the company is willing to pay for your classes, great, if not, save and pay for your own.
Overtime is part of the deal when being a full time salary employee- sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
I agree with the final thoughts- I will add that figure out what makes you happy, and look for companies that offer things that are close to your goals and then try to get into those companies- and if that means you're going to have to wait a few years for an opening, so be it.
The bathroom test (Score:3, Informative)
Are the bathrooms kept clean and stocked?
Employers who don't care about their employees usually don't care about the employees environment. The employee bathrooms are pig styes.
Some other tips I picked up through experience:
Larger businesses and corporations usually have janitorial services so for them the "Bathroom Test" doesn't apply. In that situation the best way to evaluate the corporate environment is to talk with the in-house coders, if any, or other employees. If their remarks suggesst managers whose behavior indicates that they are graduates of the Atilla The Hun School of Management then its time to investigate other opportunities. Paper clip counting is a dead give-away.
If the PCs and other hardware are antiquated or poorly maintained its time to look elsewhere.
If most of the employees are recent hires themselves but the company has been around for a while then its time to look elsewhere.
If they want you to punch a clock then look elsewhere.
If they want you will be "salaried" instead of you billing them and there is no cap on the hours you'll be working then look elsewhere.
Which leads to: If they want you to violate one or more of the 20 or so IRS rules that determine if you are an independent consultant or an employee then look elsewhere.
If they are paying you out of a "special" fund then look elsewhere.
If they want you to code two sets of book, one for the IRS and one "just to give them a bottom line" then look elsewhere.
If the secretary confides in you that the boss is running a prostitution ring on the side, and those bobcats from California have cocain welded into the 4X4 bucket support beams, you'd better be looking elsewhere.
If the owner is a business partner with the local IRS agent then you'd better look elsewhere.
If employers don't respect the law then they won't respect the employees or the consultant.
If employers don't respect their employees they won't respect the consultants they hire.
Inexperienced author = bad advice (Score:5, Informative)
He rambles on with the usual "the boss doesn't take my genius advice" garbage too. It's not surprising and I certainly had my complaints about how they did things at the company I was laid off from a year out of college. However, that's how things are. Your goal should be getting in to a company where the higher-ups make good decisions so you don't HAVE to feel like everyone is stupider than you. I think a lot of times it's a corporate culture issue and you need to find a place which does things the same way you would do them. It doesn't necessarily mean that a company is bad just because everything isn't done the way you want it. The higher ups are the higher ups and they are going to do things they way they want to do them whether you agree with them or not. If the company is doing stupid things, I would agree that it could be a warning sign, but this dude frames it as though his junior level advice is supposed to matter. It's good to have a boss that listens to everyone, but sometimes you do not understand all the factors involved.
One of the most important things I think you learn working for companies in offices your first couple years out is office and company politics. There are SO many factors that go into decision making beyond what is technically important. Sometimes those other factors result in bad technical implementation, but a lot of times those other factors are just the reality of doing business and you need to accept them and work with them rather than chafing against them with the "I'm a genius" attitude the author takes. You as the junior level employee are not always privy to all the information which goes in to making a decision.
Certainly, there are bad managers and bad companies out there, but I think this dude is just not framing his advice in the right way. He comes off as the bitter, smarter than you tech worker who just got laid off. I think his attitude is part of the learning process, but I also think that he is giving bad advice to people who may be in a similar situation. He's making it out as if you're going to find a utopian place to work in your first couple years out: not going to happen for most people. I certainly don't encourage anyone to stay somewhere they're not happy, but you need to think about the balance of experience you're getting and what you're going to do in the future. If you keep quitting jobs because they're not treating you like a king, you will never, ever get a job you really like. When you're on the bottom rung sometimes you need to suck it up and put in your time. A lot of times, as you get more experience, things will start to make more sense to you.
I don't mean to come off as the jaded gray cubeland dweller. I certainly want to change certain things where I work and I am not exactly a conformist on any level. However, there are things you learn with experience that you just don't learn any other way. Now, with a couple years under my belt, I am just starting to understand why things are done the way they are. I am fortunate to be at a company which I think makes really excellent policies, in general, and being here it's easy to see that there are things I don't understand which actually result in a network that works pretty well. Coming to understand those factors is what you learn by sticking it out and not demanding the corner office right away.
I wish I had my cubical back.... (Score:3, Funny)
We Are All Mercenaries (Score:4, Informative)
When do you quit? As many here have noted, when that first round of layoffs is announced, when the perks and benefits start being trimmed, when it is painfully clear that the environment in which you work is more of a pean to mediocrity than a medium for productivity. I know, I know. I've just effectively nixed most companies (even some successful ones,) but the truth is that in the post-internet-resume world, IT workers are commodities (whether here or in India) and workplace egotism in a necessary evil.
We are all mercenaries. Don't do pensions, don't recite the latest company mantra, don't put up with abusive bosses, deadwood or pervasive mediocrity and don't bet on the come. Get your money when you can, stash it away (for you never know if you'll see it again) and retire on your terms.
Sour Grapes (Score:5, Interesting)
Cubicles are of the devil
Repeat after me: No, they're not. With proper soundproofing tiles on the ceiling and carpetted floors, you should be able to hear only your closest neighbors, and drowning them out is what comfortable headphones are for. If you can't get into the zone and do quality work, that's a personal issue, not your employer's. If you are having a hard enough go of it, you should talk to your manager about the problem.
Management is stupid
Generally, you can't get away from this. However, the cases that he cites as management incompetence really weren't necessarily icompetence at all. The author was upset because people like working the way they're most efficient. He seems to think that every new piece of technology makes people more efficient, which is a belief that is only held by recent college graduates. The problem with new technology is that it requires time to retrain your brain. And if the technology really is more efficient (and I would argue that few new languages truly have resulted in massive productivity increases), the question becomes: is the new technology so efficient that the retraining costs will be overcome by the productivity increase we'll get when everyone is running full speed? Usually, the answer is no, or at best "maybe." That's not something you want to stake the future of the company on, which is what you're doing at a small company.
Further, he was upset that after he studied for a few hours, management wasn't convinced that he was the right person to do a full reformat/install of their primary development server. WHAT A SHOCKER! If he were a real go-getter, he would've come in anyways, so he could've learned what the actual problems were going to be during the procedure. Then next time he was somewhere where this came up, he could've at least had cursory experience with the issue.
Personal Growth
I can't really disagree when he says companies should provide mechanisms for personal and professional growth. But what I can say is that when management is telling you that you are in the middle of the pack, look inward. If they're telling you that you're middle of the pack, you're probably actually closer to the bottom. If you feel you're working your hardest and management is telling you that you're not doing a great job, it might be that it's time for a career change.
Compensation isn't everything
That's true, but on the other hand, no one wants to be paid less than they're worth. The key here is that if you're at a job that makes you happy, you'll be more productive and a better employee. Consequently, you'll be recognized by your employer, and generally compensated more.
Final thoughts
It seems to me that what happened in this situation is the author was inexperienced and didn't realize what he'd gotten himself into. His job was a high-risk, high-reward situation. The company promised him ground-floor entry into what they thought was going to be a big hit. Turns out they weren't right, and he hadn't done his due diligence first. The theory with startups is that you churn and burn, and when you're done you can retire at 25. Of course, the reality is that 99% of startups fail and employees are left with nothing but the experience.
When interviewing for a position, the most important thing is to realize that you're interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. During the interview, when asked if you have any questions, ask if you can meet some of the other team members you'll be working with alone. Tell them you'd like to get a feel for the l
Re:Service unavailable (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Slashdotting In Action (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Slashdotted? (Score:5, Funny)
No, no. That's the article.
When you're the IT guy for a company and you visit the page and see...
Service Unavailable
...and about 50,000 references to 'slashdot.org' in your log files.
That's when you quit. Let some other schmuck take care of that mess of melted aluminum and plastic on the floor.
Dude ... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Oh, for Pete's sake... (Score:5, Insightful)
Care to elaborate what "top company" you work for, so that I don't apply there, given what the colleagues and the employee selection process appear to be like? Are you one of their "smartest Comp Sci" grads? Does your job require computer science skills, but not manners?
Re:Oh, for Pete's sake... (Score:5, Funny)
Was wondering when they would come by.
Re:Tech career? (Score:3, Informative)