Coping Strategies for Women in IT 648
Ian Lamont writes "Female workers are losing ground in the IT profession, reports Computerworld, citing statistics which show a sharp drop in the number of female CS grads since the 1980s, and a decline in the percentage of women in the IT profession since 2001. According to the article, causes include pervasive stereotypes and the locker-room atmosphere found in some IT shops — attitudes which some readers may recognize from the comments in a Slashdot thread last week. The IT professionals interviewed in the Computerworld article discuss a variety of strategies for coping. They range from trying to 'out-boy the boys' to watching what you say, as one Sun Microsystems executive describes:'It's not unusual to be the only woman at a meeting, she says, and because of that, there's often a tendency to remain silent unless you think you have something really remarkable to say. "As one member of a small group, you feel you have no right to be mediocre ... You're not just representing yourself; you're representing [females] with a capital F.'"
Differen trend locally, for what it's worth (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly though I don't really care if someone in the I/T field is male or female as long as they can do the job. The moment they prove to me to be an idiot, regardless of gender, I have to start looking at them with a more critical eye. And I have met women who treat that as if they were being singled out when they truly aren't.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:4, Interesting)
She then emigrated to the remote end of Ireland, where for 30 years or so she taught IT and computing a the local RTC (Regional Tech College.) She was telling me fairly recently that the level of casual sexism, and the air of intimidation and of it being a male domain meant that whereas 10 or 15 years ago there were actually more women/girls on the courses than men, it was now overwhelmingly male dominated. Of course she's done what she can to push that back and keep it open to women but... she's just retired.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Stereotypes (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm famous... I guess. (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, the irony (or technosocial fiasco if you prefer to look at it that way) of electronic talking Barbie back in 1994 was one of those memorable moments for me because I had just started teaching. Between "Math is hard" and "Let's go shopping" my students and I shared many classroom discussions over related topics (stereotyping, bias, patronizing comments, etc.).
Re:Different (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:4, Interesting)
Even though you jest here are you suggesting that we give women special privileges in the IT Business world? I certainly hope not, having tutored both males and females in the CS field for a couple of years I found that the females were particularly gifted compared to males in the same class.
I think a more important study here isn't looking at numbers but looking at how many females go into IT then drop out due to an uncomfortable atmosphere.
This argument has been debated way too much, I don't think there is an issue in IT any more than there is an issue in the military, autobody shops, Department Stores, Support staff members (secretaries), Janitors, or any other profession that is tilted one way or another. I think what pisses off the feminists here is that IT is a well paid field and people want a bite of the pie and if the only way to do that is to get special privelages then go for it.
Personally I loved talking to my female friends in college who started off in Engineering so they could get all the scholarships while they worked on there general courses. Or my american buddy who just happens to have a korean heritage, but raised by white americans from birth, in a white suburb, in middle class. Yet gets thousands of dollars to go to college as a minority.
The solution here is not to grant special privelages to individuals the solution is the education of people already in the field to accept the minorities.
It is just a peeve of my to hear about solutions to force people into fields rather than just letting things roll out the way they do, each gender has things they are better at, fact of life we will never be equal and thank goodness because if we were the world would crash. Each life is worth the same but all have different gifts. If you wish to debate this then go find a Nature vs Nuture forum.
so true (Score:2, Interesting)
I really didn't used to think that people noticed or cared things like that, but they do. I know that I stand out, so I'd rather stand out in a good way.
Re:Maybe Different, Maybe ?.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:My wife's experience (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm 38. I was raised to treat everybody equally. I don't trash talk others, and I paid the women who worked for me equally to the men. I gave nobody special favors, and I was nice to everybody.
But I've noticed that women just a few years older than me seemed incapable of believing that my statements in the last paragraph were true. They were mean, never smiled, treated me like a child, expected special treatment when their kids were sick, and so on. My policy was that if your kid was sick, you could take a sick day once a month. Any more than that, you had to make it up or lose the pay. I thought it was pretty generous, and it was the same for the guys too.
But what I got was a bunch of angry women treating me like I was Hitler, because they had to take care of their sick kids for more than a day a month. Excuse me, but I am not Hitler because you can't work it out with your husband that you *share* responsibility for the brat. If your husband makes you clean house, cook dinner, earn a paycheck, stay home with the kids, and suck his dick, it's not MY fault.
I'm not oppressing you, and it won't kill you to smile, tell jokes, and just quit scowling at every man in the office.
Is that what you meant?
Women paid more than men (Score:5, Interesting)
from: http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2007/08/double-standa
Here's some interesting news I read in the Star Tribune. In big cities, it seems that women's paychecks are outpacing men's:
The study by Queens College demographer Andrew A. Beveridge shows that all women from ages 21 to 30 living in New York City and working full time made 117 percent of men's wages, or a median wage of $35,653, and even more in Dallas, 120 percent. Nationwide, that group of women made much less: 89 percent of the average full-time pay for men. The findings were first reported in Gotham Gazette, published online by the Citizens Union Foundation.
The bad news for men?
Though the analysis showed women making strides, it also showed that men were in some ways moving backward. Among all men -- including those with college degrees -- real wages, adjusted for inflation, have declined since 1970. And among full-time workers with advanced degrees, wages for men increased only marginally even as they soared for women. Nationally, men's wages in general declined while women's remained the same.
The article quickly puts a kibosh on the good news for women by stating:
Typically, women have fallen further behind men in earnings as they get older. That is because some women stop working altogether, work only part time or encounter a glass ceiling in promotions and raises.
Well, if you stop working or work only part time, of course you don't make as much money--duh. What I find amusing or ridiculous--take your pick--is that many women's groups think women should make as much as men even if they have a family, don't work or work part-time. This is nothing but a sense of entitlement. And if women are single and working full time in the cities, then decide to have a family and move to small towns and work part-time or not at all, of course their wages will go down. That is called a trade-off, not necessarily discrimination.
If men's wages are declining, is this ever called discrimination? No, of couse not. Does anyone care about the reasons that men's wages declined while women's stayed the same? No, probably not. What I find interesting or perhaps hypocritical is that if women earn more than men, the reasons given are justified--smugly, women are seen as go-getters who have advanced degrees with the gumption to move to the big city to avoid the country bumpkins. But if men earn more, it is often because of rampant gender discrimation and not because of particular circumstances that would cause one to earn more such as working harder and longer hours, going where the opportunities are ripe etc. If women start to pull away from men in the earning department, I wonder if we will see any interest in helping men to increase their earnings? I won't hold my breath.
Re:That's not a troll, by the way... (Score:2, Interesting)
As a female IT Director... (Score:5, Interesting)
Two years ago, I decided to get my pointy-haired-boss on and go to business school. I elected to go to the only all-female MBA program in the country. Why? Because the biggest weakness I had was that I did not know how to deal with *women* in the work environment, and my boss was (and still is) a woman.
It's not easy to be in IT regardless of your gender. If you dislike foul language, well, good luck--I've thrown my share of f-bombs around when firmwide printing dies or the HVAC springs a leak and pours water through my servers and switches. Do you hate being around people who are angry? Heaven forbid you ever answer a support call. Do you like a complete night's sleep every night? Well, don't take a job that touches a data center or users who work in different time zones (don't have kids, either).
Because of IT's difficulty, we behave differently. We have a harder edge, but we laugh more as well. The jokes might be off-color or at someone's expense, but without the laugh, there's no pressure valve. Most of us drink fairly heavily, because we don't have much downtime and enjoy the relaxant effect of EtOH. Now, I don't know if we behave differently because we are predominantly male, or if we have different pressures, but most of us do behave this way.
Now add in technology's complexity, and you have a complicated situation. Most folks are in IT because we think (or at least used to think!) that technology is really cool. Not everyone does so. And, frankly, little boys are socialized to think technology=cool much more than little girls are. We are a product of our upbringing to some extent.
So how do I make IT work for women? For anyone? It's a question of alignment. If who you want to be aligns with your work environment, then stay. If something has to change and you can change it, do so and stay. If not, leave your job, or leave the industry, if you have the freedom to do so. If you do not have the freedom? Well, have a drink...
Truth of the matter... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:My coping strategy was... (Score:3, Interesting)
With the skills you listed, I'm not sure how you can escape that "geek chick" stereotype. So why wouldn't you want to have recognition for what you've done?
Yeah, welcome to the world. Life's a bitch, ain't it?
I'm a guy, and I feel like 24/7 I have to prove I have a right to be here, in my job. It's called "working". The only way out is to be in some sort of managerial position where you can easily take credit for everyone else's success and blame your own failures on everyone under you -- but I doubt any geek, female or otherwise, would want that position.
This is true, but it goes both ways.
What do you expect when you walk into the office? Are you anticipating being treated like an equal? Or are you sighing inwardly as you brace yourself for another day as a sex object?
There is a major social bias which says that women are the sex objects, the attractive ones, the ones who get to have potential mates come up and proposition them, so they can pick and choose. And you play your part -- you play it to the hilt.
So when you go in to work with an office full of men, you're already expecting them to mistreat you in some way. So then the slightest casual comment becomes offensive, and you act accordingly -- maybe even subconsciously. Other women you talk to are supportive, telling you things like "Don't let it get to you," or "Don't let them get away with treating you differently," just adding to this attitude that you don't even know you have.
Let's say someone tells a dirty joke. You instantly take offense, you assume it's about you. Or you take offense to it being a joke that's even slightly degrading to women (though the next one might be degrading to men).
So now they can't tell dirty jokes around you, because you'll get upset, angry, and maybe even cry "sexual harassment". And they realize they have to be extra careful around you -- they can't just treat you as one of the guys, because who knows when you'll take offense at something?
And then you wonder why they don't like to socialize with you. You wonder why, even if it's a work problem, they'd prefer to take it to each other than bring it up with you.
And it goes on and on and on. To them, you're a feminist nazi bitch. To you, they're a bunch of perverted, misogynistic pigs.
It's pointless to try to look at who's right, or who wins. Everyone loses. Maybe the guys could have handled it better, I don't know.
But it was just a dirty joke. Or it was just something like that, something that, even if it was offensive, you might have taken more lightly. I'm not trying to blame you for anything, I'm just trying to point out how in most environments, you actually can cope pretty well, without fighting all your life, without even making much of an effort.
It certainly takes more effort to be offended than to ignore it.
Point those behaviors out to me, personally, and I'll address them, personally.
I don't know, do you think it should be?
Actually, I imagine it is somewhat true, the way it is everywhere -- the hot gir
Re:Stereotypes (Score:5, Interesting)
Men and Women never have affairs in the workplace.
They follow the examples of our fine congressmen and senators.
And it helps that women never wear V-neck shirts that show off cleavage and then complain when we look at it. And they never wear shirts that expose their midriff either. And they never wear skirts slit up the side to mid-thigh. Guys of course wear revealing pants and those racy polo shirts (if not sheer dress shirts and jacket with tie).
And they never ogle that cute bodybuilder guy or talk about him at the coffee bar like he was an object- or at least they stop once a guy comes around the corner.
Because women are perfect and focused on work.
Women never get married and then suddenly quit a job as a low-level manager and guys do all the time because they want to be house husbands and raise the kids.
---
Yes it's a wonderful, wonderful world of unreality out there.
Re:Been there, seen that... (Score:4, Interesting)
Most women especially hate the on call part.
I.T. is not a fun job, lets face it if you are in any level of authority, you have lots of responsibility.
I spend half my time trying to avoid disasters by planning infrastructure, and the other half of my time going to school and climbing the academic latter, and I am 40 years old now.
I do not see this changing anytime soon.
When I was a CIO I was under huge gorilla sized amounts of stress, and as the technical leader for my organization everyone turned to me as the "answer guy".
That much attention and responsibility and dedication to ones job in all facets is not something the typical women likes to do.
I think this is a social issue though, not a genetic one.
Western society is trying to equalize that but it will be a couple more generations before women are born and are educated with the mindset required to really want to do I.T. work at the dame depth as males right now.
Not a bad thing, women just are more interested in contributing in different areas at the moment than in the scientific or technical areas.
Furthermore, I don't see it as a "shame" or a bad thing.
-Hack
Re:Not entirely (Score:3, Interesting)
Also, counter-intuitively, women perform better in naval submarine service than men. I don't remember the conclusions for why on that one.
Anyways, that's all tangential to your point.
I don't buy it (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think that the environment scares women enough to chose a different career path. I think the answer lies in a more cultural factor. Studies have proved that parents are unconsciously biased in the way they explained something to their kids. They emphasize the emotional aspect when talking to girls "Isn't it beautiful ? Wouldn't you like to have one ?" and the rational aspect when talking to boys "Isn't it beautiful ? Do you understand how it works ?". Making boys more technically inclined. In fact, when you study tastes of secondary school students, girls feel more uncomfortable with science than boys. I am sure most of us remember this trend. Girls are supposed to be more into literature.
You can not act as a colleague, you can act as a parent. Girls aren't naturally repelled by technology, they mainly are because their parents think this is how a normal girl behaves.
From a different tech industry (Score:2, Interesting)
We're not IT, though we have a few on staff for the IT part that's necessary of any corporation and particularly ours. We're a microchip design company. RFIC's and signal processors. Half if not more of the *designers* here are women. Granted they all started their careers in engineering in the 70's-80's but that doesn't change the fact that they all like their jobs and are very good at it.
My previous job was at another semiconductor company but had very few women engineers. In fact, all of the electrical guys were male. Only a couple of the mechanical engineers were female.
The difference between these two work environments is stark. At my previous job, we were a skeleton crew given unrealistic deadlines, impossible budgets and expected to perform miracles. Yes, at the end, when our system worked (and by work, I mean is flying in a bunch of airplanes without any reported failures), we all felt pride in a job well done and forgot about the nights in the lab trying to track down what was causing signal attenuation. Oh, and we had to manage our own Solaris design network. No IT support because the company's IT didn't "work with Linux".
At my current work environment, we have state-of-the-art tools, a full IT support team that maintains our Red Hat design network as well as our multi-million-dollar-per-seat EDA tools, a panel of experts of everything from logic design to VLSI, and, most importantly, a company policy that lets all the working moms (and dads) do 30hrs/wk if they wanted to at reduced pay.
I can't imagine work places like my current one are very numerous in the tech fields. This, I would imagine, is especially true of the IT field. Perhaps we shouldn't be worrying about the decline of women in IT but rather, why there isn't a decline of men in IT. Are we all truly that thick-headed?
Re:Different (Score:4, Interesting)
Wow, are you serious? I'd say it's probably one of the top 3 considerations for men when even _thinking_ about having a child. I'm not in a place where I'd want a child even remotely (24 with a competitive, fast-track job), but of course I've considered what the impact of having children would be on my career. Truth is, it would be disastrous, and I definitely wouldn't be able to continue on the track I'm on.
Graduate school? Right out. Working exceptionally long hours, traveling? Not unless I wanted to screw up my children as badly as everyone else in America seems happy to. I would say it is easily the #1 consideration against having children for me right now. I certainly have the money, the security, the opportunity, and the social pressure to start down that path, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what the effect of a child on a working father's career is.
Most women that I know, on the other hand (almost all of my friends are women) -- they are genuinely eager to leave the work force and have kids. They're not exclaiming "Oh no,I might miss out on this career opportunity if I have a kid," they're saying "ugh, work is terrible, I can't wait to get married and have babies." That last is almost an exact quote.
We're not so different, you and I!