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SecondLife Bans Unregistered In-World Banks 353

GuruBuckaroo writes "Virtual Ponzi schemes — pardon, "Banks" — have finally been given the boot by the policymakers at Linden Lab's Second Life. According to the company's latest blog post: 'As of January 22, 2008, it will be prohibited to offer interest or any direct return on an investment (whether in L$ or other currency) from any object, such as an ATM, located in Second Life, without proof of an applicable government registration statement or financial institution charter. We're implementing this policy after reviewing Resident complaints, banking activities, and the law, and we're doing it to protect our Residents and the integrity of our economy.'"
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SecondLife Bans Unregistered In-World Banks

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  • Virtual Trust? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by blueZhift ( 652272 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @04:08PM (#21973452) Homepage Journal
    The thing that I have trouble conceiving of is how people could trust these virtual banks/investment schemes in the first place, especially since there's real money involved. I find Second Life interesting, but like the internet, it's still a bit of the wild west. I barely trust my real world bank to do the right thing with my money, to say nothing of trusting some virtual bank.
  • Remember kids... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Bones3D_mac ( 324952 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @04:09PM (#21973470)
    The "virtual" in virtual worlds means it isn't real. Once you leave the bounds of the physical world here on earth, you're in uncharted waters. After that, you might as well be living in the old west where the only justice you get is the justice you take.

    The crooks may still wear black, but they pack all new weapons now.
  • by archen ( 447353 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @04:15PM (#21973572)
    It is however interesting how Second Life started out as this sort of free for all, and more and more it's starting to evolve a government out of necessity. There are many institutions that a person may think are not really needed by society, yet we see that online civilizations seem to reinvent the same things. Also interesting that this "government" has already stomped on people, and people already bitch about it. Seems like second life is getting too much like the first one.
  • by eebly ( 7752 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @04:21PM (#21973710)
    First, a minor point, banks don't issue money (they used to but that creates undesireable barriers to trade) and thus making banks adhere to the gold standard is meaningless. Governments make currency standards.

    Second, gold doesn't have intrinsic value at all. The value of gold fluctuates all the time. All the gold standard did was fix the price of gold. While the gold standard was tenable for a time it didn't work in the long run because it's not stable. Your money supply is dependent on your gold supply which in turn limits your economy. You can't have more dollars than your fixed ratio to gold. New discoveries of gold can also create deflationary shocks.

    There's nothing special about money at all. It's a medium of exchange. It has what value we agree it has, no matter if the medium is a piece of paper or a string of bits or a hunk of metal.
  • by FromTheAir ( 938543 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @04:25PM (#21973772) Homepage
    Interest should be replaced with some sort of dividend return. Or nothing, if you pay back something you get to borrow more interest free. So you can only borrow a little bit starting out building up reputation.

    When borrowing we are really making a commitment to produce goods or services in the future. Interest can be looked at as a tax on participating in the economic system or what they charge us (at least at the first tier) for the use of the monetary system they maintain.

    Banks do several things. Track transactions, create GL entries to produce new money out of nothing, attempt to recover bad debt, asses and evaluate risk.

    For doing these few things they collectively generated over, the last 3 years over a trillion dollars in NET profit.

    The current cost or charge for contributing to the economic system in the US is about 6% of each dollar. Obviously the real cost is less than half a percent thanks to technology.

    It is time for the public to own the monetary system and pay third parties to provide the above services taking advantage of technology.

    Obviously we don't really need bank buildings anymore, just some data centers, and home PC's to support the whole system.

    Thanks to the Internet and Technology the worlds Monetary and Financial systems are outdated and no longer needed so we don't need to pay 6% of the wealth we generate to the bankers.

    More like .5% should be enough to support our Monetary system.

  • Re:Virtual Trust? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DrXym ( 126579 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @04:33PM (#21973910)
    The thing that I have trouble conceiving of is how people could trust these virtual banks/investment schemes in the first place, especially since there's real money involved.

    There's a simple answer to that. People are stupid. They think that money grows on trees and all they have to do is give it to some virtual "bank" and they'll enjoy some staggering rate of return. In truth it is the idiots who follow on behind who are paying the interest for the ones in front.

    I expect SL has become very popular with con men for this reason. Wouldn't surprise me at all if all sorts of ponzi schemes, pyramid scams, matrix scams, and just plain old fashioned fraud happen every day on SL because there is so little regulation and a lot of gullible people within easy reach.

  • by LilGuy ( 150110 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @05:00PM (#21974372)
    The only intrinsic value it has is it's perceived rarity and the fact that you can't just pull it out of thin air. There is no way anyone can go back to the gold standard with the WTO in existence, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a way to make the currency system actually work.

    The way it's set up now every country in the world is gunning for bankruptcy in the end. You can't sustain a system of constant debt growth forever. We need to find something to base money on that isn't a commodity controlled by the few and also isn't debt. Or we can just continue to fight wars and reforming nations and start over every time the debt ceiling is too high.

    In regards to the article, I find it hilarious that you can't even run a virtual bank without a real life charter. That just slays me. I think the line between virtual and real just blurred beyond recognition.
  • by gnuman99 ( 746007 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @05:15PM (#21974610)
    Not in EVE. Not in EVE.

    As long as you don't exploit game bugs to exploit others, you are ok.
  • by cadeon ( 977561 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @05:22PM (#21974746)
    In all cases, charging interest on money or property lended causes problems. Many economists attribute the existence of interest as the sole cause of inflation, and inflation causes all kinds of other issues. It's a slippery slope to financial ruin for an entire economy, and SecondLife was headed that way. Glad to see them do something about it before many more people lost their money.

    I'm not a very religious person, but even the bible states that charging interest is akin to theft. It's simply making money you didn't make, which just isn't good.
  • by asuffield ( 111848 ) <asuffield@suffields.me.uk> on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @05:28PM (#21974860)

    First, a minor point, banks don't issue money (they used to but that creates undesireable barriers to trade) and thus making banks adhere to the gold standard is meaningless. Governments make currency standards.


    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279 [google.com]

    Watch it. Learn. Our system of currency is based on nothing more than a pile of lies and a mechanism for transferring wealth into the hands of the wealthy. It is also based on perpetually accelerating the rate of growth, which is so laughably unsustainable that it's amazing it has lasted this long.
  • by bonkeydcow ( 1186443 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @05:32PM (#21974932)
    no offense but your on crack. Without interest there would be no loans. You would have to save up the money for everything before you bought it. The world runs on credit and therefore, interest. And for your bible reading... read the story of the guy who gives money to his workers while he is away. When one of the workers returns the money on the mans return is chastised for not having gained any interest.
  • by scorp1us ( 235526 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @05:54PM (#21975314) Journal
    And you do it with fake money.

    In the olden days "dollar bills" wire actually silver or gold certificates. You could trade these paper certificates for the actual gold or silver. Prior to this, you'd carry it in a coin purse. But the paper money while more subject to wear, was lighter and literally more flexible and therefore comfortable. A US Dollar was based off the Spanish dollar and was settled on 371.25 grains of .999 fine silver officially by the government, with a gold standard following.

    This limited inflation (the only way to deflate the currency was to send bankers to the hills to mine metals) and was real value.

    Then in 1913 two things happened: we got the Federal Reserve and the 16th amendment. These two institutions, both once non-existent, rule the country today. With the creation of the FR the US borrowed money from the FR ]]at interest[[ setting up a positive feedback loop of inflation. In order to do this they also had to decouple the money from the metal backing, which was completed in 197[2?] under Richard Nixon. If you want to see real inflation, it is measured in the M3 statistic, which the Fed stopped publishing recently. But you can see it here [shadowstats.com] Instead of talking inflation, the Fed tries to talk CPI - which is an aggregate from several industries. Notably absent is the mortgage market, which ask anyone, its costs have doubled in the the past 5 years. But the CPI leaves this out, and only includes rents, which have stayed disproportionately low because of all the house seekers.

    Today the paper you move about is as valuable as those bits in the computer. If the word "certificate" appeared on them it would be completely a different situation. You could go to the bank and get metal, whose value wouldn't ever go down. But now, you can't expect to leave $30,000 in the bank and have the same buying power 10 years later. Over the last 90 years, the dollar has fallen to just $0.04 of its original value, as valued by the silver market.

    But getting back on topic - any kind of calamity that shakes the confidence of Americans will affect the buying power of the dollar. Not a new vein of gold, not a run on banks, not a stock market crash. The only absolute value is cold hard cash. And by cold and hard I mean a metal.

    --Epilogue--

    I often wonder what all this means int he grand scheme. If you have money, this is an issue. If you have debt, it is actually a good thing because debts are paid off with future, depreciated money, and they take that money at face value. (Which an old bill is rarely worth.) The key here is to have one foot in both areas: pay off debts with inflating currency and have your investments in metals-backed currency.

    There has been a movement to inflation-proof currency, known as the Liberty dollar. These were negotiable certificates which actually were redeemable for metal. The Federal Reserve shut it down and seized all the silver, because this, while completely legal, are the one thing a person can do to retain control and live outside the system. If it ever got popular (and I believe it would, particularly in times of inflation) the Federal Reserve would have competition that couldn't be influenced by it. The important thing to note is that it would be no different of a situation than America, pre-1913.

    Finally, note that the Federal Reserve is not Federal (it is private) nor is it a Reserve (it holds nothing - the gold it once held is unaccounted for.) The only worse-named entity is Social Security.
  • by superwiz ( 655733 ) on Wednesday January 09, 2008 @09:10PM (#21978014) Journal

    Sure, a check (or a privately-issued banknote) is a privately-issued form of promise-backed currency allegedly backed, in the usual case, by some form of government-issued currency in the banks hands (either in a specific account or the banks general reserve.) To argue against promise-backed currencies and then argue for using checks is to argue incoherently -- a check or banknote is promise-backed.

    I am sorry, but that's simply incorrect. A check is a draft. As described by the UCC article 3, it is an order to pay. That's why all checks have the words "pay to the order of" on them. A check is a written instruction to a storage institution (ie, bank) to pay (or transfer ownership) of what you store with them. It is distinctly different from as a promise (such as IOU) in that you cannot be sued for writing a check. While it is against certain laws to write "bad" checks, the act of writing a check itself does not create a liability to the person to whom the check is written. No promise is made there. If you make a promise (as with an IOU), you do create a liability -- you can be sued for not fulfilling the promise. As for the claim that a check has to be drawn against a government-backed currency, that's pure fantasy. It is nothing but an order (a command) to pay to the presenter (or to the person whose name is written on the check).

    You are correct that bank notes are in fact notes (ie, promises). But I wasn't arguing for bank notes. I was saying that some banks may be trusted enough that the notes that they issue will become "as good as gold" as the expression goes. But would only be because they have the reputation of paying out the gold upon presenting of the notes. The first time they fail to pay, their promise would become worthless. Bank notes would be rated in much the same way as the bonds are currently rated -- by their trustworthiness.

    But since you are advocating undoing all those layers of solutions and going back to commodity currency.

    Not all those layers were solutions. Some did occur naturally to fulfill market-place needs, but some were not. Fiat currency did not solve any problem other than the government's need to issue as much money as they saw fit. That's bona fide debasement.

    When I say that these issues have been resolved, I'm referring to the fact that the argument for the central bank (as proposed by Hamilton) have been thoroughly reviewed and consequently rejected by the writers of the Constitution. The banking system was perfected about fifty to a hundred years prior to the American Revolution. It was perfected in England where the practice of writing checks to banks and using bearer checks as currency started. Fiat currency is based on trust and trust is not something that can be demanded (as is the case with anything dictated by law). Trust is only something that results from people's own judgments. In the absence of trust, the exchange must involve something that has unquestionable value. The fungible nature of commodities makes them perfect as a medium for such exchange.
  • by DragonWriter ( 970822 ) on Thursday January 10, 2008 @03:17AM (#21980884)

    I am sorry, but that's simply incorrect. A check is a draft. As described by the UCC article 3, it is an order to pay.


    A check is an order to the bank. To the recipient, it is a promise that there are sufficient funds in the account to cover the draft (and, on top of that, that the order will not be cancelled before the draft is presented through a separate communication with the bank), a promise which is, all too frequently, false; which is why, even with all the modern infrastructure to increase trust by allowing some degree of verification of such promises, checks have fallen out of favor for transactions where there are practical alternatives.

    It is distinctly different from as a promise (such as IOU) in that you cannot be sued for writing a check.


    You can't be sued for issuing an IOU either. You can be sued for not paying on an IOU, just as you can be sued for not having the funds for a check.

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