CS Degrees Low in 2007 But Bouncing Back 265
An anonymous reader writes "The number of undergraduate computer science degrees awarded last year hit a new low with the Class of 2007. The degrees awarded, 8,000, as tracked by the Computing Research Association, is only half of what it was five years ago. In 2003-04 — the high point of this decade — 14,185 students were awarded bachelors degrees in computer science from the 170 PhD granting universities tracked by the CRA. That said, after a decade of severe declines, the number of students at top universities declaring themselves as computer science majors is finally seeing an increase. Though it's only a small increase, it's an increase nonetheless. Experts attribute the shift to changes in job market, and also to changes in curriculum and the marketing of comp sci programs."
Re:Frankly.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, though; when I look through my economics courses, I wonder how half of the people managed to get in to the university. I also wonder how half of the people left (1/4 of the total, for those of you who are in the 1/2 that shouldn't be in the University) are in the Senior level courses. Then I pay attention to what the professor is saying and realize that what these courses cover is rediculously easy. For the first exam this semester for my senior-level econ course, I studied approx. 2-3 hours. I got 92%. About 10% of the class scored just as well as I did or better. In my senior-level econ course last semester, I studied more (probably ~5-10 hours per exam) and got ~73% for each exam, which curved to be a comfortable A (I don't recall anyone getting more than 80% on a single exam, the highest score I recall was a 78), which again put me in the top 10%. The only difference between these two courses was that one had about 25 people in it, the other has about 120. Neither involves any significant math skills; the most advanced math I've had to use was partial derivatives for an intermediate micro course.
Re:Computer Science in HS (Score:2, Interesting)
While there is far more to CS than programming, being comfortable in operating a computer and basic programming should be pre-requisites. Without these fundamental skills, jumping into a CS program is akin to jumping into a Math degree without high school math. In order to prepare students for success in CS, the students need to be exposed to the basic concepts and skills used in that field. This is no different than any other subject.
I think that the reason that this has been allowed to go on for so long is because CS is still considered new and it's fairly expensive. Teachers and administrators don't understand the value of making computer courses available and, if they do, they often can't afford to outfit and maintain a lab of PCs. Staffing could also be a major issue; how many teachers know enough about programming to teach it?
I know that the CS program at my uni was allowed to have a dropout rate that was much higher than the other programs; they knew that the students coming out of high school were ill prepared and let them figure it out the hard way. If other schools are still having this failure rate, it means the issue hasn't been addressed.
Big Business + Computer Skills = $$$ (Score:3, Interesting)
I know there's always talk about programming jobs being outsourced. Get a degree in business and maybe minor in CS (or vice versa) and you will be an extremely marketable person. We hired on a contract programmer a couple years ago into our group. He has the same responsibilities as the rest of us (although his specific area isn't as difficult as others) and he also programs many small applications for us to make the tedious work managable.
Prove that you can work with MS Access or MS Excel or write small applications and you will become an office hero.
I've done pretty well for myself since graduating almost 4 years ago, but if I had to do it over again I would've taken some CS related classes.
Re:Frankly.... (Score:3, Interesting)
However, that's just a phenomenon from the last five years or so (when computers started to be cheap and graphical user interfaces were stable). I say five years, because Windows 95 came out in (duh) late 1995 and people needed to grew up with it to think "they could operate a computer". Someone going to college in 1995, having computer experience would know the pre-95 days. I remember a girl (!) in my first year. She had never turned on a computer in her whole life, but was mathematically inclined and interested in computers. She graduated the same year I did (means: without failing) and she did that magna cum laude. That was possible back then. (It's just too bad, I never noticed that she had cast an eye on me...)
Now, I hear adults (+40yo) say their kids "understand computers" and I get batshit mad about that. They don't understand anything, their computers are infested with spyware, they don't understand the difference between RAM and harddisk, they just know how to install World of Warcraft and God help them if someone disabled Autorun. I've been a highschool "computer science" teacher. It's disheartening.
Interest in Web 2.0 vs Web 1.0 (Score:4, Interesting)
There might be new interest from the latest surge of robotics, but that's mainly done in Europe & once Dubya is gone, there won't be any more military robots h.e.r.e...
Silicon Valley is slow & stodgy about new territory. It's going to be Web scripts for a long time.
Re:My Advice To Those Thinking About It (Score:2, Interesting)
Which is why, I think, many smart folks pursue IT careers in a non-IT field. For example, I work in systems and programming, but I also happen to be a librarian.
(Which from an education standpoint, means I have an "advanced" degree that was about as challenging as my 8th-grade Social Studies curriculum.)
That extra 12-credits of school has enabled me to forge an interesting, reasonably well-paying and very stable career as a hybrid-librarian. Though there are more and more of us, getting a job in "library systems" is pretty easy and offers a lot well-rested nights in the LT. I am not worried about the bottom following out because my company went for broke and went to market with a doomed AJAX app.
Re:Frankly.... (Score:5, Interesting)
So much of the CS market is flooded with wantabes and posers that barely know how to use a computer, much less program or troubleshoot one. I recall working for a community college in 1990 in one of their computer labs, and people with BS, MBS, and PHDs in Computer Science went to the community college to learn what they missed in Four year college and I worked as a tutor and educational assistant for some of them. I also subbed for the debugger as she didn't know C, Pascal, BASIC, Assembly as well as I did and I got the hard to debug programs.
Businesses went from hiring programmers like me who do quality control built into design, towards hiring kids right out of college with no experience who can write programs "good enough" to work and get the job done even if it crashes their servers a dozen times a day. Microsoft certification doesn't work either as they earn it and learned the answers on the Internet and got certified anyway.
While I earned A's and B's, and eventually earned all A's and graduated with honors, a lot of these other CS majors barely graduated but know how to schmooze their way up the corporate ladder and bullshit their way into high paying jobs that they don't deserve.
I went back to college and took up Business Management, because I don't think there is a future in Computer Science anymore, most graduates don't take Computer Science seriously and are in it only for the money, plus a lot of computer jobs got offshored to India and China, and the government keeps increasing the cap on H1B Visa applications and foreigners can come to the USA and work for minimum wage in computer jobs, legally. Hard to compete with that.
Re:Completely agree (Score:3, Interesting)
It's what I've done, but I have yet to prove the concept. It'll be tested soon tho.
Re:Frankly.... (Score:4, Interesting)
We have lawyers aplently to deal with visas, but I had to give up on the idea of only hiring people who actually *liked* CS and programmed at home for fun. It sad, really. It sucks to work with people who got into CS "because my parents choes this career for me" (no joke), and don't really enjoy the work.
It's a scary sign for America that our graduate schools seem to almost exclusively educate foreigners. Of course, if those folks immigrate then it's all good, but with the crazy H1-B situation and high difficulty of actually becoming a citizen, we're *not* producing the next crop of highly educated American CS folks here.
Applied != Gone (Score:3, Interesting)
I was valedictorian of my undergraduate college. My time there wasn't challenging at all, and I often had to fill in the gaps my formal education left on my own. Following my graduation, I applied to several of the ivies - and some other good schools in my area - to do my Ph. D. I wanted a challenge. I was prepared to do a lot of work if it was required of me. I wanted to become the best researcher I could be, studying interesting problems under the best researchers in the field.
I was rejected from all of them (except Columbia, which would only accept me as an MS student in their engineering program, while I wanted to do scientific research). I am now in another easy school for my Ph. D., still not being challenged. I applied again after publishing some things and getting an MS after the first year of my Ph. D., with the same outcome. Since I can't imagine going through another Ph. D., my graduation from my current program is likely the endpoint of my formal education - and from start to finish, it has been inadequate, despite my wishes.
My point is that you presume that a choice always exists in the matter; that everyone who needs a challenge will receive one. Admission to a highly competitive school is not a sure thing, even with exceptional credentials, and there are many variables you cannot control in the process (I've heard that the existence of close ties between your professors and those in the school you're applying to is a particularly important one). Yes, perhaps I could have gotten in if I had decided to pursue my Ph. D. in, say, computer graphics, instead of the study of algorithms, or perhaps I could have gained admission to a competitive school on the other side of the country had I looked, but there's only so much you can ask someone to sacrifice when your dream schools are all right here, doing the work you want to do, and they won't take you.
That said, neither my BS or MS, nor my Ph. D. when I attain it, are worthless. The universities may not be prestigious and the degrees alone may not mean much, but what I've done while attaining them has given them worth beyond their stature.
Let me know when... (Score:3, Interesting)