Does It Suck To Be An Engineering Student? 971
Pickens writes "Aaron Rower has an interesting post on Wired with the "Top 5 Reasons it Sucks to be an Engineering Student" that includes awful textbooks, professors who are rarely encouraging, the dearth of quality counseling, and every assignment feels the same. Our favorite is that other disciplines have inflated grades. "Brilliant engineering students may earn surprisingly low grades while slackers in other departments score straight As for writing book reports and throwing together papers about their favorite zombie films," writes Rower. "Many of the brightest students may struggle while mediocre scholars can earn top scores." For many students, earning a degree in engineering is less than enjoyable and far from what they expected. If you want to complain about your education, this is your chance."
NO IT DOES NOT (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the author of the article... inorder for engineering to not suck, we should have inflated grades and beautiful textbooks (whatever that it). He says that the textbooks are awful because they are thick and black and white and contain long equations (i don't know if i should laugh or what).. His other reasons are more related to the school in which he is studying and not with engineering
Seriously
at least you're learning (Score:5, Insightful)
So lets see... (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder what the incomes of the soft majors that got all A's will look like compared to a good chemical/electrical/mechanical engineer.
hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Who cares? You're not competing against film majors for fellowships, scholarships, graduate programs and jobs. You're competing against other engineering majors. And honestly, the vast majority of engineering majors seem to have greatly exaggerated notions of their own brilliance; engineering profs do give out As, if you're not making them maybe you're not quite as smart as you think you are.
I think the only majors with a higher general opinion of themselves are philosophy majors.
in my experience... (Score:5, Insightful)
It was (Score:5, Insightful)
In my experience, engineering school isn't geared specifically for content. It's designed to teach you some basics (electronics, math, logic, assembly language in my case), and everything done above and beyond that was designed to teach you how to solve problems. I may not know how to build an amplifier anymore, but I do know how to build a circuit, simulate it, how to adjust properties, and develop an answer.
I think the same thing goes with Calculus - Everything you did in math was done to give you the 'aha' moment that occurs when you learn derrivatives. You suffered endlessly computing deltas manually, but then you learned what a derivative is, and all of a sudden your world changed. There are other ways to solve problems. And when you realized that, then your approach to math suddenly changed - it's not about slogging through a procedure to get the answer, but to look at problems and see new ways of solving them.
The importance of college isn't what you learn there. It's whether you learn HOW to learn.
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:5, Insightful)
wait until you get on your JOB. Engineering education works perfectly; it prepares you for the boredom ahead of you.
Re:at least you're learning (Score:4, Insightful)
Layne
It sucks to be an engineering student (Score:5, Insightful)
You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:4, Insightful)
You really think Math, Science and Engineering students can make better films? BS! Try it, please I dare you to. I paint and let me tell you that to get inspiration for a painting is hard. And please don't get me started on "how I could do that in five minutes." If you think like that then you actually don't understand art.
I graduated 15 years ago, and if there is one thing I have learned is that I wish engineering/math/science students were not so dammed arrogant!
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is not those people. The problem is that those people are able to coast to an amazing degree because the grading system favors the slackers who take those classes because they don't want to work.
So the real problem is twofold:
One, the truly excellent students aren't getting the sort of challenge that would allow them to hone their abilities to their limits.
Two, the quality of the whole discipline is being diluted by a bunch of crappy students doing mediocre work for a grade.
I witnessed this in liberal arts classes, I also witnessed it in some CS classes, where incompetent coders could pass the class based solely on the curve and their ability to parrot theory on the exams. Literally. I was in a class where a programming assignment's average grade was 7 out of 100.
This isn't high school (Score:5, Insightful)
No, that's not any kind of solution at all.
No one who has an opinion worth a damn will ever look at a Liberal Arts major with a 3.8 and think it's equivalent to a 3.8 in chemical engineering.
They're not the same, it's not high school, and you're not competing against the entire student body anymore.
Engineering school dichotomy (Score:3, Insightful)
Junior & senior years: kicks ass!
Re:Employement, post graduation? (Score:5, Insightful)
Until you realize that, historically anyways, higher education is *not* vocational training. Higher education is meant to do exactly that - educate, in any subject that might tickle the learner's interests. Vocational training belongs in trade school - and I bet most engineers have too big of an ego to go to the same school as the mechanics and the plumbers.
Disclaimer: I am an engineer, but I'm routinely frustrated with how our kind tend to think we're better than everyone else, simply because we have a starting salary higher than most other degrees (note that I said starting, this relationship doesn't hold as time goes on).
Re:hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect the point is: Are you happy with where you are, are you pleased with what you've accomplished and would you do it over again?
People spend far too much time comparing themselves to other people rather than looking after their own happiness. Keeping up with the Joneses isn't worth it.
Re:Language barrier (Score:5, Insightful)
I complained to my adviser I couldn't understand them, but he said that I should basically be more sympathetic since they probably
had a tough time understanding me as well. I was shocked by this; I'm the student... if I don't
understand what the prof is saying, I fail. Plus, I'm PAYING FOR THIS CLASS. A LOT!!
One of the things that always pissed me off about academia is the sense of entitlement the professors have.
Re:hate to break it to ya (Score:2, Insightful)
Every resume you send out is you marketing yourself.
The way you dress, speak, and present yourself at the interview is you marketing yourself.
Of those applying for a job, the ones that do a good enough job marketing themselves are the ones who will be looked at for their technical skills.
Re:hmm (Score:4, Insightful)
I honestly never gave a damn about my grades. You can waste time cramming trivia and useless knowledge to ace the tests, but the true measure of your skills is in the mastery of the material, and the ability to put it to work in the real world.
That being said, I almost always experienced more satisfaction from a difficult C than an easy A. Where is the triumph when victory is but a foregone conclusion?
Re:CA$H! (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a general impression on Slashdot among the more ignorant that humanities classes are a joke. I think a lot of it is based on the fact that, yes, introductory humanities classes, aimed at people just out of high school, tend to not be especially difficult. It's more likely that a science or engineering major will take these classes than the upper level ones. Taking an upper level philosophy or linguistics or history course (or even a low-level classics course) would probably disabuse them of the notion.
Also, a lot of the science/engineering types base their opinion of humanities classes not on any firsthand knowledge but rather on third-hand accounts of what humanities classes may be, filtered through jokes, anecdotes, and misinterpretations of what some humanities professor might have said. A lot of it is alien to the engineering major; a humanities class structure is not about being told what is true and retaining it, it's about being given a lot of (oftentimes conflicting) information and synthesizing it.
But I look forward to a day when engineering, science, and humanities majors can put aside their differences, come together in a spirit of unity, and make fun of business majors.
Slackers don't succeed forever (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:hate to break it to ya (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Their CV/resume and interviews - self-marketing
2. Hearing about their work from somewhere else - getting someone else to market you
The entire point of marketing is to show people that you have a product to sell - it's up to them to determine whether or not it's worth buying. No product, no sale. Crappy product, initial sale, but quickly thrown out of the company.
We need to learn that marketing is not a four-letter word.
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:2, Insightful)
They will, however, get better grades with less native ability. Perhaps the arrogance you feel is more often than not resentment?
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:3, Insightful)
I was going to post something along the lines of "Wait until you get your job and they're still looking for theirs." There is a demand for intelligent engineers. How many art history majors have you had help you at Walmart?
$60k after my first year wasn't too bad either. It's not high, and about average. Life isn't easy. How many people during the industrial revolution would have complained that 'it was hard'. Our society expects everything to be handed to them for little or no work.
Re:Spent a few years in Engineering.. (Score:2, Insightful)
There is room for art and different innovative ways to implement a solution to a problem. You just don't get that when learning the basics of engineering. Outside of college as well as some of the advanced classes in engineering give you the opportunity to flex your creative muscles. My goal as an engineer is to design that eloquent solution.
Top five questions to new engineering student (Score:5, Insightful)
And one more thing. A Ti Silver Edition is not a real calculator. It is a toy given to kids who can't do math to keep them busy during math class. I know the 'plus' makes it seem like a real calculator, but it is not. It is most useful for passing notes. Get and HP.
Are All Whining Student Engineers Lousy Students? (Score:4, Insightful)
I remember my engineering program in college. It was loaded with a bunch of student that often complained about the instructors, the program, and the lack of leniency. In every case I can recall, the whiners were the lousy students.
The short of it is that not everyone who gets into a great engineering program is really cut out to be an engineer. [Also note that many who once failed to get into a great engineering program are great engineers now]
The fact is that engineering requires a lot of hard work. Complaining about how other majors have it "so easy" is just ignoring the fact that you're a lousy student that gets a deservedly poor grade. If you aren't getting excellent grades in your courses, my wager is that you either (1) don't have what it takes, or (2) aren't studying enough, or (3) have too many other obligations to study enough.
Yes, some instructors are lousy; some are fabulous. Most institutions let you pick your courses. Choose wisely. If there aren't enough good options, you picked the wrong institution - find a new one. And unless you're currently a top notch student, stop whining about your own failings.
By the way, I don't hire whiners.
Good luck.
it's been done (Score:3, Insightful)
can i get an amen from those reading this comment who think that groundbreaking films like terminator, aliens, terminator ii, titantic, abyss, etc., would be totally different and totally worse if not made by a man with a solid physics/ engineering background?
is terminator ii possible without someone with an awareness of shape memory alloys?
Re:I thought it was due to the lack of women? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:4, Insightful)
We learned to write well as a second nature, we then had to add actual content on top of that. Every elective class I took that required a paper I got a 'Excellent paper' and I didn't even "try". People in the class around me were nitpicking with "Can it be 2 pages double spaced, can I use 14 pt font, etc" to try and get theirs done. By time I had my thoughts on the paper I could easily have twice the 'length' requirements without any additional cheating. And my peers in these courses were people who might one day go on to TEACH this.
Re:I thought it was due to the lack of women? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure if we knew the guy personally it might be "no shock to anyone that he flunked out", but just reading that sentence didn't dumbfound me or cause me to assume that the guy is an idiot. I could picture just about any male saying that in the right context. I mean, what
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:5, Insightful)
That is pretty funny, and accurate, but then again it was hard not to be at times.
When I was studying ChemE I had a journalism student as a room mate. When he wasn't stoned (which wasn't often) he'd talk alot of shit about how superior they were, in their core subjects and in the grand scheme of things, of course when it came time for the assessment exams he'd eat alot of crow when the Engineering school would spank the Journalism school on all portions of the test.
In the end it all doesn't really matter, just being smart has little to do with being good at something.
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:3, Insightful)
Every discipline also has a fair number of students hat aren't talented in the discipline, but really really like it.
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:2, Insightful)
Bullshit. I did graduate work in the humanities when I was younger, I'm doing graduate work in CS now, at the same institution (and the CS department there is stronger than the humanities departments). My GPA in the humanities classes was about 3.5. My GPA in CS is 4.0. Doing quality work in either field is just as hard.
You have a serious case disciplinary provincialism there (as do many, many engineering and science students). Keep in mind that most of the humanities classes you took in college were designed for non-majors. You're judging student quality in those fields the way a colleague in the humanities departments would judge CS based upon the difficulty of an Introduction to General Computing Systems course (where any programming never goes past HelloWorld). To me, you sound exactly like someone in say an MBA program who complains that "making a web browser isn't hard! You just type in an address and show a page?"
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:5, Insightful)
That is the most ridiculous thing I've read on slashdot in a long time. There are good engineering professors at every respectable university grading on a curve. Proving people can fail accomplishes nothing, while teaching them something accomplishes the task; training them to double check their work, learn from their mistakes, and pay attention to what they're doing.
No one remembers everything, and expecting the majority of the population (hate to say it but not all engineering students can be above average intelligence) to be above average is futile.
Re:Bologna. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Engineers are whiners (Score:2, Insightful)
You know what they say, engineering is for people who weren't good enough at math to be physics majors. And physics is for people who weren't good enough at math to be mathematics majors.
For the record (Score:3, Insightful)
For the record my girlfriend is an advertising major. Her classes require her to do the insanely difficult tasks of glueing gummy bears onto paper and cutting up magazines to make ransom notes. Her classes grade on curves and she's usually allowed to redo assignments for higher grades. She does everything the night before it's due.
On the other hand I'm a CS major, my professors usually start the semester off with the statement "I don't believe in grading on a curve." That's often followed by "late work is not accepted." I usually have a non trivial project do every week. I have to start early or I wont have time to finish the projects. I have to try to balance my time between math, science and computer science classes. My girlfriend has told me an innumerable number of times that I work too much and my major is difficult, she's right. But I don't care because I love the work and I love my major.
Re:at least you're learning (Score:4, Insightful)
Computer org was a fantastic class. So was Physics I and II. So were my software engineering classes. And, I'd say the same for numerical methods.
They all taught me something. Computer org inspired me to seek the root of a problem. It gave a view of how computers actually work, something I lacked before the class despite knowing how plow around an OS and assemble the latest PC. It taught me logic, and the difference between a megabit and a megabyte; skills that I've used in every tech job, weather it's development or Unix administration.
Physics I and II taught me the scientific method. This was my most important lesson. That it takes a long time, and lots of hard work to really KNOW something. That if you can't repeat something with relative certainty, it's meaningless.. it's not the real problem. That in order to solve hard things, you need patience, a variety of knowledge to draw from, and resolve. It taught me to RTFM also. It was the first class where I learned the real value of reference material.
Software engineering taught me to draw a damn flowchart and understand the problem and my planned solution before I start coding. 2nd most valuable lesson from college. So many self taught CS people, they stunningly still don't get this.
Numerical methods taught me that across all languages, the tools are largely the same. I learned how to translate a math problem into procedural code. I've seen people that can't devise the code to draw a window in the middle of the screen. It's not something we went over in the FORTRAN, but I'm sure I know how to instantly solve it thanks to the style of thinking instilled in me by that class.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bologna. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm sure there's a kind of hipster peer-pressure thing going on. That's kind of my point.
As for the event in question, here's how it went down.
My girlfriend was by my side when I started my routine. We were alone at the time. Other people wandered in...maybe 5 or 6. They wanted to see what I was talking about. I did my bit on 3 or 4 paintings, thinking my girlfriend was beside me. What she did was take two steps back and watch.
I turned around. There was a lady who was maybe in her 50's with white hair leading the pack. I made eye contact with her and was surprised. I thought I was alone with my SO. The lady smiled and nodded in an encouraging manner that suggested, "Please, do go on!" I apologized, explaining I thought I was alone and didn't wish to disturb their viewing. Wandered back to my SO who was doing her very very best to not laugh. We exited the room. Later on she told me about my miniature fan club and how impressed they were with my insight.
Yeah, it's a small sample and I'm sure it doesn't speak for the whole crowd. But it did teach me a small something about modern art.
For $100k it better teach me a trade (Score:1, Insightful)
For $100k it better teach me a trade! If I am going to take out a mortgage without a house to show for it. I better be damn employable by the end of it.
I agree historically this was not the case. But in the 70s higher education because REQUIRED and you needed a college degree to get what a high school diploma got you in the 40s. Now you need a graduate degree to equal what a college degree used to be. And graduate degrees almost always come with grants/stipends/etc.
For the excessively high prices of undergrad' degrees, you better have a trade when you are done.
You're missing the point (Score:3, Insightful)
It's amazing how much of a conversation you can have with just green, isn't it?
You can see the effort but not the grace. Yellow can be so unforgiving. I think you're missing the fundamental point of modern art. Modern art is technically more accessible because there are no boundaries. Right - a modern painting can take considerably less time than a photo-realistic or impressionistic piece of art, but that's part of the beauty of it.
Modern art doesn't mean the artist had to spend days or months on a painting, and that it could've been done with ease and joy, and not frustration. In essence, it's the freest form of expression and just exploring very basic aspects of vision (color, shapes, etc.).
I think one just needs to open their mind a little, and with modern art, you tend to appreciate beauty of things you take for granted.
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:3, Insightful)
The average CS major probably couldn't be making great art. But neither can the average film student. IMO, the average CS major could get through an undergraduate film curriculum a lot easier than the average film student could get through an undergraduate CS curriculum (and forget about EE).
Disclaimer: I only took one film class in college. And yes, it was an easy A.
On Modern Art (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm not bitter. I LIKE doing this. You have to like it not to go insane. I don't know about other subjects' comparison, but mathematics is harder - so infitelty much harder - that idea-history.
But I really admire liberal arts peolle who actually ARE doing the equivalent quality of work I am doing. It just seems that there are some subjects, containing some people, that are able to get their eduacation for almost no amount of work. But of course that's an empty victory. People in Science departments wouldn't be arrogant if they really enjoyed their work. I'm not arrogant. People who don't know the sheer terror of discrete mathematics also don't know the fantastic thrill of discrete mathematics. It's their loss, not mine.
I, by the way, also compose music in my spare time and I agree that inspiration can be a total bitch. It's just so unpredictable!
And to conclude that little ramble, I'd like to leave a message for our engineering student: Save the drama for yo' mama!
Re:Bologna. (Score:5, Insightful)
Your mind reading abilities are impressive.
Did I ever tell you about the time that I went out to the Met and saw some guy doing his best Steve Martin impression in front of the modern art display? He was clearly babbling about nothing in particular but I was entertained by his display of street theatre. I smiled and nodded when he quoted a line from 'LA Story' and made no effort to move away when I saw that we were taking the same path through the museum. The funny thing is that I never did figure out whether he was trying to make some sort of wry criticism of artists who try to make a virtue out of inaccessibility or if he really was just a drunken lout who had no idea what he was looking at and wanted to be funny for his girlfriend.
But I was reminded of something important:
Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Lots of people have no idea how gravitation works but that doesn't keep them from sticking to the ground.
Re:So what? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bologna. (Score:5, Insightful)
You could have done exactly the same thing with Renaissance art.
Re:I'm on the fence, but there are good points (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone who tells you otherwise is an elitist asshole.
Re:Bologna. (Score:3, Insightful)
That is also the reason I don't use the word "artist" and that I use the word "art" sparingly. It just conjures up an image of those phoney people with army jackets and pins on them. I actually think the modern self-taught computer-geek has more to do with art than those people. There is probably less difference that you think in being a geek sitting in front of his computer hout after hour chasing after a buffer overflow, trying to get a tetris-piece to move or god-knows what and thet geek in the 16th century who spent hour after hour trying to get that smile to look just right. And there certainly is less difference between both the computer geek and the real artist than those phoney hanging-out-in-bars supposedly breathing in "culture" types.
An arist is a person who creates art. Show me the results, not the clothes. I agree with you on about a thousand levels, but I don't agree that you should accuse "art" of BEING this phoney - even modern art.
My museum story (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, from a historic standpoint, Kandinsky is interesting. He "invented" abstract art. But he was nuts. Crazy. Bonkers. No two ways around it. He has what I'd charitably describe as a handful of interesting and challenging pieces. The rest is just a painting by a crazy person. And after you look at a wall of it, you're tired of it. You're tired of the guy. And you're mostly sorry that you paid all that money to look at the splatterings of a madman.
Well, I finally looked around and said very loudly "This stuff is crap. And everybody pretending to like this stuff is only doing it because you're *supposed* to say everything this guy did was genius. It's just the ravings of a madman". Everyone turned around and gave me an evil eye.
Except the guards. They all started clapping.
I quickly high-tailed it out of there before I got pelted with wine and brie, but it's true.
And yes, I'm a computer guy, but I'm also an artist (musical). But you don't have to be an artist to call B.S. on this sort of nonsense. And most art... modern or not, really *is* crap.
Re:Bologna. (Score:1, Insightful)
Art is not engineering, and its ideas are not fixed, which many engineers are uncomfortable with, but its embodies many wonderful and complex ideas that other tools are insufficient to express. It is certainly not rubbish.
Is literature also rubbish? At one point Joyce was "modern". Please, call his work rubbish.
I'm sorry but you're rather ignorant on the subject and should make a better effort to understand it before painting it with such a broad brush. Most people here resent technologically ignorant people commenting on IT. Please do not be the same with other subjects.
The Greats are very few. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nor are the majority of Computer Science students destined to make Great Computer Scientist.
The Greats are very few.
I'm not one of them, neither are you.
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:NO IT DOES NOT (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem is that high school students are not realt qualitied or well enough informed to pick a school. I know I was not. I always thought that I wanted to go to UCLA. I don't know why I thought that but from the 8th grade on I did. Well I finally got there and reallt did not like it. Some very good insturctors and I did learn a lot but I didn't like the big campus and huge size of some of the classes. I transfered out to a small private school. Picking a school is hard.
I was a double major. Enginerring and Pihilosophy. With enginerring, what makes it hard is that you have to be correct so for example your computer program either works or it does not. but with other subjects it is mostly opinion and as long as you have references and some reasoning you can write anything
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
One small problem with your statement - It's BS (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How about hiring them? (Score:2, Insightful)
Do you block Slashdot too?
Clue from other side of hiring desk. (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't give a rat's behind what your grades are. I care if you can think. Yes, I've rejected 4.0 "homework machines" and hired lesser GPA candidates who showed me that they could problem-solve, not just answer homework. And major doesn't matter much either, if you can show you can do the work. One of the best programmers I know has degrees in linguistics, not engineering.
So, here's some advice to all you still in school: 1) Don't confuse getting good grades with getting a good education. 2) Hiring managers are looking for people that solve problems, not cause problems.
Re:One small problem with your statement - It's BS (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure you've heard that "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes...". Well with 1 bazillion liberal arts major's around there are sure to be a few good ones. The vast majority of LA students do not get to work in the field they studied. There are so many LA grads that half the people flipping burgers have one.
So, can you get a good job with Liberal Arts? Of course. Many have and will, but your odds aren't good.
We live in a world of PR flacks (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:We live in a world of PR flacks (Score:4, Insightful)
Bush believes in his convictions. To the point that he admitted God told him to do what he did. I kind of like the willing to change their mind when presented with evidence to the contrary scientific type. Forget the bullheaded charging I am going to get this done my way type.
What might be truly refreshing though is to have a politician who simply looks at the American People and the future of the American People and does what is right by those terms. I would love to learn how it feels to have a President like that.
InnerWeb
Re:Top five questions to new engineering student (Score:2, Insightful)
Mine's pretty good, but I actually prefer and use the previous generation TI-89.
If you obsess on things like having an antique calculator, you might have attention
issues that are incompatible with engineering school.
I love my RPN, stack based calculators - I have quite a collection. I also recognize
the fairly amazing power of my TI-89, considering its battery usage and its cost.
Re:So what? (Score:3, Insightful)
My comment got deleted for some reason? (Score:3, Insightful)
That was a genuine comment from a genuine engineer... not offensive enough to deserve deleting? If anything, my time at Penn State was MORE exciting than my actual 10-year career as an electrical engineer. Every day I come to the same tiny cubicle and stare at the same flickering CRT moving around the same circuits I've seen a thousand times. At least at Penn State I got to flirt with biology coeds (points to wife), but that's not the case on the job. I'm not even sure we have any women here.
Anyway, back on topic:
If you think college is boring, maybe you ought to go on an Internship and discover the boredom of an actual engineering job.
You may find yourself changing careers.
Re:You are Freaken Arrogant! (Score:2, Insightful)
I notice you completely ignored my challenge to prove your earlier claims. I'm still waiting for the logical argument demonstrating the equivalence of "anyone can be" and "everyone is". However, I have the impression I will be waiting for quite a while...
It's been fun! Cheers!