For CS Majors, How Important Is the "Where?"

An anonymous reader writes "I'm a high school senior who is trying to pick a college to attend. I've been accepted by two comparably selective schools. One is a highly regarded tech school, and the other is a highly regarded liberal arts institution. I prefer the liberal arts college, but the computer science program is small, graduating about a dozen students a year. The course load is heavily theory based; programming languages are taught in later years. How much would the tech school vs. non tech school matter? Are CS majors from non-tech school considered inferior? What would an HR department think? What would you think if you were hiring?"

Re:Tough call

[Ethanol-fueled]

Here in America, when people mention "tech schools" they are usually referring to vocational("diploma" mills) or military certification, which are always less prestigious than the 4-year university degree(though military tech school in conjunction with the work experience will easily land you a job).

Somewhat offtopic rant, but as an older college student working full-time, I think it's a shame that G.E.'s are necessary for an accredited degree - as if they assume everybody is fresh outta high school with no life experience. Yeah, yeah, being well-rounded and all that jazz, but why should a somebody have to take humanities 101 when they've been reading junior and senior-level literature for years? Oh, and if sign language counts as a "foreign language", then so should any advanced programming language ;)

HR departments don't care

[BadAnalogyGuy]

First, HR departments don't care where your degree is from.

Once you understand that, you need to understand yourself and your goals. What do you want to do with your degree? Do you want to be a sysadmin (face it, you can go to Devry and do that job competently), programmer, manager, researcher? These are things that should influence your decision. If you want to work in a research department (say PARC or MSR), you will need postgraduate degrees, and the best thing in that case is to choose the tech school. Other than that, you would probably have more fun at the liberal arts college.

You should also think about what kind of college experience you want. Do you want to go to a large school with many opportunities to meet a very diverse set of people? Do you want to go to a small school and be more than just another face in the crowd? Do you want to be involved in fraternities? Which school will give you the school experience you want?

Where are the schools located? Do you want to live in a small college town? How about a big city? Do you want the college to be your primary connection to the world, or do you want to explore outside the gates? How much cold weather can you stand? How much crime can you stand? Which school has the best location for you?

There are a great many factors in choosing a school. Do not limit your choices because you heard that one program is better than another. If you really don't know what you want to do yet, don't make the choice on program reputation alone. If you know you want the best program, then maybe that is the best choice, but in the end the "better" program is not going to prepare you much better than the "worser" program.

Not very

[Narmacil]

I'm a second year ME major at Virginia Tech, and about half of my friends are CS majors. From what I've seen here it does not really matter where you go, but what projects you've worked on and completed. Also whether or not you have a 3.0 or higher GPA. You really have to be careful when you're going for a CS degree straight out of high school, because most people who are 'good' with computers and like video games and web design don't really want to do CS. Of course if you're all into algorithms, complex math and finding the most efficient sorting method, then by all means go for it. When trying to get jobs typically there will be a short technical part of the interview and then a general interview, and as long as you nail the general stuff in your classes you should be Ok for the technical part, and the rest rides on your personality. This of course is based on what I've gleaned from working on our annual engineering expo (job fair). You might want to go with the liberal arts school just so you can get a more rounded education, as smaller departments generally mean alot more individual attention, check into the school's hire rate out of college from their CS department, as that is normally the best indicator of whether or not its a school you want to go to if you're focused on getting a job. Don't forget to enjoy life along the way, if either of the school's campuses are miserable, you'll be living there for the next 4 years :D Good luck with your decision

Re:It's Not Gonna Matter

[aunt edna]

Do what you want to do, what you think will be fun and exciting.

I couldn't agree more -- do what INTERESTS you. Vocational degrees, taken to enhance future prospects rather than because you're interested in the subject, will quite possibly bore the pants off you -- and that's 2, 3 years of your life, so it's just not worth making such a mistake. You have an opportunity to learn full-time something you find interesting -- the chance rarely comes round again. Best of luck!

Re:It's Not Gonna Matter

[gclef]

As someone who's done a bunch of interviewing of candidates over the past 3 or 4 years, I'll second the "it doesn't really matter" vote.

In fact, I'd go a bit farther and argue that the program that's heavier on theory is a better bet (assuming they do eventually get out of the theory and into practice). The theory will give you the grounding in the field, making learning a new language a matter of syntax & the libs, rather than trying to learn whole paradigms.

Re:Tough call

[cnoocy]

if sign language counts as a "foreign language", then so should any advanced programming language ;)

You may want to educate yourself about ASL before you make blanket statements like that. Programming languages aren't anything like it.

True, Experience matters

[jettawu]

I graduated from a smaller university that isn't really known for its computer science or any technical schools. I now work for a mobile phone game company and prior to that, I worked for Amazon. A friend of mine graduated from the same university with the same major and is now working for Lockheed Martin.

youll find your job. experience outdoes almost any college name.

At the bottom line, I agree with the parent, that experience is huge. On top of that, how well you interact with people and "market yourself" to potential employers matters a lot too (the friend who works for Lockheed got his initial position there from a very impressive conversation with a recruiter at a job fair where the recruiter wasn't even really looking for anyone new).

Opportunities

[perlith]

I had the same choice several years ago, choosing between the "best" public liberal arts university in the state and the "best" public science/math/engineering university in the state. Costs were about the same, and both carried the same "prestige". I toured both and went for the latter. Never regret my choice.

I feel fairly confident in saying I had more opportunities presented to me at the "technical" university I chose vs. the liberal arts school. More resources, more programs, more "stuff" to pick and choose from in terms of coursework, extra-curricular activities, coop/internship positions, etc.

It is ultimately going to come down to what you want out of a college degree. As others have said, where you graduate from really doesn't matter. What does matter if what you are able to make of the degree / put down on a resume / spell out in an interview.

Go the way your hearts says

[Anonymous Coward]

I studied Philosophy at a good university, then followed with a marketing MBA. SInce then I have worked in Product Management in the Semiconductor and Software business with no-one being critical about my skills. It really depends on what you are and what you want to do after your degree.

In my Philiosophy courses there were lots of CS and Mathematics students, and they all said that our side of the campus (the liberal arts side) was much more fun that their tech side. For one thing the levels of creativity and debate where much more stimulating - and the approach to discussing and resolving problems brings a lot even in technical environments (in tech reviews I often see different problems and novel solutions that get approval from the tech geeks).

Don't be afraid of going the "boutique" route, you will have more insight, and practical experience gained on the job is worth much more than years sitting in a lecture hall.

Re:Well...

[dkleinsc]

The geek girls are better looking and more interesting too.

Depends

[hey!]

If you can get into a prestigious program it will make a big difference in your first couple of jobs, and it will probably continue to open doors for you over the rest of your career. On the other hand, after you've had a couple of jobs, your accomplishments should be opening doors for you.

You will probably learn more CS, just by osmosis, if you go to a top flight CS program. However, if you are really suited for a career that a CS degree prepares you for, it probably does not matter because you'll learn anyway. There may be educational opportunities at more balanced institutions that you come to appreciate later.

There are two, really important questions you have to ask, especially if you are choosing a school based on a CS program. First, are you absolutely certain that CS is what you want to pursue? It may not be what you expect. Choose an institution that will give you options for a second choice. Second, will you finish a degree in the institution you have chosen, whether or not it is a CS degree?

In the end, if you are planning a career that requires a CS degree, it's more important that you have a degree than a CS degree; it's more important that you have a CS degree at all than you have one from a prestigious program.

The vocational value of a CS degree from a prestigious program marginal, especially if you know how to write a good application letter and give a good interview. The educational value of a prestigious degree is marginal, if you have a talent and interest for the field. It's not that these things aren't useful, it's that they're mainly useful if you don't have personal qualities that would even the playing field if you went to a less prestigious place. The irony is that in the words of the song, if you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere. And you will. And sometimes you can't make it there for reasons that have nothing to do with your talent.

In the end, the most important thing is that you get the degree. If you come from a family that doesn't have a lot of money or has some other kind of instability that means you don't have bottomless support for your education, it's probably a bad idea to go to an expensive program famous for its pressure cooker atmosphere.

Anybody can have a bad quarter (which is a bad year if the quarter is the last half of an academic quarter and the first half of the next). It could be an existential crisis, or it could be a physical health issue, or it can be an unexpected financial problem. If you don't have a family support cushion, and you don't have any financial slack, you can be screwed. Don't forget that sometimes institutions are more generous with freshman financial aid packages to attract the students they want.

I'm not discouraging your from applying or going to a prestigious program. I just want you to consider that the value of prestige has its limits, and that practical matters like cost can leave you in debt without any offsetting prestige. In the end the best advice is to choose a school you think you will be most happy at, and you'll get the most out of it. Don't sacrifice anything for prestige. Ultimately the only prestige that is worthwhile is the prestige you earn through your own distinctive accomplishments.

Re:OH NOES!

[Nursie]

Switch to a european (specifically British) University.

We don't do a single thing that's not related to the course. My CS degree was three years of CS theory and practice along with software engineering. Perfect.

Also you're legally allowed a beer here.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[metlin]

Indeed.

Secondly, pedigree matters. No matter what people say, it is very important, especially down the line if you wish to go to business school, or pursue higher education.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[Anonymous Coward]

I have taught at both types of school, and anywhere you go there are advantages and disadvantagesto being a student in each-of course, that much is obvious. In part, you have to make a decision as to how hard you want to work the first two years, as in any tech field there are courses the first two years used cold bloodedly to separate the wanna be's from the can do's. I teach physics, and in both universities I've taught at there were explicit agreements with the engineering school, etc., about how high the standards they wanted, and if you want top rating as a school this can get brutal, and a lot of capable students are directed to take other degrees. You really have to be a bit better in terms of intellectual ability to excel grade wise in a better school. So, you might want to ask one of the school's advisors about their standards, what their drop out rate is, etc.

One of the things students do not understand, probably not even when they graduate, is that the primary commodity of a college education is to teach you to be self learning. But, there are ways of thinking that are more productive than others, and these you may only be able to get at a high ranked tech school: do you understand now why an MIT or a Caltech or a University of Chicago is more likely to have students who win Nobel prizes later in their career? You can find truly gifted faculty who are (perhaps) more interested in you personally (simply due to small class size, if nothing else) in a liberal arts school, but absolutely do not count on it. The liberal arts school simply may not offer the skill set you want-and you probably aren't at the point where you even understand what that skill set is.

You should also be aware, that you may have wider job choices due to more active recruiting at the "high ranked tech school". If you were hiring, would you rather send a recruiter to a school with 6 possible candidates or the school with 60 or 100 possible candidates? Recruiting is expensive, and so tends to be local: what is the job market like in the hometown of both schools? The top tier universities get national recruiting.

Finally, a lot of your learning will be from interacting with other students, and in a large tech school you may be more likely to find congenial spirits to do homework with, etc. Technology transfer is one of the great mysteries and has been for the last century, and a lot of it comes from simply "being around". Your girlfriend probably isn't going to be able to help you understand some fine point of Calc III or help you understand the reasons for using a particular stacks and buffers algorithm for a particular coding problem. But a congenial classmate might. In computer science, you will find people with low social skills in either type of school, but do you want that to be one of 6 or 3 of 60 of your peers? There is also the old boy network after you graduate, which if you have a decent resume can facilitate job changes in later years.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[FooAtWFU]

I say to go for the liberal arts, but if you do, definitely go for summer internships. I have a BS in CS from a decent-but-small liberal-artsy university (Wake Forest University), and it's all well and good, but I landed my first job out from school largely because of internships with IBM, as well as ample web development work on the side during the school year. (Also, the money came in handy paying for school.)

Grandparent is right in that you need to teach yourself lots of stuff at the liberal arts school. Do it. Play around with things and go the extra mile to get things programmed right and polished, not just right-enough-for-the-assignment. Structure things well, don't use global variables, validate input, pull out all the stops. This is practice for the real world.

And don't forget to take advantage of the liberal arts while you're there. Try to walk away with a minor in something interesting that you love, like Art or Music or whatever. You'll never get the same sort of chance to do these things again. (You'll get chances, mind you - I'm taking harp lessons alternate Wednesdays - but it's not the same. I'm glad for the art minor, though. :)

Re:So are horrible programmers.

[RingDev]

Someone who shows up at college with no programming experience is likely not going to be a GREAT programmer. It's too late. They're competing against people who have been programming for 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years. It's too much of a head start.

You're comparing apples to oranges there. Becoming a great programmer is an independent challenge. Other peoples' skill set has no bearing on your skill as a programmer. Your education is not a competition to be won over other students.

I have seen some really solid programmer come out of colleges with slim to nil experience coding prior to enrolling. Were they "great" programmers right out of college? Nah, they were solid though, good enough that I wouldn't hesitate to hire any of them for a junior/mid-level coding position. Given 5 years of work experience, I am confidant that they will all either turn out to be top notch developers, or become equally skilled in other fields.

-Rick

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[superflippy]

Also, take a look at the required classes outside your major at both schools. My husband, a physics major, transferred from a small liberal arts college to a large state university. The small school had a reasonable number of non-physics classes required of physics majors, enough so he could take classes that just interested him or that were relevant to his major but not required into his schedule.

The state university had a ridiculous number of required classes outside his major. They prop up a lot of the departments that would otherwise have low enrollment by making their classes required. As a result, he transferred as a senior and it still took him 2 years to graduate.

So while it can be good to have some variety in your coursework, make sure the school's requirements won't interfere with your plan.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[sporkmonger]

If you manage to get to the interview stage, it really doesn't matter whether you went to a technical school or a liberal arts school. You'll have to stand on your own personal merits, not your school's.

But in order to get to the interview stage, you have to make your resume stand out. And I'm a lot more likely to take notice of someone with a resume that says they went to MIT or Stanford or RIT (because I'm biased - it's where I went). Any time you have a job posted on Dice/Monster/CareerBuilder you're looking at at least 200 resumes, often more. A stack like that makes you want to filter stuff quickly, and at least for the recently-graduated types, education is the simplest filter.

So to answer the original poster's question, yes, a technical school is the preferred way of becoming gainfully employed. That said, I'll pick someone with a degree from the liberal arts school who has produced and maintained a few open source projects over someone with a degree from a technical school who hasn't. Open source experience is by far the most effective way to prove competence to a potential employer - if they're interested in you, they can see your code, and you have something to back up the claims your resume makes. And if that weren't enough, it gives you a chance to get to know people you might not have met otherwise. IE, open source work is a form of networking. This is important, because almost every hiring decision I've ever been involved with has started with "Who do you know that would be a good fit for this position?" Only if everyone on the team draws a completely blank does Dice/Monster/CareerBuilder get involved. So, start getting to know people.

One word: Internship

[Chris Snook]

Think of your education like a computer. You can buy computers, even somewhat customized ones, from OEMs, with everything integrated at the factory. The components have been tested to work with each other fairly well, and as long as you're comfortable with their options, things will generally work well, or be supported if they don't. The tradeoff is that you won't have all the options you might otherwise have, unless you add in extra components which aren't supported, in which case you might have been better off just putting one together yourself.

Think of the liberal arts program as a barebones system, that you need to complete on your own with more applied experience, like an internship. In the long term, the theory they teach there is much more important than tools like programming languages, since those skills are mostly picked up on the job, and often not carried from one job to the next. On the other hand, the big engineering program probably has much better connections to industry and will get your career up and running more easily, just as an OEM computer works as soon as you turn it on.

If you choose the liberal arts program, you will need to augment it somehow with practical experience, or go to grad school at a big engineering program and get it there. If you want to take a DIY approach to your career, go to the liberal arts school and seek out internships to get experience. If you just want to focus on the tech, go to the big school which probably has a better equipped career center for the skills you'll be developing.

Re:Maybe a story will help.

[DieByWire]

Woah woah woah. Why is the liberal arts major a girl?

Two X chromosones.

Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place

[Anonymous Coward]

That and he would have a better chance of getting laid in a tech school where most are geeks, while he would get labeled as a geek in a lib. arts school where he says only about a dozen CS students graduate!

Re:No it isn't!

[Mr. Slippery]

By "narrow technical" skill I mean computer science.

Computer science is in no way narrow. In its breadth it touches not just on several fields of mathematics, but also on engineering practice, psychology, biology, linguistics, electronics, and literary composition.

Nor is it merely a skill. It is an entire body of knowledge.

If by "narrow technical skill" you meant computer science, you either do not understand computer science at all, or you lack the skills to express yourself accurately using the English language - one of the primary requirements for success as a software developer. Perhaps more liberal arts classes would have helped.

So much software sucks very badly because too many people are ill educated in the Software Engineering side of it. Not because not enough people study the history of war on the side.

Studying Sun Tzu will teach much about the organization of large projects. Think that's not relevant to software engineering? (For instance, "Too frequent rewards signify that the enemy is at the end of his resources; too many punishments betray a condition of dire distress." Anyone live through a project like this?)

If you want to be conscious of security issues when designing and implementing your software - and I hope you do - studying the history of war becomes even more important.