For CS Majors, How Important Is the "Where?" 991
An anonymous reader writes "I'm a high school senior who is trying to pick a college to attend. I've been accepted by two comparably selective schools. One is a highly regarded tech school, and the other is a highly regarded liberal arts institution. I prefer the liberal arts college, but the computer science program is small, graduating about a dozen students a year. The course load is heavily theory based; programming languages are taught in later years.
How much would the tech school vs. non tech school matter? Are CS majors from non-tech school considered inferior? What would an HR department think? What would you think if you were hiring?"
You wanna know what I'm thinking? (Score:0, Interesting)
-Jimi Hendrix
On Choosing a Graduate School: A Dialogue (Score:2, Interesting)
What a co-incidence? I was just reading On Choosing a Graduate School: A Dialogue [cosmicvariance.com]....
Re:It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:4, Interesting)
Value of a BA (Score:3, Interesting)
It's getting so that any bachelor's degree is about worthless except as a stepping stone to a master's degree, mainly thanks to absurd grade inflation. If you show up to class 90% of the time and are sober, you'll get straight A's in most bachelor's programs these days (if you don't show up or aren't sober, you'll only get a B+). So I advise going to whatever school has the most interesting non-CS bachelor's program that you're interested in just for fun and then spend another year and a half or two getting an MS in CS from a serious CS school. The difference in starting salaries and opportunities between an MS and a BS make this more than worthwhile. I advise this as someone who has a BA in non-CS from a state school and an MS in IT from a prestigious private school - salaries and opportunities are a LOT better with an MS.
Re:It's Not Gonna Matter (Score:3, Interesting)
Right now, the current generation (and their parents) are being taught to buy into the "big names," regardless of any other factors. The rankings craze is at least partially to blame, and MIT arguably markets itself better than Apple (no small feat!)
In reality, a college education is almost entirely what you make of it. The legacy-admitted grade-inflated Ivy grad might get the better job straight out of school, but the hardworking state-school grad will almost certainly end up being more successful in the long run, once he's had a chance to prove himself.
considered inferior? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are CS majors considered inferior? Yes.
Once you've joined a company, worked there for a while, you too will have the same low opinion of graduates. That will be doubly true of the graduates who think they know everything and should be hired as principal engineers immediately.
A good attitude is the best thing to have, as an inexperienced job-seeker (to be), you only need 2 things: enthusiasm and a willingness to learn, and good communication ability.
Umm.. The 3 things you need are enthusiasm, willingness to learn, good communication ability and some technical skills of any sort.
Bu**er. The 4 things you need are... I'll start again. Fortunately you no longer need a fanatical devotion to Bill Gates.
More advice from someone that hires programmers (Score:3, Interesting)
So although I may give a cursory glance at your past, your school is not going to be particularly interesting to me. I might be impressed if DURING college you've done done some interesting things, like say functional/logic programming, neural nets, cluster programming, and so on, the stuff you don't typically encounter in normal boring programming.
But in the end, you write code for a living. So your REAL resume is far more about your code than it is about your degree.
You learn a LOT more about a programmer by simply asking them to send you 5,000 lines of their best code than you will from a resume.
If you can't put together 5,000 lines of stuff only you wrote at all, or you can't because "I wrote it at the company and they won't let me" that says a lot too (mostly that you don't do any programming at all outside of work, but also that perhaps you don't have any experience working in an enlightened programming culture).
This is why experience on an Open Source project is so valuable. It's a repository you can point to and say "I wrote that" and I can look at the repository logs and verify it.
I get to see what your coding is like. Are you clean, do you comment and document well, do you just cut and paste a lot, are you a leader or a plodder (both of which can be useful).
An Open Source project is job experience with unlimited disclosure.
I don't care if you went to MIT and did computation physics of compressible fluids. If the other guy can show me 10k of well built, maintainable and innovative code, he wins.
Unless he's an asshole to work with. But then the job is his to lose at that point, not yours to win.
Re:Well... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:OH NOES! (Score:2, Interesting)
My take (Score:3, Interesting)
You won't regret liberal arts (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:DIY: Good programmers are largely self-taught. (Score:2, Interesting)
This is completely untrue. Few good programmers are self taught, and few self taught programmers are any good at all. The nature of software is that you have to go on learning - fast - all your career, but without basic engineering discipline and an understanding of such things as algorithms and complexity you're nowhere.
In response to the original poster, the people who read your CVs - people like me - will pay a lot of attention to what institution you went to, and what class of degree you were awarded. It doesn't have to be computer science, though. On the whole I'd score a first in physics, maths or philosophy above a 2.1 in computer science.
Re:depends... (Score:5, Interesting)
I graduated with a CS degree from a Liberal Arts college. Perhaps at a tech school you are surrounded by people who know about the subjects you wish to learn about. The key to a Liberal Arts college is surrounding yourself with a variety of people. You're going to learn a lot more partying with a history or philosophy major than you are partying with another programmer.
Also, you are forced to take classes you wouldn't have wanted to, and *gasp* you'll actually learn about new things! Perhaps when you're 40, you'll decide that you don't want to be a programmer anymore. Instead, you want to become a writer, or open your own restaurant. You're going to have a wider variety of knowledge and contacts in a wider variety of fields if you went to a Liberal Arts college.
Admittedly, I've not tried for a job at Google or Sun. However, I've had no trouble finding good work, and interviewers are usually impressed by the college I graduated from.
Re:OH NOES! (Score:3, Interesting)
where people have labeled you funny, you make a good point. But the point you make is why I'd encourage him to go. Look, unless you're going to MIT, I'd say stay away from tech schools all together and find a well balanced school that offers a decent program in computer science, CIS, telecom, whatever. I made the mistake of going to a tech school where they give you chump work for academics, arts, etc just to pass you by and intentionally do not challenge you in these realms.
We're talking about guys who are lucky they've ever had a girlfriend that wasn't online. Guys that couldn't talk to you about anything in the world other than technology, and were extremely masturbatory in their approaches to coming up with solutions for various assignments, projects, etc. In short, the kids only saw one thing, technology/code. That's it. I've found that you show me a person who knows his shit in technology, but also has a bit of a well rounded education on top of that focus, and he/she will generally be more innovative and more productive individual.
The work force isn't all about how much crap you know either. It's bureaucracy, it's politics, it's social skills. And hanging around a majority of people, and taking courses with people who's closest thing to a girlfriend is their hairy palms, or some avatar in Second Life or WoW, who can't for the life of them understand the simplest of pieces of art, who know jack shit about history, politics, psychology, relationships, parents, friendship, you name it, simply isn't healthy IMO.
Keep your focus, but learn to branch out and be in an environment that allows you to branch out.
Re:OH NOES! (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is that you'll get much more respect from those below you if you actually have a technical background. Leaders with business degrees and nothing else are typically scorned upon by those who've invested time in significantly difficult fields. Former president of Goldman Sachs and current CEO of Merrill Lynch John Thain [wikipedia.org] holds a Bachelor's in Electrical Engineering from MIT and an MBA from Harvard. David Shaw [deshaw.com] of D.E. Shaw & Co. has a PhD in Computer Science from Stanford. These are people who run financial companies and they have technical backgrounds. I think it's much harder to run a technology company with something like a BA in business and than an MBA from some 2nd or 3rd tier school.
Re:No it isn't! (Score:5, Interesting)
There are significant differences between the US and Europe, if you haven't noticed...Until recently, the United States appreciated well rounded individuals with wide expertise and the ability to do multiple kinds of jobs over the European preference for specialists. While this preference has changed in recent years, American universities still teach to those old preferences. So, most American universities would say the point of attending is getting a "well rounded" education. Besides, seeking to limit yourself so narrowly means you are more heavily affected when a downturn occurs in your field of specialization.
Whilst being articulate helps, you've clearly never hired a software engineer. Some narrow technical skill is EXACTLY what will get you the big money in software, and what will get you hired over and over.
Not everyone who goes into computer science wants to be a programmer.
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:3, Interesting)
First, there are some folks who will stay up to 5 AM (or pull an "all-nighter") to finish problem sets, but you do not have to be one of them. For the vast majority of cases, this is not necessary unless you procrastinate too much in starting assignments. (BTW, I'm naturally a procrastinator, and even so the late-night work was an exception rather than the rule). In the rare case where you just don't have the time to finish the assignment without staying up all night, my recommendation is that usually you're better off just getting a good night's sleep. Since the situation is rare, if you don't complete a problem or two on a given assignment, it's not going to significantly impact your grades. And being rested means you'll learn in class the next day, rather than be fighting the urge to sleep.
Regarding the "socially maladapted" folks at top schools. There are some for sure. There are also plenty of socially normal people too. You can choose which you want to hang out with. If nothing else, it'll give you some good stories about the handful of really weird folks you see around campus.
The Carnegie Mellon ECE program was very flexible for which courses you take, both in regards to technical courses, and to a slightly lesser extent for humanities requirements. The upside to this freedom is you can take courses you are interested in. The downside is that you may regret your choices later if you don't make yourself choose a sufficient variety. Overall though I think it's a great program, and more flexible than some other schools' programs, especially with respect to freedom to choose your technical courses. Check out your prospective schools' programs carefully.
I do not feel like I ended up "hollow" as a result of my chosen school or program - quite the opposite. Actually the school tries to encourage you to broaden your horizons - for example the CS majors (but not the ECE majors) are required to have a minor or double major outside their field. And like I mentioned, the ECE program is very flexible, and it's usually not hard to get into courses outside your major, unless it's one of the very most popular courses (Acting for Non-majors was the only course I was ever unable to get into, which was because *everyone* wanted to get into it).
I do agree with the parent post that the "brand" matters from your college. If people know your school is good, they tend to assume you know your stuff because the school weeds out the incompetent. So interviews tend to focus more on making sure you'll fit in than grilling you technically. Those from less-known schools face greater scrutiny - you have to work harder to convince someone of your merits.
As others here on Slashdot have noted, the caliber of your classmates matters a lot too. Good classmates help keep your standards high, help you learn from each other better, and make the connections and friendships you forge at college more valuable in advancing your career.
The other advantage to a well-regarded technical school, versus a liberal arts one, is that you're likely to get more technical companies recruiting on-campus for technical majors. This will likely help your internship and job searches.
In the end, though, pick whichever one you think is going to give you the better overall experience. You're only an undergrad once
Why not do BOTH? (Score:4, Interesting)
I got my undergraduate degree from a liberal arts college (CS major, math minor), but then, after a small hiatus, received an MS from a well-known technical school.
A few random observations from a veteran of industry:
Good luck!
Why knock yourself out? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Liberal Arts Has Its Place (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you want to be defined by your job? Is a job going to be the most important part of your life?If your life is going to be centered on getting and keeping really good jobs, then the obvious choice is a tech school.
Do you want a good job to pay the bills while you do other things, pursue other hobbies, travel, make music, paint, etc? Then you should be headed for a liberal arts school.
My bias is towards trying to get the most out of every part of life, not just my job, but I try not to judge career oriented people too harshly.
Re:HR departments don't care (Score:1, Interesting)
Fun? Really you're paying anywhere from 40-100k+ to have fun? sit home you can do it for cheaper. I'm not saying you shouldn't have fun but this is a major investment in you and your future. Most people can sit at home with a book and learn whatever they want if they have half a brain. College is about a piece of paper and network of friends who will enhance your career opportunities.
If you're looking for an MBA pick go for the top 3 in the country or the top regional one. If you want a job in technology pick one of the top 5 tech schools for your major. You will meet people with interests outside of your own anywhere you go. You will be exposed to different cultures and beliefs anywhere you pick.
I've been a hiring manager in several companies. I do rely on recruiters and sourcers to filter down the number of resumes I have to look at. Your education will remain important for far longer than most people want to acknowledge. I don't have time to get to know you before I filtered who I could meet. That's unfortunate but true. You might end up being a better programmer but you will have to work much harder after you graduate to prove it.
I did not go to a top tier school. To be frank I got lucky that my network of friends included people who did and they were able to pull me past the HR gates.
Think of it this way. A lot of people are vested in the belief that their top tier education made them better. They put money into it. They pay off debt every year that reminds them of that. Whether it really did make them better ceases to matter. They will prefer people who payed the same dues they did.
Re:Getting a broad-based education at a tech schoo (Score:3, Interesting)